I guess the main thing I want to hear from DoTA is this:
This is his entire progression on Killjoy.
Quote from DoTArchon »
Shows how rusty I am, I hadn't even considered that it could be distancing. I don't think scumKJ brings this up so early in the game when it could have been used later on if I was facing being defenestrated.
Quote from DoTArchon »
It was a viewpoint I hadn't considered, and one that didn't make sense to bring up as scum. I played MTG for a number of years and I agree, it is possible he just overlooked Timetwister. I just see a town mindset from KJ in considering all the possibilities.
Quote from DoTArchon »
I'm beginning to have doubts about my townread of KJ, I liked the early question he asked and the follow up on that, but he has more posts than I do and only 2 or 3 of those are content posts. The rest are just short answers to questions about old games or complaints about Curse (which we can all understand)
Quote from DoTArchon »
The TLDR is: Last and Cantrip are at the bottom of my T/S list by the end of page 5, KJ looking better in retrospect of this.
Quote from DoTArchon »
Right now, Killjoy and Cantrip/Eco, but I'm still busy with the read through. Should have time tonight (few hours from now).
How the heck did he shift from his PoE going from "Last/Cantrip, KJ looking better" to "Killjoy and Cantrip/Eco"?
The "KJ looking better" note was based on the first few pages of the game, but as I read further (specifically the interactions with Wisp and D_V) that read drops off.
Sorry I haven't been as present a lot. Work has been stressful.
Anyway, I think Axel might be town. Early game he got a fair amount of hate for his typical playstyle (in which he doesn't usually start Doing Things until not early game) and that makes me feel like he was a target for scum. I'm confident enough in this at least to put him in the Not Yeeting Today pile.
Proph as I said earlier reminds me of me when I'm trying to get info, and a rusty Proph who isn't used to needing to solve as town probably fits that criteria.
I don't really have a specific opinion on Cantrip as of now. He's one of the Tricksy Hobbits and uses a lot of words. I think I'd prefer overNight to try to figure him out.
I had no good opinion on Osiebell. Osie being Proph is not Osie enough for me to judge him outright. His posts were... fine I guess?
DotA had some decent posts but has not a lot of content, so he's not out of the PoE I suppose but he's not on my chopping block right now.
I need to reread Grape honestly because I just straight up don't remember things from him.
The two people I think currently are scum are DV and Wisp. DV has aggressively jumped on at least Proph for minutia and has also been hedgy in a bad way. Wisp I specifically think is scum for his progression on me. He keeps maintaining (353, 417, 432) that I've been really null. I feel like it's not just an opinion of his, he's trying to convince others of it, possibly to counteract the townleans people seem to have developed on me. He's not scumreading me as of now, so why is he pushing so hard that other's should not be townreading me? I think he knows I'm town and misyeetable so he's trying to preserve that.
Vote Wisp
I'm also fine with an extesion, espceially so GJ can catch up fully etc.
There's a few things in this post that I think sound fabricated.
His first point regarding Axel, it was Osie who had a scumread of him and a few people pointing out to Osie that his opening to the game was well within his meta. D_V, Proph, Wisp and Cantrip all disagreed with Osie about Axel to some degree, so I don't get where KJ comes up with the idea that Axel got a lot of heat.
Eleven of Cantrip's twelve posts were made before this one, and most people had formulated at least some opinion of him by this point. Accusing Cantrip of using a lot of words sounds like an excuse to skip giving a read on him. For posterity, this is all of Cantrip's posts up to this point:
I tried to play the game last night, but MTGS kept throwing error messages, so I gave up and went to bed.
Caught up, ready to rock, let's get this bread.
Crossbell: I know high interaction doesn't automatically equate to town, but I always lean that way. Some general game solving vibes, too. I don't really get the suspicion on Axel. 98 might be a little try-hard, but, as has been noted, the Proph roleplay may be a factor there. Maybe I've got them higher than I ought just because they correctly noted that my absence was because of the weekend. If I'm right in my suspicions of who they are, though, they're solidly in their town meta. Certainly don't see why they're L-2. Town.
@Cross: Can you point to differences in other games from Axel? I'm just getting standard Axel vibes so far.
Killjoy: Pretty light in content, but that last post (150) is pretty solidly town paranoid KJ. Townlean.
DoTArchon: Feels like he wants to solve, especially with his insight into KJ's mindset. Townlean.
Wisp: I think a telling point here is the carelessness. Scum Wisp likes to pretend that they're careless, but they rarely actually post things that garner serious attention beyond "Why is Wisp the way Wisp be?" I'm not getting faked carelessness here (other than the drunkposting, but drunkposting always feels fake to me.) Mild townlean.
Axel: Not much here, but certainly not getting the "awkward" vibes that Cross is concerned about. Still null.
Grape: Some mindmeld on the Easy Breezy Beautiful Whisper read, and I like the long version of 73, but the TLDR feels waffly. Of course, it's coming from the Hedgelord, so I'll take it with a grain of salt and wait and see. Null.
DV: I hate reading DV. Scumlean.
Proph: The energy and engagement give me generally good vibes, but the progression from 22, where he says he will easily be able to read Wisp, to 30, where he votes Wisp for "clumsy" posts feels weird, especially with Proph saying it's for Wisp's "early" posts.
