When you say easier, do you mean easier to execute? Lighting storm seems pretty lean too in terms of the number of pieces. Lightning storm is also not useless if you aren't going off.
I've tested Magma jet and so have a lot of others. I think the problem is doesn't kill a lot of important things. A lot of the times for me it reads "2/3 of a lava spike, scry 2" 1R.
I really like sarkhan with avaracious dragon conceptually and they both solve consistency issues. That being said, in most matchups, you get a soft lock and buy multiple turns to draw into chandra/rabble to win. Standard rabble has been pretty consistent for me, with the main issue being the importance of starting hands.
Hey! I also played Rabble at GP oakland. I went 7-2 Day 1 and made day 2! I won my first game and was 8-2, but had a really bad streak after and just missed cashing at 10-5.
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Legion Warboss
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Abrade
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pyretic Ritual
3 Gemstone Caverns
14 Mountain
1 Mutavault
4 Ramunap Ruins
Sideboard:
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Boil
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Spellskite
2 Torpor Orb
1 Trinisphere
I took extensive notes and was planning on writing it out somewhere if people were interested! I brought the deck to prey on U/R Phoenix, but while I did beat a few of them, I lost to the red variants. We have a bad matchup vs good KCI players. Triple ee and trawler loops breaks all of the locks. I would have skewed my board towards these.
There are 4 stinkweed imps in there already, so I don't think thats whats missing. Is it missing the SSGs? Without SSG, I dont even know how we are casting the neonate post infinite life.
for example: to cast neonate and then cast plunge, we need 2 red to start off, meaning we need 2 ssgs to start this loop. Also, with your entire deck in your hand after activating griselbrand a multiple of 7 times, when you cast looting, you will actually die to decking yourself (since you need to draw 2 and your entire deck is your hand)
Maybe one way to mitigate this would be to run 2 faerie macabre, discard them for free, then use 2 (for a total of 3 main deck) noxious revivals to put them into our deck, allowing us to cast faithless looting without dying, and continue the infinite life loop. Otherwise, this infinite mana loop doesnt work. That being said, 2 faerie macabre and 3 noxious revivals is a ton of wasted space main deck, and the goal is to make this deck leaner.
That list looks to be only 57 cards Searys. Also in regards to this comment
"Well about it i'm 99% sure that i can attain a 7 multiple with only the 2 phantasmagorians with any library/grave state, prove me wrong"
How do you get a multiple of 7 with a 48 card deck with 7 in hand? You can at most discard 7 cards to gorian (2, 2, 3) and at minimum 2. You cant discard 8 (since your hand is 7 cards) nor 1 (since gorian has to at least discard 2) which means you cant make it to 49 NOR 56.
Also in your current version, how do you get the red mana to cast the neonate after you have infinite life? You have no spirit guides.
I've been looking to build this since uma gave us some really good reprints. This new list looks like the pieces are more useful outside of the combo. I don't know if there is space somewhere, but could a single boseiju be useful somewhere?
The SB plan seems much better in your most recent list since you have ways to get a faster breach, while also having less dead cards to board! Looks good.
Therse a post here that gives our discord for 3 land belcher. I was trying to separate us from this group since we have such different strategies. Under the section "decklists and brewing" you will see some of the better lists. My list is currently running 2 bauble and a creature package for delirium. Magicus has a fairly standard list.
Sorry, I forgot to mention for the last manamorphose line, you need a ssg or cantor. Streetwraith is much better, which is why traverseing for it is so good.
Thanks for responding! I wasn't insulted or anything by him writing off the deck, I just think that he played a non intuitive deck as poorly as one might expect for his first run. Energy is entirely superfluous but it can help mislead people and waste their mental energy trying to predict what your deck does. There's no downside imo. In terms of switching manamorphose for pyretic, I think it matters very little but I think you lose a few percentage points. (by a few I mean like 1)
I have had more situations where you ritual on turn 2 off of 2 lands, but then need to morphose to get green to cast a recross as the tutor to the third land.
Not to mention, our deck bricks most often to not drawing a win con early enough, meaning that having a smaller deck (manamorphose and street wraith arguably make our deck 55 cards) makes this brick situation happen less often.
The third important situation is the turn 1 double ssg OR turn 1 SSG+ mountain starts. If you have manamorphose, these can often times be keepable as you get green for land tutors.
The 4th and final situation where manamorphose is better is when you hold it on purpose to get 8 card piles off of your recross. The line is as follows: untap, draw reforge. Your opponent counters reforge, you respond with manamorphose/streetwraith to draw your pact of negation to protect your reforge. Then resolve and pay for reforge for the win. This is also the line that allows you to win on the same turn that you cast natures claim and reforege the soul (because you get an 8 card pile as opposed to 7)
Saw you on the dredgemagorian thread, which is another deck I've been trying to work on! I don't play mtgo and I've only played locals. I had I think 5 3-0s in person, 1 1-2, and 2 2-1s.
