It doesn't help that there are a million great mono-white options and a lot of the good mono-blue options are 3 drops as well (Man-o-war, clique, TNN). Azorius tempo decks shouldn't lack for options at the three spot.
Spell queller is fantastic but it is potentially the most crowded slot in all of cube...
I used to be unsure if it was better or worse than reflector Mage, but after a ton more experience , I think reflector Mage is the clear winner.
I'm personally less high on supreme verdict/detention sphere than most , but I think it's a bit cube specific.
Terminus in a deck with a couple library manipulation effects (brainstorm , senseis top, Jace the mind sculptor) is by far the best wrath... so in my cube running double brainstorm, I have no "need" for verdict.
Though, I'd be surprised if anything but the most Agro oriented cube , couldn't substitute verdict with a slightly worse wrath and still be fine (terminus/fumigate)
Though, I'd be surprised if anything but the most Agro oriented cube , couldn't substitute verdict with a slightly worse wrath and still be fine (terminus/fumigate)
That's my plan for now. UW control isn't a popular deck for us, but people seem to like playing UW tempo, so I feel fine keeping both Geist of Saint Traft and Reflector Mage, and moving the wrath effect into white. One more mana might make the difference, but guild slots are just so tight and this new card is sweet.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I don't think Terminus (in singleton cubes) or any of the 5cc wraths can substitute for what the difference between 4 and 5 mana means in practical application. It really makes a huge difference. It's the reason why all the 4cc sweepers are universally playable and there aren't any 5cc sweepers in the cube. There are only 4 cards that kill every creature for 4 mana, and I can't see any of them being expendable in this format any time soon. And the more playable aggro is, the more exaggerated the difference becomes. And if you support tempo decks in the cube, the uncounterability on Verdict is FAR from flavor text. It might be the single most important card that the guild has to offer. Every other card in the WU section is significantly more replaceable because of the competition in the respective slot available in the individual colors. But there's only 2 4cc Wrath effects available if you choose to exclude Verdict for some reason.
Just played a draft with Fractured Identity in a Bant ramp deck and went 2-0 (had to forfeit my round 1 due to an errand). Fractured Identity was cast 3 times, stole an Ugin once and a Woodfall Primus twice, won me the game each time. Card is super unfair in a lot of matchups, this feels like the second coming of Treachery. Half my games were just Mystical Tutor into Fractured Identity for the win.
It sounds like an exaggeration, but it's not. I came here to post on-topic again, and man this card is good. I've only seen it resolve a handful of times now, but it's a really powerful Magic card in 1v1 games. It's a great Control Magic-esque variant, and man has it been good in our games. Highly recommend testing it out over one of the more replaceable WU cards.
It sounds like an exaggeration, but it's not. I came here to post on-topic again, and man this card is good. I've only seen it resolve a handful of times now, but it's a really powerful Magic card in 1v1 games. It's a great Control Magic-esque variant, and man has it been good in our games. Highly recommend testing it out over one of the more replaceable WU cards.
How would you rank it in comparison to the other top cards in it's guild? For example, If you only had room for say 3, 4 or 5 cards for the guild (not lands), in which order would you include them?
I don't think Terminus (in singleton cubes) or any of the 5cc wraths can substitute for what the difference between 4 and 5 mana means in practical application. It really makes a huge difference. It's the reason why all the 4cc sweepers are universally playable and there aren't any 5cc sweepers in the cube. There are only 4 cards that kill every creature for 4 mana, and I can't see any of them being expendable in this format any time soon. And the more playable aggro is, the more exaggerated the difference becomes. And if you support tempo decks in the cube, the uncounterability on Verdict is FAR from flavor text. It might be the single most important card that the guild has to offer. Every other card in the WU section is significantly more replaceable because of the competition in the respective slot available in the individual colors. But there's only 2 4cc Wrath effects available if you choose to exclude Verdict for some reason.
I am biased by my experiences..
My cube fully supports agro in Mardu colors, however...
Against black agro, wrath of god is actively bad.
Against red agro, it's good, but not amazing.
It's at it's best against white/green, but I also run cards like whisperwood elemental, voice of resurgance, which offer great wrath insurance.
With even just a singleton brainstorm, I wouldn't be surprised if terminus is a better card than verdict for UW in my cube given all the wrath resiliency that exists. Pretty uncommon a UW control deck gets assembled that doesn't have a couple cantrips, and a way to put terminus on top (IE mystical tutor/Jace/Scroll rack/brainstorm). Turn 3 exile wrath better than a turn 4 destroy wrath
The other frequently played local cube doesn't support green or black agro at all, same with magic online cube.