@Proph: Can you show me Wisp being "clumsy", as you note in 30? In their "early" posts only, please.
Do you think Wisp right now is engaged and relaxed? I think his posting has been quite clumsy and.. unconfident, for lack of a better term. He seems to be annoyed with both how I and Crossbell are treating him, which is understandable.
You seem to be listing Wisp's annoyance with you and Cross as a point against them, but then you say it's understandable?
WTH. I had eight posts quoted via multiquote, clicked Reply, nothing. Went to another page and they're gone. So I'm just going to reply as I REREAD things and y'all can suffer my multiposting.
@Cantrip I don't get your town read on crossbell at all. You only added two details beyond engaged and solvey=town. The first was the Proph roleplay was a factor in other people (DV and myself notably) scum reading the wall post and you having a guess to the identity and projecting that to the town meta. I have a hard time seeing how that equals a top town read.
The meta read is actually playing a lot stronger here than I think I realized. Each subsequent post makes me feel like it's more likely who I think it is, and I'm freaking loving it. (Spoiler: I'm probably completely wrong, because I'm almost always wrong on these things, but something something blind squirrel...) I'm also happy with the volume of output. Again, not necessarily town on its own, but in combination with everything, feels indicative to me. The Axel read still doesn't meld with me (nor the DoTa one, tbf), but the meta dive at least lets me see where Cross is coming from.
I don't like DoTA's vote on Crossbell; it feels opportunistic to me. I am fine with his questioning on Crossbell, but the vote feels.. premature? Like he's looking for someone to incriminate. Would still like to see him zoom out/focus on the game at large.
Disagree. That quoted post with bolded emphasis feels like an aha moment, which is harder for scum to fake than town. Not impossible, but the conviction feels more likely town, too.
Killjoy: Pretty light in content, but that last post (150) is pretty solidly town paranoid KJ. Townlean.
Talk to me about why you think 150 is more likely to come from town paranoid killjoy? I'm looking at post 150 and while I do think it's a good callout (because DV jumping straight into assuming inside info on Crossbell's declaration of town on me is a weird assumption given the open setup) I don't see how it sharply indicates town killjoy.
It's not the content, it's the sharpness of the insight. Iirc, the feeling I often get from scum!KJ is sort of a meandering lost. He can't have sharp insights because he feels there's nothing to solve. He's honing in on something that he doesn't understand and applying focused scrutiny. I think that comes from town!KJ.
Quote from Proph »
Quote from Cantripmaner »
DV: I hate reading DV. Scumlean.
Why does you hating reading DV automatically equivocate to a scumlean? Is it because he's been so vocal in pushing for Crossbell, one of your ostensibly stronger townreads?
Nah, it was simply for the reaction. (I know he reacted in a later post; more when I get there.)
Quote from Proph »
Quote from Cantripmancer »
Proph: The energy and engagement give me generally good vibes, but the progression from 22, where he says he will easily be able to read Wisp, to 30, where he votes Wisp for "clumsy" posts feels weird, especially with Proph saying it's for Wisp's "early" posts.
@Proph: Can you show me Wisp being "clumsy", as you note in 30? In their "early" posts only, please.
I think post 8, post 19, post 25, and some extent post 29 are indicative of him being reactive/clumsy. I'm used to town Wisp being more proactive and not being afraid to voice out his opinions or to vote early. I would also feel like he would be more critical or dogged in his pursuit of me if he was town. Right now, it feels like he's treating me with kid gloves.
I can see what you're saying a bit with 19 and 25, but I'm really not seeing the reactiveness of 8 or 29. I know you've recently re-evaluated Wisp townward, but given the conviction you were showing based on early game meta comparison, right now it just looks like you've decided that trying to get Wisp mis-eliminated isn't worth the effort and you're going to push elsewhere. (I saw your explanation, and I don't want to ask you to provide more detail because I generally agree with what you "found", but your change in position is a bit, as you say, jarring.)
Quote from Cantripmancer »
You seem to be listing Wisp's annoyance with you and Cross as a point against them, but then you say it's understandable?
At the time I made that post, I thought it was understandable for him to be annoyed at being pressured by Crossbell and I as either alignment. I'd be annoyed if I was being hounded by two clones of mine, for example.
Why does you hating reading DV automatically equivocate to a scumlean? Is it because he's been so vocal in pushing for Crossbell, one of your ostensibly stronger townreads?
Hey man when you gotta look for an excuse to scum read me this is how you do it.
Conclusion Dota, KJ, Grape and Cantrip are a better place to vote out right now. Not sure where to point though.
If you vote DoTA, I'll stop poking the monkey bear that is Axelrod and I'll vote DoTA with you.
Vote Axelrod
I want to +town DV for this. If this is scum!DV being offered a DoTa wagon and then joining Cross on Axel instead, that's some deep pocketing. Maybe less so if both Axel and DoTa flip town, but generally...yeah, I think this is more likely to come from town.
I've read past 200, but I'm falling asleep, so more posts in the morning. Good night.
Idk if I want to sheep this or if I stick with trying to get Axelrod to impress me... I think I just sheep this though since DoTA hasn't gotten better.
How could DoTA have gotten better when he hadn't posted?
I don't like DoTA's vote on Crossbell; it feels opportunistic to me. I am fine with his questioning on Crossbell, but the vote feels.. premature? Like he's looking for someone to incriminate. Would still like to see him zoom out/focus on the game at large.
