Dimensions match other officially spoiled cards' standard dimensions (265 pixels width, 370 pixels height.)
I'm going to proxy it out in about 4 or so hours and I'll let you know if it needs to be tweaked.
I printed out the proxies in this post and as expected, they fit inside of the card dimensions perfectly. I'm going to put both pieces of paper in the sleeve and while I won't be able to make this week's weekly draft, I'll ask people how this implementation/card itself plays out.
If you use a perfect fit sleeve it will help withpeople not losing half of the card. Granted card+paper+paper+perfect fit+normal sleeve will be slightly thicker than your standard card.
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Calvin and Hobbes Cube Tutor
Dimensions match other officially spoiled cards' standard dimensions (265 pixels width, 370 pixels height.)
I'm going to proxy it out in about 4 or so hours and I'll let you know if it needs to be tweaked.
I printed out the proxies in this post and as expected, they fit inside of the card dimensions perfectly. I'm going to put both pieces of paper in the sleeve and while I won't be able to make this week's weekly draft, I'll ask people how this implementation/card itself plays out.
If you use a perfect fit sleeve it will help withpeople not losing half of the card. Granted card+paper+paper+perfect fit+normal sleeve will be slightly thicker than your standard card.
Hey, that worked, success! Much thanks.
[edit - wow, 3600 posts in... almost 10 years, time flies. ]
I can't see any reason why she isn't just an auto-include. The only question for me is whether I should treat her as a cmc3 creature or a planeswalker for cube balancing. Either way (or a mix of the two) is probably fine, but it's something I need to consider. The fact that her flip criteria is something that is relatively easy to fulfill and that she can be recurred really easily in black is a HUGE factor.
Maybe I'm missing something here. The new Liliana seems very slow and way too conditional to me. When you transform her, you trade two non-token creatures (herself and another) for a planeswalker and a 2/2 zombie token, which is a significant loss of board presence. Then you get a recurring reanimator effect, but it's slow and it disrupts your own hand as well as your opponent's. Sure, she can be reanimated as a creature, but if her ultimate purpose is to reanimate creatures, why not just use the reanimation effect on the creature you wanted in the first place without Liliana's CMC restriction?
Yes, if a lot of things go right, she can become very powerful, but while you're hoping all of these things go right by turn 4, your aggro opponent has burned Liliana and run you over, your control opponent has bounced your zombie token and run you over, and your midrange opponent is way ahead of you on the curve and is in the process of running you over. Her answer to this is hand disruption, but I'm not sure that's enough.
In my opinion, she's too slow for cube, but could really shine in limited formats, and she will do well in EDH/Tiny Leaders. She's not the worst top-deck, but as a 3-drop in black I'd rather play a Vampire Nighthawk.
In constructed, she could be interesting combo bait. Multiple copies of Liliana trigger each others' transform abilities and reanimate each other, making zombies in the process, and they don't legend each other out if they're in different states. Probably too wonky but someone will try it.
Side note: at some point someone will copy her with a Clone/Clever Impersonator and will then argue about what happens with the Clone's trigger. The way I read it, you can't transform the Clone, so you don't get the Planeswalker or the Zombie, but you can choose a new target to clone.
When you transform her, you trade two non-token creatures (herself and another) for a planeswalker and a 2/2 zombie token, which is a significant Loss of board presence.
The other creature was going to die anyways, and she can recur threats. So you have a 2/2 and a planeswalker in play instead of a 2/3 lifelink. And then the 'walker gives you another threat. Seems like an upgrade on board presence.
Maybe I'm missing something here. The new Liliana seems very slow and way too conditional to me. When you transform her, you trade two non-token creatures (herself and another) for a planeswalker and a 2/2 zombie token, which is a significant loss of board presence. Then you get a recurring reanimator effect, but it's slow and it disrupts your own hand as well as your opponent's. Sure, she can be reanimated as a creature, but if her ultimate purpose is to reanimate creatures, why not just use the reanimation effect on the creature you wanted in the first place without Liliana's CMC restriction?
