That looks reasonable though hybrids and signets are a whole different thing for me. I haven't gotten to try Obzedat. Is it really better than Gerrard's Verdict, or is it more of a coin flip?
I really like it. It's just so hard to deal with for so many decks. An almost ensured 8 life swing is hard to deal with for so many decks.
I dislike Verdict because of the color requirements. Even in dedicated BW decks, sometimes it gets cast off-curve which lessens the impact and makes it more like a Mind Rot that occasionally gains you some life. I prefer the angel or the obzedat as a more high-impact card in multicolor.
I haven't had problems casting Gerard's Verdict on T2 in my WB decks, but that doesn't really matter. Because the discard isn't random, you can hit them on turns 3-5 and often get better value from it than you do on T2. Even if it's cast later in the curve, the 2cc is still great value compared to the 3+cc discard spells. Playing Verdict and another 2-3 drop on turn 4-5 is great.
Desolation Angel is a babe and a bomb. Not hard to ensure you win the game if you cast her with kicker. It's Erhnamgeddon all rolled into one sweet Orzhov card.
Nothing in this game is degenerate or completely dominant. They haven't banned anything in standard in a long, long time. Hell they should have banned affinity right away, but they didn't until boxed sales collapsed too. Hasbro had to come in and fire people.
I'll enjoy watching all the whiners eat crow monday.
I took a cube list off the web with this card
And it makes little sense to me
Its only for BW control
it costs 7 mana and cant be cheated (without shooting yourself in the foot)
its not a autowin button (I struggle to remember a 6-7 cmc card that cant race this; or you end up not attacking because more damage will come in return; it can be destroyed in response)
So narrow, thats a bad cube design
I took a cube list off the web with this card
And it makes little sense to me
Its only for BW control
it costs 7 mana and cant be cheated (without shooting yourself in the foot)
its not a autowin button (I struggle to remember a 6-7 cmc card that cant race this; or you end up not attacking because more damage will come in return; it can be destroyed in response)
So narrow, thats a bad cube design
Well, first of all, the good news is that if you or your group haven't been impressed with it, you can just swap it out for a card that you guys do like. That's one of the great things about cube. Second, Desolation Angel, while it can be very powerful, is very much just a pet card for those of us that really like it.
As far as game play, it's not just for BW control and often does just win the game the turn it hits play. As far back as Alpha a winning combination has been to play a big finisher and follow it up with Armageddon. Armageddon is obviously a card that needs to be played at the right time in order to be the most effective and the Angel is exactly the same. You can't just run it out when your opponent has a board full of dudes that compete with it or a ton of mana rocks. Like wtwlf said, it's more of a midrange curve topper when you're spending your first turns answering their threats and disrupting their plan, then you just close the game out with the big angel Armageddon combo. If you can cast it right in that sweet spot, you'll often get the scoop right there.
With that said, though, again, it's your cube. If you're not a fan, you can always replace it with another of the Sorins or Gerrard's Verdict. Orzhov is not a guild that's short on playable cards.
Agree with calibretto. I love Desolation Angel, and even though I'm only running three Orzhov cards, I keep thinking of bringing it back. In reality, it would come back if I expanded my section to 5 or 6 cards.
It wins the game... If you arrange the mana right, and if your opponent doesn't have something bigger than the 5/4 flier. It also can't be cheated into play and can in fringe cases be answered by some instant speed removal. A few stars have to align for it to 'auto-win'. For all those reasons I like Magister of Worth a lot more. All that said though, it's a damn cool card and I do remember its cube days quite fondly.
It wins the game... If you arrange the mana right, and if your opponent doesn't have something bigger than the 5/4 flier. It also can't be cheated into play and can in fringe cases be answered by some instant speed removal. A few stars have to align for it to 'auto-win'. For all those reasons I like Magister of Worth a lot more. All that said though, it's a damn cool card and I do remember its cube days quite fondly.
I think this is mostly true. The stars do have to align a bit, but not any more than Armageddon or Catastrophe (for lands). Obviously not every game will be answers forever until you find and cast your angel into an empty board, but that window does happen often enough. We have a couple of guys in our group that aren't really fans of the angel for all the reasons you laid out there, Goodking. But we have a German foil so when they talk crap about opening it in a pack I just tell them to pass it on down to me.
Well lets put personal preferences aside as they can justify anything imaginable
Is it a good cube design to put such a narrow card (that wins a game when stars align, but I cant remember a 6-7 cmc card that doesnt win a game when stars align)?
It is good and very good when you are winning(least important) and at parity, and blank and bad in development and losing (most important)
At the start of your turn you are likely to be losing or at parity making this card not very good even when you finally met mana requirements
Good cube design is playing with cards that your playgroup enjoys using. If you don't like Desolation Angel, cut it. I don't currently have it in my list, but I've won more cube games than I can remember with Desolation Angel. It's a fine option, and a really powerful and unique card.
Well lets put personal preferences aside as they can justify anything imaginable
Personal preference is a big part of cube, and a big part of discussing cube is trying to avoid arguing experiences.
I wouldn't get too worried or in depth about these points, because arguing experience goes no where, and I don't think anyone fully disagrees with you here or else it would actually be seen in lists.
I don't think you're wrong, but it would be impossible to prove that it didn't perform the way it did, or that playgroups didn't like it, and no one is really arguing much beyond that. Like, calibretto has called it a pet card at least two times in here--that's not exactly a ringing endorsement! Last post on here was 5 years ago, and magic has changed a lot in 5 years
You're preaching to the choir, but please try a different sermon.
