I prefer Stone Rain - I don't want to pay 1 extra for a 1/1 body, especially in the land removal category where things get exponentially worse at higher costs. I would need a cast-iron guarantee of abusing the fact it's a 1/1 creature to make that worthwhile, and even then, I prefer all my other 4 drops. I would run it in decks with other LD, but not happily enough for me to dedicate a slot to it.
I think the scarcity heuristic is at work on that guy, if I'm honest.
I'm currently sitting at 50 cards per color. I am looking at expanding the cube to perhaps 60 per color.
Current 4 drops take up 4 or 5 slots (always in flux). How many would you run if the color pie is increased 60? Similarly, how would you judge red 4 drops? I am disliking LD more and more in red -- perhaps I would look at hound of grisseldaddy again. Firecat being adjusted to a 4 drop. etc
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
50 cards per color ...that's a 360 list, right? I'd probably only include 3 red 4-drops at that size (plus Koth). If you went up to 60 per pair, that would be more like a 450 card cube, and I'd probably use 4 red 4-drops at that size.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
It has been FAR better than Stone Rain ever was. And I like Stone Rain. But being a creature enables too many interactions.
Like all things, it depends on your cube.
Goblin Settler is much more abusable, and it does have a lot of interactions. But in a 'LD deck', the 3 cost is huge, often times coming down T2 off the back of a mana elf. Paying 1 more for an irrelevant 1/1 body in that deck is less than ideal.
Now, in my cube I support dedicated LD decks, so I'd prefer Stone Rain almost every time. So it depends what your cube needs. Most people don't support a strong LD package though, so I'd venture to guess that Settler will do more things in most cubes.
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50 cards per color ...that's a 360 list, right? I'd probably only include 3 red 4-drops at that size (plus Koth). If you went up to 60 per pair, that would be more like a 450 card cube, and I'd probably use 4 red 4-drops at that size.
Running a little more. Closer to 400. I include a dedicated 3 color card for example (shards). The multicolor I have duals/shocks/fetch/4 slots per 2 color combo.
Unpowered. Mono-color is sitting at 50:
Blistering Firecat (considered a pseudo 4 due to the morph. same for Exalted)
Avalanche Riders
Flametongue Kavu ---> slight decline, but still solid
Hellrider ---> literally owns people
Hero of Oxid Ridge ---> wins games
That's my 5 at the moment. Alternatively, you can rate Firecat as a 3 drop, meaning I have 4 true 4cc choices. I already have more than you recommend.
...why? mana denial is crucial for aggro decks. the LD i run in red has been really great.
For the most part, I'd agree. There's nothing wrong with pillage/stone rain/molten rain. However, I feel Avalanche has grown stale and marginalized over time. Like FtK fell a peg or two -- but is still solid, AR fell a few pegs and sometimes I really just wanna drop him entirely. IMO, he's there due to sympathy. I am shocked to see that goblin costs $50. Are you kidding me lol? I have many more cards to buy. That card is throwing away $50 -- not worth the pricetag.
Goblin Settler is much more abusable, and it does have a lot of interactions. But in a 'LD deck', the 3 cost is huge, often times coming down T2 off the back of a mana elf. Paying 1 more for an irrelevant 1/1 body in that deck is less than ideal.
Now, in my cube I support dedicated LD decks, so I'd prefer Stone Rain almost every time. So it depends what your cube needs. Most people don't support a strong LD package though, so I'd venture to guess that Settler will do more things in most cubes.
This is a good point. I guess it's how you shape it. IMO, I feel AR doesn't make-or-break the cube's LD package.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Goblin Settler is much more abusable, and it does have a lot of interactions. But in a 'LD deck', the 3 cost is huge, often times coming down T2 off the back of a mana elf. Paying 1 more for an irrelevant 1/1 body in that deck is less than ideal.
Now, in my cube I support dedicated LD decks, so I'd prefer Stone Rain almost every time. So it depends what your cube needs. Most people don't support a strong LD package though, so I'd venture to guess that Settler will do more things in most cubes.
