I did a brief search and couldn't find a thread on him, apologize if there is.
I've been testing leovold for about 6 months and he's outperformed my expectations.
I don't recommend him for the vast majority of cubes, exclusively because of the narrowness of his casting cost
And under most classification systems, he's competing directly with tasigur.
I would never include him OVER tasigur, simply due to the versatility , but make no mistake, leovold is considerably
More powerful in a deck that can properly support them both.
In "good stuff" sultai decks, leovold is 95% as good in cube as he is in legacy, and if you haven't played with him before, that's extremely powerful.
It's very rare he doesn't provide a minimum 2 for 1 , and there are a surprisingly high number of spots where his ability shuts down your opponents game plan entirely.
My cube has excellent fixing , and an extra attempt to support 3-4 colour low to the ground midrange black decks, similar to what you'd find in modern or legacy. If your cube fits that description, and you have a loose classification system, I recommend giving leovold a try.
In "good stuff" sultai decks, leovold is 95% as good in cube as he is in legacy...
This is polar opposite of what my experiences with him were.
For us, Leovold was completely matchup dependent. In matchups against blue decks that were removal-light and draw heavy, he was a complete beating. Shutting off draw is absurdly powerful and the targeting cantrip is fairly valuable. But against everything else, it was just a 3/3 that draws a card when it dies (sometimes), and has a bad/difficult mana cost.
Leovold is one of the best cards printed in the last 5 years when it comes to impact in eternal formats. He's a complete beast. But in cube, it just didn't shine outside of matchups where the draw-denial was relevant.
It's also important to note that because he needs to resolve early, it needs to be slotted into a Sultai shell that's solidly in all 3 colors. A UB deck splashing green, for example, will have a much harder time resolving it on curve.
It would be better in a league setting for cubes, where I could use him in the blue tempo/cantrip mirror. But when I'm the player drafting the Leovold deck at my table, his effectiveness goes way down. It would probably be a pretty good card in the MTGO cube for that reason.
I adore Leovold as a card; one of my favorite Magic cards in a long time. I was disappointed that it wasn't good in cube, and I really tried to make it work, and tried to remain as optimistic and patient as possible.
Interesting, surprising our experiences of power level have been so different. Sample of over-performing in my cube isn't small either, opinion is shared by all in my playgroup.
For what it's worth, I agree his power is highly matchup dependent, but blue decks compose 33-60% of every draft (and is by far the most played color), black has a few card draw effects (more in my cube than most), red has looting effects. Vast majority of decks have spells/permanents that target.
The "draw a card when target ANY permanent you control" is what has been more relevant than I thought. A fair number of planeswalker abilities become shut off. If the battlefield becomes bogged down with big monsters, despite leovold being outclassed, any removal or interaction starts your drawing cards... Big monster ETB abilities like Terastadon/Woodfall primus/Dragonlord atarka become nerfed, griselbrand gets shut off, kozilek doesn't draw cards.
Against agro , a 3/3 for 3 isn't that bad, considering the amount of 2 powered creatures in the format... and it drawing a card against red removal is non-negligible.
It's definitely tough to cast, which is why it's essential that it's in a cube with excellent fixing support. I'm only recommending it for cubes that semi-regularly assemble decks with enough fixing such that they could cast Leovold by turn 3 92%+ of the time. All my claims in power level were made, assuming he was in a deck where casting him is fairly trivial.
good discussion. i've been interested in him for a long time but wasn't interested enough to pay for one. Now that the talks about three colour cards came up in the random cube card thread I was thinking about him again.
He was a boss against some Jeskai, Grixis and other Sultai goodstuff decks. But there were too many matchups where his abilities never triggered, or if they did, they weren't all that relevant. Like, a 3/3 for UBG that draws a card when it gets Incinerated wasn't really blowing any skirts up. Not to mention the times where it got traded away in combat for no value. I'm not convinced that it's better than Rogue Refiner in this format. Which was a damn shame, because I love Leovold. Oh well.
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I'm only recommending it for cubes that semi-regularly assemble decks with enough fixing such that they could cast Leovold by turn 3 92%+ of the time.
I think you're overestimating the quality of your mana. You only have a 78% chance of having 3 total lands by turn 3 in a 17 land deck when one of your drawn cards is Leo. Better yet having the exact composition of lands within those 3 to cast him.