Disagree. That quoted post with bolded emphasis feels like an aha moment, which is harder for scum to fake than town. Not impossible, but the conviction feels more likely town, too.
Ehh, it's pretty fragile though.
I don't know that it is, though. Feels very much like town pulling a thread (from his 137) and then seeing something significant in the details of your response and jumping on it. Although...he was putting you to L-2 and then peaced out for 24 hours, so I guess it could have been an attempt to start an elimination movement without looking like he was involved. Eh...I just feel like I want more from DoTA for now.
@Cantripmancer Can you, me, and Prophylaxis just all jump into each others' living rooms towncore and stay there? It would make solving this game a hell of a lot easier. Wisp may be able to come too if he is willing to leave the emotional baggage at the door lmao.
Man, that sounds cozy. But I'm far from satisfied with Proph's responses, so...my magic 8-ball says "prognosis is grim". I'm down with Wisp, though.
There is some engagement around page 4/5 between Axel and Crossbell but are they trying to figure each other out or just posting for the sake of having spoken to one another. I don't know if this makes them W/W or T/W but I have a gut feeling that it's not T/T.
That is...a weird way to conclude your statement. Your suspicion of Cross is apparent, so I get that you think they're either W/W or T/W, but why say it this way instead of just pondering whether Axel is a buddy or not? That doesn't seem to jive with your "are they trying to figure each other out" possibility, either, as that would only happen with T/T.
Pretty interested as to how Cantrip and I have.. bifurcating reads outside of the ones on Wisp/Crossbell, but I'll sort that out in X hours or so.
Up until less than 12 hours ago, we were bifurcated on Wisp as well, and I think there's a good chance you're mafia, so are you really that surprised that our reads don't align? Looking forward to you sorting and responding to my questions.
That is...a weird way to conclude your statement. Your suspicion of Cross is apparent, so I get that you think they're either W/W or T/W, but why say it this way instead of just pondering whether Axel is a buddy or not? That doesn't seem to jive with your "are they trying to figure each other out" possibility, either, as that would only happen with T/T.
If I'm wrong about Cross being scum then I have to reevaluate my reads and that includes Cross's scum read of Axel.
I feel like my question (in 265) was essentially what KJ asked in 267. Why did you give me this dismissive response while going into detail when responding to KJ?
@Cantripmancer - Because we're so diametrically opposed on our reads of the slot, can you talk to me in more detail about what you don't like about Proph? I await a glorious wall of evaluation.
Sure, but it'll have to wait until tonight. Because I'm out of time.
(As a random aside: One of my bigger pet peeves I've seen floating around recently is when people say "lunch me right now in f7/f5/whatever so I don't get mislunched in f3". This is such a stupid stance to take because if you know you're town, and there is one wolf remaining, then advocating for your own mislunch just so that you don't bear responsibility in f3 is basically you just throwing the game away. You should just work on lunching literally any other person, because that's someone's alignment you don't know, and that's a chance that you can end the game right there. If you DO end up in f3 or whatever, the game isn't lost. You might have to give it your all and/or try your hardest, but the game isn't over just because you got to f3.)
FWIW, I've recently made comments like this, and (for me) it's not "oh, the game is over; I hate losing!!!" going into the f3. It's that I feel a lot of pressure and responsibility to do a good job, and I seem to inevitably choke.
Note to self: had 278, 280, 281, 299 in the multi-quote to respond to when I ran out of time.
Dangit; I promised myself I wouldn't fall behind this time!
I've read up to current, have many responses I want to make, but they'll have to wait until morning. And I *will* post in the morning.
I know we're no longer to indicate deadline preference in-thread, but if the deadline is extended, a PSA: my weekend, especially being a holiday one, is going to be very busy. I *may* have opportunity for in-depth posting, but I may only be able to skim and post the most pertinent. My daytimes (I'm MST) will likely be spent nowhere near an internet signal. So...my apologies in advance.
A few quick points:
-- Dangit. I thought Cross was Bur or--with a hopeful heart--an outside possibility of Tom. Ah well.
-- With Osie behind the portrait, I'm still pretty much at a townlean, although not as strong. I thought Axel's points against Osie were pretty insightful, and even if I don't necessarily agree with all of them, Axel is certainly trending upward for me.
-- I'm also liking DV a bit more.
-- Still have Proph as most likely scum, but I *have* liked some of his responses. I'll go into more detail when I'm not exhausted.
-- Alas, poor OsieBell. Adieu.
-- Greetings G_J!
Disagree. That quoted post with bolded emphasis feels like an aha moment, which is harder for scum to fake than town. Not impossible, but the conviction feels more likely town, too.
I actually reread the surrounding context and you're right. I can see how DoTA could come to the conclusion that Crossbell is scum for using Axel's meta as the basis for scumreading him, all the while Crossbell is dismissing Wisp's read on DV as "spewing wine into the thread". I'll read through more of DoTA's posts as I go on, but the bolded emphasis is a good catch and something I didn't fully comprehend as I was reading DoTA's post.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
It's not the content, it's the sharpness of the insight. Iirc, the feeling I often get from scum!KJ is sort of a meandering lost. He can't have sharp insights because he feels there's nothing to solve. He's honing in on something that he doesn't understand and applying focused scrutiny. I think that comes from town!KJ.
