What kind of decks does she usually see play in, or get cut from apparently, in your cube? I'm just wondering if there is a play style difference that makes her wonderful in ours and terrible in yours.
Midrange decks with a stax element, most often. She doesn't make the cut in aggro, obviously. We don't see a whole lot of black control decks here so I don't have a lot of data of her performance in that type of deck.
I never said she was terrible though, I literally rated her performance 'ok to good'. It's just that we expect more from cube cards, and the other flipwalkers have performed *much* better.
Edit - I should probably mention that our cube uses Rochester draft, which results in insanely good pools (think only a handful of cards that wouldn't fit in your deck). Some cards just don't work well enough in such an environment.
The two biggest differences are the draft format, my cube is drafted normally with 5-8 people, and Liliana performs best in an aggro deck. Honestly your decks might be tighter but I don't think that alone explains it.Her -x is insanely good when you fire it off every turn to bring back a 1 drop, that's how our black aggro works anyway, just recur threats until you win. And my last draft she won me the aggro mirror in the finals. Just trying to explain why she is good for us, as she has been as stellar as the other flip walkers.
Assume a pool with great fixing (say, a City of Brass, 2 duals and 2 fetches), 6 aggro 1-drops and 6 2-drops, multiple anthem effects (Glorious Anthem and 2 creatures with battle cry) and at least 3 more great non-creature 3-drops (let's say Tangle Wire and 2 Swords). Would you include Liliana in your build? What cards would you leave in the sideboard to include her?
Obviously we didn't think she'd be good enough for a slot in such a deck, but are we wrong? This is the kind of quality you get in an 8-seat Rochester draft. Thanks for your input
Assuming my fixing is good enough and I can handle all the WW and BB costs, I'm cutting Exalted Angel from that deck. First, it plays more like a 4-drop than a 3-drop. Second, it takes up two of my turns on one card, when I'd rather be playing Blade Splicer or similar on turn three and then playing an anthem effect on turn four. So yeah, if I had to cut something from a list like that to get to 23 playables, it'd be Exalted Angel. I'd definitely play Liliana there.
The question wasn't, which single cards of this list would you cut, but rather which would you include - I assume you wouldn't play 9 3-drops in an aggro deck. Personally, I'd go for 4-6 3-drops (creatures + non-creatures) in an aggro deck.
Then I think it's too hard to evaluate based on the information provided. I don't know how heavily black or white I am. How many of my 1-drops are white and how many are black? Are any of my 2-drops priced at WW or BB? No matter what my land package looks like in this deck, those things still influence the cards I choose to put in my final 40. If I have four Savannah Lions variants and only two Carnophage variants and my 2-drops lean toward the same ratio, then I'm probably looking to cut the 3-drops that rely on black mana heavily here. In that example, I'd probably play Drana based on power level in an aggressive deck and cut Liliana just to help my manabase out. And in either instance, I'd still be cutting Exalted Angel from a deck like that.
You should be more specific in this example as to the 25-30 cards we're working with in this pool to find out if Liliana makes it to the final build. The cards that get cut, including Liliana, depend entirely on the rest of the pool. The generic answer is that, yes, in most Orzhov aggro pools, Lilana makes the cut.
Assume a pool with great fixing (say, a City of Brass, 2 duals and 2 fetches), 6 aggro 1-drops and 6 2-drops, multiple anthem effects (Glorious Anthem and 2 creatures with battle cry) and at least 3 more great non-creature 3-drops (let's say Tangle Wire and 2 Swords). Would you include Liliana in your build? What cards would you leave in the sideboard to include her?
Obviously we didn't think she'd be good enough for a slot in such a deck, but are we wrong? This is the kind of quality you get in an 8-seat Rochester draft. Thanks for your input
I would definitely play her over Mardu Strike Leader and Exalted Angel. After that it would depend on what my 1 and 2 drops were and what my game plan would be.
Having sac outlets and cards that can benefit from self-discard plays a big role in determining if she makes the final 40. Do you have cards that can use her zombie token (Kalitas, Gravecrawler, etc)? And evaluating the potential value of lifelink too (mono-red open in draft? Multiple self-damage effects? etc). It's too hard to evaluate her value without context.
Like a white centric build as it gives a great mana base, which I value a lot in agressive decks.
Cards that I was on the fence about not including:
Oblivion Ring (3 mana removal is eh, but deck is light on removal, and can hit mana rocks to increase effectiveness of armageddon/orb)
Glorius anthem (not a huge fan of the card in general, but I like the synergies)
Cards that I was on the fence about including:
Drana (double black and stiff competition in 3 slot, but she certainly belongs there for power)
Hymn to tourach (a bomb, but double black, would have to change mana base for)
Gravecrawler (1 drop, but no ways to recur, not much removal to push through the 2/1 for 1, black is 2nd color, multiple moxes giving you more turn 1 plays outside of a 1 drop)
Bonesplinter (not much evasion, but a strong card)
Snuff out (a bit removal lighter than I like to be)
Liliana is not anywhere close to making it in this deck
Out of boredom (and also sheer interest) I threw that pool together in MTGO so I could have the visual to work with. This is what I came up with.
I didn't include Liliana here because it made more sense to keep my mana light on the black symbols. She's good, but her ability is largely irrelevant here. I can't really take advantage of the one token and I can't easily flip her when I want to. I kept the theme of this deck to aggressive tokens with a little resource denial (Mana Tithe, Winter Orb, Tangle Wire, Armageddon). I left the two Swords in the sideboard because I don't think they're really needed here. I'd rather have the mass pump from Glorious Anthem and the resource denial of Tangle Wire. They can always come in vs decks where they will shine. The same for Phyrexian Revoker and Snuff Out. There are arguments to be made for Lacerator vs Gravecrawler. Is it worth the one life per turn to be able to block with your 2/2? Maybe, maybe not.
