I updated the Official Primer to include mention of Karn, the Great Creator. Is liquid metal a superior killing machine? Seems so at the moment. Who can argue with Fluffywolf taking Caligula's list (+ a few tweaks) and jamming down a 19-1 record in MTGO competitive play?
Of course, there is always room for improvement, and maybe a shift into a different theme of KARN Pyro Prison. @Butterynugs - welcome back! - flexed in the direction of land destruction off of main-decked Liquimetal Coating and Molten Rain. Fascinating idea. And, @FraktheGods going well past the simple addition of silver and bringing in 2 other colors
I find the contributions of Marulo particularly engaging. Only your 3rd post in Salvation, and you have a very strong handle on Pyro Prison and how it has TWO primary conflicts integrating Karn into 8-Rabble:
1.) As I wrote earlier, the 'off-axis' shift of executing an 8-Rabble assault into a non-board state changing 4-cmc Planeswalker that ultimately wins with a 6-cmc artifact. Seems a tad askew. But, the design is effective: EITHER win with a swarm or exhaust your opponent's resources, and then win with a 'wished out' lock. Of course, there are times where an early-mid game explosive move into a timely traditional power lock against your opponent might be just enough to shut them down.
2.) Games 2 and 3: What do we sideboard in and what do we leave in the sideboard with hopes that it can be located with Karn later? This provides a new dimension to sideboarding, and it ain't easy. I guess the simplest way to think of it is that the needed early drops can come into the mainboard, like a 4th Chalice or Spellskite or Spyglass or a single Torpor Orb. But, what about when you are also considering taking out Karns?? Then, do you abandon the whole 'wishboard' and try to go traditional Pyro Prison?
PUZZLE: Humans. Whatever happened to our favored matchup against Humans? Friggen' detention dude is what happened. Alright, but whining aside, how do we Karn Sideboard/Wishboard against Humans? My problem has been that I end up with very limited win conditions against them, and I am ultimately attempting to do a Turn 1/2 Chalice/Moon double-slam for the win.
Rarely have we heard so much debate on topic of LAND COUNT: 21 or 22 or 23?
Rituals - Lands - 4-CMC Count....
Where once Pyro Prison was a 'Tale of 2 Decks' and the hope to not draw the Wrong Half was a real concern (Aggro/Control or maybe a total whiff on 'Hot Air' cards like Rituals only). Now?
Now, it's totally fractured due to Karn. I can not emphasize it enough: Dig/Loot/Scry. The win is only 1 drawn card away.
Easiest way to start with an 8-Card hand? Zhalfirin Void
Look at this Opening Hand.
Would you Keep it?
Would you Keep it if the Z-Voids were Mountains?
Or Scavenging Grounds/Cavern of Souls/Blast Zone.....
Cue the Music!
"When you wish upon a Karn...."
you usually win
That's certainly been the trend lately. Caligula did his 8-Rabble Karn list, and then joined MTGO for the first time. Despite some user/clerical errors in interfacing since he's brand new, he is slamming down 4-1s. I've got a few with varying versions, and Fluffy did a few minor tweaks and erupted into a 15-0 run on Competitive Modern MODO. Outstanding.
How can one even dare to tinker with a list that is seemingly already perfect? Well, right from the outset, I saw a different path. And, there was friggen' trash strewn all over it along with footprints from a....dragon. Couldn't be! Yup, 'Trash Dragons' fly again! Here's my list from 6 months ago:
Trash Dragons -- No Littering? Ain't nobody got time for that! This deck is pretty far from 'green'. Red is rummage, scry, loot, discard, and exile. This deck runs hard ritual counts and a very high 4-cmc ramp since those cards are the most impactful - note the use of Z. Void in the land count. This deck is terrific at locating and deploying threats at a high expense of card economy. That can be excellent against unfair decks, but terrible against counterspell or fair decks since they will punish you for being light on threats. Nonetheless, this might be the most fun Pyro Prison deck to pilot.
Find and deploy the right tool for the job as fast as possible, and recycle the redundant/unneeded cards into win conditions. Whereas 8-Rabble plows ahead on a linear line of a swelling horde - often shifting a resource burst into a power lock along the way - Trash Dragons runs a very threat-light build, but explodes faster and digs deeper.
When I saw Karn - Toolbox, pardon me: 'Wishbox'. I saw a greater advantage to the concept of Hot Air. The real disadvantage with Trash Dragons is when you draw too many 'turbo arrows' on the racetrack, but not enough meaningful spells. This refers to Hot Air: Rituals and Looting Spells. But, with Karn, I can always have the perfect sideboard card for the next turn (and, if he doesn't die, another turn as well). Like Chandra, he is an adaptable X-for-1.
Well, did the theorizing prove successful? It did. Not 15-0 successful, and it's still evolving. So, let's take a look:
The Great London Mulligan Caper ends tomorrow on MTGO
That is good news for Karn-Pyro Prison decks, so let's read all about it! Headline: Combo decks benefited in the era of the London mulligan, and Karn, the great creator / mycosynth Lattice is a painfully slow Combo.
Thus far, we have seen this combo as an overlay on an 8-Rabble construction. I wonder. Were the mechanics of 8-Rabble (Goblin Gun) ever designed for Planeswalker-6-cmc deployment? Consider Pascal Classen's list of 8-Rabble, and his novel changes: Dismembers/Abrades and No Sweepers.
Dismembers go Under He went faster. Leaner. More punishing. Attrition Style.
Karn? He goes Over. Slower. Win conditions come AFTER the locked board.