Okay. I don't think I've played with scum KJ in forever (I've wolfed against him a couple of times IIRC semi-recently) so I will continue to monitor how he is playing.
I like that you're willing to re-eval on these points.
Quote from Proph »
Quote from Cantripmancer »
I can see what you're saying a bit with 19 and 25, but I'm really not seeing the reactiveness of 8 or 29. I know you've recently re-evaluated Wisp townward, but given the conviction you were showing based on early game meta comparison, right now it just looks like you've decided that trying to get Wisp mis-eliminated isn't worth the effort and you're going to push elsewhere. (I saw your explanation, and I don't want to ask you to provide more detail because I generally agree with what you "found", but your change in position is a bit, as you say, jarring.)
The reason why I thought his post 8 was clumsy was because he didn't lead off with an RVS vote, and he did a LOT of this type of behavior when we wolfed together in Darling. (At first I thought this was indicative of wolf him, but thinking about it more critically I think it means he might be town, because I don't think he would do this type of outreach if he rolled scum again)
Fair.
Quote from Proph »
Post 29 still strikes me as a little weird. Not really sure what he is implying when he says "hmm, hard debate on which of you I would kill first". Does he mean in a hypothetical world where he randed scum, he would have trouble figuring out which one of me or DV to nightkill N1?
That's what I took it as, but maybe @Wisp could confirm?
Up until less than 12 hours ago, we were bifurcated on Wisp as well, and I think there's a good chance you're mafia, so are you really that surprised that our reads don't align? Looking forward to you sorting and responding to my questions.
I'm surprised because I think we have similar playstyles and ways of approaching the game. I'm also town, so I'm trying to figure out if you pushing me is you attempting to actively sort me or if you are trying to get me mislunched. (Gun to head, I think it's the former, but I know your scumgame is good - which is why I am putting you at arm's length)
Ok. I mean, even if you say we have similar playstyles (which I agree with), feelings about any given individual's posts are going to vary from player to player, so...yeah.
My scumread on DV boils down to a couple of things:
1) Out of all of the votes on the Crossbell wagon, his feels the most agenda-driven. With an exception, he's been pretty gung-ho about not liking Crossbell or I. I fear that he may be trying to chain mislunches (he's tunnelling Crossbell, then when he flips town he will shift to focus to me)
2) I feel like his posts have been kind of narrow? Like he doesn't show much insight into his thought process for his townreads, and he went from post 223 to 327 without really catching up.
3) PoE. Think if Crossbell is town, there's likely at least scum on his wagon. I like Grape atm, and DoTA may be town. We'll see on Axel after he completes his catchup.
I have to say that I do like this post from DV though. It's self meta, but it reads as somewhat genuine.
Quote from DV »
This is a severe misunderstanding of my scum rage game play. Typically as scum I argue about pendantic ***** to appear playing the game and then get annoyed by players ignoring my correct statements.
Its likely hard for players to seperate that from my town game play, because my town play focused on specific things but for me it was always with a purpose. Maybe not a purpose that other players understood, but a purpose none the less. Largely my town reads/gameplay in the last 5(? more maybe) years hyper evolved into me taking an active role to get players to respond to me to see these specific things/meta reads and that turned into me largely bullying people/becoming more toxic as I took the game too seriously.
My scum games I'd just get mad because people would say that something I did was a scum tell or something really dumb and then I'd just use that as a cover for my aimlessness which is in my opinion always been my biggest scum tell. Really though what I'm trying to get across is that it wasn't fake, it was always anger misplaced as it may have been.
This is feeling more like town!Proph.
I have no more responses, but I do have more thoughts, but I'm also out of time. So more when I can.
He also skips giving an opinion on Grape, who by this point has engaged with several players and posted a Crossbell/Osie ISO.
As for his last paragraph, I agree with what Wisp said in 502, 503 and 506. I don't see how KJ got to a scumread of D_V and Wisp there, his reasoning seems flimsy.
I also didn't like the hammer post. In his post above he says Osie is "fine I guess".
Four posts later (the posts between are talking to Wisp and D_V):
A lot of his posts, when read individually didn't do much for me. Tone was fine, I guess. For the most part.
There were a few things that were off though when I ISO'd him just now.
Firstly, in 98, he had a lot of words for why DV was scum, but still had Axel as biggest scum for some reason.
I also don't think he and Wisp are scum together for the back and forth between them following this being very awkward.
But the biggest problem for me ends up being his progression onto his scumreads. As of 197, he was scumreading DV and Axel still as far as I could tell, but he offers to vote DotA with DV (who I don't think he'd said anyone about at that point) which... really makes no sense to me.
By 256 his reads don't seem to really have any substance, he's on Axel and DotA now, and he still really hasn't said too much about DotA yet.
By 360 he's flipped on me out of nowhere, now I'm suddenly a possibility and he's seriously entertaining me being scum despite continuously saying he thought I was town for various reasons.
All in all he feels like he's just kinda trying to yeet someone that he doesn't actually naturally scumread.
So that's what I got from his ISO. TBH I didn't really try really hard to read him before because I'm always so bad at it, and was gonna put it off till over Night/Tomorrow just because I didn't want to deal with it. So, er, sorry about that?
