It's really good with token effects that give you something every turn, like Awakening Zone, Elspeth and Bitterblossom. All of these help you stay ahead, and even better help you rebuild a board or just win once the Stack has been sacrificed. I don't even consider token decks as an archetype in my cube, but these effects have very strong synergy with it.
I very much appreciate the responses here, and I'll continue to push this card to try and make it work (with an emphasis in playing it in midrange versus control matchups). I've played it in midrange (most often token builds featuring mana accelerators) a reasonable amount before, and it almost always sits in my hand in favor of a more board-impacting spell until it's too late to do much of any real damage. This isn't because I don't attempt to weigh the effects of having the card in play over the course of a few turns, but that I simply need to maximize those crucial early turns and by the time I have the luxury of spending four mana on something that "does nothing" it's power is generally minimized. We don't often have control decks that don't also feature artifact acceleration here in my cube, so this card's target opposition might just not really exist much my cube, I'm not sure (I also don't really promote the Pox strategy, so that might be an additional reason).
Just try and bite the bullet next time you want to try casting a more impacting spell, as long as your not dead the next turn smokestack will start slowly winning the game for you. And if they have artifact acceleration then that's a good thing, there are a lot more artifact destruction spells than land destruction spells, so it's much easier to halt their mana development if artifacts are in the mix.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to Cube but don't have one? Check the map if anyone is in your area and get cubing!
Just try and bite the bullet next time you want to try casting a more impacting spell, as long as your not dead the next turn smokestack will start slowly winning the game for you. And if they have artifact acceleration then that's a good thing, there are a lot more artifact destruction spells than land destruction spells, so it's much easier to halt their mana development if artifacts are in the mix.
+1
When my group and I first started to cube, we had no idea how to play Smokestack.
The key moment to play it is when you are slighlty ahead in permanents. Preferably turn 2, 3 or four. Going for the Smokestack option will cost you lives and tempo. They will retaliate by using that 'lost' turn to bash your face. Ignore this. :cool2:The focus is not on life total (theirs or yours), but on the number of lands your opponent has. Playing Smokestack might be better then dealing 5 or 10 damage with an extra creature. When your opponent has no mana, he will die a natural death.
Often a well timed Vampiric Tutor for Smokestack ends the game.
In a way it is an alternative win condition. But it will always be a hit or miss card. Which is understandable, because a colourless 4 mana card that just wins games has to a bit harder to abuse.
I also agree with Phantizle that token decks are not the best archetype for Smokestack. The whole focus of the deck is on tokens and boost. Smokestack is more a weird grafted on addition in decks like this. I hesitated to put them on my list, but Smokestack can work in these decks too as long as the timing is right.
Quote from MrDumpkins »
Just try and bite the bullet next time you want to try casting a more impacting spell, as long as your not dead the next turn smokestack will start slowly winning the game for you. And if they have artifact acceleration then that's a good thing, there are a lot more artifact destruction spells than land destruction spells, so it's much easier to halt their mana development if artifacts are in the mix.
I get what you're saying (which is why my statement was followed by "This isn't because I don't attempt to weigh the effects of having the card in play over the course of a few turns, but that I simply need to maximize those crucial early turns and by the time I have the luxury of spending four mana on something that "does nothing" it's power is generally minimized"). It's not a case of me not being able to think through the logical sequence of plays that follow having a Smokestack in play (+1 counter, maybe +1 another counter, etc) and sequence my plays so that playing a Smokestack will be favorable for me. It's just that games here are all about getting on the board in time to not get run over by my opponent. It's not that I haven't played the card before, it's just not been very good in my experience (then again, neither has Life from the Loam in my experience cubing, but that's another topic).
The impression I get from this thread so far is that from people's experiences here that it's not good in aggro, not really meant for control, and only really meant for midrange decks decks (but mostly for control deck matchups), and a little less-so for token strategies. It's just possible that we just don't draft strategies like this around here as cards like this, Loam, Squee, etc (with even Genesis barely doing anything these days...) just never seem to catch on with cube games generally being too quick these days to allow for these kind of plays to really work on a consistent basis.
Apologies if I'm coming off as blunt or rude in my responses to the advice and suggestions provided on this thread. Thanks for the replies to this topic despite me often disagreeing with certain portions!
I don't understand the math here. I count two, and it's somewhat disingenuous to say "untapped twice" anyway because you're sacrificing immediately after the second untap.