Rabbles are NOT a lock. They are an upward trending attack that reaches critical mass unto themselves. At no point, do you slow the attack, and then say "Time to drop a 4-drop Planeswalker that does ZERO game-state impact, so that next turn I can deliver a completely off-axis win condition." Nevertheless, I follow Caligula's logic: press with the Rabbles. Either they get the job done, OR you're opponent is spent trying to repel their swarm AND you switch to a tactic they're not expecting.
My concern is that the approaches aren't complementary. Although, I do recognize the 'toolbox wishing' advantage.
So, I have been trying a NEW APPROACH: Trash Dragon-esque
Filter/Loot
Mana Acceleration
4 Rabblemasters only and 0 Eidolons
Top Heavy CMC Mana Ramp
I got a 4-1 last league and am 2-0 right now. I'll wait for tomorrow, before jumping in the ring again. I'm not getting Neoform out by a counterfeit strategy. That deck dies at Midnight tonight. Busy with work today/tonight, but will put up the decklist soon.
Early testing for Mycosynth Lattice / Karn has been positive. The winning numbers aren't there which is discouraging, but I'm intuiting a better future.
The first iterations of the build showcase 8 rabbles. I am trying a thinned out, turbo build with lots of filter/loot to get to the power lock suite and the new hammer blow: karn-lattice. I'll refine a bit more and then share a decklist.
@slowgod - yeah, it's here. R/W Prison is not competitive, and Lattice-Karn doesn't give an extra dimension. It's just more of the same. So, I wouldn't chase that dragon. I don't know the Tron decks all that well (as a pilot), but I will say that Karn shreds 'em up (as an opponent).
@eriksfynn: red decks are totally hosed by London Mulligan. First, they themselves can't benefit by a lowered hand count. They need card count to overwhelm. Second, they lose out by decks that can better search/mull for ideal hands. BUT, we are NOT a 'red' deck.
@Skia_AoP: Nice to see your face around the campfire again. Your analysis? Smile. Agree.
It's been about 3 weeks of solid testing and development of Rakdos Pyro Prison, and this list is where I have landed. I'm pretty firm on each card. And, yes, that includes the Obliterator. Aaaand, no, I'm not insane. (7) discard-loot outlets, and I have (20) black land mana sources.
To be brief, I endorse the deck. I think it is on the level with mono-red prison - maybe better, especially given the castable graveyard hate. So, give it a spin. I'm tossing my saddle on Karn for the next few weeks.
Mom! No Fair. Caligula took our new toy Karn, The Great Creator and already built a fully realized, premier deck with it!
Now we can't playtest and develop our own creations, cuz he already made the best version.
For those not in the know, Caligula is a 1st class Mountain Man - long time contributor to the thread, suggested at least a couple staple cards for our (75) [I think you championed Eidolon], and actually came up with the name Pyro Prison.
Not surprising, he now pioneers a card which could arguably be called his namesake: The Great Creator. The best way to respond is point-by-point. Sufficed to say, I have already traded for a Mycosynth Lattice and 3 Karns are pre-ordered. The deck proposed above is the real deal. I'm in. 100%
>>> Forward >>>
Here's the idea behind some of my choices:
9 Lock- moving a Chalice and a Bridge to the side feels like a great plan with Karn, allowing you to wish for a midgame Chalice on 2/3 to complete your lock, or in a pinch, just grabbing a Bridge and saving life by letting him die. I went a step further and dropped the 4th Bridge all together, and I haven't missed it. It feels like I'm running 5.
The new mechanic which drives this engine is Glittering Wish - Karn takes our (60) card deck and makes it a (75) card deck. This enables us to incorporate so many versions of our deck into a single construction. Pyro Prison has had a carousel of archetypes. One of which was the "Toolbox" deck. Silver bullet cards like Torpor Orb, Grafdigger's Cage, and Witchbane Orb were pushed into builds to enhance the concept of 'The Sideboard Deck'. But, never so gracefully.
Now, more than ever, Pyro Prison IS the Sideboard Deck. Outlier hose cards that can equal gg are a mere 4 colorless mana away. And, by splitting staple lock pieces between the sideboard and the maindeck, you've eliminated redundant draws. Impressive.
22 Land- With not only the addition of Karn, and the 6-drop combo piece he brings with him, but the addition of Blast Zone, adding another land hasn't hurt one bit, and has made everything nice and smooth. It also makes me more comfortable running a 7th 4-drop, which is Pia and Kiran, who is great with Karn.
22 land sounds perfectly fine, particularly with Blast Zone. 7 4-drops is taking our mana ramp to the limit. But, Karn searches load the hand up with cards that can be cast on following turns while we wait for land to be drawn.
8 Rabble, less Chandra- the idea is simple, clog the board with must-answer threats, or clear the way with removal long enough to find Karn. I haven't missed the 4th Chandra at all.
I've always advocated for the Chandra, Torch of Defiance count to be 3-and-a-half. 4 is too much and 3 is too little. The 8 rabble plan was just proven successful in Ghent with a Top 8 in a field of 400 competitors - enough said there. Question: In a deck loaded with 3 drops and (6) 4-cmc planeswalkers that immediately provide extra draw, do we want to dabble with more ritual effects? The drawback is dead draws of hot air, but the acceleration into establishing a locked board is tempting. IF the 'London Mulligan' becomes permanent, then the advantage is increased. The Londong Mulligan rule favors Combo decks, and let's face it, this deck is a Combo deck. A new breed: Combo-Prison deck.