Just curious if anyone else who had recently cut her was considering adding her back in now with the new rule changes. It's a cool card and I'm eager to put her back in!
I've been meaning to replace her once something better came along due to the Liliana saturation. The new PW rules give her a new leg to stand on so I won't be as in a hurry to replace her. She's safe until the next best 3-drop comes along (or other black card where I wouldn't be able to find a cut).
This card is so good in the aristocrat deck that we think we won't ever cut it. Real staple for us. Unless the cube goes down to like 450, there's absolutely no chance it gets cut in the short term. But we do get it for others who don't really run the crats package. Some cards, like this, Living Death or even Entomb, get a hole new dimension when you do support the archetype. For us, it's still a strong crats pillar.
Liliana Heretical Healer is insane the Persist/ Aristocrats deck.
I might bring her back for her ability to interact with the opponent's hand.
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The two biggest differences are the draft format, my cube is drafted normally with 5-8 people, and Liliana performs best in an aggro deck. Honestly your decks might be tighter but I don't think that alone explains it.Her -x is insanely good when you fire it off every turn to bring back a 1 drop, that's how our black aggro works anyway, just recur threats until you win. And my last draft she won me the aggro mirror in the finals. Just trying to explain why she is good for us, as she has been as stellar as the other flip walkers.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Hypothetical question. Let's say you draft a pool with the following 3-drops:
Liliana, Heretical Healer
Flesh Carver
Drana, Liberator of Malakir
Mardu Strike Leader
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Exalted Angel
Blade Splicer
Assume a pool with great fixing (say, a City of Brass, 2 duals and 2 fetches), 6 aggro 1-drops and 6 2-drops, multiple anthem effects (Glorious Anthem and 2 creatures with battle cry) and at least 3 more great non-creature 3-drops (let's say Tangle Wire and 2 Swords). Would you include Liliana in your build? What cards would you leave in the sideboard to include her?
Obviously we didn't think she'd be good enough for a slot in such a deck, but are we wrong? This is the kind of quality you get in an 8-seat Rochester draft. Thanks for your input
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You should be more specific in this example as to the 25-30 cards we're working with in this pool to find out if Liliana makes it to the final build. The cards that get cut, including Liliana, depend entirely on the rest of the pool. The generic answer is that, yes, in most Orzhov aggro pools, Lilana makes the cut.
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I would definitely play her over Mardu Strike Leader and Exalted Angel. After that it would depend on what my 1 and 2 drops were and what my game plan would be.
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Ok, how about this pool:
1 City of Brass
1 Godless Shrine
1 Scrubland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
1 Snuff Out
1 Champion of the Parish
1 Gravecrawler
1 Mother of Runes
1 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1 Student of Warfare
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Mana Tithe
1 Path to Exile
1 Accorder Paladin
1 Bloodchin Rager
1 Carrier Thrall
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Precinct Captain
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Winter Orb
1 Blade Splicer
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
1 Flesh Carver
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Mardu Strike Leader
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Tangle Wire
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Sewer Nemesis
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Armageddon
1 Reveillark
1 Grave Titan
4 random off-color cards
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1 City of Brass
1 Godless Shrine
1 Scrubland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Mox Pearl
4 Swamps
7 Plains
1 Mox Diamond
1 Champion of the Parish
1 Mother of Runes
1 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1 Student of Warfare
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Path to Exile
1 Accorder Paladin
1 Blood-chin Rager
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Precinct Captain
1 Winter Orb
1 Flesh Carver
1 Mardu Strike Leader
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Glorious Anthem
1 Oblivion ring
1 Tangle Wire
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Armageddon
Like a white centric build as it gives a great mana base, which I value a lot in agressive decks.
Cards that I was on the fence about not including:
Oblivion Ring (3 mana removal is eh, but deck is light on removal, and can hit mana rocks to increase effectiveness of armageddon/orb)
Glorius anthem (not a huge fan of the card in general, but I like the synergies)
Cards that I was on the fence about including:
Drana (double black and stiff competition in 3 slot, but she certainly belongs there for power)
Hymn to tourach (a bomb, but double black, would have to change mana base for)
Gravecrawler (1 drop, but no ways to recur, not much removal to push through the 2/1 for 1, black is 2nd color, multiple moxes giving you more turn 1 plays outside of a 1 drop)
Bonesplinter (not much evasion, but a strong card)
Snuff out (a bit removal lighter than I like to be)
Liliana is not anywhere close to making it in this deck
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I didn't include Liliana here because it made more sense to keep my mana light on the black symbols. She's good, but her ability is largely irrelevant here. I can't really take advantage of the one token and I can't easily flip her when I want to. I kept the theme of this deck to aggressive tokens with a little resource denial (Mana Tithe, Winter Orb, Tangle Wire, Armageddon). I left the two Swords in the sideboard because I don't think they're really needed here. I'd rather have the mass pump from Glorious Anthem and the resource denial of Tangle Wire. They can always come in vs decks where they will shine. The same for Phyrexian Revoker and Snuff Out. There are arguments to be made for Lacerator vs Gravecrawler. Is it worth the one life per turn to be able to block with your 2/2? Maybe, maybe not.
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I might bring her back for her ability to interact with the opponent's hand.
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