Yes, if a lot of things go right, she can become very powerful, but while you're hoping all of these things go right by turn 4, your aggro opponent has burned Liliana and run you over, your control opponent has bounced your zombie token and run you over, and your midrange opponent is way ahead of you on the curve and is in the process of running you over. Her answer to this is hand disruption, but I'm not sure that's enough.
In my opinion, she's too slow for cube, but could really shine in limited formats, and she will do well in EDH/Tiny Leaders. She's not the worst top-deck, but as a 3-drop in black I'd rather play a Vampire Nighthawk.
In constructed, she could be interesting combo bait. Multiple copies of Liliana trigger each others' transform abilities and reanimate each other, making zombies in the process, and they don't legend each other out if they're in different states. Probably too wonky but someone will try it.
Side note: at some point someone will copy her with a Clone/Clever Impersonator and will then argue about what happens with the Clone's trigger. The way I read it, you can't transform the Clone, so you don't get the Planeswalker or the Zombie, but you can choose a new target to clone.
Sounds like you are analyzing her from a worst case scenario perspective.
If you are behind on board vs a midrange/ramp deck, she isn't going to do much. If you are trying to stabalizing vs a red agro player and they have a bunch of bolts in hand, she wont do anything. If your playing a control deck loaded with removal, she isn't going to do anything.
But Against all those decks she has a very strong upside in different contexts that more than mitigate her downside.
If the red agro player DOESN't have removal left, she's a lifelinking creature that is a solid blocker. That's exactly what you want to be doing vs red.
Vs the control player, they have to actively make sure your other creatures dont die, or she becomes a planeswalker that is going to rip their resources to shreds and put out a huge army of creatures while doing so. Ideally you put liliana in a deck with sac outlets so this is easy to happen.
Vs midrange, if you have a tempo advantage, they are going to be very scared to block your creatures or you get a solid creature generating engine that they may not be able to deal with. You break the symmetry by having cards like bloodghast, or reanimataion targets that you want to put into your graveyard.
I think people are overestimating her a bit, but no doubt she is very strong and has the potential to generate an absurd advantage in the right scenarios. Something that is very potent for a 3 mana spell.
I think her true power level is hard to really evaluate on paper due to the many different lines of play she can create. For instance: flash in Necromancy in response to a bolt to pull her out of the yard and transform when your other dude dies. All of a sudden you have a 2/2 and a planeswalker with 5 loyalty. ENDLESS POSSIBILITIES MWAHAH! I love it that she has a built in way to break the symmetry of her +2. I really hope the other creature/walkers are cubable. Who knows, maybe we even get one for 2 mana... we can dream!
Absolutely. If all five are cubeable, which is very possible (since pushing Magic Origins is very expected), then black will gain a good amount of power by being able to use reanimate spells on walkers.
This doesn't seem good for cube. Only conditionally a Planeswalker, requires jumping through silly hoops to activate Turn 3, and is wide open for any type of removal without added value.
Sweet way of representing the flavor, and playable in its best-case scenario, but that doesn't seem reliable enough to warrant a cube slot, especially with the logistical issues of double-faced cards.
What logistical issues? You just turn the card over in the sleeve. Issue solved.
I will admit it's slightly annoying drafting with new people who want to know what the walker does before they draft the card. I've had the same problem with huntmaster
Not that it lasts long, especially if you don't have a new/inconsistent group, but it's something to keep in mind.
for EG: given my cube has custom cards, I try to keep everything else as simple as I reasonably can, since basically no matter who I'm drafting with they'll be spending half the packs reading new cards anyways. Huntmaster is worth that cost of complexity, and I think this Liliana is too.
Reckless Waif though? I'll just add something else
DFC's are anooying in double-sleeved cases, but no one has ever complained about garruk relentless. I feel like people have a higher tolerance to the annoyingness of DFC when the card is just really cool on its own.
I just sleeve up the checklist cards instead and have the dfcs sitting in clear sleeves. That way when you play the checklist card, you can just grab the dfc and put it on top similar to the morph tokens. Dont have to be annoyed pulling it in and out of sleeves.
got some testing for the new liliana today. The deck that played it was an orzohv STAX deck that placed 2nd/8th. This is what my drafter had to say about it.
