It's quite probable that hurting the fair decks of the format by removing their ramp + pressure one-mana planeswalker would advantage unfair decks too much to be worth it.
Why should it? Fair decks were doing great before DRS (the term 'Maverick Summer' comes to mind). Meanwhile fair decks have gotten at least as many toys as the unfair decks.
Either way, if The format is unhealthy, something should be banned. If that makes something else too powerful, then something else needs a ban.
They have tons of data from MTGO Competitive leagues and Format Challenges to go on as far as DRS' prevalence goes, and if you look at the results, sometimes they surprise you in how DRS isn't always the top dog.
Its not an issue of single card prevalence. Its an issue of play-style prevalence. Are the good-stuff fair decks too homogenous and simultaneously too abundant? That's the question at hand.
...it does pop up in multiple archetypes (aggro, tempo, control, even combo to an extent if you consider Elves) enough to say that it doesn't put any one deck or archetype at the forefront of the format.
Elves are the exception. Everything else that runs DRS is a midrange deck or Grixis Delver. Grixis Delver itself is a slower-than-usual tempo deck. Cabal Therapy (and DRS too) are not tempo positive plays.
Even Elves has a midrange backup plan, and DRS shines there.
DRS without a doubt pushes fair, good-stuff aggro/control decks. BS enables a wider range of styles, and is less a threat to diversity.
...how long does a card need to warp the format around it for in order to be okay?
12 years (plus) wasn't long enough for Top.
Point is, of diversity suffers, it is never okay. If WotC choose to grant DRS "sacred cow" status, that only means they need to ban something else if DRS decks become a problem. I think they would have a hard time finding a suitable card for such a goal.
For the record, I am not asking for a DRS ban, but if the future looks too much like the top-16 from Birmingham, something needs to give.
I agree with you about the unbans, but that's kind of off topic as they would do nothing to address the actual point of contention.
the card has not become ingrained like broken Brainstorm has.
Why hasn't it, by this point? RTR is like 6 years old by now. That's more than enough time for a staple to become ingrained.
That's an interesting notion.
WotC (apparently) see BS as a card that Legacy players love to play with. Same deal with Workshop in Vintage. It could very well make sense for WotC to look at DRS the same way.
The only trick is, if BS and DRS are both protected, what could WotC possibly ban if they want to simultaneously hurt Grisix Delver + Czech Pile (plus other BUGx midrange piles)? Any other ban would look awfully silly I think.
For the most part I am not a fan of "hand disruption" Rats. If we had a Rat like Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, that would be great! But the Rats we have tend do too little to wreck our opponent (but to much to annoy them). I took the Miser Rats out of my deck because they either did nothing or they did very little but got me constantly attacked. I think Rotting Rats is terrible - the discard is symmetric and we are not a deck that really wants our cards in the graveyard.
That said, Nezumi Cutthroat is also weak. Fear is not so hot given our General imbues this already. And a 2/1 attacker is not very good in EDH.
Bone-Reader I kind of like. You make a lot of black mana with your "Cabal" lands, so if you can flood the board with tokens you should have a good chance to completely strip some hands out (particularly the hands that are likely holding sweepers). It's a hard card to use well if you don't have a strong board already, so that's the downside.
Swarm Of Rats is also pretty good. If you play it the turn before you go off with Thornbite Staff, you can kill a player right away.
So I like swapping Cutthroat for Bone-Reader, but I would keep Swarm over Rotting Rats.
I'm surprised you ate not playing the "good" Rats I mentioned though. Throat-Slitter, Nezumi Graverobber, Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni, and Crypt Rats. These cards are actually good enough to see play outside of Rat tribal.
I've been a bit busy lately, but look forward to ongoing discussions with another Rat player.
I really dig Bontu's Monument. Somehow that card had passed under my radar. It also makes me cringe even more at the thought of removing Thrumming Stone! But I think our metas are a little different. Thrumming Stone doesn't draw nearly as much fire when decks like Super-Friends, Elves, etc, are not uncommon. Also I see a lot of sweepers. That makes Stone less threatening. But also more fun, because I rarely win just by dropping it and going off. Often I'll stop after 6-12 Rats just to hold a good position and draw the Wraths. If your playgroup is softer to combo, I can see Thrumming Stone being a big target (and not much fun).
