Seems pretty good. 6/6 haste flier for 2RR is going to end the game (or bring it super close) in a lot of matchups with only one attack, and waiting an extra turn doesn't seem awful either. It's a red 4, so there's like barely any room for it, but it also lives through wildfire so that's appealing. This is a tough one, I definitely like it though.
I almost view this as a creature version of Fireblast. In an aggro deck, it ought to just end the game. Living through Wildfire is cool, too.
Currently I run Avalache Riders and was going to test out Hazoret in its place, but I am not paying for that card after the spike. Maybe I'll test this instead.
I do wish it just couldn't attack instead of tapping.
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I didn't even think about living through Wildfire because it's a 4-drop. I think this competes fairly well with all the Hellrider variants. I'm currently running Hellrider / Hazoret / Koth and I can definitely see myself testing this over one of them.
I'm currently running Hellrider / Hazoret / Koth and I can definitely see myself testing this over one of them.
If this ended up being good enough, I would prob replace Hazoret from that trio. Hazoret is easily the least consistent at doing what it does, and while it has other applications it is a bit slow in getting there. I've liked Hazoret, but it's def replaceable.
It's Goldnight Castigator with a few niche downsides (worse against Dismember and Toxic Deluge, can't ever block, less damage after two combat steps), but crucially it doesn't double everything that you take.
I don't think this is better than Hero/Hellrider/Koth or any of the other good hastey 4-drops we have access to now. It averages 3 damage/turn because of its drawback, and Hero and Hellrider often represent 6+ damage per attack step without "exerting" themselves. I think this is a pass outside of some multiplayer FFA cubes.
It's Goldnight Castigator with a few niche downsides (worse against Dismember and Toxic Deluge, can't ever block, less damage after two combat steps), but crucially it doesn't double everything that you take.
Seems really strong, but narrow.
EDIT: Misread this as a 6/6, my bad!
I'm pretty a-ok with my 4 mana agressive curve toppers not blocking. Goldnight was awful in practice, and this seems so much better. And for a red agressive 4 drop, having playability in another red archetype reduces the narrowness. I'm more concerned with how it compares to cards just removed like Hero of Oxid Ridge and others, Goldnight is not what this is competing with.
I am excited by this card. Very close to the full burn mode of Fiery Confluence. Should end the game most of the time, but if it fails to do that the 6/5 body left behind will still require an answer. A nice follow up for an opponent's Moat. I didn't have the time yet to test Hazoret properly, but the cut will be between her and Hero of Oxid Ridge.
I didn't even think about living through Wildfire because it's a 4-drop. I think this competes fairly well with all the Hellrider variants. I'm currently running Hellrider / Hazoret / Koth and I can definitely see myself testing this over one of them.
The hellkite hits harder initially than any of the cards you mentioned but the difference is that they all have late game reach with direct damage. Hellrider might be the weakest of the three but I think i still like him more then this dragon.
I definitely like Hellrider and Koth more, but the evasion, resiliency, and diversity makes me currently like this over Hero. The average damage per turn may be less than some other cards, but this offers a lot of burst damage and durability. If anything I'd test it over Hazoret, but she's been testing pretty well.
I think this is definitely worth a test run at 720. Yes, it only averages three damage a turn, and it probably feels pretty bad when they've got a blocker to throw in front of it. But getting there for six and leaving behind something that they eventually have to spend resources to answer isn't a bad return on four mana. Often you only need the first attack to get your opponent down into "eventually I'll draw enough burn to kill them" range.
My list still plays Thunderbreak Regent as its weakest four-drop, so this might get a spin over that rather than Hazoret. Or I might pull something like Devil's Play that's starting to look a little stale.
Very solid card but I'm not sure how favorably it competes with the other red curve toppers.
There are definitly situations where this is better (IE vs green), but some situations where it will be embarrassing... (lingering souls/bitter blossom).
While the embarrassing moments are uncommon, it's enough to make me pause.
I'm going to test it over hazoret , but partly because I enjoy the flavour of having 3 massive hasty dragons in my red section.
Fwiw I first evaluated it as not good enough as it's 3 damage a turn.. but
6 hasted damage might be enough to end the game on the spot. And 12 over 3 turns will very likely do it (in a red deck).
Making the average "effective" damage output closer to 4, as well as some % to win the game out right.. that a 4/4 haste couldn't do.
