I have a (fairly janky) cube that runs some unconventional archetypes, and am looking for a mid to lategame R/x archetype to replace Wildfire, which just doesn't fit.
I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on "CMC matters" in red, specifically the stuff that results in direct damage.
Recent cards like Sin Prodder, Combustible Gearhulk and Vial Smasher the Fierce are a lot better than older cards with this sort of effect, and are frankly good enough to make it into my (again, janky) cube on their own merits.
I can see the archetype breaking down into three sets of cards:
Set-Up - Stuff that lets you sculpt your hand and deck to ease your early game and ensure that when you go off, you don't whiff. Brainstorm, Scry effects, slow tutors.
Ammunition - Spells with a high CMC that are independently playable and serve a role in your deck. Things that can reduce their cost, or are playable for an alternative cost. Delve is good for this (Dead Drop/Murderous Cut, Will of the Naga, Dig and Cruise), but maybe even something like Flame Javelin could work?
CMC Matters - Stuff with the text "deals damage equal to...converted mana cost", the cards that throw remaining "ammo" in your deck or hand at your opponent to close out a game.
1: Does this archetype sound fun? - Playing a Big Red style list that sculpts its deck, then goes big with titan-sized creatures and massive spells, or throws them at your face without even bothering to play/draw them first.
2: How much support would an archetype like this require? I run the enemy scrylands and scry and cycling cards in every colour, a few Delve cards, and my cube is slow, so I'm not too worried about set up, but how many "CMC Burn" effects would be needed as payoff in a cube of 360? (When I say slow, I mean "Long Term Plans is considered reliable without card draw" levels of slow. "Astral Slide on turn three is oppressive" levels of slow. Slow. Not Heretic's Punishment slow though.)
3: Can I avoid this archetype becoming too parasitic? I like my players fighting over cards, and they'll fight over Sin Prodder and friends, but stuff like Erratic Explosion/Explosive Revelation and Blast of Genius are really only going to go in this deck specifically, and lets not even think about Heretic's Punishment.
Sin Prodder and Vial Smasher don’t need to go out of their way to be good (Fiery Confluence / Fireblast, hello!) I think adding in a bunch of high-cmc effects would dilute burn more than it would help.
Adding more Delve cards is a decent option though since those tend to be inherently good / decent on their own.
I was thinking more about a control style archetype that closes out with a massive Erratic Explosion/Explosive Revelation/Kaboom!, or a proc from Wolf of Devil's Breach, rather than a aggro or tempo thing, but I suppose that keeping it as a curve-out aggro deck that has incremental damage from stuff like Sin Prodder and Vial Smasher would be a lot easier to squeeze in as an archetype without jamming bad cards into the cube.
Still going to consider the "Go big" variant, but will test the small incremental version first.
Thanks for the input, hopefully changing tack will give me a few new ideas
Edit: Thanks for reminding me that Fiery Confluence exists. I have a copy, how have I missed including it?
Are there enough cards that care about high-CMC effects to make it a workable archetype?
Other sub-archetypes like the spells matters deck only require you to cast spells in order to make them good. So the opportunity cost to attempt to break Monastery Mentor is really low. Cards that work on the high-CMC angle require that you saturate your deck with lots of expensive cards, which really changes the way the deck plays, and can be particularly punishing when the enablers are dealt with. I can imagine this archetype suffering a bit because of that dynamic.
So, just looking at direct damage spells and abilities that hit opponents and care about the mana cost of cards or permanents you own/control, there are quite a few. Admittedly, not all of them care about the same zones. Some care about your library, some your hand, some your battlefield and one (?) cares about the 'yard. There are even a few that trigger on casting the spell, but I think I might skip those.
Most care about what's on top of your deck, so that seemed like a good place to start messing about (Plus, I already have a "top of deck matters" thing going on in UG). Some of them are even playable on their own, like Sin Prodder and... Okay, just Sin Prodder.
I was kinda hoping that there would be ways to lower that opportunity cost while still keeping the deck 'playable'. Split cards, Delve cards, stuff with alternate costs or cost reduction effects, all of them being independently playable while also being decent ammo for throwing at faces.
I'm not thinking about running a Draco just for that sweet 16 damage Kaboom!, but a Blasphemous Act or a Turn // Burn can be a roleplayer in the deck while also doing respectable damage off a Gearhulk (It is in fact, Blast of Genius pitching Blasphemous Acts, Temporal Masteries and Turn // Burns back in Inn/RTR standard that first got me thinking about this in other formats.)
I think there are few ways to 'cheat' high CMC cards into a cube without ruining it, and I have plenty of topdeck manipulation already available, but I don't know if there's a way to have the proportions be right without the deck turning into a clunky mess (Just wait 'til I have my Scroll Rack and my Brainstorm on a stick and my Heretic's Punishment and a Blasphemous Act and Dead Drop!)
Now you mention it, you're entirely right about the archetype really suffering if it's enablers are blanked and the more I think about that the more I realize how difficult that is to overcome. Sin Prodder and Gearhulk, the most playable of the bunch, are a: vulnerable creatures and b: give the choice to your opponent, so they're very unlikely to get the win on their own, and the rest are parasitic and/or bad even in a deck built to use them.