Your opponent untaps, no sac. Next turn they untap, one sac. Misguided Rage isn't a magic card so Stax hasn't impacted your opponent on that turn either. The turn after that they sac two permanents which is when it starts actually affecting them. The problem with Stax is that unlike Tangle Wire the card is actually symmetrical unless you build your deck to break it. And nobody has even brought up the worst part about Smokestack which is that it's awful when you are behind. With the quality of magic cards these days Smokestack just doesn't cut it. For 4 mana or less you can just play a ubiquitous card that wins the game on it's own and that doesn't require deck strain or setup.
Just because Misguided Rage isn't good doesn't mean their first sacrificed card doesn't impact them. It does. They only have one turn before they start feeling the pressure from Stack.
Your opponent untaps, no sac. Next turn they untap, one sac. Misguided Rage isn't a magic card so Stax hasn't impacted your opponent on that turn either. The turn after that they sac two permanents which is when it starts actually affecting them. The problem with Stax is that unlike Tangle Wire the card is actually symmetrical unless you build your deck to break it. And nobody has even brought up the worst part about Smokestack which is that it's awful when you are behind. With the quality of magic cards these days Smokestack just doesn't cut it. For 4 mana or less you can just play a ubiquitous card that wins the game on it's own and that doesn't require deck strain or setup.
Comparing Misguided Rage to Smokestack is like comparing Shock to Sulfuric Vortex and we all know how bonkers Vortex is. Yes, the first sacrifice isn't massive, but it's one less thing they will to sacrifice next time around.
There was a time back in Vintage, being a Stax player, that I joined in on the "Stackless Stax" plan which favored a more aggressive strategy, landing Loadstone Golems quickly and more, along with Phyrexian Metamorph to close out the game fast... Even Juggernaut made an appearance in small quantities.
Now this deck was fine, it was brutal, but I'll never forget playing the mirror against a true Stax deck which landed a Smokestack after my Golem and other spells and just kept putting counters on it. Think about that:
I Sac: 1 2 3 4
He Sacs : 0 1 2 3
Even with a deck that puts a person on a 4 turn clock, or less, starting on turn 1, while disrupting their plays in the process, he could ramp the Smokestack fast enough that I simply had to let the board reset.
Also, notice something about the above, the opponent always sacrifices +1 permanent to Smokestack. However, each time you add a counter, they sacrifice 1 addition permanent on top of what you have to sacrifice for the duration of the Stack being in play. So let's look at something here, by the third untap as you say it, the opponent has potentially sacrificed 3 permanents and you have only sacrificed 1. This means that if they wish to deal with the Smokestack with a lot of the value creatures and stuff, they have to basically be down in permanents in what equates to a 1 for 3 in your favor... Yes, they get to keep the creature but then it's still a 2 for 3.5 roughly.
More so, if you simply have a way to get rid of your own Smokestack, with something like say a Goblin Welder or Greater Gargadon, you can potentially just ramp it a few times and bank a value of 3+ permanents on the turn Smokestack dies alone, not counting the previous turns of it devouring boards. I wouldn't really call Gargadon "building around a card" as it's a fine dude, and Welder is fine too as long as you're running artifacts. There are of course other options too.
On a final note though, remember X untap steps with Smokestacks is not truly X untap steps. Each time they untap, even if they're sacrificing 1 permanent, it's setting them back. So yes, they get 4 Untap steps before they lose potentially 6 permanents on board total, but unless they're running tokens, they're probably not left with much by that 4th Untap phase and in one more turn they probably won't have anything. You on the other hand probably aren't as far behind, since your deck doesn't mind running recursion cards, and while you might say "Oh but I'm depending so much on one card!" not really, are you truly that upset to be running something like Bitterblossom or Lingering Souls or a Crucible of Worlds to benefit your Stripmine/Wasteland and Wildfire.
After playing Smokestack last night, a player mentioned that Assemble the Legions would be the perfect follow-up card. Got me thinking that large multicolor sections might consider it in their Boros section as I think it is quite powerful after seeing it played lately in Standard. Also allowing you to tick up Stax as much as you want seems so sweet.
After playing Smokestack last night, a player mentioned that Assemble the Legions would be the perfect follow-up card. Got me thinking that large multicolor sections might consider it in their Boros section as I think it is quite powerful after seeing it played lately in Standard. Also allowing you to tick up Stax as much as you want seems so sweet.