As for Rings and Thawing Glaciers for some reason my three local card shops have outrageous prices and players hold onto these specific cards till their final breath.
Not much else to add. Run more tutors and more ramp if you want a more competitive deck, but only you can know the right power-level to have fun games with your group.
Best of luck, and enjoy your rats!
I'm curious as what ya'll believe are the most versatile duals in terms of flexibility for future deck building? I currently have x3 Scrubland, x3 Badlands, x1 Plateau, x1 Bayou, x1 Underground Sea, & x1 Tropical Island. I had also planned on trying to complete the set of Bayou, so I could play Elves, but then I saw the price of Gaea's Cradle and quickly abandoned that plan. So right now I'm just trying to lay down some sort of mana foundation that I can build on in the future. I really appreciate any thoughts or suggestions; thanks, folks!
If I were you I would pick one deck you really like, and get that manabase. Your secondary decks will be relegated to mostly decks w/o RL lands (Burn, Fish, D&T, Manaless Dredge, Omnitell, Oops, etc). You have a lot of traders - so try to turn your mish-mash dual land collection into something actually playable:
Trade into 4x City Of Traitors. This opens you up to Eldrazi, Moon Stompy, MUD, etc. Some Eldrazi lists can get away with just 2 or 3 (especially Big Eldrazi) if for some reason you can't get all 4.
Trade into 4x Cradle and a second Bayou. This builds only Elves, but that's a fascinating deck with many deep lines of play. Ideally you would want a Taiga for splashing purposes. You might also want a Savannah and Trop for more thorough options, but these are not really necessary right now.
You can go for the Green midrange package. If you can get the right combination of Savannahs, Bayous, and Taigas you can build Maverick, Nic Fit, Jund, etc. A single Badlands and Scrubland opens that up to Aggro Loam (but Moxen might be a problem).
EDIT - 2 or 3 Bayous will also let you play Depths combo.
(mulitcoloured) Blue decks are trickier. For most Midrange or Tempo decks, you will need multiples of Trop, Volc, and probably Seas as well.
3-4 Tundras + ideally a Volc opens the door to Miracles (and possible Stoneblade). 4x Volc lets you play U/R Prowess (Delver). 4x Trop is all you need for Infect. 2 Seas, or 1 Sea plus a Trop, lets you play Death's Shadow.
Bottom line - you are going in too many directions right now. Pick something to focus on.
Best of luck!
It's way more playable, and an essential part of a winning Legacy deck that will never be reprinted. I wish that I could be surprised, but this is the world in which we live.
When Vintage was more popular than Legacy, you needed Black Lotus to play. You don't need Tabernacle in Legacy unless you want to play a weird deck that is not everybody's cup of tea.
Certainly a trophy card, but I'm not sure that comparison is apt.
That's better than their attitude the game as a whole since Lorwyn where they've been catering almost 100% to newbs and curbing anything that turns off said newbs.
I guess it´s a casual format for people that are already playing Standard?
I think Brawl is meant to be an entry format for casuals that is affordable and provides a gateway into Standard. Back in the day rookies would play 60 card casual (with mostly newer cards) and often tune their decks for FNM after they got a little experience. MTG currently lacks a casual format that feeds into Standard like this.
Not sure how it will do. I'm not really the target.
as the message finally sinks in that successful eternal formats cost and that Christmas comes once a year..
Pauper seems to be taking off - and it's unlikely tier-1 decks will ever hit Standard level prices (much less come even close to Modern prices).
Pauper is less gimmicky than TL (and has no affordable alternative, where TL was competing with EDH). Pauper lacks Frontiers issues too, with a huge cardpool and diverse archetypes. Unless WotC from nds a way to sabotage it, Pauper will be the Eternal format of the future.
A supply of new players who have not been sheltered from the "evils" of combo, control, LD, and prison.