Karn- In matchups where we take a control role, he takes over the game in just a few turns. It crushes troubling matchups like Hardened Scales and Tron, where I played Karn to shut off O. Stone game 2 and they played Thragtusk, which is usually trouble for us. In this case I was able to grab a Bridge and it won me a game I normally would've lost. There's no doubt in my mind, he's a staple. The question is, how many? 3 has felt good so far.
Finally! A way to defeat Hardened Scales. As for Tron, Karn provides a way to side out all of your bridges and go for the aggressive approach, buuuuuut still be able to [i]wish[/i] into a bridge stowed away in the sideboard if Wurmcoils start slamming the board. Very neat.
Blast Zone- jury is still out as a 2-of, but it's definitely a 1-of. Things I've killed with it: Search for Azcanta, Detention Sphere, double Death's Shadow, Auriok Champion, and a Teferi with 8 loyalty.. so it's not bad!
I am completely sold on Blast Zone. 100% Since I haven't played your deck yet, I can't comment on the count.
Here's a few things to think about as far as the sideboard;
Welding Jar vs Spellskite- while Skite is better in more matchups, you can wish for Jar and play it the same turn, which is big. I won a game vs Jund because of it. It also protects the Lattice combo.
The Jar is a better Wish target, but Spellskite is a better natural play. Skite comes in against a lot of decks, and provides blocking - needed when the Goblins get sided out against a swarm deck. I'm leaning towards Spellskite.
Batterskull- probably the weakest card. While it seems great, you really want it against control, and while I've wished for it a few times, it's lower impact than I hoped.. it might be better off being Hazoret or Stormbreath for the control matchup.
I've tried Batterskull, and your correct to identify it as the weakest card. With Karn, it's never really in your hand, but it is. So, go ahead and indulge with a pet card.
Relic/Crypt?- If you wish for an important 1-of and it gets destroyed, it could be useful to be able to exile your own graveyard.. in the case of Relic, it would give you infinite wish targets. I haven't tried It, but it could be useful.
Tormod's Crypt gets overwhelmed pretty readily. The Relic of Progenitus is a very novel idea (exile mechanic with Karn), and even poses an interesting conundrum: if you have 2 in your sideboard, how many do you bring in for games 2 and 3? Think of it. In your deck, the chances of drawing one is 1 out of 30, but if you leave one in your sideboard, then the odds of drawing one after you've cast one of your (3) Karns is something like 1 out of 12 || math not accounting for the 7 drawn cards to start the game.
SUMMARY
Well, if you can't tell, I'm excited. I've carefully reviewed your proposed build Caligula, and I think it's exceptional. And, yet I think it is also elementary. All the trademark stamps of Pyro Prison are on full display. It must have felt like a very natural process - the designing. The 'Core 50', as Fluffy and Russ like to call it, underpins the deck - although Karn shifts the counts of cards a bit between the MD and SB. And, the sideboard showcases our all-star silver bullets. Nevertheless, to your credit, the removal complement main deck (3 Abrade/2 Slag) and selection of sideboard tools are impressive. I don't think I'll change very much when I sit down, and take my turn to become 'The Great Creator'.
My one [i]wish[/i]? To have been there at the beginning. I know you've been exclaiming how overjoyed you've been with developing your new deck. If only I could have been there. To follow the path of decisions and contribute ideas. Sure, playing is fun, but the best part of Magic is creating. Well, let the tinkering begin!
For those doubters of Lavaclaw Reaches and Phyrexian Obliterator in a B/R Blood Moon deck, look and learn. This is a game 2 or 3 event where the Moons got sided out, and that left me with (20) black mana sources in the deck. Only the (3) mountains don't generate red, Thus Obliteration. And, Lavaclaw is a beast. I recently did 14 damage to a Tron deck during a few stalemate turns.
Round 1 - Infect [Mono-red PP has this as heavily favored. With B/R, I didn't think it would be as much, but collective brutality is a beast. The drop in effectiveness is welcome, since we want to push strengths to other matchups]
Round 3 - U/R Control with the exarch/kiki package [pretty easy matchup, as long as you can stay ahead of snapcaster/denial and cryptic command strings]
Round 4 - Colorless Eldrazi Stompy [popular in the London Mulligan field as it's much stronger now, but a damping matrix/bridge from us equals gg]
Round 5 - Grixis Death's Shadow [favored matchup again with B/R. Excellent example of how Master of Cruelties and Obliterator far outclass a rabblemaster - plus I bring in Pia and Kiran from the sideboard]
VERSION 2.0 UPDATES
The 1st thing that changed was the mulligan rule: London Mulligan. So, a couple Serum Powder got added and an already top-heavy CMC scheme got even fatter. The fact that Angrath, the flame-chained was ever considered in the first place! So, my thought was to powder up and use (6) 'loot' effect/spells to sculpt the hand throughout. Add a 2nd Master of Cruelties and a Phyrexian Obliterator.
Next, trade away all of the remaining bedevil for less mana intensive spells (yeah, yeah, I know I'm saying this in the sentence that followed Phyrexian Obliterator ) for a dreadbore. So, what we're seeing in B/R as opposed to Red: a significant thinning of the 3-cmc spells slot AND a total removal of (5) rituals. Sounds cool, right? Only if the new 2-cmc drops can impact the board AND the high-cmc spells can get cycled into early game resources if needed. What's the best example of this? Collective Brutality. It's the new Tormenting Voice, and it's way better.
Is B/R better than R? Well, imho, Rakdos Pyro Prison 2.0 is the best version of B/R Prison in this meta. AND, that is all thanks to the Mountainfolk. Look for yourself. Pyro Prison tech is stamped all over the winning decisions of Rakdos Pyro Prison.
