Meloku the Clouded Mirror was discussed here in the Random Cube Card of the Day thread. Is your opinion of this card clouded by nostalgia or do I need a reminder or how good it can be?
I think you need a reminder.
Splashable, insane with Opposition (during your upkeep, tap all your lands). Great on offense and defense, murders planeswalkers with all the flyers. Bunch of little guys to put equipment on, great with anthem effects, purphoros, stax effects...
That seems to be what people are telling me in the thread, but Meloku has just been doing stone cold nothing lately. I think its just the super low floor that I'm getting tired of, most 5 drops at least generate some value if the eat removal; I think Meloku play more like a 7 drop (2 mana up for a counter or make 2 birds if its too soft a counter) and as a 7 its pretty lackluster. Maybe that that is a weird way to look at it, but I think tapping out for Meloku is terrible so he is never hitting the board on curve but isn't a card that really rewards ramping into with artifacts.
Maybe I will make the effort really push Meloku in my next draft, but I feel like I have said that once or twice before.
Meloku the Clouded Mirror was discussed here in the Random Cube Card of the Day thread. Is your opinion of this card clouded by nostalgia or do I need a reminder or how good it can be?
I think you need a reminder.
Splashable, insane with Opposition (during your upkeep, tap all your lands). Great on offense and defense, murders planeswalkers with all the flyers. Bunch of little guys to put equipment on, great with anthem effects, purphoros, stax effects...
That seems to be what people are telling me in the thread, but Meloku has just been doing stone cold nothing lately. I think its just the super low floor that I'm getting tired of, most 5 drops at least generate some value if the eat removal; I think Meloku play more like a 7 drop (2 mana up for a counter or make 2 birds if its too soft a counter) and as a 7 its pretty lackluster. Maybe that that is a weird way to look at it, but I think tapping out for Meloku is terrible so he is never hitting the board on curve but isn't a card that really rewards ramping into with artifacts.
Maybe I will make the effort really push Meloku in my next draft, but I feel like I have said that once or twice before.
I've kinda had this happen with me and our playgroup(s) for years. Meloku goes from being awesome to being a 2/4 flier for 4U pretty drastically. It's great when it works, and it's as you describe when it doesnt.
That being said, blue 5s don't really have a ton of literal creature options, so it's your best option regarding that, and it does synergize with enough to keep it around.
Usually what happens around here is people start talking ***** about Meloku and then it dominates the night, so perhaps that will help you guys too lol
Meloku the Clouded Mirror was discussed here in the Random Cube Card of the Day thread. Is your opinion of this card clouded by nostalgia or do I need a reminder or how good it can be?
I think you need a reminder.
Splashable, insane with Opposition (during your upkeep, tap all your lands). Great on offense and defense, murders planeswalkers with all the flyers. Bunch of little guys to put equipment on, great with anthem effects, purphoros, stax effects...
That seems to be what people are telling me in the thread, but Meloku has just been doing stone cold nothing lately. I think its just the super low floor that I'm getting tired of, most 5 drops at least generate some value if the eat removal; I think Meloku play more like a 7 drop (2 mana up for a counter or make 2 birds if its too soft a counter) and as a 7 its pretty lackluster. Maybe that that is a weird way to look at it, but I think tapping out for Meloku is terrible so he is never hitting the board on curve but isn't a card that really rewards ramping into with artifacts.
Maybe I will make the effort really push Meloku in my next draft, but I feel like I have said that once or twice before.
I've kinda had this happen with me and our playgroup(s) for years. Meloku goes from being awesome to being a 2/4 flier for 4U pretty drastically. It's great when it works, and it's as you describe when it doesnt.
That being said, blue 5s don't really have a ton of literal creature options, so it's your best option regarding that, and it does synergize with enough to keep it around.
Usually what happens around here is people start talking ***** about Meloku and then it dominates the night, so perhaps that will help you guys too lol
Yea blue 5s are a bit light on creatures so he will stay for now, but I can't remember the last time I cards that Meloku resolved.
I'm always worried I'm keeping some cards around just because they can dominate a game here or there. I might just cut him someday and see if anyone notices/cares.