Your cube and some others here support agro in 4 of 5 colors with deep saturation of 1 drops, meaning there are many all-in blitz style decks where a wrath is a critical card to stop the rush.
I fully believe you that in your cube 3 wrath's in white is needed.
First, I disagree with this. Second, even if you don't like Wrath there, it would certainly be better than Fumigate.
Quote from LucidVision »
I wouldn't be surprised if terminus is a better card than verdict for UW in my cube given all the wrath resiliency that exists.
Well, it wasn't. I ran it for quite a while, and a substitute for a 4cc wrath it was not.
Quote from LucidVision »
I fully believe you that in your cube 3 wrath's in white is needed.
I concur.
I meant in my cube for both of those statements.... Imagine you have wrath of god in your hand , and they have a board of goblin bombardment, gravecrawler and geralfs messenger
Terminus is great in the matchup, fumigate would be terrible.
My main point is that the critical density of wraths is related to the design of the cube and I've seen many cubes where wrath is less important.
Also, terminus is a better card at 450 than 540. Density of library manipulation is critical. Probably unplayable at 720.
The more I think about it, for larger cubes that heavily support agro, supreme verdict is probably very necessary.
Even if I decided there to be no multicolored cards in my cube I might make an exception for Verdict. It is just a needed effect. Terminus costs on average more than 5 in my experience. Also, it is not guaranteed you can set the miracle up in time. Consistency is pretty key for a card that you rely quite heavily on for survival.
Fractured Identity was great here, and I agree it is the second best card in the guild. Getting your stolen target untapped was surprisingly relevant.
Imagine you have wrath of god in your hand , and they have a board of goblin bombardment, gravecrawler and geralfs messenger [...] Terminus is great in the matchup, fumigate would be terrible.
If they have a Goblin Bombardment, Terminus and Wrath are equally ineffective. Except I'd at least be forcing them to sac their board with more consistent timing.
This is definitely the 5-mana Confiscate I always wanted, but much better. Being able to get ETB triggers + untap is HUGE compared to a normal Control Magic / Confiscate variant.
- It's a 2 for 1 right off the bat
- Any ETB kill effect makes it a 3 for 1 (assuming you have a target)
- Something like Mulldrifter / Primeval Titan makes it a 4 for 1
Also, Control Magic effects typically didn't play well with other blue themes like Spells Matters since they usually come in enchantment form. Fractured Identity can act as a strong top-end spell for a Spells Matters theme while just being good on its own.
Played two tournaments so far with Fractured Identity in heavy control shells and have been undefeated, with FI being the primary reason. It won me 1-2 games in 75% of my matches. Only matchup last night where it and all my control magic effects were mostly duds was a UW control deck that mainly used manlands and tokens. The only thing worth using Fractured Identity on was his Gideon, AoZ (which I never was able to do, always had Treachery instead : /). Another match I played was up against GW tokens and both games I won were using Fractured Identity to win the race. Game 1 I stole his Nissa, Voice of Zendikar to alpha strike with counters and game 3 I stole his problematic SoFI.
Every deck I've played Fractured Identity so far also featured Treachery. If Treachery shined in X matchup / scenario, odds are FI will be just as good. FI being able to steal other things than creatures makes it the stronger Control Magic effect, but chaining spells off Treachery is what puts it over the top.
TL;DR: Fractured Identity should perform similarly to Treachery when put in the same cubes. If Treachery is your jam, FI won't disappoint.
Yeah, Fractured Identity is crazy strong. It hit an Ugin that would've ultimated the next turn the other night, which was probably the biggest tempo swing I've seen with it. But it's always been at least something to keep the player in the game, which is an amazing floor.
This is basically a "good card is good" post. I had it last weekend in a RWu midrange deck. One game I had Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Monastery Mentor spewing tokens. I fractured my opponent's Goblin Bombardment with about 12 tokens in play.
Another game I fractured Pithing Needle which was naming my Ajani Vengeant. I named my opponent's Hazoret with my new copy. Speaks to how good this is compared to other "steal a permanent" variants that don't give you the etb ability.
I've had this card in my cube since its release and I haven't ever been disappointed, but how does it compare to Teferi? Supreme Verdict is our #1 Azorious card and this is our #2, but is this better or worse than Teferi in the 5cmc UW Control/3-5C Goodstuff Midrange Slot?