Was wondering if any opinions on the card have changed in the past year and a half.
I haven't got a copy for my cube yet but I always found the card incredibly interesting.
A few issues I've seen while going through this thread is that Smokestack seems to somewhat narrow in which decks can host it.
Doesn't belong in aggro, control, not good in tokens, but great in midrange against control is what I gathered from the thread so far.
Is the card worth an inclusion if the cube is unpowered with no fast mana besides Dark Ritual and doesn't include cards like Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, or a Pox package?
You don't need any of Crucible, LftL or Pox to make Stack great. I run it typically as a curve topper for B/x aggro decks or as a grindy win-con or CA machine for midrange decks with either tokens (who said it's not good here?!) or recursive creatures. It's inherently asymmetrical so it doesn't require any particular trickery in the same way as Tangle Wire is just a good card, granting you a greater advantage just by sitting there. Within two turns your opponent will have sacrificed 3 to your 1. Of course if you have any of the aforementioned cards, things get really spicy. It is however very slow. Your deck needs value on the board already or it's an 'empty' turn, so control decks don't typically want it.
Was wondering if any opinions on the card have changed in the past year and a half.
I haven't got a copy for my cube yet but I always found the card incredibly interesting.
A few issues I've seen while going through this thread is that Smokestack seems to somewhat narrow in which decks can host it.
Doesn't belong in aggro, control, not good in tokens, but great in midrange against control is what I gathered from the thread so far.
Is the card worth an inclusion if the cube is unpowered with no fast mana besides Dark Ritual and doesn't include cards like Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, or a Pox package?
I'm running it in an unpowered cube with only Mox Diamond for fast mana and no Crucible or LftT, although I have a bit of a pox package.
Yes, its worth it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
Just wanted to add that Smokestack is probably my favorite Magic card of all time, but my Cube is modern-frame only, so when i saw the FTV: annihilation spoiler, i got up and danced around for a bit. The new art is just as awesome as the original, and the ftv foiling looks really nice on it.
The last few times I have played Smokestack I have not beenrewarded with success. While I have no problem with standing on the unfortunate side of variance in magic, I identified a real problem I have with Smokestack, which is the fact that on the first upkeep of your opponent nothing happens.
This is also one of the big differences to Braids, which I still think is amazing since it just immediately does stuff. Smokestack on the other hand just feels very, very slow.
How do you see Smokestack in your lists these days? It stays in my list for now, although it is no more because I think the card is generally strong enough but because I really like Stax and I think the support is needed.
Yeah, I love it dearly so I think we'll keep it in, but I agree it's so slow. Besides the slowness, there are so many token-producing cards now that it further reduces the number of matchups where it's that much of an advantage.
Would love to hear a contrary opinion or where people are finding success with it b/c I do love the card.
I have a soft spot for this card, and still play it because it is a good card in its own right in any deck that can generate an advantage in permanents, but I have cut basically all the rest of the pox/stacks package cards as they never seemed to get there, and would totally understand people cutting smokestack for power level reasons.
I think it's still good enough to not be embarrassing in cube decks, but it's not an auto include in any normal mid-size or smaller cube.
I've also had a soft spot for Smokestack ever since I got crushed by it when I started playing Legacy at my LGS a decade ago. Unfortunately, it wasn't performing well enough to justify keeping in my 360, and I cut it in November 2020. mblieb hit on the main issue I found with it; it was too common that the other side of the table was able to keep producing tokens and play the Smokestack game just as well as the Smokestack player.
Still have great success with Smokestack. Despite the opponent having access to incidental token production, it's still hard for a random deck to out-produce the fodder dedicated smokestack builds can create, not to mention that the opposing decks aren't likely to be engineered to run a resource-light gameplan the way Stax shells are. Even if the opponent has a random Elspeth or whatever, surviving a 'Stack on 2 when the 'Stack's controller has a Bloodghast and a Crucible or whatever is still a tall order to overcome. It's one of the most successful tools we've found to grind out an advantage in a way that impacts a developed board.
It's a mono-black version, but a similar shell will also operate in basically any 2-color deck trying to execute the same gameplan. A ton of cheap recursive creatures and engines that secure permanents will almost guarantee a 1-counter Stack being sustainable on any board, a 2-counter Stack being very doable, and maybe even a 3-counter Stack on occasion. One Stack counter is hard enough to stave-off for permanent-light decks, but 2+ will grind them down for sure. I would've liked a couple disruption spells to back this up, but I just forced a shell to showcase how I use it. It operates off little-to-no mana, and can satisfy the Braids/Stack grind with ease.