DECK SPOTLIGHT BONUS
Feature Film Presentation
Witness the showdown: titan vs. titan with a celebrity moderator.
Ding Ding Ding --- Ding Ding Ding
Corner 1: Russ Colosi, Stickballruss, piloting the original Master Prisonwith minor alterations
Corner 2: Ray Karkman, Raystack, piloting Rakdos Pyro Prison Version 2.0as seen above
Today's Referee: Douglas Wolf, Fluffywolf
What about R/b experimental Pyro Prison? So, this all started with a Grand Prix LA undefeated Day 1 deck. The following is the exact list by the original author, JakesMTG, used by FluffyWolf in a competitive Modern league: 5-0 finish.
MY ANALYSIS
Comment #1: This is NOT a Pyro Prison deck. It's far closer to a Free Win Red deck. Reason: 5 Blood Moon effects main deck, lack of a creature-based kill accelerated win-cons, high number of planeswalkers, and no manlands.
Comment #2: It's a fine effort that achieved a lot of publicity and success. But, I don't think it's refined for a broad-based meta. I made significant improvements in the mana-base and sideboard. The main deck got (9) total card changes and the sideboard got (8) total card changes. But, some of the cards were simply moved from one stack to the other: Goblin Rabblemaster principally.
Calling upon a background in Mono-Red Prison and B/R Blitzkrieg disruption, let's look at where I took this list in Mid-March, First Draft:
That's (13) total card changes in the (75). Enough to brand it a new deck? Unique unto itself? Shrug. Sure, let's claim it in Version 1.0
MAIN DECK SPELLS
Where the hell are the rituals! Right? Lack of acceleration and 'air' has resulted in this balanced 'fair' build.
--- Rabblemaster. GDI! He is in. If there's one thing we have learned it is that we can not expect to win without creature pressure. We are not the 1-trick pony of 'free win red'.
--- Liliana and associated double-black spells at a high count. They are out. No way. The implementation of (9) swamps in the original list is totally unreconcilable. I'm down to (7) swamps and I've trimmed away half of the Liliana spells and a bedevil. There is too much reaction/removal in the jakesMTG Master Prison original build. We must present a clock. Consider: Jund/BG Rock have adaptable answer cards, but they achieve wins primarily with their creatures and manlands - NOT their planeswalkers and removal spells.
Let's take a lesson from them. We gain control with our Locks and attrition-based pressure. But, don't forget that, like Jund-B/G, creature counts and tricksy lands are a huge part of our formula grabbing a win.
LAND
I'm gaining a great deal of playtesting knowledge from my Blitzkrieg days - found in the experimental pages of mtgsalvation (55 pages - no slouch). This arrangement is far more streamlined and adaptive. Master Prison had too many swamps and not enough fetch & check lands to find the right colors. Also, Lavaclaw Reaches is an unsung champion.
SIDEBOARD
I borrowed a lot of Pyro Prison mechanics to replace some puzzling choices by the original author. In Master Prison, 2 Crumble to Dust in a deck with 4 Blood Moons and a Magus of the Moon seems kind of ridiculous. Especially with only 4 rituals. The rest of the changes hopefully speak for themselves.
>>> The initial write-up seen above, with some light editing, from Mid-March was largely on point. I think that my critiques of jakesMTG deck list are somewhat harsh in their wording. But, to be fair, it's very hard to 'correct' choices by a fellow magic player in a succinct, polite manner. I give all the credit in the world to Jake for what he made - inspiring. <<<
Obviously, I look forward to engaging in some strategic discussions about Rakdos Pyro Prison. For one, the Serum Powder is gone. Not surprising. Since London Mulligan in effect, I had to try a couple. 1.) Multiple Mull/Mana Rock allows me to boost the count of my high cmc spells. 2.) It also allows for multiple mulligans to find the right silver bullet in games 2/3. It's not a terrible fit, but the return from Powder is a bit too limiting -- too often it's just a rock. It takes up a slot in your hand, and you're pretty much never happy to see it. Begone!
Now, I recognize that this forum is traditionally a mono-red focused platform, and I don't want to steal the spotlight. To that end, consider this: Pascal Classen's Top 8 decklist from the April 10th in Ghent, Belgium - 393 combatants. Consider it? Damn well better celebrate it, kin! Titanic Achievement. He went heavy aggro (8 Rabblemaster) and backed up that overloaded 3-cmc slot with a pair of Dismember showcasing that life loss isn't that bad if it's on 1-cmc ramp.
The highest overall finish. Record Books: This is the most successful finish for a Pyro Prison deck ever.
The highest 1st place finish is me in a 72-person event, and there was also a fella that nailed a top spot in a 71-person event last year.
The highest Top 8 finish, previous to Pascal, was Russell Colosi a couple years ago. 300+ players and Russ did it two months in a row.
While I talk shop about B/R outlier variants in the coming posts, the focus really should be on the real Pyro Prison winner in Ghent. But, there's plenty of lava to spread around. Anybody else brewing up some sizzle?
Of course, there is always room for improvement, and maybe a shift into a different theme of KARN Pyro Prison. @Butterynugs - welcome back! - flexed in the direction of land destruction off of main-decked Liquimetal Coating and Molten Rain. Fascinating idea. And, @FraktheGods going well past the simple addition of silver and bringing in 2 other colors
I find the contributions of Marulo particularly engaging. Only your 3rd post in Salvation, and you have a very strong handle on Pyro Prison and how it has TWO primary conflicts integrating Karn into 8-Rabble:
1.) As I wrote earlier, the 'off-axis' shift of executing an 8-Rabble assault into a non-board state changing 4-cmc Planeswalker that ultimately wins with a 6-cmc artifact. Seems a tad askew. But, the design is effective: EITHER win with a swarm or exhaust your opponent's resources, and then win with a 'wished out' lock. Of course, there are times where an early-mid game explosive move into a timely traditional power lock against your opponent might be just enough to shut them down.