I was watching hoogland play the deck and go 1-4 on mtgo, but he actually could have won a lot of the games. Game 1 he should have kept the first hand, and even though he mulliganned, he should have won the game if he didnt cast recross and lose the clash just to tutor a land he had a tutor for already. He lost another mid game that he should have won, And if his deck had a pact of negation (whoever sent him the list cut it) he would have won the game against Delver as well. All this being said, and also considering he never sideboarded, I think he shoulda went 3-2, which isnt great.
Our most common brick scenario is we don't draw a win con. Hyper Geometric Calculator lets us determine that we brick to this reason around 10 percent of the time. (Brick being defined as "we dont win on turn 4 minimum)
Yeah, except for the coco combo/adnauseum and I guess any elderazi titan/teferi deck, we do need to actually kill them, meaning that we should mainboard the wincon, but sb it out against specific matchups. (Although a well timed surgical on emra could SOMEETIMES win if they have more cards in deck than us during out first attempt to shuffle. It's at least a matchup specific sb approach to, like you said, make the combo more efficient post board vs some matchups.
What did you think about the infinite turns/ Geiers Sanctum approach? It cuts the win con (gut shot etc) slot and still wins the game. It also doesn't seem to fall victim to the problems listed by Kathal below:
"
Pro: Only needs 2 R to actually win the game (which is not a problem realistically)
Con: Relative clunky to execute since you cannot show a loop (like with Gutshot) but you have to execute it through, which might result into mistakes. Also needs a Lightning Axe MD
Regarding Lightning Storm:
Pro: Only one loop to set-up (ditch Phantasmo, set up the Infinite Life combo again and ditch Salvage to Lightning Storm for Infinite damage)
Con: Needs 4 Mana and thus with no land drops it might result into problems (noticed it a couple of times when goldfishing the deck) and needs a MD Lightning Axe
Regarding Gutshot:
Pro: You can set-up a loop to win AND stuff like Angel's Grace cannot do anything against it (since you abuse the Clean-up step for this)
Con: You need your endstep and the Griselbrand in there, which is a problem when you want to reanimate earlier to be able to attack. Also not doable with Footsteps, since Grisel dies at the EoT step.
"
Also Searys, on your last posted decklist you tried in tournament, I don't see any win cons.
So considering Searys was talking about the ability to make infinite mana through pyretic-noxious loops, you could also use infinite mana and convert it infinitely with manamorphose right? In an effort to make the combo a few slots leaner, is it possible that we could use nexus of fate instead of blight steel colossus? This would mean we dont need to run soul spikes or gutshots because we would just loop infinite turns and kill them with our geiers sanctum by milling them every turn while we ourselves cant mill.
On that same note, do we even need to kill them? Most decks except ad nauseum and coco cant beat infinite life and never milling. We can sb cards that actually kill them like gut shot in this matchups, as we already auto win and can pass turn forever.
Also, could reforge the soul lead to earlier kills? It can dump our dredgers whilst also giving us a ton of draws to dredge with to start set up the combo.
Does the transformative sb into grishoalbrand breach not beat gy hate?
Have you tested the creeping chill list before? I think its very interesting but I don't know how often it would play out as we described.
I really like sarkhan with avaracious dragon conceptually and they both solve consistency issues. That being said, in most matchups, you get a soft lock and buy multiple turns to draw into chandra/rabble to win. Standard rabble has been pretty consistent for me, with the main issue being the importance of starting hands.
Has anyone considered Orcish Librarian?
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Legion Warboss
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Abrade
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pyretic Ritual
3 Gemstone Caverns
14 Mountain
1 Mutavault
4 Ramunap Ruins
Sideboard:
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Boil
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Spellskite
2 Torpor Orb
1 Trinisphere
I took extensive notes and was planning on writing it out somewhere if people were interested! I brought the deck to prey on U/R Phoenix, but while I did beat a few of them, I lost to the red variants. We have a bad matchup vs good KCI players. Triple ee and trawler loops breaks all of the locks. I would have skewed my board towards these.
for example: to cast neonate and then cast plunge, we need 2 red to start off, meaning we need 2 ssgs to start this loop. Also, with your entire deck in your hand after activating griselbrand a multiple of 7 times, when you cast looting, you will actually die to decking yourself (since you need to draw 2 and your entire deck is your hand)
Maybe one way to mitigate this would be to run 2 faerie macabre, discard them for free, then use 2 (for a total of 3 main deck) noxious revivals to put them into our deck, allowing us to cast faithless looting without dying, and continue the infinite life loop. Otherwise, this infinite mana loop doesnt work. That being said, 2 faerie macabre and 3 noxious revivals is a ton of wasted space main deck, and the goal is to make this deck leaner.