I think it's better than Teferi outside of specific reactive Teferi decks that are loaded with instant/flash-speed play. If I only had room for one of the two, I'd go with Identity. I also think it's the #1 card.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I used to be unsure if it was better or worse than reflector Mage, but after a ton more experience , I think reflector Mage is the clear winner.
I'm personally less high on supreme verdict/detention sphere than most , but I think it's a bit cube specific.
Terminus in a deck with a couple library manipulation effects (brainstorm , senseis top, Jace the mind sculptor) is by far the best wrath... so in my cube running double brainstorm, I have no "need" for verdict.
Though, I'd be surprised if anything but the most Agro oriented cube , couldn't substitute verdict with a slightly worse wrath and still be fine (terminus/fumigate)
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
That's my plan for now. UW control isn't a popular deck for us, but people seem to like playing UW tempo, so I feel fine keeping both Geist of Saint Traft and Reflector Mage, and moving the wrath effect into white. One more mana might make the difference, but guild slots are just so tight and this new card is sweet.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffMy High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
How would you rank it in comparison to the other top cards in it's guild? For example, If you only had room for say 3, 4 or 5 cards for the guild (not lands), in which order would you include them?
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
So
Supreme Verdict > Fractured Identity = 3cc tempo creature > Geist
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
My personal ranking now is:
Supreme Verdict > Geist of Saint Traft = Fractured Identity > Reflector Mage > Detention Sphere ≥ Spell Queller
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I am biased by my experiences..
My cube fully supports agro in Mardu colors, however...
Against black agro, wrath of god is actively bad.
Against red agro, it's good, but not amazing.
It's at it's best against white/green, but I also run cards like whisperwood elemental, voice of resurgance, which offer great wrath insurance.
With even just a singleton brainstorm, I wouldn't be surprised if terminus is a better card than verdict for UW in my cube given all the wrath resiliency that exists. Pretty uncommon a UW control deck gets assembled that doesn't have a couple cantrips, and a way to put terminus on top (IE mystical tutor/Jace/Scroll rack/brainstorm). Turn 3 exile wrath better than a turn 4 destroy wrath
The other frequently played local cube doesn't support green or black agro at all, same with magic online cube.
Your cube and some others here support agro in 4 of 5 colors with deep saturation of 1 drops, meaning there are many all-in blitz style decks where a wrath is a critical card to stop the rush.
I fully believe you that in your cube 3 wrath's in white is needed.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
First, I disagree with this. Second, even if you don't like Wrath there, it would certainly be better than Fumigate.
Well, it wasn't. I ran it for quite a while, and a substitute for a 4cc wrath it was not.
I concur.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I meant in my cube for both of those statements.... Imagine you have wrath of god in your hand , and they have a board of goblin bombardment, gravecrawler and geralfs messenger
Terminus is great in the matchup, fumigate would be terrible.
My main point is that the critical density of wraths is related to the design of the cube and I've seen many cubes where wrath is less important.
Also, terminus is a better card at 450 than 540. Density of library manipulation is critical. Probably unplayable at 720.
The more I think about it, for larger cubes that heavily support agro, supreme verdict is probably very necessary.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Fractured Identity was great here, and I agree it is the second best card in the guild. Getting your stolen target untapped was surprisingly relevant.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
If they have a Goblin Bombardment, Terminus and Wrath are equally ineffective.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Staff- It's a 2 for 1 right off the bat
- Any ETB kill effect makes it a 3 for 1 (assuming you have a target)
- Something like Mulldrifter / Primeval Titan makes it a 4 for 1
Also, Control Magic effects typically didn't play well with other blue themes like Spells Matters since they usually come in enchantment form. Fractured Identity can act as a strong top-end spell for a Spells Matters theme while just being good on its own.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
Also, flashing this back with a Snapcaster Mage or a Jace, Vryn's Prodigy sounds equally nice.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffEvery deck I've played Fractured Identity so far also featured Treachery. If Treachery shined in X matchup / scenario, odds are FI will be just as good. FI being able to steal other things than creatures makes it the stronger Control Magic effect, but chaining spells off Treachery is what puts it over the top.
TL;DR: Fractured Identity should perform similarly to Treachery when put in the same cubes. If Treachery is your jam, FI won't disappoint.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Another game I fractured Pithing Needle which was naming my Ajani Vengeant. I named my opponent's Hazoret with my new copy. Speaks to how good this is compared to other "steal a permanent" variants that don't give you the etb ability.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!