He now has a scum read of Osie, but doesn't believe Osie and Wisp could be scum together.
Then...
I'm just gonna blatantly copy Axel and ISO Cantrip first because 12 posts.
Cantrip seems at first glance to not be putting as much thought into his reads as I'm used to. 151 is obviously fairly shallow. Particularly his scumlean of DV. He says he hates reading DV, which I interpret as he thought a lot/everything DV was doing was scummy... but there's no specifics. Cantrip is the type of player who would have specific reasons for disliking someone generally, and his choice not to specify those reasons in his list here doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense to me. Actually there's a second possible meaning to "I hate reading DV" and that's that he just dislikes trying to discern his alignment... but then the Scumlean comes out of nowhere and still has no stated reasons. Note: He says of DotA: Townlean for insight into my play.
In 241 is progression on his DotA read. It's notable because it's kinda just a reaction to DotA's vote on Cross, but contradicts Proph's read on the same vote. Cantrip seems to come down on it being a townie post from DotA.
In 245, he says "It's not the content, it's the sharpness of the insight. Iirc, the feeling I often get from scum!KJ is sort of a meandering lost. He can't have sharp insights because he feels there's nothing to solve. He's honing in on something that he doesn't understand and applying focused scrutiny. I think that comes from town!KJ." @Cantrip: What games have I been scum against you? I can't remember.
It's entirely possible this read is actually fake in order to placate Proph here. This kinda makes me think that Proph and Cantrip are unaligned, because Cantrip probably doesn't make a potentially demonstrably false statement like this to placate his buddy during theatre.
Note: he (possibly jokingly) claims that DV might be town for, I assume, a natural sounding post 178.
In 265: "That is...a weird way to conclude your statement. Your suspicion of Cross is apparent, so I get that you think they're either W/W or T/W, but why say it this way instead of just pondering whether Axel is a buddy or not? That doesn't seem to jive with your "are they trying to figure each other out" possibility, either, as that would only happen with T/T." This feels nitpicky, His point wrt DotA is that is doesn't mesh with DotA's assertion that Axel and Crossbell potentially weren't actually trying to figure each other out (which implies that they are buddies performing theatre) but Cantrip has issues with the way DotA worded his argument, acting as if DotA contradicted himself when he really didn't. I'm not sure there's a remarkable difference between asking if Axel and Cross were buddies and saying DotA didn't think it's T/T, or even a difference between asking if it's T/W or W/W.
In conclusion: I'm actually thinking he might be a wolf here, because I'm not seeing the extensive probing I'm used to, and specfically I'm not seeing thoughtful Cantrip I'm used to seeing. I don't think this is time constraints, I think it's just Cantrip acting abnormal.
Coloring added to seperate quotes from my thoughts.
K so I think based on gameflow, perhaps the scum build of this game is one low poster/one high poster. This game doesn't feel overly dominated by scum (there's not like a couple townreads dominating the game that were somehow not nightkilled N1 or something like that) so not exactly Wisp/Proph.
I feel like Axel is being really passive to be the lead scum. He's making a lot of big opinion posts, but isn't pushing really. Axel hasn't really been too proactive either, so he could be scum.
Grape has 4 wolf reads in the GTHH in 775, which is unusual for scum to do. Also his progression on his reads feel natural.
Between Wisp and Proph, in the event that I'm right here and there's one in the top posters... I think Proph is less liekly to be scum there.
Axel or DotA + Wisp for scum? The scum don't really have another really good leader, and I feel like they have one.
Now the scum team is Wisp and Axel or Wisp and myself.
I thought he meant to ask about Axel, because that was the only read I could think of that he might have thought of since you never switched your read on Osie's slot
That's what confused me as well. It seems he was asking about me moving from a town lean before the replacement to a scum read after, which makes no sense. And if KJ did mean Axel, the question still doesn't make sense.
I'd have to go find what I asked u back then
Why doesn't it make sense? Either way?
Scenario 1 (What was asked): KJ is asking how I went from a townlean on Cross/Osie to a scumread of GJ. I never had a townlean on Crossbell so where is he getting that from?
Scenario 2 (What you suspect he meant to ask): How do I get from a townlean on Axel to a scumread of GJ? Why would KJ ask this, and how would he confuse Cross/Osie for Axel?
Yo, everyone. We have two mafia. Who do you currently think they are? I would just like 2 names in your next post. Don’t care if you explain why right now. (I know some people have already done this, please just re-state for the record)
DoTA and Grape checked in but did not answer this. Killjoy has not checked in since I asked. Still want this.
Right now, Killjoy and Cantrip/Eco, but I'm still busy with the read through. Should have time tonight (few hours from now).
Three impossible teams, DV flipped town and I know my alignment. Definite scum in his early townreads...
@Dote what grabbed you about the Osie/Crossbell team building post? Feels weird to mention definite scum in his early town reads when talking about someone who flipped town.
When I was rereading I noticed the team building and made the note to keep track of his reads, since DV flipped town and I know I'm town, he was obviously fooled by someone into thinking they're town. Was a note to self to keep track of how his reads developed from that point.
I read DoTA's post 823 but the structure of the post is really confusing to me. I felt that it was a lot of IIoA (information instead of analysis), though, which doesn't reflect super well on DoTA. He's also not giving a whole lot of insight into the genuineness of his mindset with that post. Just "here are my notes, KJ looks more town, Cantrip and Wisp look more scummy". Like, there's no pizzazz or attempt to convince others that he is right at all.