I'm always worried I'm keeping some cards around just because they can dominate a game here or there. I might just cut him someday and see if anyone notices/cares.
If that's your inclination, I'd just do it. If no one in your playgroup is playing a card, then you're wasting a space and something else could be a lot better. This is especially true in blue, which probably has the most cubeable cards not being cubed.
I still like Meloku. Other players play it more than I do, but he’s very hard to deal with once you untap with him. Really wish he had a 5th toughness. Meloku’s value really goes up if Moat is present in your cube.
I don't think it helps that blue's 5s are incredible. It's hard for me to find room in a deck for Meloku that already has Treachery/Bribery/Mystic Confluence. It's definitely the best actual creature at 5, even after all these years, but it's only a matter of time before we get a blue 5 that doesn't require a mana investment (and more) to be good.
Unlike all the other options, Meloku is such a unique effect. I'm regularly finding things to do with Meloku that other options just can't. Like interacting with token-support cards (like Opposition, Purphoros, etc), interacting with sacrifice engines/outlets, interacting with discard effects, triggering landfall effects, navigating around Edicts, etc. There just isn't anything you could run in his slot that does nearly as much work for nearly as many shells.
Unlike all the other options, Meloku is such a unique effect. I'm regularly finding things to do with Meloku that other options just can't. Like interacting with token-support cards (like Opposition, Purphoros, etc), interacting with sacrifice engines/outlets, interacting with discard effects, triggering landfall effects, navigating around Edicts, etc. There just isn't anything you could run in his slot that does nearly as much work for nearly as many shells.
This is what, ultimately, keeps it around for me. While the floor is low--you can't afford to invest more mana or take lands off the table (or as many as you need) or it just dies--the ceiling is real and interacts with a lot of different cards in cube in a really powerful way. It's not surprising that people come to vastly different conclusions considering how small all cube owners' sample sizes realistically are.
Meloku was in and out of my cube for most of 2015-2016, but eventually cut it for good.
There's some cool interactions with it, and I like it a lot in an opposition shell, or some random brew with a bunch of synergies... but in generic control decks, good stuff decks, ramp decks, or midrange decks without a lot of interaction, I don't think he's strong enough to see play.
Not a bad card by any stretch, but decided that blue's competition is too stiff, and there's an overabundance of 5+ mana finishers to choose from in cube.
No one in my play group fought for the card or expressed concern for my decision to cut him during the time frame she was on the bench for testing other cards.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Agreed, I've never really liked Meloku even when he was decently on curve. I think part of his extended life support is from Kami Block Constructed. If looking for a replacement five-drop in blue, I suggest Multiple Choice- It makes a creature at 5 mana so I think it fills the slot quite nicely. Iymrith, Desert Doom might also be good.
Meloku's a hard card to explain well, because it's also a hard card to play well. But if you're playing it like a Hermit, it's not going to play well, because that's not what it is. It's more like an on-demand Bitterblossom/Court of Grace effect that's stapled to a medium-sized flying body and can make its tokens at instant speed. It has a splashable cost, it can guarantee at least some kind of flying board presence once you have 6 or more available mana even in the face of targeted removal, and it can fuel your hand with cards that you can use for a slew of different effects. I like pairing it with looting effects and cards like Firestorm/Forbid that can use the excess lands for fuel. It's good with cards that allow you to play extra lands, but that's not the primary synergy I find with it. It's a great card to pair with Opposition and Skullclamp, obviously, and any of the anthem effects in the cube. But I think the face value effect is still quite strong. When you don't have another land drop to make, it essentially jams a free flying creature on your turn, and then can be used to make on-demand blockers and threats at instant speed during combat on your opponent's turn or their end step. The older cube players in my group have more success with it, because the experience of using it in a bunch of various board states from back in Kamigawa-era standard is helpful in solving some complicated combat puzzles and clocks with Meloku. It can be hard to know when to go all-in with it, when to use it as a synergy piece, and when to use it as a Bitterblossom strapped to an Azure Drake. It's one of my favorite win conditions in Moat decks, and it can also be a finisher that's pullable by Imperial Recruiter. Look, I know it's not what it used to be, but we continue to win with it in ways that other replacement options wouldn't be able to emulate, and for that, he's secure for now. But as always, if it's a card your group hates, there's no reason to play it. Hopefully it plays well for you, but if not, nothing's forcing you to keep it in. Cheers, and happy cubing.