More "unfun" cards entering the cardpool. Legacy is (near) overrun with aggro-control decks (midrange and tempo). Pure control decks are rare, prison only exists in aggro or combo hybrid builds, and linear aggro has been reduced to only Burn.
i feel pauper is the new popular eternal format. with no chase mythics to sell sets i expect something else to come along but for now pauper looks good
Basically this.
Here is a format that is a fraction of the cost of playing Standard, but with diverse decks and interactive gameplay that is closer to Legacy than Modern is.
'They' was used as a gender-neutral singular pronoun throughout most of the modern English language. It was the late 19th century when a group of English aristocrats created "prescriptive grammar" in attempt to rewrite the rules of the language (and make English more like Latin).
I'm still waiting for enemy filter lands from Odyssey!
Why should it? Fair decks were doing great before DRS (the term 'Maverick Summer' comes to mind). Meanwhile fair decks have gotten at least as many toys as the unfair decks.
Either way, if The format is unhealthy, something should be banned. If that makes something else too powerful, then something else needs a ban.
Its not an issue of single card prevalence. Its an issue of play-style prevalence. Are the good-stuff fair decks too homogenous and simultaneously too abundant? That's the question at hand.
Elves are the exception. Everything else that runs DRS is a midrange deck or Grixis Delver. Grixis Delver itself is a slower-than-usual tempo deck. Cabal Therapy (and DRS too) are not tempo positive plays.
Even Elves has a midrange backup plan, and DRS shines there.
DRS without a doubt pushes fair, good-stuff aggro/control decks. BS enables a wider range of styles, and is less a threat to diversity.
DRS is less than 6 years old. SDT was over twice that old when it got the axe. Whoever said cards are grandfathered in after ~5 years?
12 years (plus) wasn't long enough for Top.
Point is, of diversity suffers, it is never okay. If WotC choose to grant DRS "sacred cow" status, that only means they need to ban something else if DRS decks become a problem. I think they would have a hard time finding a suitable card for such a goal.
For the record, I am not asking for a DRS ban, but if the future looks too much like the top-16 from Birmingham, something needs to give.
I agree with you about the unbans, but that's kind of off topic as they would do nothing to address the actual point of contention.
WotC (apparently) see BS as a card that Legacy players love to play with. Same deal with Workshop in Vintage. It could very well make sense for WotC to look at DRS the same way.
The only trick is, if BS and DRS are both protected, what could WotC possibly ban if they want to simultaneously hurt Grisix Delver + Czech Pile (plus other BUGx midrange piles)? Any other ban would look awfully silly I think.
That said, Nezumi Cutthroat is also weak. Fear is not so hot given our General imbues this already. And a 2/1 attacker is not very good in EDH.
Bone-Reader I kind of like. You make a lot of black mana with your "Cabal" lands, so if you can flood the board with tokens you should have a good chance to completely strip some hands out (particularly the hands that are likely holding sweepers). It's a hard card to use well if you don't have a strong board already, so that's the downside.
Swarm Of Rats is also pretty good. If you play it the turn before you go off with Thornbite Staff, you can kill a player right away.
So I like swapping Cutthroat for Bone-Reader, but I would keep Swarm over Rotting Rats.
I'm surprised you ate not playing the "good" Rats I mentioned though. Throat-Slitter, Nezumi Graverobber, Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni, and Crypt Rats. These cards are actually good enough to see play outside of Rat tribal.
I've been a bit busy lately, but look forward to ongoing discussions with another Rat player.
I really dig Bontu's Monument. Somehow that card had passed under my radar. It also makes me cringe even more at the thought of removing Thrumming Stone! But I think our metas are a little different. Thrumming Stone doesn't draw nearly as much fire when decks like Super-Friends, Elves, etc, are not uncommon. Also I see a lot of sweepers. That makes Stone less threatening. But also more fun, because I rarely win just by dropping it and going off. Often I'll stop after 6-12 Rats just to hold a good position and draw the Wraths. If your playgroup is softer to combo, I can see Thrumming Stone being a big target (and not much fun).
My 1st EDH deck was Marrow-Gnawer with [card[Relentless Rats[/card]. 5 years later, it's still an old favourite.