2.) Games 2 and 3: What do we sideboard in and what do we leave in the sideboard with hopes that it can be located with Karn later? This provides a new dimension to sideboarding, and it ain't easy. I guess the simplest way to think of it is that the needed early drops can come into the mainboard, like a 4th Chalice or Spellskite or Spyglass or a single Torpor Orb. But, what about when you are also considering taking out Karns?? Then, do you abandon the whole 'wishboard' and try to go traditional Pyro Prison?
PUZZLE: Humans. Whatever happened to our favored matchup against Humans? Friggen' detention dude is what happened. Alright, but whining aside, how do we Karn Sideboard/Wishboard against Humans? My problem has been that I end up with very limited win conditions against them, and I am ultimately attempting to do a Turn 1/2 Chalice/Moon double-slam for the win.
Now, he’s writing the book on it.
Rituals - Lands - 4-CMC Count....
Where once Pyro Prison was a 'Tale of 2 Decks' and the hope to not draw the Wrong Half was a real concern (Aggro/Control or maybe a total whiff on 'Hot Air' cards like Rituals only). Now?
Now, it's totally fractured due to Karn. I can not emphasize it enough: Dig/Loot/Scry. The win is only 1 drawn card away.
Easiest way to start with an 8-Card hand?
Zhalfirin Void
Look at this Opening Hand.
Would you Keep it?
Would you Keep it if the Z-Voids were Mountains?
Or Scavenging Grounds/Cavern of Souls/Blast Zone.....
No. The ONLY reason this hand is keepable is Z.
"When you wish upon a Karn...."
you usually win
That's certainly been the trend lately. Caligula did his 8-Rabble Karn list, and then joined MTGO for the first time. Despite some user/clerical errors in interfacing since he's brand new, he is slamming down 4-1s. I've got a few with varying versions, and Fluffy did a few minor tweaks and erupted into a 15-0 run on Competitive Modern MODO. Outstanding.
How can one even dare to tinker with a list that is seemingly already perfect? Well, right from the outset, I saw a different path. And, there was friggen' trash strewn all over it along with footprints from a....dragon. Couldn't be! Yup, 'Trash Dragons' fly again! Here's my list from 6 months ago:
Trash Dragons -- No Littering? Ain't nobody got time for that! This deck is pretty far from 'green'. Red is rummage, scry, loot, discard, and exile. This deck runs hard ritual counts and a very high 4-cmc ramp since those cards are the most impactful - note the use of Z. Void in the land count. This deck is terrific at locating and deploying threats at a high expense of card economy. That can be excellent against unfair decks, but terrible against counterspell or fair decks since they will punish you for being light on threats. Nonetheless, this might be the most fun Pyro Prison deck to pilot.
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
Creatures (6)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Avaricious Dragon
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (6)
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Sarkhan, Fireblood
Removal (3)
1 Abrade
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Pyretic Ritual
1 Faithless Looting
1 Collective Defiance
Lands (21)
15 Mountains
3 Gemstone Caverns
3 Zhalfirin Void
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Damping Matrix
2 Torpor Orb
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Abrade
1 Spellskite
1 Hazoret the Fervent
So, what's the big idea? Streamlining.
- Filter/Loot
- Mana Acceleration
- 4 Rabblemasters only
- Top Heavy CMC Mana Ramp
Find and deploy the right tool for the job as fast as possible, and recycle the redundant/unneeded cards into win conditions. Whereas 8-Rabble plows ahead on a linear line of a swelling horde - often shifting a resource burst into a power lock along the way - Trash Dragons runs a very threat-light build, but explodes faster and digs deeper.When I saw Karn - Toolbox, pardon me: 'Wishbox'. I saw a greater advantage to the concept of Hot Air. The real disadvantage with Trash Dragons is when you draw too many 'turbo arrows' on the racetrack, but not enough meaningful spells. This refers to Hot Air: Rituals and Looting Spells. But, with Karn, I can always have the perfect sideboard card for the next turn (and, if he doesn't die, another turn as well). Like Chandra, he is an adaptable X-for-1.
Well, did the theorizing prove successful? It did. Not 15-0 successful, and it's still evolving. So, let's take a look:
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Karn, the Great Creator
POWER LOCK SUITE (10)
4 Blood Moon
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
CREATURES (7)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Legion Warboss
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
UTILITY (4)
2 Slagstorm
1 Collective Defiance
1 Abrade
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Pyretic Ritual
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Faithless Looting
LANDS (21)
13 Mountain
2 Ramunap Ruins
3 Gemstone Caverns
2 Zhalfirin Void
1 Blast Zone
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Walking Ballista
1 Welding Jar
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Torpor Orb
1 Spellskite
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Magus of the Moon
Great name.
Hah - When Ponza works, it's soooo oppressive.
That is good news for Karn-Pyro Prison decks, so let's read all about it! Headline: Combo decks benefited in the era of the London mulligan, and Karn, the great creator / mycosynth Lattice is a painfully slow Combo.
Thus far, we have seen this combo as an overlay on an 8-Rabble construction. I wonder. Were the mechanics of 8-Rabble (Goblin Gun) ever designed for Planeswalker-6-cmc deployment? Consider Pascal Classen's list of 8-Rabble, and his novel changes: Dismembers/Abrades and No Sweepers.