Realistically, what is it averaging per turn in practice? I don't think 3 is the right answer despite the obvious math, since there are going to be a number of games that end after 1-2 attacks from this guy, and winning on the second attack means he's actually averaging 4 damage a turn in that game. And then, there's the evasion aspect of this vs the other red 4 drops, so boards that might stonewall a koth or even a hellrider despite the reach might be less of a problem for this dragon.
The real question is, how much higher (or lower) than 3 is the average going to be? If he kills in one shot in 2 games, 2 shots in 2, and then in the fifth he doesn't get a chance to untap again before the game is over, then he averages 4.2 damage/attack. (6/1, 6/1, 12/3, 12/3, 6/2 = 42/10) Is that good enough? I'm not sure, and those numbers are fairly arbitrary, AND they ignore chump blocking (which is not abundant with fliers but certainly not irrelevant), but ultimately I don't think we're going to actually see that average of 3/turn.
Realistically, what is it averaging per turn in practice? I don't think 3 is the right answer despite the obvious math, since there are going to be a number of games that end after 1-2 attacks from this guy, and winning on the second attack means he's actually averaging 4 damage a turn in that game. And then, there's the evasion aspect of this vs the other red 4 drops, so boards that might stonewall a koth or even a hellrider despite the reach might be less of a problem for this dragon.
The real question is, how much higher (or lower) than 3 is the average going to be? If he kills in one shot in 2 games, 2 shots in 2, and then in the fifth he doesn't get a chance to untap again before the game is over, then he averages 4.2 damage/attack. (6/1, 6/1, 12/3, 12/3, 6/2 = 42/10) Is that good enough? I'm not sure, and those numbers are fairly arbitrary, AND they ignore chump blocking (which is not abundant with fliers but certainly not irrelevant), but ultimately I don't think we're going to actually see that average of 3/turn.
Being able to control that initial swing, to time it up when they don't have a blocker available, is going to bump that average higher too. Then if they can't remove it, they can try to have blockers available for the second pass... but you're playing red and there aren't a lot of high toughness fliers, so it's not unlikely that you'll be able to clear a path then too.
This card appears fantastic to me. While it was another time when Rorix Bladewing was both a favored card in both cube and constructed formats (pre-Titan, pre-Thundermaw era), it is certainly still a formidable force and not too far outside the realm of playability. Assuming you make the necessary land drops to drop both cards on curve, this card only falls behind Rorix's damage output after FOUR swings from the legendary dragon. They both deal 18 in the same time frame, the difference being this costs a whole 1R less to cast, opening it up to a slew of additional deck archetypes. Like Metamind said, this will often mimic Fiery Confluence's mode of 4-mana: kill target opponent.
Oh, and I'll never understand how people on here don't show more love for Hellrider. Outside of maybe Restoration Angel and Bloodbraid Elf, I put the card as the best 4-drop creature in cube, much less out of red's 4cc options. That card really does just end game after game after game...
6/5, flying, haste, must attack if able, isn't able to attack every other turn. I mean this really puts Archwing Dragon to shame that's for certain. This could well be a replacement for Blistering Firecat for me. I think this will more reliably get in for 6 then Firecat does since creatures on the ground can absorb the Firecat's damage and flying is useful evasion. Also, you don't have to sacrifice this. I also like that this can be a blocker at least once if cast post-combat.
My main concerns with this guy are spirits/faeries/etc. Flying weenies that will chump this for days. You can't chump the firecat at all, but staying on the board is a big upside.
I agree with you. Heelrider is a hell of a magic card. However, while I don't know about other's opinion, I think they are comparable in some way. In fact, they both pursue the same goal : help RDW wins the game. In that sense, I think people wouldn't want too many RDW finisher in their cube, so that's why they bring up the idea of cutting one of themm for that dragon. Some refers to Hellrider, while others talks about Hero of Oxid Ridge. Personally, I think those last two are way better that Territorial Hellkite, but it's just an opinion I suppose.
I thought it was completely unreal before I realized it can't hit walkers. As is, I still like it more than something like Hero of Oxid Ridge. Hit's harder in almost every scenario, more evasive, harder to kill. I haven't played with Hazoreth yet, but I'd imagine this is better than that as well.