"It closed out the game with winter orb by locking his draws I didn't get to cast it much other than that. It seems worse than lili of the veil, but that's obscenely strong. The reanimation seems strong in the right deck."
Playing against it, it did seem to clearly be the second best black planeswalker. I really like it.
For DFC concerns, you can use 2 copies of the card and just switch between each one, or if you are lazy use a token as one side, its what my drafter did today.
I don't find it annoying to remove the card from sleeves. You just ...turn it over. It takes like one second. Jeez.
Some people I've Cubed with have had difficulty with Garruk Relentless flipping because they can't manage double sleeved cards. That's how my first foil Garruk got bent in half. Now I have the one that people draft and another in the Tokens section for the person that gets him to grab and play with. No more issues that way.
I personally don't understand the issue, though. I've never had a problem flipping a DFC even when it was double sleeved.
I also have a second side of my DFC cards on my token section, I don't want other players taking my sleeves off. I would like to make the second side proxies look better though, now they are just printed on a normal paper and inside a perfect fit sleeve in over a magic card.
I think people are overestimating her a bit, but no doubt she is very strong and has the potential to generate an absurd advantage in the right scenarios. Something that is very potent for a 3 mana spell.
I completely agree with this entire conclusion. She has a lot of potential, but a lot of things have to go your way for her to really shine. In other words, she is probably a well-balanced planeswalker... very dangerous if left unchecked, but not impossible to deal with. Also, in terms of cube, black has some very strong 3-drops, but not so many that she won't find a good home. If I pull one in a booster pack I'll definitely give it a try in my EDH cube. Probably a card I'm going to appreciate more once I lose against it.
I think she's very strong. Being a creature that may turn into a planeswalker can even be better than being always a 'walker in some situations. The worst case for a walker that doesn't protect itself is when you have no creatures out, and it dies after a single + activation.
Liliana worst case is also when you have no other creatures out, but then you'll be happy that she's a creature herself, and not a completely embarrassing one either. A 2/3 lifelink for three can at least do some good work against aggro.
If you do have other creatures out, she is lightning rod to protect them from targeted removal, just not from Wraths (kind of like Kira, Great Glass-Spinner). She also puts pressure on the board by making blocking and trading worse for your opponent.
When you have a way to make her flip by yourself, she provides very good value. (For the ways to make her flip it was also mentioned that you could use a spell or 187 creature to kill one of your own, but that I don't think is going to happen often. It's not that important to make her flip that you should spend a card and a creature on it. But there are still many other good ways to make her flip, like sac outlets.)
And you can recur her. Both sacrifice effects and recursion are very common in her color.
It's a card with high potential, great synergies and low risk.
I played against her last night and it definitely had an impact on the game. My opponent had something in the graveyard I didn't want him to get back, so it made it really hard for me to attack, since he could just chump block with something and get his Lilianas going.
If you use a perfect fit sleeve it will help withpeople not losing half of the card. Granted card+paper+paper+perfect fit+normal sleeve will be slightly thicker than your standard card.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
Hey, that worked, success! Much thanks.
[edit - wow, 3600 posts in... almost 10 years, time flies. ]
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
She's sweet. I would be surprised if no one even tries her out.
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Yes, if a lot of things go right, she can become very powerful, but while you're hoping all of these things go right by turn 4, your aggro opponent has burned Liliana and run you over, your control opponent has bounced your zombie token and run you over, and your midrange opponent is way ahead of you on the curve and is in the process of running you over. Her answer to this is hand disruption, but I'm not sure that's enough.
In my opinion, she's too slow for cube, but could really shine in limited formats, and she will do well in EDH/Tiny Leaders. She's not the worst top-deck, but as a 3-drop in black I'd rather play a Vampire Nighthawk.
In constructed, she could be interesting combo bait. Multiple copies of Liliana trigger each others' transform abilities and reanimate each other, making zombies in the process, and they don't legend each other out if they're in different states. Probably too wonky but someone will try it.
Side note: at some point someone will copy her with a Clone/Clever Impersonator and will then argue about what happens with the Clone's trigger. The way I read it, you can't transform the Clone, so you don't get the Planeswalker or the Zombie, but you can choose a new target to clone.