Dismembers go Under He went faster. Leaner. More punishing. Attrition Style.
Karn? He goes Over. Slower. Win conditions come AFTER the locked board.
Rabbles are NOT a lock. They are an upward trending attack that reaches critical mass unto themselves. At no point, do you slow the attack, and then say "Time to drop a 4-drop Planeswalker that does ZERO game-state impact, so that next turn I can deliver a completely off-axis win condition." Nevertheless, I follow Caligula's logic: press with the Rabbles. Either they get the job done, OR you're opponent is spent trying to repel their swarm AND you switch to a tactic they're not expecting.
My concern is that the approaches aren't complementary. Although, I do recognize the 'toolbox wishing' advantage.
So, I have been trying a NEW APPROACH: Trash Dragon-esque
- Filter/Loot
- Mana Acceleration
- 4 Rabblemasters only and 0 Eidolons
- Top Heavy CMC Mana Ramp
I got a 4-1 last league and am 2-0 right now. I'll wait for tomorrow, before jumping in the ring again. I'm not getting Neoform out by a counterfeit strategy. That deck dies at Midnight tonight. Busy with work today/tonight, but will put up the decklist soon.The first iterations of the build showcase 8 rabbles. I am trying a thinned out, turbo build with lots of filter/loot to get to the power lock suite and the new hammer blow: karn-lattice. I'll refine a bit more and then share a decklist.
@slowgod - yeah, it's here. R/W Prison is not competitive, and Lattice-Karn doesn't give an extra dimension. It's just more of the same. So, I wouldn't chase that dragon. I don't know the Tron decks all that well (as a pilot), but I will say that Karn shreds 'em up (as an opponent).
@eriksfynn: red decks are totally hosed by London Mulligan. First, they themselves can't benefit by a lowered hand count. They need card count to overwhelm. Second, they lose out by decks that can better search/mull for ideal hands. BUT, we are NOT a 'red' deck.
@Skia_AoP: Nice to see your face around the campfire again. Your analysis? Smile. Agree.
3-1 (as always, 'should'a been a 4-0 though, dude')
Mill - win
U/W Teferi|Jace - win
Affinity - win
B/W Eldrazi - loss (1-2)
It's been about 3 weeks of solid testing and development of Rakdos Pyro Prison, and this list is where I have landed. I'm pretty firm on each card. And, yes, that includes the Obliterator. Aaaand, no, I'm not insane.
To be brief, I endorse the deck. I think it is on the level with mono-red prison - maybe better, especially given the castable graveyard hate. So, give it a spin. I'm tossing my saddle on Karn for the next few weeks.
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
Creatures (7)
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Master of Cruelties
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Liliana of the Veil
Removal (9)
4 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Dreadbore
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Lands (23)
7 Swamp
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Graven Cairns
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damping Matrix
1 Torpor Orb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Damping Sphere
1 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Spellskite
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Slaughter Games
Now we can't playtest and develop our own creations, cuz he already made the best version.
For those not in the know, Caligula is a 1st class Mountain Man - long time contributor to the thread, suggested at least a couple staple cards for our (75) [I think you championed Eidolon], and actually came up with the name Pyro Prison.
Not surprising, he now pioneers a card which could arguably be called his namesake: The Great Creator. The best way to respond is point-by-point. Sufficed to say, I have already traded for a Mycosynth Lattice and 3 Karns are pre-ordered. The deck proposed above is the real deal. I'm in. 100%
>>> Forward >>>
Here's the idea behind some of my choices:
9 Lock- moving a Chalice and a Bridge to the side feels like a great plan with Karn, allowing you to wish for a midgame Chalice on 2/3 to complete your lock, or in a pinch, just grabbing a Bridge and saving life by letting him die. I went a step further and dropped the 4th Bridge all together, and I haven't missed it. It feels like I'm running 5.
The new mechanic which drives this engine is Glittering Wish - Karn takes our (60) card deck and makes it a (75) card deck. This enables us to incorporate so many versions of our deck into a single construction. Pyro Prison has had a carousel of archetypes. One of which was the "Toolbox" deck. Silver bullet cards like Torpor Orb, Grafdigger's Cage, and Witchbane Orb were pushed into builds to enhance the concept of 'The Sideboard Deck'. But, never so gracefully.
Now, more than ever, Pyro Prison IS the Sideboard Deck. Outlier hose cards that can equal gg are a mere 4 colorless mana away. And, by splitting staple lock pieces between the sideboard and the maindeck, you've eliminated redundant draws. Impressive.
22 Land- With not only the addition of Karn, and the 6-drop combo piece he brings with him, but the addition of Blast Zone, adding another land hasn't hurt one bit, and has made everything nice and smooth. It also makes me more comfortable running a 7th 4-drop, which is Pia and Kiran, who is great with Karn.
22 land sounds perfectly fine, particularly with Blast Zone. 7 4-drops is taking our mana ramp to the limit. But, Karn searches load the hand up with cards that can be cast on following turns while we wait for land to be drawn.
8 Rabble, less Chandra- the idea is simple, clog the board with must-answer threats, or clear the way with removal long enough to find Karn. I haven't missed the 4th Chandra at all.