This is correct. I'll take the guaranteed one mana discount over the potential to abuse it on the odd occasion. Blinking it and playing tricks with equipment is cute and all, but at the end of the day I'll take the greater efficacy of the cheaper card. Especially on LD, which suffers a huge amount by being delayed a turn. Not that all 4-5 mana LD is bad by default, of course, but I have Avalanche Riders for that at 4CMC anyway who is bigger, has haste, and sends himself to the GY if that's what is needed to abuse him.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Don't mean to necro this thread, but the recent printings of some very strong red 4 drops seem to warrant a revival of this discussion. How do people rank the red 4 drops now? For me, its
At 450, I run the first 5. But I've been meaning to test Avalance Riders over Hazoret the Fervent, since some people swear by it as one of the best. I don't support the artifact deck, so Pia and Kiran Nalaar doesn't impress me, although the card is still quite good.
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Don't mean to necro this thread, but the recent printings of some very strong red 4 drops seem to warrant a revival of this discussion. How do people rank the red 4 drops now? For me, its
At 450, I run the first 5. But I've been meaning to test Avalance Riders over Hazoret the Fervent, since some people swear by it as one of the best. I don't support the artifact deck, so Pia and Kiran Nalaar doesn't impress me, although the card is still quite good.
Pretty much how I'd rank it with one exception: P&K Nalaar should be in the top 4 and above Hero of Oxid Ridge.
Hellrider
Koth of the Hammer
Pia and Kiran
FTK
Hero
Avalanche Riders
Hazoret
I actually cut Koth and Hero due to planewalker saturation and redundancy. I'm interested in trying Hazoret, especially if the Kiki package I just slotted in doesn't feel right.
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Interesting no mention of Purphoros. He can push through a lot of damage in the right decks.
I class Purphoros as an enchantment. Rarely any attacking, in my experience. It's bonkers good, though, and probably my favorite red 4 overall.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Don't mean to necro this thread, but the recent printings of some very strong red 4 drops seem to warrant a revival of this discussion. How do people rank the red 4 drops now? For me, its
At 450, I run the first 5. But I've been meaning to test Avalance Riders over Hazoret the Fervent, since some people swear by it as one of the best. I don't support the artifact deck, so Pia and Kiran Nalaar doesn't impress me, although the card is still quite good.
It depends on your criteria. Here I am ranking as importance/ value as a cube addition, or cube logevity defined as how soon I think the card should be cut from cube lists. I do not evaluate them as a pick. Hero of Oxid Ridge is a powerful card that has homes, but is also the most redundant and least necessary. He is probably among the first red four drops I would cut.
1. Koth of the Hammer
2. Pia and Kiran Naalar (lots of synergies, lots of homes)
2. Hellrider (by pick power level it would be second. Obviously is a great aggro curve topper, but also supports red tokens)
4. Flametongue Kavu
5. Hazoret the Fervent (too early for me to tell, could move a little up or a lot down)
6. Hero of Oxid Ridge (strong but weaker than other options and aggro doesn't need many four drops)
7. Avalanche Riders (stars need to align for me to want to maindeck this over the cards above)
It plays better than it looks in my experience. Definitely not something I am or probably will run, but there's a small window for dealing with the Ogre before you could get alpha'd the next turn.
It's definitely explosive, but Purphoros not being a creature most of the time on top of indestructible makes him inevitable. Also, being splashable is a HUGE selling point.
I think the scarcity heuristic is at work on that guy, if I'm honest.
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Current 4 drops take up 4 or 5 slots (always in flux). How many would you run if the color pie is increased 60? Similarly, how would you judge red 4 drops? I am disliking LD more and more in red -- perhaps I would look at hound of grisseldaddy again. Firecat being adjusted to a 4 drop. etc
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...why? mana denial is crucial for aggro decks. the LD i run in red has been really great.
Goblin Settler is much more abusable, and it does have a lot of interactions. But in a 'LD deck', the 3 cost is huge, often times coming down T2 off the back of a mana elf. Paying 1 more for an irrelevant 1/1 body in that deck is less than ideal.