Meloku's a hard card to explain well, because it's also a hard card to play well. But if you're playing it like a Hermit, it's not going to play well, because that's not what it is. It's more like an on-demand Bitterblossom/Court of Grace effect that's stapled to a medium-sized flying body and can make its tokens at instant speed. It has a splashable cost, it can guarantee at least some kind of flying board presence once you have 6 or more available mana even in the face of targeted removal, and it can fuel your hand with cards that you can use for a slew of different effects. I like pairing it with looting effects and cards like Firestorm/Forbid that can use the excess lands for fuel. It's good with cards that allow you to play extra lands, but that's not the primary synergy I find with it. It's a great card to pair with Opposition and Skullclamp, obviously, and any of the anthem effects in the cube. But I think the face value effect is still quite strong. When you don't have another land drop to make, it essentially jams a free flying creature on your turn, and then can be used to make on-demand blockers and threats at instant speed during combat on your opponent's turn or their end step. The older cube players in my group have more success with it, because the experience of using it in a bunch of various board states from back in Kamigawa-era standard is helpful in solving some complicated combat puzzles and clocks with Meloku. It can be hard to know when to go all-in with it, when to use it as a synergy piece, and when to use it as a Bitterblossom strapped to an Azure Drake. It's one of my favorite win conditions in Moat decks, and it can also be a finisher that's pullable by Imperial Recruiter. Look, I know it's not what it used to be, but we continue to win with it in ways that other replacement options wouldn't be able to emulate, and for that, he's secure for now. But as always, if it's a card your group hates, there's no reason to play it. Hopefully it plays well for you, but if not, nothing's forcing you to keep it in. Cheers, and happy cubing.
Thanks for the very detailed explanation!
I could see Meloku's value improve with player experience.
I could definitely give him a try in the coming days - But i definitely opt for finishers with some form of built in removal.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I want to back up everything wtwlf said about this card. Meloku's goodness is understated but he can get there in more different situations than many other creatures. He's safe in my cube for the foreseeable future.
I cut Meloku a while ago and don't really miss it (aside from its awesome art). While he has powerful plays, Meloku relies too much on surviving the next turn or just being really late in the game where you have a bunch of mana up. Even he he does survive the untap, bouncing your lands to hand can be a lot of the time. For me, Shark Typhoon does a lot of what Meloku wants to do in a control deck in terms of being a threat that scales in power the more mana you have available to you while being a lot more flexible in the early game and having flash and being essentially uncounterable to boot.
That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing a power crept Meloku in the upcoming Kamigawa set.
I want to back up everything wtwlf said about this card. Meloku's goodness is understated but he can get there in more different situations than many other creatures. He's safe in my cube for the foreseeable future.
Cheers,
rant
I think we should have more discussions like this. Cards like Consecrated Sphinx are much easier to explain and deploy (hence more popular).
I personally have played Affinity and Twin and I can attest these decks can be very difficult to play and require strong understanding of tempo.
The more recent take on win cons is they should have some form of built in removal/ disruption - i.e. Oko, Jace, Teferi etc. This is why I'm skeptical about cards like Meloku and Psychatog.
My biggest reluctance for Meloku is I had this notion that my control/ midrange top end should also be fatties for cheat/ reanimator - see Elesh Norn, Dragonlord Atarka, Grave Titan might fit the mold for all three, but other creatures aren't that flexible.
I realized this has been a very incorrect line of thinking and my cube at one point was filled with this glut of 5-6 CMC creatures that failed to perform any of those roles.
This line of thinking I really blame these new cards especially, Oko, Uro, Teferi, Ragavan etc. which are incredibly low costed, playable in almost any decks in those colors and are great in pretty much any matchup/ situation.