I've always advocated for the Chandra, Torch of Defiance count to be 3-and-a-half. 4 is too much and 3 is too little. The 8 rabble plan was just proven successful in Ghent with a Top 8 in a field of 400 competitors - enough said there. Question: In a deck loaded with 3 drops and (6) 4-cmc planeswalkers that immediately provide extra draw, do we want to dabble with more ritual effects? The drawback is dead draws of hot air, but the acceleration into establishing a locked board is tempting. IF the 'London Mulligan' becomes permanent, then the advantage is increased. The Londong Mulligan rule favors Combo decks, and let's face it, this deck is a Combo deck. A new breed: Combo-Prison deck.
Karn- In matchups where we take a control role, he takes over the game in just a few turns. It crushes troubling matchups like Hardened Scales and Tron, where I played Karn to shut off O. Stone game 2 and they played Thragtusk, which is usually trouble for us. In this case I was able to grab a Bridge and it won me a game I normally would've lost. There's no doubt in my mind, he's a staple. The question is, how many? 3 has felt good so far.
Finally! A way to defeat Hardened Scales. As for Tron, Karn provides a way to side out all of your bridges and go for the aggressive approach, buuuuuut still be able to [i]wish[/i] into a bridge stowed away in the sideboard if Wurmcoils start slamming the board. Very neat.
Blast Zone- jury is still out as a 2-of, but it's definitely a 1-of. Things I've killed with it: Search for Azcanta, Detention Sphere, double Death's Shadow, Auriok Champion, and a Teferi with 8 loyalty.. so it's not bad!
I am completely sold on Blast Zone. 100% Since I haven't played your deck yet, I can't comment on the count.
Here's a few things to think about as far as the sideboard;
Welding Jar vs Spellskite- while Skite is better in more matchups, you can wish for Jar and play it the same turn, which is big. I won a game vs Jund because of it. It also protects the Lattice combo.
The Jar is a better Wish target, but Spellskite is a better natural play. Skite comes in against a lot of decks, and provides blocking - needed when the Goblins get sided out against a swarm deck. I'm leaning towards Spellskite.
Batterskull- probably the weakest card. While it seems great, you really want it against control, and while I've wished for it a few times, it's lower impact than I hoped.. it might be better off being Hazoret or Stormbreath for the control matchup.
I've tried Batterskull, and your correct to identify it as the weakest card. With Karn, it's never really in your hand, but it is.
Relic/Crypt?- If you wish for an important 1-of and it gets destroyed, it could be useful to be able to exile your own graveyard.. in the case of Relic, it would give you infinite wish targets. I haven't tried It, but it could be useful.
Tormod's Crypt gets overwhelmed pretty readily. The Relic of Progenitus is a very novel idea (exile mechanic with Karn), and even poses an interesting conundrum: if you have 2 in your sideboard, how many do you bring in for games 2 and 3? Think of it. In your deck, the chances of drawing one is 1 out of 30, but if you leave one in your sideboard, then the odds of drawing one after you've cast one of your (3) Karns is something like 1 out of 12 || math not accounting for the 7 drawn cards to start the game.
SUMMARY
Well, if you can't tell, I'm excited. I've carefully reviewed your proposed build Caligula, and I think it's exceptional. And, yet I think it is also elementary. All the trademark stamps of Pyro Prison are on full display. It must have felt like a very natural process - the designing. The 'Core 50', as Fluffy and Russ like to call it, underpins the deck - although Karn shifts the counts of cards a bit between the MD and SB. And, the sideboard showcases our all-star silver bullets. Nevertheless, to your credit, the removal complement main deck (3 Abrade/2 Slag) and selection of sideboard tools are impressive. I don't think I'll change very much when I sit down, and take my turn to become 'The Great Creator'.
My one [i]wish[/i]? To have been there at the beginning. I know you've been exclaiming how overjoyed you've been with developing your new deck. If only I could have been there. To follow the path of decisions and contribute ideas. Sure, playing is fun, but the best part of Magic is creating. Well, let the tinkering begin!
Round 2 - Mirror (of sorts) | feature film linked above
Round 3 - U/R Control with the exarch/kiki package [pretty easy matchup, as long as you can stay ahead of snapcaster/denial and cryptic command strings]
Round 4 - Colorless Eldrazi Stompy [popular in the London Mulligan field as it's much stronger now, but a damping matrix/bridge from us equals gg]
Round 5 - Grixis Death's Shadow [favored matchup again with B/R. Excellent example of how Master of Cruelties and Obliterator far outclass a rabblemaster - plus I bring in Pia and Kiran from the sideboard]
April 18th || Raystack || 5-0 List
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
Creatures (7)
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Master of Cruelties
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Liliana of the Veil
Removal (7)
3 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Dreadbore
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Serum Powder
Lands (23)
7 Swamp
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Graven Cairns
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Damping Matrix
1 Torpor Orb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Slaughter Games
VERSION 2.0 UPDATES
The 1st thing that changed was the mulligan rule: London Mulligan. So, a couple Serum Powder got added and an already top-heavy CMC scheme got even fatter. The fact that Angrath, the flame-chained was ever considered in the first place! So, my thought was to powder up and use (6) 'loot' effect/spells to sculpt the hand throughout. Add a 2nd Master of Cruelties and a Phyrexian Obliterator.
Next, trade away all of the remaining bedevil for less mana intensive spells (yeah, yeah, I know I'm saying this in the sentence that followed Phyrexian Obliterator
Is B/R better than R? Well, imho, Rakdos Pyro Prison 2.0 is the best version of B/R Prison in this meta. AND, that is all thanks to the Mountainfolk. Look for yourself. Pyro Prison tech is stamped all over the winning decisions of Rakdos Pyro Prison.
Feature Film Presentation
Witness the showdown: titan vs. titan with a celebrity moderator.