White can obviously contribute to the token food plan easily, and green can as well. Not to mention something like Loam/Crucible/Excavator/W&6 and Tireless Tracker generating 2+ permanents per turn (and still growing Tracker ). I love the card and am continuously finding shells that it can succeed in. I even used a Goose in a recent draft to feed Stack food.
And red has no issues feeding the beast. Krenko and Smokestack are besties in R/X midrange token decks.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Just try and bite the bullet next time you want to try casting a more impacting spell, as long as your not dead the next turn smokestack will start slowly winning the game for you. And if they have artifact acceleration then that's a good thing, there are a lot more artifact destruction spells than land destruction spells, so it's much easier to halt their mana development if artifacts are in the mix.
The Great Cube Map!
My Powered Cube
Draft it here!
+1
When my group and I first started to cube, we had no idea how to play Smokestack.
Then one tournament, a guy drafts it with Life from the Loam and Crucible of Worlds. It was a first pick from then on.
My Legacy-Legal Cube <--- Draft It!
wtwlf123's Classic Cube
Lanxal's Pauper Cube
Cubers, UNITE! Don't forget to post your cube location on The Great Cube Map Thread
I get what you're saying (which is why my statement was followed by "This isn't because I don't attempt to weigh the effects of having the card in play over the course of a few turns, but that I simply need to maximize those crucial early turns and by the time I have the luxury of spending four mana on something that "does nothing" it's power is generally minimized"). It's not a case of me not being able to think through the logical sequence of plays that follow having a Smokestack in play (+1 counter, maybe +1 another counter, etc) and sequence my plays so that playing a Smokestack will be favorable for me. It's just that games here are all about getting on the board in time to not get run over by my opponent. It's not that I haven't played the card before, it's just not been very good in my experience (then again, neither has Life from the Loam in my experience cubing, but that's another topic).
The impression I get from this thread so far is that from people's experiences here that it's not good in aggro, not really meant for control, and only really meant for midrange decks decks (but mostly for control deck matchups), and a little less-so for token strategies. It's just possible that we just don't draft strategies like this around here as cards like this, Loam, Squee, etc (with even Genesis barely doing anything these days...) just never seem to catch on with cube games generally being too quick these days to allow for these kind of plays to really work on a consistent basis.
Apologies if I'm coming off as blunt or rude in my responses to the advice and suggestions provided on this thread. Thanks for the replies to this topic despite me often disagreeing with certain portions!
(list not current)
My Cube Google Docs Spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AibgWfz0ukmOdDNhOHlucjcxUi1wVy00NDhLbDUtUlE&hl=en_US#gid=8
(list is always current)
Your opponent untaps, no sac. Next turn they untap, one sac. Misguided Rage isn't a magic card so Stax hasn't impacted your opponent on that turn either. The turn after that they sac two permanents which is when it starts actually affecting them. The problem with Stax is that unlike Tangle Wire the card is actually symmetrical unless you build your deck to break it. And nobody has even brought up the worst part about Smokestack which is that it's awful when you are behind. With the quality of magic cards these days Smokestack just doesn't cut it. For 4 mana or less you can just play a ubiquitous card that wins the game on it's own and that doesn't require deck strain or setup.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Comparing Misguided Rage to Smokestack is like comparing Shock to Sulfuric Vortex and we all know how bonkers Vortex is. Yes, the first sacrifice isn't massive, but it's one less thing they will to sacrifice next time around.
There was a time back in Vintage, being a Stax player, that I joined in on the "Stackless Stax" plan which favored a more aggressive strategy, landing Loadstone Golems quickly and more, along with Phyrexian Metamorph to close out the game fast... Even Juggernaut made an appearance in small quantities.
Now this deck was fine, it was brutal, but I'll never forget playing the mirror against a true Stax deck which landed a Smokestack after my Golem and other spells and just kept putting counters on it. Think about that:
I Sac: 1 2 3 4
He Sacs : 0 1 2 3
Even with a deck that puts a person on a 4 turn clock, or less, starting on turn 1, while disrupting their plays in the process, he could ramp the Smokestack fast enough that I simply had to let the board reset.
