Time for a confession, I have never in my life had success attempting to play Braids, Cabal Minion. I'm looking to add Smokestack to my cube to make the effect more redundant, but I still don't know if that's the right call, or if removing Braids is a better plan.
I'm aware of how to break the symmetry on Smokestack but I feel it's hard to judge when you should sacrifice the Smokestack itself to end the effect, which kinds of decks want these cards mostly, and how you should build a deck to take advantage of these effects. I'm hoping the discussion in this thread will help shed some light on how to play with these cards, and at what size people think these effects should be run.
Both of the effects hit your opponent before they hit you, and they can both sacrifice themselves if the effect needs to stop. They already break their own symmetry.
Token producers, cards that return from the graveyard, cards you want in the graveyard, etc... there are lots of ways to break the effect. Try combining either with Crucible or Bloodghast or persist/undying.
I think Braids is easily one of the best black cards in the entire cube.
Take a look at the black section in my cube if you want to see a cube dedicated to making Staxx effects work. I love the archetype, I think black needs some help, and these cards really do a great job of making black a fun color to play.
You have to look outside the obvious cards in order to make it work. Here are some things I've found while trying to support the archetype
- Obviously, overload on creatures that recur themselves. This includes Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, and definitely Geralf's Messenger. I don't run Reassembling Skeleton because the mana investment is too great, but the other three are quality. Don't overlook messenger
- Pair with other mana denial cards. Sinkhole is a great step on the way to Braids, so you're already ahead, and Smallpox does wonderful things in a deck prepared to abuse it. Don't forget about the colorless cards though, you can do really good things with Crucible of Worlds and Strip Mine, Wasteland, or even just a fetchland. with Crucible out and a Fetch in your yard, Braids doesn't do anything but cost you your land drop every turn. Oh, and don't forget Winter Orb, Tangle Wire and Nether Void as other good mana denial pieces.
- Play colored acceleration. Dark Ritual is pretty standard, but even if you're unpowered play Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond. Staxx loves to get the 4 mana heavy hitters down as early as possible, and in a cube where everyone else gets to play Mind Stone and friends, you want Staxx to be able to play the heavy black cards like Geralf's Messenger and Necropotence early as well.
- Play the 2 for 1 creatures. Liliana's Specter, Pilgrim's Eye, and Bone Shredder don't look all that impressive, but when you've got a symmetrical stax effect out, they really help. I particularly like sacrificing Bone Shredder to a staxx effect without paying echo.
I'm sure there's more than that, but I'm just trying to give you a general idea of what we did to make black a good staxx color in my cube. We really shaved all of the midrange black cards to do it, so there's no Bloodgift Demon and friends, and I push Discard a little harder than some do (I actually run Inquisition of Kozilek, and I'm considering Despise or Raven's Crime). This deck plays really well as a R/B deck, as well as a G/B deck, so you can do some fun things if you build black appropriately.
Smokestack is one of my all time favorite cards. I've been trying to include it in as many decks as possible since it was first printed. When I draft cube and see the card early, I almost always pick it up and try to build my deck around it.
Everything JeffD said was fantastic advice. Those are the sort of decks you want to play Stax and Braids in. My favorite Stax decks tend to be BG midrange builds.
Braids is a card I totally didn't understand at first...then I played it & everything made sense. Getting ahead on the board or playing cards that give you multiple permanents is pretty awesome. Nothing like dropping Braids ahead of the curve & watch your opponent choke on mana. I like land destruction & Braids often feels like a LD card.
My friend was running a deck tonight with Smokestack, Sun Titan, Rancor, Symbol Status, and Life from the Loam. So many easy ways to break symmetry or just get far enough ahead to make it insane.
I feel it's hard to judge when you should sacrifice the Smokestack itself to end the effect
When one of the following happens:
1. It advantages your opponent more than you to keep it in play, or
2. Your opponent runs out of mana
I love them and think that they are sacrosanct. In addition to Bitterblossom and Bloodghast, the effect plays very nicely with several green cards, most notably Life from the Loam, Rancor, Yavimaya Elder and Kitchen Finks.
Cards like this are also why you should load your cube up with tutors like Imperial Seal.