There's nothing to convince anyone of yet, I'm not even halfway through the reread. It was 2am when I got to the end of page 5, so I added the links for the quotes and dropped the notes I'd taken into the thread.
I thought he meant to ask about Axel, because that was the only read I could think of that he might have thought of since you never switched your read on Osie's slot
That's what confused me as well. It seems he was asking about me moving from a town lean before the replacement to a scum read after, which makes no sense. And if KJ did mean Axel, the question still doesn't make sense.
Dota comes back to write that one post, after writing an unfinished wall post, saying he is going to continue catching up
and he doesn't even attempt to answer my questions, only killjoys
Can you repeat any questions I missed? I had a quick look back but I didn't see any direct questions apart from one which you answered yourself in your next post.
As for the reread I haven't forgotten (I need to carry on from page 6), things are just a bit rough here at the moment. Been struggling to concentrate these past few days (life issues).
Dota comes back to write that one post, after writing an unfinished wall post, saying he is going to continue catching up
and he doesn't even attempt to answer my questions, only killjoys
also I will answer his question to Killjoy cause I'm not waiting
Nowhere in Dota's iso does he call GJ a town lean, which Killjoy missing that probably means he swapped GJ with Axel's name in his question, because that progression makes more sense with Killjoy's question
Killjoy asked me about a Cross/Osie townread, not GJ. Not sure where you get that he mixed up Axels name in there.
So I'm reading through DoTa and have a couple questions: First can you draw me a line from your slight townread on Cross to your scumread on GJ? How much did you consider the previous read when evaluating GJ and why was GJ's posting so bad?
Where did I ever mention a town read on Cross?
And, you asked Wisp "Why ask Cross and Proph instead of me?" in response to his asking Cross and Proph if you're usually abrupt with your votes... but the conversation seems to end there in your ISO. Did you get a satisfactory answer to that question, and what about his asking not you do you have opinions about?
If you did not get a satisfactory answer, why did that line of questioning end there?
Wisp's answer made sense, which is why I did not pursue it. As he said he was asking for an outside opinion as any answer I gave would be self biased.
Worked through the first few pages, haven't had time to properly organise all my thoughts so I'm just posting the notes I made while reading.
The TLDR is: Last and Cantrip are at the bottom of my T/S list by the end of page 5, KJ looking better in retrospect of this.
Post 151 Cantripmancer -
Town read of Crossbell/Osie seems a bit light. Grape calls this out in 152.
Response in post 236
The meta read is actually playing a lot stronger here than I think I realized. Each subsequent post makes me feel like it's more likely who I think it is, and I'm freaking loving it. (Spoiler: I'm probably completely wrong, because I'm almost always wrong on these things, but something something blind squirrel...) I'm also happy with the volume of output. Again, not necessarily town on its own, but in combination with everything, feels indicative to me. The Axel read still doesn't meld with me (nor the DoTa one, tbf), but the meta dive at least lets me see where Cross is coming from.
Leaning heavily on a meta read of Cross even while uncertain on who the alt is. Slightly contradictory statement here.
-----------
Killjoy read also light. Calls KJ paranoid TownKJ for post 150 but there’s no paranoia there, just a question to DV
Hey DV, I'd like to know why you think Crossbell potentially has inside info for what is obviously a reaction to Proph's play? That post is obviously "Proph is town [based on something unsaid as of yet] but you jumped straight to inside info/discrediting. What gives there?
Proph asks about this in post 166.
Response in post 245:
It's not the content, it's the sharpness of the insight. Iirc, the feeling I often get from scum!KJ is sort of a meandering lost. He can't have sharp insights because he feels there's nothing to solve. He's honing in on something that he doesn't understand and applying focused scrutiny. I think that comes from town!KJ.
-----------
Has a townread on me for trying to solve, especially for my insight into KJ, but doesn’t mention my Cross/Osie analysis/vote from post 139. “Insight into KJ” was just me pointing out that KJ saw something I didn’t in the early RVS posts (possible distancing) and wouldn’t mention it as scum. This is speculation on my part, townlean not solid townread. Would make more sense to have pointed out Cross vote imo.
Mentions my Cross post/vote in post 241, but hadn’t really posted anything in between 151 and 241. Still think it should have come up in his catch up post in 151 as it forms part of his townread of me.
Post 155 Crossbell/Osie -
Axel-Cantrip
Axel-DoTA X
Axel-DV X
Axel-KJ
Axel-Wisp
Cantrip-DoTA X
Cantrip-DV X
DoTA-DV X
DV-Grape X
Grape-KJ
KJ-Wisp
After removing townreads, ends up with:
Axel-DoTA
Axel-DV
DoTA-DV
Three impossible teams, DV flipped town and I know my alignment. Definite scum in his early townreads...
Post 156 Lastwhisper -
Calls Osie’s townlean on Proph a stretch. Last line stands out
Maybe if Proph finds a wolf lean that's not me, that I can evaluate, I might think about moving him up
Post 183 Lastwhisper -
Similar to post 156 above, asks Proph to talk to him when he has a scum read on someone other than him, throws out a townread on DV. Looking back, previous DV mentions from Wisp to this point:
Quote from Post 29 »
Quote from D_V »
If I die tonight snap vote wisp out of the game thanks.