He's not hard to cast in a deck that's fully Sultai. But it's hard to cast on-curve off a splash. Especially a small splash.
He was *stellar* when he landed turns 3-4, but that's a hard thing to guarantee, even in cube. Still, I try to play him whenever I see him in other cubes.
Leovold is too situational / matchup dependent for a tri-color card, IMO. Would rather slot a random UB / UG / BG card that I'm currently not playing over Leovold.
Anyone revisiting Leovold with Narset being printed? I think I saw wtwlf mention a wheel combo deck. My issue is that I'm unpowered, so Timetwister is out. I run Jar and Wheel, though, and could be persuaded to run Time Spiral.
Leovold is a card I've always wanted to play, one I've loved in the MTGO cubes, but just didn't quite fit in my own list. Now I'm thinking about experimenting.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
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I am. Both Narset, Parter of Veils and Finale of Devastation has allowed his draw-disruption to be more reliable as a pseudo-combo support card. He still has his matchups where he's good anyways, but the build-around aspect just got a lot more reliable. Unsure if I would play either card without the other one.
Within the Black, Green, Blue Colors, there is enough support to give Leovold a chance to shine. I agree that splashing green is tough, but I think the mana fixing in most cubes allow this to be a non-issue.
Obviously he can hose draw and control decks.
Personally, I enjoy him in a Braids/Stax Shell, because hes an extra target to consider when the opponent is going for the Abyss or Braids. Is he win more in this scenario? I can definitely agree on that point
Personally, I don't think it's important to have a balanced three-color section. I play cards that make my environment the best it can be, and I'm not going to include cards that don't fulfill that just so the colors and color-combinations have equal representation. Balancing the size and representation of colors does not equate to a balanced Limited environment. The sets that WotC releases pretty much always have different numbers for the colors and color-combinations.
Personally, I don't think it's important to have a balanced three-color section. I play cards that make my environment the best it can be, and I'm not going to include cards that don't fulfill that just so the colors and color-combinations have equal representation. Balancing the size and representation of colors does not equate to a balanced Limited environment. The sets that WotC releases pretty much always have different numbers for the colors and color-combinations.
I feel the same way.
I like to structure my cube environment to mostly contain cards that work in as many archetypes and decks as possible, but I also want cards that are very powerful but only work in specific strategies.
3 color cards fall under the category of narrow but powerful, and would only want to include them if the power was there to justify the narrowness. There aren't that many cards on a leovold/bolas power level that's worth including, certainly not in every shard/wedge... And even if there were, including too many of them could be harmful to the environment.
As long as supported archetypes are consistently getting enough playables, it doesn't matter if everything is symmetrical.
Why do people have Leovold in their cube? It seems to run contrary to the gold card rule - way to difficult to cast, especially for tri color and its often a feast or famine.
What is your appeal for this card?
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Players build BUG often in my Cube (UGb or GBu), although I do run an above average density of fixing. Being a green creature helps with the splashability thanks to a variety of mana elves that help with the blue or black requirements, plus the green tutor cards like GSZ and Finale of Devastation.
Leovold is great for several reasons (1) general value (2) anti-blue / anti-monarch hate (3) Timetwister combo. No two Leovold decks look the same, and people are always creating cool shells for it.
How's Leo doing in 2023? His effect has started showing up alot more and people are running Wheel packages.
It huts him that the other 2 common (Narset & Hull Breacher) versions are mono colour as he feel alot chunkier.
I've decided to throw afew more 3 colour cards into my cube for variety and picked up a copy. Is he still seeing play for others?
Leovold is one of the few true 3+ color cards that I play that isn't a cheaty face target (the others being Omnath, Locus of Creation and Aragorn, King of Gondor). It's only gotten better over time as we've been getting more saboteurs / draw 7s / symmetrical draw effects / etc.
Leovold has been a nightmare to play against - It's pretty much a guaranteed 2-for-1 and blanks your opponent's draw spells/ wheels.
The most dangerous part about this card is in 2023 is that the wheel combo is much more consistent than before with all these new enablers, which makes it that you kinda have to assume they have wheel lined up for you on the following turn.
How's Leo doing in 2023? His effect has started showing up alot more and people are running Wheel packages.
It huts him that the other 2 common (Narset & Hull Breacher) versions are mono colour as he feel alot chunkier.