The other creature was going to die anyways, and she can recur threats. So you have a 2/2 and a planeswalker in play instead of a 2/3 lifelink. And then the 'walker gives you another threat. Seems like an upgrade on board presence.
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thats my cube
Sounds like you are analyzing her from a worst case scenario perspective.
If you are behind on board vs a midrange/ramp deck, she isn't going to do much. If you are trying to stabalizing vs a red agro player and they have a bunch of bolts in hand, she wont do anything. If your playing a control deck loaded with removal, she isn't going to do anything.
But Against all those decks she has a very strong upside in different contexts that more than mitigate her downside.
If the red agro player DOESN't have removal left, she's a lifelinking creature that is a solid blocker. That's exactly what you want to be doing vs red.
Vs the control player, they have to actively make sure your other creatures dont die, or she becomes a planeswalker that is going to rip their resources to shreds and put out a huge army of creatures while doing so. Ideally you put liliana in a deck with sac outlets so this is easy to happen.
Vs midrange, if you have a tempo advantage, they are going to be very scared to block your creatures or you get a solid creature generating engine that they may not be able to deal with. You break the symmetry by having cards like bloodghast, or reanimataion targets that you want to put into your graveyard.
I think people are overestimating her a bit, but no doubt she is very strong and has the potential to generate an absurd advantage in the right scenarios. Something that is very potent for a 3 mana spell.
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Sweet way of representing the flavor, and playable in its best-case scenario, but that doesn't seem reliable enough to warrant a cube slot, especially with the logistical issues of double-faced cards.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I will admit it's slightly annoying drafting with new people who want to know what the walker does before they draft the card. I've had the same problem with huntmaster
Not that it lasts long, especially if you don't have a new/inconsistent group, but it's something to keep in mind.
for EG: given my cube has custom cards, I try to keep everything else as simple as I reasonably can, since basically no matter who I'm drafting with they'll be spending half the packs reading new cards anyways. Huntmaster is worth that cost of complexity, and I think this Liliana is too.
Reckless Waif though? I'll just add something else
thats my cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
"It closed out the game with winter orb by locking his draws I didn't get to cast it much other than that. It seems worse than lili of the veil, but that's obscenely strong. The reanimation seems strong in the right deck."
Playing against it, it did seem to clearly be the second best black planeswalker. I really like it.
For DFC concerns, you can use 2 copies of the card and just switch between each one, or if you are lazy use a token as one side, its what my drafter did today.
thats my cube
Some people I've Cubed with have had difficulty with Garruk Relentless flipping because they can't manage double sleeved cards. That's how my first foil Garruk got bent in half. Now I have the one that people draft and another in the Tokens section for the person that gets him to grab and play with. No more issues that way.
I personally don't understand the issue, though. I've never had a problem flipping a DFC even when it was double sleeved.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I completely agree with this entire conclusion. She has a lot of potential, but a lot of things have to go your way for her to really shine. In other words, she is probably a well-balanced planeswalker... very dangerous if left unchecked, but not impossible to deal with. Also, in terms of cube, black has some very strong 3-drops, but not so many that she won't find a good home. If I pull one in a booster pack I'll definitely give it a try in my EDH cube. Probably a card I'm going to appreciate more once I lose against it.
Liliana worst case is also when you have no other creatures out, but then you'll be happy that she's a creature herself, and not a completely embarrassing one either. A 2/3 lifelink for three can at least do some good work against aggro.
If you do have other creatures out, she is lightning rod to protect them from targeted removal, just not from Wraths (kind of like Kira, Great Glass-Spinner). She also puts pressure on the board by making blocking and trading worse for your opponent.
When you have a way to make her flip by yourself, she provides very good value. (For the ways to make her flip it was also mentioned that you could use a spell or 187 creature to kill one of your own, but that I don't think is going to happen often. It's not that important to make her flip that you should spend a card and a creature on it. But there are still many other good ways to make her flip, like sac outlets.)
And you can recur her. Both sacrifice effects and recursion are very common in her color.
It's a card with high potential, great synergies and low risk.