Good cube design is playing with cards that your playgroup enjoys using.
That's it, right there. Nail on the head. If my group insisted that I include Storm Crow in the cube because they all just loved it that much and it consistently got picked and played in blue decks, I'd play it. To use a more accurate, less exaggerated example, I currently run Teferi, Temporal Archmage. Now, every time a sweet new blue spell is released, this is a card I'm looking at to make room. Usually, though, in discussions with my group, they put up several arguments for Teferi as to why he's great and why he should stay. I think a lot of their reasoning is biased based on their own Magical Christmas Land experiences with him (Teferi plus Koth emblem for example), but the big planeswalker stays around because my group likes him even though there are probably several great five or six cc blue cards I could be running instead.
The point is, no one's here arguing that Deso Angel is great and everyone should be running it. We're just saying that it's been a fine card for us and our groups really enjoy it as the fourth or fifth Orzhov slot. There are plenty of solid cards that could also be occupying that fourth or fifth slot depending on preference. Deso Angel is not a staple by any means. It's just a fun and interesting card that some of us still happen to like. That may be out of pure nostalgia, but reasoning doesn't really matter when we're up front right from the beginning in staying it's 100% a pet card. All we can do at that point is explain what we like about it, and that it's certainly cuttable.
Desolation Angel is a very particular card I've had the most success with it hiding it behind usually a powerful control deck you might be able to use it as a top-end finisher and a black white aggro deck if you had nothing else but generally speaking if you can set up a really nice mid-range or control deck that thing is going to end the game every time the mess you're unlucky enough to go up against someone who managed to draft a ton of non land Mana
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I really like it. It's just so hard to deal with for so many decks. An almost ensured 8 life swing is hard to deal with for so many decks.
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Who's eating crow?
And it makes little sense to me
Its only for BW control
it costs 7 mana and cant be cheated (without shooting yourself in the foot)
its not a autowin button (I struggle to remember a 6-7 cmc card that cant race this; or you end up not attacking because more damage will come in return; it can be destroyed in response)
So narrow, thats a bad cube design
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
It's a midrange curve-topper.
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Well, first of all, the good news is that if you or your group haven't been impressed with it, you can just swap it out for a card that you guys do like. That's one of the great things about cube. Second, Desolation Angel, while it can be very powerful, is very much just a pet card for those of us that really like it.
As far as game play, it's not just for BW control and often does just win the game the turn it hits play. As far back as Alpha a winning combination has been to play a big finisher and follow it up with Armageddon. Armageddon is obviously a card that needs to be played at the right time in order to be the most effective and the Angel is exactly the same. You can't just run it out when your opponent has a board full of dudes that compete with it or a ton of mana rocks. Like wtwlf said, it's more of a midrange curve topper when you're spending your first turns answering their threats and disrupting their plan, then you just close the game out with the big angel Armageddon combo. If you can cast it right in that sweet spot, you'll often get the scoop right there.
With that said, though, again, it's your cube. If you're not a fan, you can always replace it with another of the Sorins or Gerrard's Verdict. Orzhov is not a guild that's short on playable cards.
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I think this is mostly true. The stars do have to align a bit, but not any more than Armageddon or Catastrophe (for lands). Obviously not every game will be answers forever until you find and cast your angel into an empty board, but that window does happen often enough. We have a couple of guys in our group that aren't really fans of the angel for all the reasons you laid out there, Goodking. But we have a German foil so when they talk crap about opening it in a pack I just tell them to pass it on down to me.
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Is it a good cube design to put such a narrow card (that wins a game when stars align, but I cant remember a 6-7 cmc card that doesnt win a game when stars align)?
It is good and very good when you are winning(least important) and at parity, and blank and bad in development and losing (most important)
At the start of your turn you are likely to be losing or at parity making this card not very good even when you finally met mana requirements
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Personal preference is a big part of cube, and a big part of discussing cube is trying to avoid arguing experiences.
I wouldn't get too worried or in depth about these points, because arguing experience goes no where, and I don't think anyone fully disagrees with you here or else it would actually be seen in lists.
I don't think you're wrong, but it would be impossible to prove that it didn't perform the way it did, or that playgroups didn't like it, and no one is really arguing much beyond that. Like, calibretto has called it a pet card at least two times in here--that's not exactly a ringing endorsement! Last post on here was 5 years ago, and magic has changed a lot in 5 years
You're preaching to the choir, but please try a different sermon.
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That's it, right there. Nail on the head. If my group insisted that I include Storm Crow in the cube because they all just loved it that much and it consistently got picked and played in blue decks, I'd play it. To use a more accurate, less exaggerated example, I currently run Teferi, Temporal Archmage. Now, every time a sweet new blue spell is released, this is a card I'm looking at to make room. Usually, though, in discussions with my group, they put up several arguments for Teferi as to why he's great and why he should stay. I think a lot of their reasoning is biased based on their own Magical Christmas Land experiences with him (Teferi plus Koth emblem for example), but the big planeswalker stays around because my group likes him even though there are probably several great five or six cc blue cards I could be running instead.
The point is, no one's here arguing that Deso Angel is great and everyone should be running it. We're just saying that it's been a fine card for us and our groups really enjoy it as the fourth or fifth Orzhov slot. There are plenty of solid cards that could also be occupying that fourth or fifth slot depending on preference. Deso Angel is not a staple by any means. It's just a fun and interesting card that some of us still happen to like. That may be out of pure nostalgia, but reasoning doesn't really matter when we're up front right from the beginning in staying it's 100% a pet card. All we can do at that point is explain what we like about it, and that it's certainly cuttable.
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