I think Smokestack, while potentially more powerful (harder to kill, can ramp up, etc), is harder to include into decks than Braids, Cabal Minion. She goes into almost any black aggro deck. If your board position is better than your opponent's on turn four, just drop her and watch your opponnent squirm. Will he sacrifice a creature? Then there is one fewer blocker for your early guys. Will he sacrifice a mana source (often a land, sometimes a manafact)? Then he is giving up the chance to cast bigger creatures/spells to turn the game around. You on the other hand are playing an aggro deck that doesn't need that much mana and can just sacrifice lands while beating down.
Smokestacks is pretty decent by itself, much like Tangle Wire it is already asymmetrical. My friend who is better at Magic than myself swears by playing Smokestacks in every cube deck.
Building a Smokestacks deck takes practice. After playing the crap out of it last week it has quickly become one of my favorite cube cards. For those who don't understand how to build a stax deck there are a few important pieces:
Tutors
If you're a dedicated stax deck, you have to cast stax as early as possible. Even if you open with stax the tutors will help you get the best card for the job even when the mana is tight (and it's going to be). Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Wordly Tutor, Enlightened Tutor.
Reanimation Spells
Usually cheap and the yard will be plenty full after stax. If you don't know, Animate Dead and the creature are two permanents. Animate Dead, Reanimate, Necromancy, Profane Command.
These cards are amazing. In my experience, they are in the top 10 most undervalued Cube cards by the average Magic player. If Wizards wanted to make these cards more fair, they would have made it so that you cannot sac them to themselves.
I will say that these cards can be pretty bad in certain matchups though... But they are fantastic about 80% of the time, and they are the kind of card that can just win the game by themselves.
These cards are amazing. In my experience, they are in the top 10 most undervalued Cube cards by the average Magic player. If Wizards wanted to make these cards more fair, they would have made it so that you cannot sac them to themselves.
So true. Many MODO cubers disregard it as a card in draft. Here is Sam Black tearing it up with both Braids and Stax.
I think stax effects work better with fast-mana and/or powered situations. In an unpowered, rather fair-er environment, I haven't seen too much success with this archetype. I am on the fence about cutting such cards.
Braids is in ways more applicable to the cube, as she's constant removal in an aggressive color. In my experience with stacks in my small cube, it was relevant once in that it took down a threat. Of course, I needed a draft where I could have built around it. Other times it sits in packs and nobody plays it. It's iconic and has great synergy but at the same time I debate its total value a lot.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I have not put in Stax in my cube, but Braids has always been a pain to sit in front of. Starting the turn it comes into play you are forced to sacrifice a blocker or hinder your mana, making your hand prety useless in the process. It has been great in multiplayer as well. The great thing about her is that you don't need to build around her, just drop her unxpectedly and watch your opponents squirm while you do your evil laugh. Combining with any recursion like Loam or Crucible makes it downright nasty.
Yeah I never understood people's obsession with Braids until I gave her a go couple of nights back. Out of about 7 rounds of play I think 4 were won off the back of a Braids when the opponent has to sac to nothingness. The wonders of a 40-card deck is that casting her off a grim monolith or other accel is pretty commonplace even without tutors.
Smokestack however always feels a bit too slow for me. The effect is cummulative what makes it powerfull, but i always have the idea that the time I spend casting it isn't worth the 3 turns i have to wait for finaly doing something.
Stax is a build around me card more than Braids is. Mana rocks and fast mana (not just Moxen but also Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb) help power stax out. Even playing turn 4 is fine as long as you're dumping multiple permanents on board per actual card (ex: lingering souls). When stax is at 2 and you're only sacrificing 0-1 mana sources and 1-2 tokens, your opponent will get behind every time.
I've never seen someone correctly draft black aggro before so I've been drafting it over and over until I perfect it. Not bad because I 3-0'd the M13 draft with a near monoblack exalted deck (didn't face any Cower in Fears, Arc Lightning, nor Chandra's Fury! Woot).
I just ordered a smokestack to put in my cube after watching the video someone linked a bit ago with LSV's red stax draft. I've had Braids in for a while, and have seen some good stuff happen with her in Black control lists, so I'm excited to see if I can get some more Stax control stuff going.
I will almost always take stax if I have a token-producing walker or Kjeldoran Outpost. Braids is no longer in my cube though because she's not as versatile. She's good, but my particular group never picked her, so she got cut.
i love stax. If I am playing Black, I ALWAYS grab Braids.
