For those of you who play Mishra's Factory and/or Mutavault - are they making many of your final 40? I feel when I am aggro I don't want them because hitting those early color-providing lands is so important. In control I am usually splashing a third so don't want the colorless there either. Even at two colors if I have some spells with double-color requirements it is a stretch to include a colorless producing land that doesn't say Library of Alexandria at the top.
I would def play them in mono-color midrage/control or two-color with little to no double-colored mana requirements at 4 cc or less. I guess I just don't build many of those.
Maybe I should be considering them as part of my 23 rather than as a land?
What decks do they go in for you guys? Do you count them as land or in your 23?
I realize Mutavault has some tribal implications but I am mostly ignoring those for purposes of this discusssion.
It's rare that these cards miss my final 40 in much of anything, unless my mana is terrible or I have a bunch of other colorless lands that are more important. In a pinch, they can take up a spell slot unless you're already running more lands than you might need. But every deck, aggro, midrange and control ...they all want lands that double as win conditions. Manlands are just fantastic.
I like them best in control. Mishra's factory can block 2\2s all day.
I dont have to be sold on the awesomeness of manlands. It is the colorless aspect that is getting me. I am probably being too conservative with my manabase though.
Having to cast color intensive cards is most difficult in the early turns. Manlands are best either in the early turns or after a Wrath effect. So it may be that one game in ten you don't cast Ash Zealot because you opened with Mishra's, but then the Factory helps you put on pressure anyway. I wouldn't say I ALWAYS play them, but I feel like they main deck 75% of the time.
I dont play constructed but i searched modern decks for these cards on starcity to get a feel for what type constructed decks want them. Other than a couple randoms, only merfolk decks wanted Mutavault. I can see it being good there because of the tribal thing. Nothing plays factory.
I realize that they may not be good for constructed but are for cube. Modern aggro is probably much faster than cube aggro. So colorless land is easier for cube to deal with.
Any of you cubers also follow modern? Why are manlands good here but not there?
Manlands are good in Modern. Mishra's Factory isn't modern legal (otherwise it would likely be a good land in some decks, like Tron and stuff). The issue is the colorless mana. Manabases are so finely tuned for constructed that colorless lands hurt. Mutavault is both tribal and goes well into a mono-colored deck (thus its success in Merfolk). But Abzan decks love their manlands, and they play both Stirring Wildwood and Treetop Village (both of the ones it can). But it's a 3-color deck, so they're not going to run many (if any) colorless lands, with the exception of Gavony Township, which is used to break the mirror match (which comprised like 29% of the field) and the occasional Vault of the Archangel (which makes your Lingering Souls broken, again, for the mirror match). Burn would use Mutavault, but it runs the lowest number of lands it can while still supporting its critical CC spells like Eidolon of the Great Revel, Searing Blaze and Boros Charm. And most of the other aggro decks are 3-colors (like Zoo and the like), which is a prohibitive manabase for that card. 2-color aggro (like Infect) does run its relevant manland too, in Inkmoth Nexus. Faerie Conclave, Creeping Tar Pit and Celestial Colonnade are also great in the decks that can support them, and both Inkmoth and Blinkmoth Nexus are good lands in Affinity.
I dont play constructed but i searched modern decks for these cards on starcity to get a feel for what type constructed decks want them. Other than a couple randoms, only merfolk decks wanted Mutavault. I can see it being good there because of the tribal thing. Nothing plays factory.
I realize that they may not be good for constructed but are for cube. Modern aggro is probably much faster than cube aggro. So colorless land is easier for cube to deal with.
Any of you cubers also follow modern? Why are manlands good here but not there?
Factory isn't a huge player in Legacy right now, but it still sees play in decks, including:
Landstill (UR Landstill t8'd at GP NJ)
Pox
Stax
Occasionally in Stoneforge Mystic decks
The cards are great, but with the way both the Modern and Legacy metas have shifted to tricolor decks, most can't afford to run them. With Cube primarily spawning two-colored decks, these cards are slam-dunk inclusions.
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So it sounds like in constructed formats decks don't run colorless manlands unless they are monocolor or have overwhelming synergy (tribal, artifacts for affinity, infect).
But maybe they are fine in cube decks which tend to be slower?
So it sounds like in constructed formats decks don't run colorless manlands unless they are monocolor or have overwhelming synergy (tribal, artifacts for affinity, infect).
But maybe they are fine in cube decks which tend to be slower?