"Well about it i'm 99% sure that i can attain a 7 multiple with only the 2 phantasmagorians with any library/grave state, prove me wrong"
How do you get a multiple of 7 with a 48 card deck with 7 in hand? You can at most discard 7 cards to gorian (2, 2, 3) and at minimum 2. You cant discard 8 (since your hand is 7 cards) nor 1 (since gorian has to at least discard 2) which means you cant make it to 49 NOR 56.
Also in your current version, how do you get the red mana to cast the neonate after you have infinite life? You have no spirit guides.
The SB plan seems much better in your most recent list since you have ways to get a faster breach, while also having less dead cards to board! Looks good.
https://discord.gg/UVbBcde
Thanks for responding! I wasn't insulted or anything by him writing off the deck, I just think that he played a non intuitive deck as poorly as one might expect for his first run. Energy is entirely superfluous but it can help mislead people and waste their mental energy trying to predict what your deck does. There's no downside imo. In terms of switching manamorphose for pyretic, I think it matters very little but I think you lose a few percentage points. (by a few I mean like 1)
I have had more situations where you ritual on turn 2 off of 2 lands, but then need to morphose to get green to cast a recross as the tutor to the third land.
Not to mention, our deck bricks most often to not drawing a win con early enough, meaning that having a smaller deck (manamorphose and street wraith arguably make our deck 55 cards) makes this brick situation happen less often.
The third important situation is the turn 1 double ssg OR turn 1 SSG+ mountain starts. If you have manamorphose, these can often times be keepable as you get green for land tutors.
The 4th and final situation where manamorphose is better is when you hold it on purpose to get 8 card piles off of your recross. The line is as follows: untap, draw reforge. Your opponent counters reforge, you respond with manamorphose/streetwraith to draw your pact of negation to protect your reforge. Then resolve and pay for reforge for the win. This is also the line that allows you to win on the same turn that you cast natures claim and reforege the soul (because you get an 8 card pile as opposed to 7)
Saw you on the dredgemagorian thread, which is another deck I've been trying to work on! I don't play mtgo and I've only played locals. I had I think 5 3-0s in person, 1 1-2, and 2 2-1s.
I was watching hoogland play the deck and go 1-4 on mtgo, but he actually could have won a lot of the games. Game 1 he should have kept the first hand, and even though he mulliganned, he should have won the game if he didnt cast recross and lose the clash just to tutor a land he had a tutor for already. He lost another mid game that he should have won, And if his deck had a pact of negation (whoever sent him the list cut it) he would have won the game against Delver as well. All this being said, and also considering he never sideboarded, I think he shoulda went 3-2, which isnt great.
Our most common brick scenario is we don't draw a win con. Hyper Geometric Calculator lets us determine that we brick to this reason around 10 percent of the time. (Brick being defined as "we dont win on turn 4 minimum)
What did you think about the infinite turns/ Geiers Sanctum approach? It cuts the win con (gut shot etc) slot and still wins the game. It also doesn't seem to fall victim to the problems listed by Kathal below:
"
Pro: Only needs 2 R to actually win the game (which is not a problem realistically)
Con: Relative clunky to execute since you cannot show a loop (like with Gutshot) but you have to execute it through, which might result into mistakes. Also needs a Lightning Axe MD
Regarding Lightning Storm:
Pro: Only one loop to set-up (ditch Phantasmo, set up the Infinite Life combo again and ditch Salvage to Lightning Storm for Infinite damage)
Con: Needs 4 Mana and thus with no land drops it might result into problems (noticed it a couple of times when goldfishing the deck) and needs a MD Lightning Axe
Regarding Gutshot:
Pro: You can set-up a loop to win AND stuff like Angel's Grace cannot do anything against it (since you abuse the Clean-up step for this)
Con: You need your endstep and the Griselbrand in there, which is a problem when you want to reanimate earlier to be able to attack. Also not doable with Footsteps, since Grisel dies at the EoT step.
"
Also Searys, on your last posted decklist you tried in tournament, I don't see any win cons.
On that same note, do we even need to kill them? Most decks except ad nauseum and coco cant beat infinite life and never milling. We can sb cards that actually kill them like gut shot in this matchups, as we already auto win and can pass turn forever.
Also, could reforge the soul lead to earlier kills? It can dump our dredgers whilst also giving us a ton of draws to dredge with to start set up the combo.
Does the transformative sb into grishoalbrand breach not beat gy hate?