I've decided to throw afew more 3 colour cards into my cube for variety and picked up a copy. Is he still seeing play for others?
Leovold is one of the few true 3+ color cards that I play that isn't a cheaty face target (the others being Omnath, Locus of Creation and Aragorn, King of Gondor). It's only gotten better over time as we've been getting more saboteurs / draw 7s / symmetrical draw effects / etc.
I'm surprised you didn't mention it blanks monarch.
I been playing Arena Alchemy quite a bit recently and there's quite a bit of showing of The One Ring. The card hasn't really broken the format in half as Sheoldred, the Apocalypse, and to a lesser extent Orcish Bowmaster has been a VERY good foil to the card.
My recommendation is Leovold may seem underwhelming and narrow as a tri-color card, but my experience is draw-denial is very important right now, especially in a vintage format. I would argue its just as critical to a control deck these days as sweepers, countermagic etc.
I will be actively looking forward to more draw denial to counter balance these incredible broken draw engines.
My recommendation is Leovold may seem underwhelming and narrow as a tri-color card
Leovold has probably been the most long running played 3-color card that isn't a super fattie target in a lot of Vintage Cubes. It wasn't uncommon to see cubes only 3-colored cards be like Leovold and Sphinx of the Steel Wind or something. It's always had a very well defined role with draw 7 combo and a problematic hate bear to deal with.
My recommendation is Leovold may seem underwhelming and narrow as a tri-color card
Leovold has probably been the most long running played 3-color card that isn't a super fattie target in a lot of Vintage Cubes. It wasn't uncommon to see cubes only 3-colored cards be like Leovold and Sphinx of the Steel Wind or something. It's always had a very well defined role with draw 7 combo and a problematic hate bear to deal with.
Yah. I really like Leovold right now. I've been kinda eh on Sphinx as of late, I've had WAY too many games where its just been bounced or removed.
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I did a brief search and couldn't find a thread on him, apologize if there is.
I've been testing leovold for about 6 months and he's outperformed my expectations.
I don't recommend him for the vast majority of cubes, exclusively because of the narrowness of his casting cost
And under most classification systems, he's competing directly with tasigur.
I would never include him OVER tasigur, simply due to the versatility , but make no mistake, leovold is considerably
More powerful in a deck that can properly support them both.
In "good stuff" sultai decks, leovold is 95% as good in cube as he is in legacy, and if you haven't played with him before, that's extremely powerful.
It's very rare he doesn't provide a minimum 2 for 1 , and there are a surprisingly high number of spots where his ability shuts down your opponents game plan entirely.
My cube has excellent fixing , and an extra attempt to support 3-4 colour low to the ground midrange black decks, similar to what you'd find in modern or legacy. If your cube fits that description, and you have a loose classification system, I recommend giving leovold a try.
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This is polar opposite of what my experiences with him were.
For us, Leovold was completely matchup dependent. In matchups against blue decks that were removal-light and draw heavy, he was a complete beating. Shutting off draw is absurdly powerful and the targeting cantrip is fairly valuable. But against everything else, it was just a 3/3 that draws a card when it dies (sometimes), and has a bad/difficult mana cost.
Leovold is one of the best cards printed in the last 5 years when it comes to impact in eternal formats. He's a complete beast. But in cube, it just didn't shine outside of matchups where the draw-denial was relevant.
It's also important to note that because he needs to resolve early, it needs to be slotted into a Sultai shell that's solidly in all 3 colors. A UB deck splashing green, for example, will have a much harder time resolving it on curve.
It would be better in a league setting for cubes, where I could use him in the blue tempo/cantrip mirror. But when I'm the player drafting the Leovold deck at my table, his effectiveness goes way down. It would probably be a pretty good card in the MTGO cube for that reason.
I adore Leovold as a card; one of my favorite Magic cards in a long time. I was disappointed that it wasn't good in cube, and I really tried to make it work, and tried to remain as optimistic and patient as possible.
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For what it's worth, I agree his power is highly matchup dependent, but blue decks compose 33-60% of every draft (and is by far the most played color), black has a few card draw effects (more in my cube than most), red has looting effects. Vast majority of decks have spells/permanents that target.