Ding Ding Ding --- Ding Ding Ding
Corner 1: Russ Colosi, Stickballruss, piloting the original Master Prison with minor alterations
Corner 2: Ray Karkman, Raystack, piloting Rakdos Pyro Prison Version 2.0 as seen above
Today's Referee: Douglas Wolf, Fluffywolf
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/412643117
Start the Tape at 47minutes and 47seconds, and enjoy 3 rounds of action with a very active commentary stream on TwitchTV.
What about R/b experimental Pyro Prison? So, this all started with a Grand Prix LA undefeated Day 1 deck. The following is the exact list by the original author, JakesMTG, used by FluffyWolf in a competitive Modern league: 5-0 finish.
https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/VlKpaM_pH
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Master of Cruelties
4 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Abrade
3 Bedevil
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
3 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Graven Cairns
3 Mountain
9 Swamp
1 Temple of Malice
60 Cards
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Crumble to Dust
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
2 Stormbreath Dragon
MY ANALYSIS
Comment #1: This is NOT a Pyro Prison deck. It's far closer to a Free Win Red deck. Reason: 5 Blood Moon effects main deck, lack of a creature-based kill accelerated win-cons, high number of planeswalkers, and no manlands.
Comment #2: It's a fine effort that achieved a lot of publicity and success. But, I don't think it's refined for a broad-based meta. I made significant improvements in the mana-base and sideboard. The main deck got (9) total card changes and the sideboard got (8) total card changes. But, some of the cards were simply moved from one stack to the other: Goblin Rabblemaster principally.
Calling upon a background in Mono-Red Prison and B/R Blitzkrieg disruption, let's look at where I took this list in Mid-March, First Draft:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
Creatures (5)
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Master of Cruelties
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (6)
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Angrath, the Flame-Cursed
Removal (10)
4 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Bedevil
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Lands (23)
7 Swamp
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Graven Cairns
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damping Matrix
2 Torpor Orb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
That's (13) total card changes in the (75). Enough to brand it a new deck? Unique unto itself? Shrug. Sure, let's claim it in Version 1.0
MAIN DECK SPELLS
Where the hell are the rituals! Right? Lack of acceleration and 'air' has resulted in this balanced 'fair' build.
--- Rabblemaster. GDI! He is in. If there's one thing we have learned it is that we can not expect to win without creature pressure. We are not the 1-trick pony of 'free win red'.
--- Liliana and associated double-black spells at a high count. They are out. No way. The implementation of (9) swamps in the original list is totally unreconcilable. I'm down to (7) swamps and I've trimmed away half of the Liliana spells and a bedevil. There is too much reaction/removal in the jakesMTG Master Prison original build. We must present a clock. Consider: Jund/BG Rock have adaptable answer cards, but they achieve wins primarily with their creatures and manlands - NOT their planeswalkers and removal spells.
Let's take a lesson from them. We gain control with our Locks and attrition-based pressure. But, don't forget that, like Jund-B/G, creature counts and tricksy lands are a huge part of our formula grabbing a win.
LAND
I'm gaining a great deal of playtesting knowledge from my Blitzkrieg days - found in the experimental pages of mtgsalvation (55 pages - no slouch). This arrangement is far more streamlined and adaptive. Master Prison had too many swamps and not enough fetch & check lands to find the right colors. Also, Lavaclaw Reaches is an unsung champion.
SIDEBOARD
I borrowed a lot of Pyro Prison mechanics to replace some puzzling choices by the original author. In Master Prison, 2 Crumble to Dust in a deck with 4 Blood Moons and a Magus of the Moon seems kind of ridiculous. Especially with only 4 rituals. The rest of the changes hopefully speak for themselves.
>>> The initial write-up seen above, with some light editing, from Mid-March was largely on point. I think that my critiques of jakesMTG deck list are somewhat harsh in their wording. But, to be fair, it's very hard to 'correct' choices by a fellow magic player in a succinct, polite manner. I give all the credit in the world to Jake for what he made - inspiring. <<<
Rakdos (pyro) Prison 5-0
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1834435#paper
Obviously, I look forward to engaging in some strategic discussions about Rakdos Pyro Prison. For one, the Serum Powder is gone. Not surprising. Since London Mulligan in effect, I had to try a couple. 1.) Multiple Mull/Mana Rock allows me to boost the count of my high cmc spells. 2.) It also allows for multiple mulligans to find the right silver bullet in games 2/3. It's not a terrible fit, but the return from Powder is a bit too limiting -- too often it's just a rock. It takes up a slot in your hand, and you're pretty much never happy to see it. Begone!
Now, I recognize that this forum is traditionally a mono-red focused platform, and I don't want to steal the spotlight. To that end, consider this: Pascal Classen's Top 8 decklist from the April 10th in Ghent, Belgium - 393 combatants. Consider it? Damn well better celebrate it, kin! Titanic Achievement. He went heavy aggro (8 Rabblemaster) and backed up that overloaded 3-cmc slot with a pair of Dismember showcasing that life loss isn't that bad if it's on 1-cmc ramp.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21670&d=345570&f=MO
Trophy Case
- The highest overall finish. Record Books: This is the most successful finish for a Pyro Prison deck ever.
- The highest 1st place finish is me in a 72-person event, and there was also a fella that nailed a top spot in a 71-person event last year.
- The highest Top 8 finish, previous to Pascal, was Russell Colosi a couple years ago. 300+ players and Russ did it two months in a row.
While I talk shop about B/R outlier variants in the coming posts, the focus really should be on the real Pyro Prison winner in Ghent. But, there's plenty of lava to spread around. Anybody else brewing up some sizzle?