It's difficult to fit redundancy in while keeping the parasitic payoff cards out, and I don't want to warp my red section too much - One 'Build Around' Erratic Explosion is fine, but I don't want to run alltheexplosions -and- Riddle of Lightning in 360. The archetype might need access to repeatable cards like Heretic's Punishment to have any shot at working, and that means drafting and drawing a specific card - I don't mind running Astral Slide, because I also have Drake Haven, Archfiend of Ifnir and Spirit Cairn as 'backup' payoff cards, all of which also go well with the madness/discard stuff I've got in the cube as well as the cycling, but all the decent payoff effects for this are in Red and only work for this deck. Shame theseguys can't go face.
I've found room in the cube for the more aggressive cards in this vein, and am just waiting for a shot to test it out. There are nowhere near as many of them, but at least they all naturally slide into aggro decks so some will probably see play.
Oh wow, that's a great idea. I really like having support in multiple colours, and Manaplasm with Become Immense seems pretty fun, as well as going with stuff like Flashback'd Roar so it doesn't feel like it's just in there for one job (With thewurms and such, it might be okay in the RG Madness deck in general, who knows).
Thanks
Edit: Just remembered Blazing Shoal was a card too, am considering it.
So this was drafted tonight in a multiplayer Conspiracy night, and did really solidly, keeping two aggressive decks in check while still advancing it's own gameplan.
The cheaper cards like Vial Smasher and Sin Prodder were snapped up by a RG deck which did in fact use them with theWurms to great effect, but the Gearhulk and Undying Flames did a lot of work in a RUG combo deck built with them in mind. Scroll Rack set up Undying Flames off the top with a Melek in play, a Double Stroke naming the Flames was revealed and the RUG player sat back to watch the rest of the game as he cast three Undying Flames a turn. Sadly, they died shortly after to the aforementioned aggro deck, and the game was won a turn later by a UB control deck dropping and repeatedly activating Demon of Dark Schemes, the resulting triggers and responses taking out two players and the combat step removing the third. Meanwhile, a Resto-Kiki combo deck sat and durdled, getting nowhere all game, and the GW token/enchantress deck had only just gotten back into a decent position before the Demon dropped and wiped their (and the Resto-Kiki players) board.
All in all, the RUG deck did a solid job and came together like a smooth engine, with cards like Sage of Epityr, Courser of Kruphix and Vizier of the Menagerie clearing the way for Melek, Rashmi and the CMC matters stuff to have their maximum impact. Roar of the Wurm flashback'd on turn 4 with a Rashmi and Scroll Rack in play was dirty.
Still, not sure how much I can recommend it. It required a lot of incidental support in multiple colours, and I don't run a powered cube so there's obviously a very real power level concern. Personally I think the effort was worth it as it felt fresh and caused a far few cool moments, and RG and UG decks don't seem to have suffered from the addition.
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I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on "CMC matters" in red, specifically the stuff that results in direct damage.
Recent cards like Sin Prodder, Combustible Gearhulk and Vial Smasher the Fierce are a lot better than older cards with this sort of effect, and are frankly good enough to make it into my (again, janky) cube on their own merits.
I can see the archetype breaking down into three sets of cards:
Set-Up - Stuff that lets you sculpt your hand and deck to ease your early game and ensure that when you go off, you don't whiff. Brainstorm, Scry effects, slow tutors.
Ammunition - Spells with a high CMC that are independently playable and serve a role in your deck. Things that can reduce their cost, or are playable for an alternative cost. Delve is good for this (Dead Drop/Murderous Cut, Will of the Naga, Dig and Cruise), but maybe even something like Flame Javelin could work?
CMC Matters - Stuff with the text "deals damage equal to...converted mana cost", the cards that throw remaining "ammo" in your deck or hand at your opponent to close out a game.
Red has access to most of this stuff. Its got ammunition like Blasphemous Act and Bedlam Reveler. Go deep enough and and there's even stuff that avoids its actual CMC entirely, like Bringer of the Red Dawn or Fury of the Horde, and of course the trusty Fireblast. It has -all- the CMC matters burn, though a few cards do splash other colours to do it (Blast of Genius, Vengeful Rebirth, Vial Smasher the Fierce, Mercurial Chemister and Sarkhan the Mad). The only thing is -has- to splash for is anything to set up its draws.
So, my questions are:
1: Does this archetype sound fun? - Playing a Big Red style list that sculpts its deck, then goes big with titan-sized creatures and massive spells, or throws them at your face without even bothering to play/draw them first.
2: How much support would an archetype like this require? I run the enemy scrylands and scry and cycling cards in every colour, a few Delve cards, and my cube is slow, so I'm not too worried about set up, but how many "CMC Burn" effects would be needed as payoff in a cube of 360? (When I say slow, I mean "Long Term Plans is considered reliable without card draw" levels of slow. "Astral Slide on turn three is oppressive" levels of slow. Slow. Not Heretic's Punishment slow though.)