Also I like playing U/R tempo decks, and this combos quite nicely with Pester/Exarch.
Also I like playing U/R tempo decks, and this combos quite nicely with Pester/Exarch.
How? Am I missing something here? It still can't attack if it's untapped if it attacked your opponent last turn.
It can attack, and could attack Planeswalkers if you so desired. This is a trigger that goes on the stack during the begin combat phase. You let the trigger resolve, it taps, you flash in Exarch/Pestermite untap it and attack where you want.
Big haste creature that "exerts" itself in 1v1. Thoughts?
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Currently I run Avalache Riders and was going to test out Hazoret in its place, but I am not paying for that card after the spike. Maybe I'll test this instead.
I do wish it just couldn't attack instead of tapping.
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If this ended up being good enough, I would prob replace Hazoret from that trio. Hazoret is easily the least consistent at doing what it does, and while it has other applications it is a bit slow in getting there. I've liked Hazoret, but it's def replaceable.
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Seems really strong, but narrow.
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EDIT: Misread this as a 6/6, my bad!
I'm pretty a-ok with my 4 mana agressive curve toppers not blocking. Goldnight was awful in practice, and this seems so much better. And for a red agressive 4 drop, having playability in another red archetype reduces the narrowness. I'm more concerned with how it compares to cards just removed like Hero of Oxid Ridge and others, Goldnight is not what this is competing with.
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My list still plays Thunderbreak Regent as its weakest four-drop, so this might get a spin over that rather than Hazoret. Or I might pull something like Devil's Play that's starting to look a little stale.
There are definitly situations where this is better (IE vs green), but some situations where it will be embarrassing... (lingering souls/bitter blossom).
While the embarrassing moments are uncommon, it's enough to make me pause.
I'm going to test it over hazoret , but partly because I enjoy the flavour of having 3 massive hasty dragons in my red section.
Fwiw I first evaluated it as not good enough as it's 3 damage a turn.. but
6 hasted damage might be enough to end the game on the spot. And 12 over 3 turns will very likely do it (in a red deck).
Making the average "effective" damage output closer to 4, as well as some % to win the game out right.. that a 4/4 haste couldn't do.
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The real question is, how much higher (or lower) than 3 is the average going to be? If he kills in one shot in 2 games, 2 shots in 2, and then in the fifth he doesn't get a chance to untap again before the game is over, then he averages 4.2 damage/attack. (6/1, 6/1, 12/3, 12/3, 6/2 = 42/10) Is that good enough? I'm not sure, and those numbers are fairly arbitrary, AND they ignore chump blocking (which is not abundant with fliers but certainly not irrelevant), but ultimately I don't think we're going to actually see that average of 3/turn.
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Being able to control that initial swing, to time it up when they don't have a blocker available, is going to bump that average higher too. Then if they can't remove it, they can try to have blockers available for the second pass... but you're playing red and there aren't a lot of high toughness fliers, so it's not unlikely that you'll be able to clear a path then too.
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Oh, and I'll never understand how people on here don't show more love for Hellrider. Outside of maybe Restoration Angel and Bloodbraid Elf, I put the card as the best 4-drop creature in cube, much less out of red's 4cc options. That card really does just end game after game after game...
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My main concerns with this guy are spirits/faeries/etc. Flying weenies that will chump this for days. You can't chump the firecat at all, but staying on the board is a big upside.
Man, that kills the thing! Don't think I like that much after reading this... Shame on you Territorial Hellkite!
I agree with you. Heelrider is a hell of a magic card. However, while I don't know about other's opinion, I think they are comparable in some way. In fact, they both pursue the same goal : help RDW wins the game. In that sense, I think people wouldn't want too many RDW finisher in their cube, so that's why they bring up the idea of cutting one of themm for that dragon. Some refers to Hellrider, while others talks about Hero of Oxid Ridge. Personally, I think those last two are way better that Territorial Hellkite, but it's just an opinion I suppose.
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Also I like playing U/R tempo decks, and this combos quite nicely with Pester/Exarch.
How? Am I missing something here? It still can't attack if it's untapped if it attacked your opponent last turn.
It can attack, and could attack Planeswalkers if you so desired. This is a trigger that goes on the stack during the begin combat phase. You let the trigger resolve, it taps, you flash in Exarch/Pestermite untap it and attack where you want.
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