That's all I got so far.
ya that's fair game too, lol
didn't realize you were in this game
hmm, hard debate on which of you I would kill first
Quote from Post 55 »
(answer to a question from DV)
Lastwhisper is an outdated name anyways. I am Wisp or Wiisp on almost every site nowadays
Quote from Post 72 »
DV
Axel
Grape
Everyone else
Proph
Cross
DV is top townread without any mention to date?
Quote from Post 75 »
DV - might still be a wolf, but I am mind-melding with his thought process, I think he is decent enough at pushing an agenda, but I don't think this is how he approaches it as a wolf. Overall I think he is veeeeery likely to be town
Might still be a wolf? Hasn’t said anything about a read on DV to this point. Claims to be mindmelding with DV but keeping options open?
This is the next mention of DV here in 183 “still probably not DV”
Looking for further info.
Post 191 DV -
Suspects Lastwhisper might be trying to pocket him
Post 230 Lastwhisper -
@Proph
I would probably see myself voting Dota, as it stands at the moment
not that I necessarily have a read on KJ or Grape, but I think its correct to vote in the lower posters, then trying to figure out if consistent posters are being malicious
I can pull out reasons to like, as well as hate you, but that's mostly tone, and I know how much u hate tonal reads
the same goes for Crossbell, but on a macro level, the reasons to town lean him, heavily outweigh the reasons to wolf read him
I can also pull out reasons to like DV/Axel
which leaves a PoE of Cantrip/KJ/Grape/Dota
I am hoping I can lower that PoE more so as day 1 goes on
also I agree that we shouldn't be putting people to L2
but at the same time, its been stated several times that Cross is at L2, so any new vote isn't really "blissful ignorance", at this point
well actually he should be L3 now, since one of the voters was DV
I am curious to see how Dota re-evaluates Crossbell
No solid reads on anyone, can go either way on most. “Can also pull out reasons to like DV/Axel” Strange way to talk about his top two townreads from 60 posts back with nothing indicating a change of heart in between.
Mentions a Cantrip/KJ/Grape/DoTA PoE.
Cross/Osie in post 98:
the other mafia team member I suspect to be one of KJ/Cantrip/Archon.
DV in post 194:
0 - 2 scum exist in Dota, KJ, Grape and Cantrip. Conclusion Dota, KJ, Grape and Cantrip are a better place to vote out right now. Not sure where to point though.
Keeping options open to see which way the wind blows with the now confirmed two townies?
Posts 231 and 235 Prophylaxis -
Meta checked and re-ISO’s Wisp, moves from scumread to townlean. Likes post 230 from Wisp but as above, 230 looks very non-committal to me.
Post 250 Crossbell -
Notes to refer back to Wisp’s 230 at a later point. (looking for follow up on this)
DotaArchon, the guy who plays my favorite game. I just haven't liked his tone. I thought his post about me/Axel being unlikely V/V, but more likely W/V or W/W just reads bad.
Favourite game? What about my tone seems off to you?
@Axel: Took the words right out of my mouth.
You seem to want a force a dichotomy there, and it felt like a particulary forced one as well. Yeah, you say we might be V/V but that's not where you seem to lean. If we assume I never subbed in, would you still have thought Axel could be w/w with me?
I wasn't trying to push a dichotomy at all. There are more town players than scum players so T/T is not something that can ever be ruled out entirely except in very specific circumstances. But I was more inclined to believe it was either T/W or W/W, based on my belief that yours is a scumslot. To answer your question, my read of Axel moved from null to townread when he made this post. So no, I moved on from the W/W possibility even before the replacement.
I'm still convinced you're the right vote for today, especially after you posted this:
Interesting that Axel is on your eliminate list, I've found him to be townier as he posts more.
Tempted to hammer, but I still owe you an answer from earlier and this day is not over yet.
The bolded is so bad, I can't believe anyone is even considering me.
Vote DotArchon
You list the order you want players eliminated if you're voted out, with Grape as your top read, in the same post accuse Axel of having an agenda, and then vote me seven posts later when I point out that I want you eliminated. With the amount of discussion your slot has generated your's would be the most informative flip for today, especially to me as you've been my top scum read for the majority of the day.
DotaArchon, the guy who plays my favorite game. I just haven't liked his tone. I thought his post about me/Axel being unlikely V/V, but more likely W/V or W/W just reads bad.
Favourite game? What about my tone seems off to you?
@DoTArchon: I want you to zoom out a little. What are your thoughts on players in this game not named Killjoy, Crossbell, or Axelrod?
As for you Proph, I have a similar difficulty with you as with Wisp, as most of your posts have either been talking with the two of them, or with others about the two of them. I can't understand your solid towncore read of you/Wisp/Osie, but that is mostly because my top scumread is in there.
I've liked your engagement with people outside of your towncore though, like this question to me. You're asking people to look beyond just one or two reads and to evaluate the game as a whole.
Looking over your ISO I'm having a paranoid moment thinking you and Osie could be scum together, deciding in scumchat to push for being top posters in the game by focusing on conversing with one another and Wisp,especially since Osie decided to emulate you. It seems like too easy a trap to fall into though, so I'm trying not to give too much thought to it.