If you do any multiplayer, she gets even more insane. I find it not too overly difficult to build around a stax deck, and even having a semi fair board is never a big deal.
The best abuse for stax is some sort of reanimation, and I have really enjoyed these guys with token producers or with cards that bring other cards out of the GY, such as Geth, lord of the Vault. With Geth and stax effect, you can keep saccing the same creature over and over and mill their deck till you find a better critter!
My suggestion for anyone new to this strategy and on the fence, Try something like Braids and Reassembling skeleton - or another reoccurring permanent(for starters) and mix it up with some removal. Seeing you opponent slowly gas out as you keep recasting this permanent over and over as you beat them to a pulp, at your will!, is awesome.
I just got my Smokestack in the mail today, now I just have to wait for the next time we cube and seed it into the packs so I can see it in action. I hope it works.
I'm aware of how to break the symmetry on Smokestack but I feel it's hard to judge when you should sacrifice the Smokestack itself to end the effect, which kinds of decks want these cards mostly, and how you should build a deck to take advantage of these effects. I'm hoping the discussion in this thread will help shed some light on how to play with these cards, and at what size people think these effects should be run.
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Both of the effects hit your opponent before they hit you, and they can both sacrifice themselves if the effect needs to stop. They already break their own symmetry.
Token producers, cards that return from the graveyard, cards you want in the graveyard, etc... there are lots of ways to break the effect. Try combining either with Crucible or Bloodghast or persist/undying.
I think Braids is easily one of the best black cards in the entire cube.
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You have to look outside the obvious cards in order to make it work. Here are some things I've found while trying to support the archetype
- Obviously, overload on creatures that recur themselves. This includes Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, and definitely Geralf's Messenger. I don't run Reassembling Skeleton because the mana investment is too great, but the other three are quality. Don't overlook messenger
- Pair with other mana denial cards. Sinkhole is a great step on the way to Braids, so you're already ahead, and Smallpox does wonderful things in a deck prepared to abuse it. Don't forget about the colorless cards though, you can do really good things with Crucible of Worlds and Strip Mine, Wasteland, or even just a fetchland. with Crucible out and a Fetch in your yard, Braids doesn't do anything but cost you your land drop every turn. Oh, and don't forget Winter Orb, Tangle Wire and Nether Void as other good mana denial pieces.
- Play colored acceleration. Dark Ritual is pretty standard, but even if you're unpowered play Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond. Staxx loves to get the 4 mana heavy hitters down as early as possible, and in a cube where everyone else gets to play Mind Stone and friends, you want Staxx to be able to play the heavy black cards like Geralf's Messenger and Necropotence early as well.
- Play the 2 for 1 creatures. Liliana's Specter, Pilgrim's Eye, and Bone Shredder don't look all that impressive, but when you've got a symmetrical stax effect out, they really help. I particularly like sacrificing Bone Shredder to a staxx effect without paying echo.
I'm sure there's more than that, but I'm just trying to give you a general idea of what we did to make black a good staxx color in my cube. We really shaved all of the midrange black cards to do it, so there's no Bloodgift Demon and friends, and I push Discard a little harder than some do (I actually run Inquisition of Kozilek, and I'm considering Despise or Raven's Crime). This deck plays really well as a R/B deck, as well as a G/B deck, so you can do some fun things if you build black appropriately.
Hope that helps.
J
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Everything JeffD said was fantastic advice. Those are the sort of decks you want to play Stax and Braids in. My favorite Stax decks tend to be BG midrange builds.
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Braids is a card I totally didn't understand at first...then I played it & everything made sense. Getting ahead on the board or playing cards that give you multiple permanents is pretty awesome. Nothing like dropping Braids ahead of the curve & watch your opponent choke on mana. I like land destruction & Braids often feels like a LD card.
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When one of the following happens:
1. It advantages your opponent more than you to keep it in play, or
2. Your opponent runs out of mana
I love them and think that they are sacrosanct. In addition to Bitterblossom and Bloodghast, the effect plays very nicely with several green cards, most notably Life from the Loam, Rancor, Yavimaya Elder and Kitchen Finks.