3: Can I avoid this archetype becoming too parasitic? I like my players fighting over cards, and they'll fight over Sin Prodder and friends, but stuff like Erratic Explosion/Explosive Revelation and Blast of Genius are really only going to go in this deck specifically, and lets not even think about Heretic's Punishment.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts
Adding more Delve cards is a decent option though since those tend to be inherently good / decent on their own.
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Still going to consider the "Go big" variant, but will test the small incremental version first.
Thanks for the input, hopefully changing tack will give me a few new ideas
Edit: Thanks for reminding me that Fiery Confluence exists. I have a copy, how have I missed including it?
Other sub-archetypes like the spells matters deck only require you to cast spells in order to make them good. So the opportunity cost to attempt to break Monastery Mentor is really low. Cards that work on the high-CMC angle require that you saturate your deck with lots of expensive cards, which really changes the way the deck plays, and can be particularly punishing when the enablers are dealt with. I can imagine this archetype suffering a bit because of that dynamic.
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Sin Prodder
Explosive Revelation
Heretic's Punishment
Kaboom!
Riddle of Lightning
Combustible Gearhulk
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Undying Flames
Pyromancy
Blast of Genius
Bosh, Iron Golem (More like a Fling for Artifacts)
Most care about what's on top of your deck, so that seemed like a good place to start messing about (Plus, I already have a "top of deck matters" thing going on in UG). Some of them are even playable on their own, like Sin Prodder and... Okay, just Sin Prodder.
I was kinda hoping that there would be ways to lower that opportunity cost while still keeping the deck 'playable'. Split cards, Delve cards, stuff with alternate costs or cost reduction effects, all of them being independently playable while also being decent ammo for throwing at faces.
I'm not thinking about running a Draco just for that sweet 16 damage Kaboom!, but a Blasphemous Act or a Turn // Burn can be a roleplayer in the deck while also doing respectable damage off a Gearhulk (It is in fact, Blast of Genius pitching Blasphemous Acts, Temporal Masteries and Turn // Burns back in Inn/RTR standard that first got me thinking about this in other formats.)
I think there are few ways to 'cheat' high CMC cards into a cube without ruining it, and I have plenty of topdeck manipulation already available, but I don't know if there's a way to have the proportions be right without the deck turning into a clunky mess (Just wait 'til I have my Scroll Rack and my Brainstorm on a stick and my Heretic's Punishment and a Blasphemous Act and Dead Drop!)
Now you mention it, you're entirely right about the archetype really suffering if it's enablers are blanked and the more I think about that the more I realize how difficult that is to overcome. Sin Prodder and Gearhulk, the most playable of the bunch, are a: vulnerable creatures and b: give the choice to your opponent, so they're very unlikely to get the win on their own, and the rest are parasitic and/or bad even in a deck built to use them.
It's difficult to fit redundancy in while keeping the parasitic payoff cards out, and I don't want to warp my red section too much - One 'Build Around' Erratic Explosion is fine, but I don't want to run all the explosions -and- Riddle of Lightning in 360. The archetype might need access to repeatable cards like Heretic's Punishment to have any shot at working, and that means drafting and drawing a specific card - I don't mind running Astral Slide, because I also have Drake Haven, Archfiend of Ifnir and Spirit Cairn as 'backup' payoff cards, all of which also go well with the madness/discard stuff I've got in the cube as well as the cycling, but all the decent payoff effects for this are in Red and only work for this deck. Shame these guys can't go face.
I've found room in the cube for the more aggressive cards in this vein, and am just waiting for a shot to test it out. There are nowhere near as many of them, but at least they all naturally slide into aggro decks so some will probably see play.
Thanks
Edit: Just remembered Blazing Shoal was a card too, am considering it.
The cheaper cards like Vial Smasher and Sin Prodder were snapped up by a RG deck which did in fact use them with the Wurms to great effect, but the Gearhulk and Undying Flames did a lot of work in a RUG combo deck built with them in mind.
Scroll Rack set up Undying Flames off the top with a Melek in play, a Double Stroke naming the Flames was revealed and the RUG player sat back to watch the rest of the game as he cast three Undying Flames a turn. Sadly, they died shortly after to the aforementioned aggro deck, and the game was won a turn later by a UB control deck dropping and repeatedly activating Demon of Dark Schemes, the resulting triggers and responses taking out two players and the combat step removing the third. Meanwhile, a Resto-Kiki combo deck sat and durdled, getting nowhere all game, and the GW token/enchantress deck had only just gotten back into a decent position before the Demon dropped and wiped their (and the Resto-Kiki players) board.
All in all, the RUG deck did a solid job and came together like a smooth engine, with cards like Sage of Epityr, Courser of Kruphix and Vizier of the Menagerie clearing the way for Melek, Rashmi and the CMC matters stuff to have their maximum impact. Roar of the Wurm flashback'd on turn 4 with a Rashmi and Scroll Rack in play was dirty.
Still, not sure how much I can recommend it. It required a lot of incidental support in multiple colours, and I don't run a powered cube so there's obviously a very real power level concern. Personally I think the effort was worth it as it felt fresh and caused a far few cool moments, and RG and UG decks don't seem to have suffered from the addition.