The "draw a card when target ANY permanent you control" is what has been more relevant than I thought. A fair number of planeswalker abilities become shut off. If the battlefield becomes bogged down with big monsters, despite leovold being outclassed, any removal or interaction starts your drawing cards... Big monster ETB abilities like Terastadon/Woodfall primus/Dragonlord atarka become nerfed, griselbrand gets shut off, kozilek doesn't draw cards.
Against agro , a 3/3 for 3 isn't that bad, considering the amount of 2 powered creatures in the format... and it drawing a card against red removal is non-negligible.
It's definitely tough to cast, which is why it's essential that it's in a cube with excellent fixing support. I'm only recommending it for cubes that semi-regularly assemble decks with enough fixing such that they could cast Leovold by turn 3 92%+ of the time. All my claims in power level were made, assuming he was in a deck where casting him is fairly trivial.
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I think you're overestimating the quality of your mana. You only have a 78% chance of having 3 total lands by turn 3 in a 17 land deck when one of your drawn cards is Leo. Better yet having the exact composition of lands within those 3 to cast him.
He's not hard to cast in a deck that's fully Sultai. But it's hard to cast on-curve off a splash. Especially a small splash.
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Leovold is a card I've always wanted to play, one I've loved in the MTGO cubes, but just didn't quite fit in my own list. Now I'm thinking about experimenting.
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Leovold is a favorite of well known MTGO cubers such as LSV and NumotTheNummy.
It's really a great value card that does serious work in cubes that support combo with lots of draw 7s, like the MTGO Legacy and Vintage cubes.
If you don't support combo, it loses a bit of luster, but it's still a great card.
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Obviously he can hose draw and control decks.
Personally, I enjoy him in a Braids/Stax Shell, because hes an extra target to consider when the opponent is going for the Abyss or Braids. Is he win more in this scenario? I can definitely agree on that point
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Personally, I don't think it's important to have a balanced three-color section. I play cards that make my environment the best it can be, and I'm not going to include cards that don't fulfill that just so the colors and color-combinations have equal representation. Balancing the size and representation of colors does not equate to a balanced Limited environment. The sets that WotC releases pretty much always have different numbers for the colors and color-combinations.
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I feel the same way.
I like to structure my cube environment to mostly contain cards that work in as many archetypes and decks as possible, but I also want cards that are very powerful but only work in specific strategies.
3 color cards fall under the category of narrow but powerful, and would only want to include them if the power was there to justify the narrowness. There aren't that many cards on a leovold/bolas power level that's worth including, certainly not in every shard/wedge... And even if there were, including too many of them could be harmful to the environment.
As long as supported archetypes are consistently getting enough playables, it doesn't matter if everything is symmetrical.
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Why do people have Leovold in their cube? It seems to run contrary to the gold card rule - way to difficult to cast, especially for tri color and its often a feast or famine.
What is your appeal for this card?
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Leovold is great for several reasons (1) general value (2) anti-blue / anti-monarch hate (3) Timetwister combo. No two Leovold decks look the same, and people are always creating cool shells for it.
It huts him that the other 2 common (Narset & Hull Breacher) versions are mono colour as he feel alot chunkier.
I've decided to throw afew more 3 colour cards into my cube for variety and picked up a copy. Is he still seeing play for others?
Leovold is one of the few true 3+ color cards that I play that isn't a cheaty face target (the others being Omnath, Locus of Creation and Aragorn, King of Gondor). It's only gotten better over time as we've been getting more saboteurs / draw 7s / symmetrical draw effects / etc.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
The most dangerous part about this card is in 2023 is that the wheel combo is much more consistent than before with all these new enablers, which makes it that you kinda have to assume they have wheel lined up for you on the following turn.
I'm surprised you didn't mention it blanks monarch.
My recommendation is Leovold may seem underwhelming and narrow as a tri-color card, but my experience is draw-denial is very important right now, especially in a vintage format. I would argue its just as critical to a control deck these days as sweepers, countermagic etc.
I will be actively looking forward to more draw denial to counter balance these incredible broken draw engines.
Leovold has probably been the most long running played 3-color card that isn't a super fattie target in a lot of Vintage Cubes. It wasn't uncommon to see cubes only 3-colored cards be like Leovold and Sphinx of the Steel Wind or something. It's always had a very well defined role with draw 7 combo and a problematic hate bear to deal with.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Yah. I really like Leovold right now. I've been kinda eh on Sphinx as of late, I've had WAY too many games where its just been bounced or removed.