Cards like this are also why you should load your cube up with tutors like Imperial Seal.
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Building a Smokestacks deck takes practice. After playing the crap out of it last week it has quickly become one of my favorite cube cards. For those who don't understand how to build a stax deck there are a few important pieces:
Mana Accel
Specifically ramp that is also a permanent. Stax is best played before turn 4. Mindstone, Birds of Paradise, Mana Vault.
Token Producters
They're obviously the easiest way to get ahead in the permanent race. Bitterblossom, Deranged Hermit, Lingering Souls, Spectral Processions, Meloku, Garruk Wildspeaker, Garruk Relentless.
Recurring Permanents
Permanents that you can sac over and over are built for stax. Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Kitchen Finks, Glen Elendra Archmage, Geralf's Messenger, Rancor, Sun Titan, Strangleroot Geist.
Graveyard Recurrence
Sacrificing permanents with nasty etb effects just to grab them again is usually really nasty. Regrowth, Eternal Witness, Yawgmoth's Will, Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam.
Tutors
If you're a dedicated stax deck, you have to cast stax as early as possible. Even if you open with stax the tutors will help you get the best card for the job even when the mana is tight (and it's going to be). Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Wordly Tutor, Enlightened Tutor.
Reanimation Spells
Usually cheap and the yard will be plenty full after stax. If you don't know, Animate Dead and the creature are two permanents. Animate Dead, Reanimate, Necromancy, Profane Command.
Land Denial
Stax is set on making your opponent choose between his nonland permanents or his lands. Make sure he doesn't get that choice. Wasteland, Stripmine, Rishadan Port, Sinkhole, Tangle Wire.
I will say that these cards can be pretty bad in certain matchups though... But they are fantastic about 80% of the time, and they are the kind of card that can just win the game by themselves.
So true. Many MODO cubers disregard it as a card in draft. Here is Sam Black tearing it up with both Braids and Stax.
http://www.twitch.tv/samuelhblack/b/324642132
Braids is in ways more applicable to the cube, as she's constant removal in an aggressive color. In my experience with stacks in my small cube, it was relevant once in that it took down a threat. Of course, I needed a draft where I could have built around it. Other times it sits in packs and nobody plays it. It's iconic and has great synergy but at the same time I debate its total value a lot.
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Stax is a build around me card more than Braids is. Mana rocks and fast mana (not just Moxen but also Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb) help power stax out. Even playing turn 4 is fine as long as you're dumping multiple permanents on board per actual card (ex: lingering souls). When stax is at 2 and you're only sacrificing 0-1 mana sources and 1-2 tokens, your opponent will get behind every time.
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I've never seen someone correctly draft black aggro before so I've been drafting it over and over until I perfect it. Not bad because I 3-0'd the M13 draft with a near monoblack exalted deck (didn't face any Cower in Fears, Arc Lightning, nor Chandra's Fury! Woot).
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If you do any multiplayer, she gets even more insane. I find it not too overly difficult to build around a stax deck, and even having a semi fair board is never a big deal.
The best abuse for stax is some sort of reanimation, and I have really enjoyed these guys with token producers or with cards that bring other cards out of the GY, such as Geth, lord of the Vault. With Geth and stax effect, you can keep saccing the same creature over and over and mill their deck till you find a better critter!
My suggestion for anyone new to this strategy and on the fence, Try something like Braids and Reassembling skeleton - or another reoccurring permanent(for starters) and mix it up with some removal. Seeing you opponent slowly gas out as you keep recasting this permanent over and over as you beat them to a pulp, at your will!, is awesome.
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I also found something out I never knew, Deranged Hermit pumps all squirrels, not just your own. In M1G1 it pumped his opponent's Mirror Entity.
EDIT: In that stream he doesn't ever cast stax, but he does in this one! It's quite good too.
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scrapheap scrounger is the only one that comes to mind at the moment but i am curious if other things have been added over the years.
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StaffAs far as lockdown cards go, not really? Thalia, Heretic Cathar I guess...
There's plenty of support cards like Recruiter of the Guard (tutors for Braids) and Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast that help Stax. Stax decks tend to be aggressive, so anything that promotes aggro or produces tokens like Hanweir Garrison, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Pia Nalaar and Aether Chaser are small boosts for Stax too.
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