Totally agree, I would not cut this card. In fact I would run 5 or 6+ more Rat Colonies if you want to be consistent.
Altar Of Dementia is a solid win-condition. If you run it with Mikokoro, or Geier Reach Sanitarium, you can kill at instant speed (and respond to Eldrazi triggers).
Rite Of Consumption is another good finisher. And Rogue's Passage can get the job done if Fear is not enough.
Myriad Landscape is a good alternative to thawing Glaciers.
Other suggestions:
I would run more Living Death effects (eg, Twilight's Call). Feldon's Cane is almost just as good if Thrumming Stone is live.
And you are missing some fun rats (and a fun rat-friend).
- Nezumi Graverobber
- Ink-Eyes, Servant Of Oni
- Throat Slitter
- Patron Of The Nezumi
I assume you are running Crypt Rats, and not Crypt Ghast (which is illegal)? Crypt Rats is great - especially with Swarmyard. Put a Vampiric Link on it too or a winning 3-card combo!Not much else to add. Run more tutors and more ramp if you want a more competitive deck, but only you can know the right power-level to have fun games with your group.
Best of luck, and enjoy your rats!
If I were you I would pick one deck you really like, and get that manabase. Your secondary decks will be relegated to mostly decks w/o RL lands (Burn, Fish, D&T, Manaless Dredge, Omnitell, Oops, etc). You have a lot of traders - so try to turn your mish-mash dual land collection into something actually playable:
- Trade into 4x City Of Traitors. This opens you up to Eldrazi, Moon Stompy, MUD, etc. Some Eldrazi lists can get away with just 2 or 3 (especially Big Eldrazi) if for some reason you can't get all 4.
- Trade into 4x Cradle and a second Bayou. This builds only Elves, but that's a fascinating deck with many deep lines of play. Ideally you would want a Taiga for splashing purposes. You might also want a Savannah and Trop for more thorough options, but these are not really necessary right now.
- You can go for the Green midrange package. If you can get the right combination of Savannahs, Bayous, and Taigas you can build Maverick, Nic Fit, Jund, etc. A single Badlands and Scrubland opens that up to Aggro Loam (but Moxen might be a problem).
EDIT - 2 or 3 Bayous will also let you play Depths combo.
- (mulitcoloured) Blue decks are trickier. For most Midrange or Tempo decks, you will need multiples of Trop, Volc, and probably Seas as well.
3-4 Tundras + ideally a Volc opens the door to Miracles (and possible Stoneblade). 4x Volc lets you play U/R Prowess (Delver). 4x Trop is all you need for Infect. 2 Seas, or 1 Sea plus a Trop, lets you play Death's Shadow.
Bottom line - you are going in too many directions right now. Pick something to focus on.Best of luck!
When Vintage was more popular than Legacy, you needed Black Lotus to play. You don't need Tabernacle in Legacy unless you want to play a weird deck that is not everybody's cup of tea.
Certainly a trophy card, but I'm not sure that comparison is apt.
I think Brawl is meant to be an entry format for casuals that is affordable and provides a gateway into Standard. Back in the day rookies would play 60 card casual (with mostly newer cards) and often tune their decks for FNM after they got a little experience. MTG currently lacks a casual format that feeds into Standard like this.
Not sure how it will do. I'm not really the target.
Pauper seems to be taking off - and it's unlikely tier-1 decks will ever hit Standard level prices (much less come even close to Modern prices).
Pauper is less gimmicky than TL (and has no affordable alternative, where TL was competing with EDH). Pauper lacks Frontiers issues too, with a huge cardpool and diverse archetypes. Unless WotC from nds a way to sabotage it, Pauper will be the Eternal format of the future.
But I do miss:
Yeah, I miss old design.
Here is a format that is a fraction of the cost of playing Standard, but with diverse decks and interactive gameplay that is closer to Legacy than Modern is.
This is the eternal format of the future.
'They' was used as a gender-neutral singular pronoun throughout most of the modern English language. It was the late 19th century when a group of English aristocrats created "prescriptive grammar" in attempt to rewrite the rules of the language (and make English more like Latin).
https://www.jstor.org/stable/4166805