The main reason why I'm considering him is the number of Land spells as well as cycle lands that have been printed recently (and hopefully in the new set). Picking up lands could be a plus.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
That seems to be what people are telling me in the thread, but Meloku has just been doing stone cold nothing lately. I think its just the super low floor that I'm getting tired of, most 5 drops at least generate some value if the eat removal; I think Meloku play more like a 7 drop (2 mana up for a counter or make 2 birds if its too soft a counter) and as a 7 its pretty lackluster. Maybe that that is a weird way to look at it, but I think tapping out for Meloku is terrible so he is never hitting the board on curve but isn't a card that really rewards ramping into with artifacts.
Maybe I will make the effort really push Meloku in my next draft, but I feel like I have said that once or twice before.
I've kinda had this happen with me and our playgroup(s) for years. Meloku goes from being awesome to being a 2/4 flier for 4U pretty drastically. It's great when it works, and it's as you describe when it doesnt.
That being said, blue 5s don't really have a ton of literal creature options, so it's your best option regarding that, and it does synergize with enough to keep it around.
Usually what happens around here is people start talking ***** about Meloku and then it dominates the night, so perhaps that will help you guys too lol
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Yea blue 5s are a bit light on creatures so he will stay for now, but I can't remember the last time I cards that Meloku resolved.
I'm always worried I'm keeping some cards around just because they can dominate a game here or there. I might just cut him someday and see if anyone notices/cares.
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers.
If that's your inclination, I'd just do it. If no one in your playgroup is playing a card, then you're wasting a space and something else could be a lot better. This is especially true in blue, which probably has the most cubeable cards not being cubed.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
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This is what, ultimately, keeps it around for me. While the floor is low--you can't afford to invest more mana or take lands off the table (or as many as you need) or it just dies--the ceiling is real and interacts with a lot of different cards in cube in a really powerful way. It's not surprising that people come to vastly different conclusions considering how small all cube owners' sample sizes realistically are.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
There's some cool interactions with it, and I like it a lot in an opposition shell, or some random brew with a bunch of synergies... but in generic control decks, good stuff decks, ramp decks, or midrange decks without a lot of interaction, I don't think he's strong enough to see play.
Not a bad card by any stretch, but decided that blue's competition is too stiff, and there's an overabundance of 5+ mana finishers to choose from in cube.
No one in my play group fought for the card or expressed concern for my decision to cut him during the time frame she was on the bench for testing other cards.
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This just feels like a really inefficient Hornet Queen / Deep Forest Hermit / Deranged Hermit that occasionally has marginal upside with BFZ lands/ Fastbond/ Land Tax.
This really doesn't feel worth it at all.
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Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Agreed, I've never really liked Meloku even when he was decently on curve. I think part of his extended life support is from Kami Block Constructed. If looking for a replacement five-drop in blue, I suggest Multiple Choice- It makes a creature at 5 mana so I think it fills the slot quite nicely. Iymrith, Desert Doom might also be good.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Thanks for the very detailed explanation!
I could see Meloku's value improve with player experience.
I could definitely give him a try in the coming days - But i definitely opt for finishers with some form of built in removal.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Cheers,
rant
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That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing a power crept Meloku in the upcoming Kamigawa set.
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I think we should have more discussions like this. Cards like Consecrated Sphinx are much easier to explain and deploy (hence more popular).
I personally have played Affinity and Twin and I can attest these decks can be very difficult to play and require strong understanding of tempo.
The more recent take on win cons is they should have some form of built in removal/ disruption - i.e. Oko, Jace, Teferi etc. This is why I'm skeptical about cards like Meloku and Psychatog.
My biggest reluctance for Meloku is I had this notion that my control/ midrange top end should also be fatties for cheat/ reanimator - see Elesh Norn, Dragonlord Atarka, Grave Titan might fit the mold for all three, but other creatures aren't that flexible.
I realized this has been a very incorrect line of thinking and my cube at one point was filled with this glut of 5-6 CMC creatures that failed to perform any of those roles.
This line of thinking I really blame these new cards especially, Oko, Uro, Teferi, Ragavan etc. which are incredibly low costed, playable in almost any decks in those colors and are great in pretty much any matchup/ situation.
The main reason why I'm considering him is the number of Land spells as well as cycle lands that have been printed recently (and hopefully in the new set). Picking up lands could be a plus.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i