This post:There's a few things in this post that I think sound fabricated.
His first point regarding Axel, it was Osie who had a scumread of him and a few people pointing out to Osie that his opening to the game was well within his meta. D_V, Proph, Wisp and Cantrip all disagreed with Osie about Axel to some degree, so I don't get where KJ comes up with the idea that Axel got a lot of heat.
Eleven of Cantrip's twelve posts were made before this one, and most people had formulated at least some opinion of him by this point. Accusing Cantrip of using a lot of words sounds like an excuse to skip giving a read on him. For posterity, this is all of Cantrip's posts up to this point:
He also skips giving an opinion on Grape, who by this point has engaged with several players and posted a Crossbell/Osie ISO.
As for his last paragraph, I agree with what Wisp said in 502, 503 and 506. I don't see how KJ got to a scumread of D_V and Wisp there, his reasoning seems flimsy.
I also didn't like the hammer post. In his post above he says Osie is "fine I guess".
Four posts later (the posts between are talking to Wisp and D_V):
Then...
before hammering GJ.
Day 2 begins and suddenly he has a scumread of Cantrip, who's only other mention was in the first post quoted:
And again, just a few posts later:
Now the scum team is Wisp and Axel or Wisp and myself.
Or Wisp and Eco (after Wisp calls him out on it)
So 4 players out of the remaining 7 are scumreads here according to him, and in his previous post he specifically states:
Vote: Killjoy
Scenario 1 (What was asked): KJ is asking how I went from a townlean on Cross/Osie to a scumread of GJ. I never had a townlean on Crossbell so where is he getting that from?
Scenario 2 (What you suspect he meant to ask): How do I get from a townlean on Axel to a scumread of GJ? Why would KJ ask this, and how would he confuse Cross/Osie for Axel?
Right now, Killjoy and Cantrip/Eco, but I'm still busy with the read through. Should have time tonight (few hours from now).
When I was rereading I noticed the team building and made the note to keep track of his reads, since DV flipped town and I know I'm town, he was obviously fooled by someone into thinking they're town. Was a note to self to keep track of how his reads developed from that point.
As for the reread I haven't forgotten (I need to carry on from page 6), things are just a bit rough here at the moment. Been struggling to concentrate these past few days (life issues).
Wisp's answer made sense, which is why I did not pursue it. As he said he was asking for an outside opinion as any answer I gave would be self biased.
The TLDR is: Last and Cantrip are at the bottom of my T/S list by the end of page 5, KJ looking better in retrospect of this.
Post 151 Cantripmancer -
Town read of Crossbell/Osie seems a bit light. Grape calls this out in 152.
Response in post 236
Leaning heavily on a meta read of Cross even while uncertain on who the alt is. Slightly contradictory statement here.
-----------
Killjoy read also light. Calls KJ paranoid TownKJ for post 150 but there’s no paranoia there, just a question to DV
Proph asks about this in post 166.
Response in post 245:
-----------
Has a townread on me for trying to solve, especially for my insight into KJ, but doesn’t mention my Cross/Osie analysis/vote from post 139. “Insight into KJ” was just me pointing out that KJ saw something I didn’t in the early RVS posts (possible distancing) and wouldn’t mention it as scum. This is speculation on my part, townlean not solid townread. Would make more sense to have pointed out Cross vote imo.
Mentions my Cross post/vote in post 241, but hadn’t really posted anything in between 151 and 241. Still think it should have come up in his catch up post in 151 as it forms part of his townread of me.
Post 155 Crossbell/Osie -
After removing townreads, ends up with:
Three impossible teams, DV flipped town and I know my alignment. Definite scum in his early townreads...
Post 156 Lastwhisper -
Calls Osie’s townlean on Proph a stretch. Last line stands out
Post 183 Lastwhisper -
Similar to post 156 above, asks Proph to talk to him when he has a scum read on someone other than him, throws out a townread on DV. Looking back, previous DV mentions from Wisp to this point:
DV is top townread without any mention to date?
Might still be a wolf? Hasn’t said anything about a read on DV to this point. Claims to be mindmelding with DV but keeping options open?
This is the next mention of DV here in 183 “still probably not DV”
Looking for further info.
Post 191 DV -
Suspects Lastwhisper might be trying to pocket him
Post 230 Lastwhisper -
No solid reads on anyone, can go either way on most. “Can also pull out reasons to like DV/Axel” Strange way to talk about his top two townreads from 60 posts back with nothing indicating a change of heart in between.
Mentions a Cantrip/KJ/Grape/DoTA PoE.
Cross/Osie in post 98:
DV in post 194:
Keeping options open to see which way the wind blows with the now confirmed two townies?
Posts 231 and 235 Prophylaxis -
Meta checked and re-ISO’s Wisp, moves from scumread to townlean. Likes post 230 from Wisp but as above, 230 looks very non-committal to me.
Post 250 Crossbell -
Notes to refer back to Wisp’s 230 at a later point. (looking for follow up on this)
I'll be on in a few hours, after work/family
I'm still convinced you're the right vote for today, especially after you posted this:
Vote: Gentleman Johnny
Tempted to hammer, but I still owe you an answer from earlier and this day is not over yet.
Hello GJ, long time.
Favourite game? What about my tone seems off to you?
@Axel: Took the words right out of my mouth.