Like I said, back when Legacy was more two-color decks, more of them ran Factories. Early Stoneblade Builds, that packed just Blue and White, generally ran them, for example. The meta has just shifted more in favor of tricolor decks, and what colorless slots those decks can afford are generally given over to Wastelands. With Cube predominantly being two-colored, Mutavault and Mishra's are great again.
For a good comparison, look at standard while Mutavault was legal. Basically every deck packed them, from the monocolored ones to the tricolored ones.
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So it sounds like in constructed formats decks don't run colorless manlands unless they are monocolor or have overwhelming synergy (tribal, artifacts for affinity, infect).
But maybe they are fine in cube decks which tend to be slower?
Not exactly. It's more of a metagame decision than a speed decision. Even some of the 3-color decks in Modern play colorless lands, but they're different ones, because of their impact in the mirror match which makes up a huge percentage of the field.
The cube has an easier time fitting a colorless manland into the manabase, and the metagame is better suited for colorless manlands to be successful.
Also, Cube is a singleton format. In an environment where only one player gets to play one copy of the best colorless land available for a given strategy it is much more likely that the second, third, fourth-best land sees play. In a constructed environment, every player can play four of the best colorless lands available for a given strategy. Often that uses up all the available colorless land slots without giving the second-best land even a chance.
So it sounds like in constructed formats decks don't run colorless manlands unless they are monocolor or have overwhelming synergy (tribal, artifacts for affinity, infect).
But maybe they are fine in cube decks which tend to be slower?
I still see an occasional Mishra's Factory in the u/w Stoneblade builds around here.
I'm not super big on the cards in smallish powered cubes, but they are still fine. It has little to do with their power level.
Maybe my playgroup tries for greedy manabases a lot, but in general there's a lot going against colorless producing lands in a tight powered cube.
1) The average decks fixing tends to be good but not amazing. This means the cost of a colorless land vs a colored land is greater than in a constructed deck who's mana bases are very solid.
2) Powered cube gives a higher chance your deck has "pseudo lands" that produce colorless in the form of sol ring, mana crypt, off-colored moxes. Then there are also the REAL lands that produce colorless in wasteland and strip mine.
When you combine the two, the cost of hurting your mana base is a real downside that makes the cards GOOD on average instead of GREAT.
I chose not to include them (after some testing) because they don't support any archetype specifically and the factors above, but when they find a proper home they are very good and wouldn't fault anyone for running them.
These cards make most decks in my cube. The only times they don't is if someone is playing 3+ colors, or has a deck that just doesn't have room for the mana hit a colorless land could give you at the wrong time. I tend to avoid decks that would need super greedy mana, so if I have a Factory or a 'Vault in my 45, it's almost always making the cut.
I feel like I'm undervaluing these cards simply because I'm really averse to lands that don't produce color. How do people feel about these cards still? Would you put them in 3 color midrange or 2 color aggro decks?
I like factory a lot, never played with Mutavault but imagine its similar. They just have a lot of game to them for such a low opportunity cost.
It not making coloured mana is definitely a drawback and 3 colour decks can struggle to find space if they didn't get enough quality fixing or they already have the other colorless lands but aside from that I think it usually makes my final deck.
For me the main strength is how cheap they are to activate and the fact they come in untapped. I find factory is usually defensive since I'm only running him into combat if the coast is clear.
Between the two think I prefer factory over vault though; being an artifact and a 3/3 blocker is more valuable IMO than random tribal interactions.
Factory and Mutavault are still staple, IMO. I’ll play them in any deck 2-4 color deck as long as it doesn’t skew my mana base.
This. I have not run them after picking them as my mana ended up needing color symbols, but those situations are far and few inbetween. They are by far the best manlands IMO.
They are still both auto-includes, and they still both make the main deck in almost every single deck, barring some kind of mana-related catastrophe. I'd sooner run them as a spell than leave them out of my deck, if that option presents itself. Good god manlands are good.
Seems like opinions on these cards are still really high. I think I need to be trying them out more. As another gauge of how highly prized they are, around which pick range during a pack do you start to feel surprised that Mutavault/Mishra's Factory is still available?
Even then, people generally underrate them because they aren't flashy or anything. People see 2/2 and compare them to Creeping Tarpit or Celestial Colonnade but ignore the colorless aspect and cheap activation cost, along with Mishra's crucial 3/3 ability. Usually at the beginning of every cube period on MODO you can guarantee at least one free kill from someone not realizing Mishra's defensive application.