Now, in my cube I support dedicated LD decks, so I'd prefer Stone Rain almost every time. So it depends what your cube needs. Most people don't support a strong LD package though, so I'd venture to guess that Settler will do more things in most cubes.
Running a little more. Closer to 400. I include a dedicated 3 color card for example (shards). The multicolor I have duals/shocks/fetch/4 slots per 2 color combo.
Unpowered. Mono-color is sitting at 50:
Blistering Firecat (considered a pseudo 4 due to the morph. same for Exalted)
Avalanche Riders
Flametongue Kavu ---> slight decline, but still solid
Hellrider ---> literally owns people
Hero of Oxid Ridge ---> wins games
That's my 5 at the moment. Alternatively, you can rate Firecat as a 3 drop, meaning I have 4 true 4cc choices. I already have more than you recommend.
For the most part, I'd agree. There's nothing wrong with pillage/stone rain/molten rain. However, I feel Avalanche has grown stale and marginalized over time. Like FtK fell a peg or two -- but is still solid, AR fell a few pegs and sometimes I really just wanna drop him entirely. IMO, he's there due to sympathy. I am shocked to see that goblin costs $50. Are you kidding me lol? I have many more cards to buy. That card is throwing away $50 -- not worth the pricetag.
This is a good point. I guess it's how you shape it. IMO, I feel AR doesn't make-or-break the cube's LD package.
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This is correct. I'll take the guaranteed one mana discount over the potential to abuse it on the odd occasion. Blinking it and playing tricks with equipment is cute and all, but at the end of the day I'll take the greater efficacy of the cheaper card. Especially on LD, which suffers a huge amount by being delayed a turn. Not that all 4-5 mana LD is bad by default, of course, but I have Avalanche Riders for that at 4CMC anyway who is bigger, has haste, and sends himself to the GY if that's what is needed to abuse him.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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1. Koth of the Hammer
2. Hellrider
3. Flametongue Kavu
4. Hero of Oxid Ridge
5. Hazoret the Fervent
6. Avalance Riders
7. Pia and Kiran Nalaar
At 450, I run the first 5. But I've been meaning to test Avalance Riders over Hazoret the Fervent, since some people swear by it as one of the best. I don't support the artifact deck, so Pia and Kiran Nalaar doesn't impress me, although the card is still quite good.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
Pretty much how I'd rank it with one exception: P&K Nalaar should be in the top 4 and above Hero of Oxid Ridge.
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Hellrider
Koth of the Hammer
Pia and Kiran
FTK
Hero
Avalanche Riders
Hazoret
I actually cut Koth and Hero due to planewalker saturation and redundancy. I'm interested in trying Hazoret, especially if the Kiki package I just slotted in doesn't feel right.
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Modern: UGR Delver
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I class Purphoros as an enchantment. Rarely any attacking, in my experience. It's bonkers good, though, and probably my favorite red 4 overall.
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Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
It depends on your criteria. Here I am ranking as importance/ value as a cube addition, or cube logevity defined as how soon I think the card should be cut from cube lists. I do not evaluate them as a pick. Hero of Oxid Ridge is a powerful card that has homes, but is also the most redundant and least necessary. He is probably among the first red four drops I would cut.
1. Koth of the Hammer
2. Pia and Kiran Naalar (lots of synergies, lots of homes)
2. Hellrider (by pick power level it would be second. Obviously is a great aggro curve topper, but also supports red tokens)
4. Flametongue Kavu
5. Hazoret the Fervent (too early for me to tell, could move a little up or a lot down)
6. Hero of Oxid Ridge (strong but weaker than other options and aggro doesn't need many four drops)
7. Avalanche Riders (stars need to align for me to want to maindeck this over the cards above)
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2. P&K
3. Hellrider
4. FTK
5. Hazoret
6. Riders
7. Hero
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Creatures:
Ogre Battledrive would be my first cut here, it is a pet card amongst my players though.
Non-Creatures:
I will replace Chandra, Pyromaster with Chandra, Torch of Defiance as soon as I get one).
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