Also, notice something about the above, the opponent always sacrifices +1 permanent to Smokestack. However, each time you add a counter, they sacrifice 1 addition permanent on top of what you have to sacrifice for the duration of the Stack being in play. So let's look at something here, by the third untap as you say it, the opponent has potentially sacrificed 3 permanents and you have only sacrificed 1. This means that if they wish to deal with the Smokestack with a lot of the value creatures and stuff, they have to basically be down in permanents in what equates to a 1 for 3 in your favor... Yes, they get to keep the creature but then it's still a 2 for 3.5 roughly.
More so, if you simply have a way to get rid of your own Smokestack, with something like say a Goblin Welder or Greater Gargadon, you can potentially just ramp it a few times and bank a value of 3+ permanents on the turn Smokestack dies alone, not counting the previous turns of it devouring boards. I wouldn't really call Gargadon "building around a card" as it's a fine dude, and Welder is fine too as long as you're running artifacts. There are of course other options too.
On a final note though, remember X untap steps with Smokestacks is not truly X untap steps. Each time they untap, even if they're sacrificing 1 permanent, it's setting them back. So yes, they get 4 Untap steps before they lose potentially 6 permanents on board total, but unless they're running tokens, they're probably not left with much by that 4th Untap phase and in one more turn they probably won't have anything. You on the other hand probably aren't as far behind, since your deck doesn't mind running recursion cards, and while you might say "Oh but I'm depending so much on one card!" not really, are you truly that upset to be running something like Bitterblossom or Lingering Souls or a Crucible of Worlds to benefit your Stripmine/Wasteland and Wildfire.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=385729
Assemble the Legion is also one of the few cards that makes Descent into Madness seem like a good play.
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
I haven't got a copy for my cube yet but I always found the card incredibly interesting.
A few issues I've seen while going through this thread is that Smokestack seems to somewhat narrow in which decks can host it.
Doesn't belong in aggro, control, not good in tokens, but great in midrange against control is what I gathered from the thread so far.
Is the card worth an inclusion if the cube is unpowered with no fast mana besides Dark Ritual and doesn't include cards like Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, or a Pox package?
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I'm running it in an unpowered cube with only Mox Diamond for fast mana and no Crucible or LftT, although I have a bit of a pox package.
Yes, its worth it.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Exactly. Tokens is just about the perfect deck for it. I can't see Smokestack ever leaving my cube.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Squad Goals Cube: http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/39847
PowerSquad Cube: http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/39911
The last few times I have played Smokestack I have not beenrewarded with success. While I have no problem with standing on the unfortunate side of variance in magic, I identified a real problem I have with Smokestack, which is the fact that on the first upkeep of your opponent nothing happens.
This is also one of the big differences to Braids, which I still think is amazing since it just immediately does stuff. Smokestack on the other hand just feels very, very slow.
How do you see Smokestack in your lists these days? It stays in my list for now, although it is no more because I think the card is generally strong enough but because I really like Stax and I think the support is needed.
Would love to hear a contrary opinion or where people are finding success with it b/c I do love the card.
I think it's still good enough to not be embarrassing in cube decks, but it's not an auto include in any normal mid-size or smaller cube.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
[180 classic cube]
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/605bc0ccafe12b1067feb149
It's a mono-black version, but a similar shell will also operate in basically any 2-color deck trying to execute the same gameplan. A ton of cheap recursive creatures and engines that secure permanents will almost guarantee a 1-counter Stack being sustainable on any board, a 2-counter Stack being very doable, and maybe even a 3-counter Stack on occasion. One Stack counter is hard enough to stave-off for permanent-light decks, but 2+ will grind them down for sure. I would've liked a couple disruption spells to back this up, but I just forced a shell to showcase how I use it. It operates off little-to-no mana, and can satisfy the Braids/Stack grind with ease.
White can obviously contribute to the token food plan easily, and green can as well. Not to mention something like Loam/Crucible/Excavator/W&6 and Tireless Tracker generating 2+ permanents per turn (and still growing Tracker ). I love the card and am continuously finding shells that it can succeed in. I even used a Goose in a recent draft to feed Stack food.
And red has no issues feeding the beast. Krenko and Smokestack are besties in R/X midrange token decks.
Maybe something like this could work too:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/605bcb69afe12b1067ff20a4
And even if not, it still looks like a lot of fun!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!