I would be surprised to wheel one, but these are typically available still at picks 6-8 in my drafts. It really depends on the quality of the pack though. I don't think many of the drafters in my group prize them enough to select them over most in-color options... but since they go in anything, they're a common "nothing else appeals to me or fits my colors/strategy" choice in the middle of a pack.
Mishra's Factory
For those of you who play Mishra's Factory and/or Mutavault - are they making many of your final 40? I feel when I am aggro I don't want them because hitting those early color-providing lands is so important. In control I am usually splashing a third so don't want the colorless there either. Even at two colors if I have some spells with double-color requirements it is a stretch to include a colorless producing land that doesn't say Library of Alexandria at the top.
I would def play them in mono-color midrage/control or two-color with little to no double-colored mana requirements at 4 cc or less. I guess I just don't build many of those.
Maybe I should be considering them as part of my 23 rather than as a land?
What decks do they go in for you guys? Do you count them as land or in your 23?
I realize Mutavault has some tribal implications but I am mostly ignoring those for purposes of this discusssion.
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I dont have to be sold on the awesomeness of manlands. It is the colorless aspect that is getting me. I am probably being too conservative with my manabase though.
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/993
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/23690
I realize that they may not be good for constructed but are for cube. Modern aggro is probably much faster than cube aggro. So colorless land is easier for cube to deal with.
Any of you cubers also follow modern? Why are manlands good here but not there?
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Faeries in modern also runs Mutavault and occasionally Faerie Conclave and/or Creeping Tarpit. Affinity runs Inkmoth Nexus and Blinkmoht Nexus, and Infect runs Blinkmoth Nexus. Celestial Colonnade and Creeping Tarpit are staples in their respective colors.
Factory isn't a huge player in Legacy right now, but it still sees play in decks, including:
Landstill (UR Landstill t8'd at GP NJ)
Pox
Stax
Occasionally in Stoneforge Mystic decks
The cards are great, but with the way both the Modern and Legacy metas have shifted to tricolor decks, most can't afford to run them. With Cube primarily spawning two-colored decks, these cards are slam-dunk inclusions.
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But maybe they are fine in cube decks which tend to be slower?
Like I said, back when Legacy was more two-color decks, more of them ran Factories. Early Stoneblade Builds, that packed just Blue and White, generally ran them, for example. The meta has just shifted more in favor of tricolor decks, and what colorless slots those decks can afford are generally given over to Wastelands. With Cube predominantly being two-colored, Mutavault and Mishra's are great again.
For a good comparison, look at standard while Mutavault was legal. Basically every deck packed them, from the monocolored ones to the tricolored ones.
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Not exactly. It's more of a metagame decision than a speed decision. Even some of the 3-color decks in Modern play colorless lands, but they're different ones, because of their impact in the mirror match which makes up a huge percentage of the field.
The cube has an easier time fitting a colorless manland into the manabase, and the metagame is better suited for colorless manlands to be successful.
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I still see an occasional Mishra's Factory in the u/w Stoneblade builds around here.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Maybe my playgroup tries for greedy manabases a lot, but in general there's a lot going against colorless producing lands in a tight powered cube.
1) The average decks fixing tends to be good but not amazing. This means the cost of a colorless land vs a colored land is greater than in a constructed deck who's mana bases are very solid.
2) Powered cube gives a higher chance your deck has "pseudo lands" that produce colorless in the form of sol ring, mana crypt, off-colored moxes. Then there are also the REAL lands that produce colorless in wasteland and strip mine.
When you combine the two, the cost of hurting your mana base is a real downside that makes the cards GOOD on average instead of GREAT.
I chose not to include them (after some testing) because they don't support any archetype specifically and the factors above, but when they find a proper home they are very good and wouldn't fault anyone for running them.
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It not making coloured mana is definitely a drawback and 3 colour decks can struggle to find space if they didn't get enough quality fixing or they already have the other colorless lands but aside from that I think it usually makes my final deck.
For me the main strength is how cheap they are to activate and the fact they come in untapped. I find factory is usually defensive since I'm only running him into combat if the coast is clear.
Between the two think I prefer factory over vault though; being an artifact and a 3/3 blocker is more valuable IMO than random tribal interactions.
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This. I have not run them after picking them as my mana ended up needing color symbols, but those situations are far and few inbetween. They are by far the best manlands IMO.
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I've seen library of Alexandria wheel in two different drafts, nothing is out of the question
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