I think i have posted this before, in this or the older threat, about the stomping ground vs cinder glade debate. Again, I would like to reiterate "you will lose less life with cinder glade, but you will also lose more games as well". There will be hands where, because of cinder glade, you don't have an uptap green in the first 2 turns. There are only 11-12 untap green, with only 2 stomping ground, in most list. That's actually not a lot, so that 6-10% increase in percentage (i trust your math ) is very relevant in the long run. Another factor is that we are not a good mulligan deck, so it would feel awful to ship a perfectly playable hand due to no untap green until turn 3. These hands happens more than one thinks, glade glade Kut, or Glade Kut Kut. Again, we are min maxing here.
I don't disagree that sometimes those 2 life matters, but time walk yourself due to not able to play an untap green first 2 turns is also a death sentence against aggro too. Sometimes you just need to shock turn 1 to bolt or search in these match up. with glade, you can mountain bolt, t2 glade, but would not be able to play on curve. Now that we have move on to the Hour of promise version, it is even more important, as we would like to not fetch forest as much as possible.
These are my experience through thousands of games with the deck ever since modern is a format. cheers
I believe that my own experience is clouding my view, but I don't think I've ever had a hand where I had Cinder Glade, Cinder Glade, Valakut or Valakut, Valakut, Cinder Glade. Maybe there was a hand like that once or twice that I snap mulled if it didn't have any early relevant plays. Even replacing one of those lands with Stomping Ground doesn't do much against Aggro in my opinion. But I've probably been lucky enough not to have it happen. Ever since Cinder Glade was printed, I didn't play Valakut non stop and haven't played it at all since winning a PPTQ (also didn't play it other than at the PPTQs the last 3 weeks before winning one). I have been playing a lot of Humans and Knightfall recently, so maybe it's just that I've had oddly good luck with 4 Cinder Glade/2 Stomping Ground or I just haven't played much.
You know that results oriented players, like myself, can easily be swayed to believing certain things about certain decks or not trusting in the math aspect. I have won more than 90% of my matches with Humans, so currently I honestly think that it is near the level of GDS, Titanshift, E Tron, and Affinity. There's honestly a lot of factors involved, but I honestly feel like I could win a PPTQ with Humans. It feels that strong, even if today's testing vs. Jund had me at 50/50 only. I had some humility after today, lol.
Ya, the above G + G + V, or V + V + G is just one of the many scenarios. Suppose your hand is forest + Glade, and you have a bolt and turn 2 ramp. When facing aggro, it might save you more life to go turn 1 stomp and bolt vs the alternative line of t1 Glade, turn2 bolt, turn3 ramp, or t1 glade, t2 ramp, t3 bolt. In a format like modern, where the first 4 turns decides a lot of games, we just don't have the luxury to take any turns off, and mana efficiency is key
I think i have posted this before, in this or the older threat, about the stomping ground vs cinder glade debate. Again, I would like to reiterate "you will lose less life with cinder glade, but you will also lose more games as well". There will be hands where, because of cinder glade, you don't have an uptap green in the first 2 turns. There are only 11-12 untap green, with only 2 stomping ground, in most list. That's actually not a lot, so that 6-10% increase in percentage (i trust your math ) is very relevant in the long run. Another factor is that we are not a good mulligan deck, so it would feel awful to ship a perfectly playable hand due to no untap green until turn 3. These hands happens more than one thinks, glade glade Kut, or Glade Kut Kut. Again, we are min maxing here.
I don't disagree that sometimes those 2 life matters, but time walk yourself due to not able to play an untap green first 2 turns is also a death sentence against aggro too. Sometimes you just need to shock turn 1 to bolt or search in these match up. with glade, you can mountain bolt, t2 glade, but would not be able to play on curve. Now that we have move on to the Hour of promise version, it is even more important, as we would like to not fetch forest as much as possible.
These are my experience through thousands of games with the deck ever since modern is a format. cheers
2x anger of the gods
2x ancient grudge
2x engineer explosive
2x witchbane orb
2x grim lavamancer
1x obstinate baloth
1x thrugtusk
1x courser of kruphix
1x back to nature
1x Emrakul the promised end
My experience with baloth is basically what foodchaingoblins said. In modern, people just play what they wants, even if you don't think LoTV is prevalent in the current meta, at a GP level, you will face a very diverse field. In this GP, i have faced 4 LOTV deck, so perhaps i could be a little biased on Thrag vs baloth here. If i am grinding online league, with like 20% meta being DS, then it is possibly correct to switch to Thrag instead.
- So open field play baloth, inbred field with lot of DS play Thragtusk
- I replaced the 3rd forest with the cycle duel, and was presently surprised with the experience.
- KHE is good vs DS because u don't need to crack it when they ripe you hand apart. A lot of these games end up being dome them for 9 with a land drop
- the reason Lavamancer is good because it gives you more ways to interact with these deck at instant speed. Active lavamancer just take over games and bail you out against stuff like Aven mindscencor etc.
- i will reiterate this again. We will likely lose more life with stomping ground, but you will lose LESS games with it. Having multiple lands ETB tap is just disaster, especially when GR shift is not a good mulliganing deck. (We are a critical mass deck)
For what it is worth, these are just my experiences and feedback after thousands of matches with the archetype.
Finished 11-4 as well , lost to Grishoalbrand, Eldrazi (both game nut draw with double temple, curving TKS smasher smasher), Grixis DS (3-1 vs it in the tourney), and last round to 8rack.
Few closing thoughts on some of the card choices over the weekend:
- Relic was great, it should be a maindeck 3-4 of in the current meta
- my teammate (he went 12-3) and I both played a singleton primal commend, and it was great for us
- Thragtusk is a trap in sb, just play baloths
- EE was great
- have a real plan against blood moon, not just relying on 1 for 1 solution like rec sage. We both had a back to nature, and alternate whammies in sb (i had 13emmy, my teammated had a ugin)
- don't play hornet nest (we cut it entirely)
- Chandra is very medium (we have 0 in our 75 this weekend), doesn't kill most of DS's threats, and just dies to any go wide deck. She is a good card, and will have another time to shine in a different meta
- if you use expedition well, it is one of the most powerful card against DS
- Don't play a third forest
- Don't go less than 4 stomping
I have come to many of the exact same conclusions for the deck.
1) Relic - I maindeck 4. Worst-case, you cycle them game 1 (we often have 1 extra mana) and board them out. Or, you just win turn 1 against some decks.
2) Primal - I used to run it but ended up cutting it. A 5cc Sorcery will just get Stubborn Denial'd against DS. Against other decks, I'd rather have Pact. It's nice to have a maindeck out to Blood Moon or Leyline of Sanctity, but I rarely face those Online.
3) Thragtusk - Can you elaborate here? I have found Thragtusk AMAZING against DS. It's much worse against Burn, but that's why I run 3 maindeck Courser. Against something like 8-Rack, Baloth is better, but I have 4 Trackers post-board.
4) EE - I considered running it in the side, but it seems very slow. When do you want this over Anger? Do you splash to get X=3?
5) Blood Moon - I don't see any Blood Moons Online, but my plan is 4 Tireless Tracker (post-side), 4 Titan, 3 Courser, 1 Chandra. How was 13Emmy for you? You often get it reduced by 3 (land, sorcery, creature), max 5 (enchantment, instant). Best-case, it costs 8, which seems way too expensive for the effect.
6) Hornet Nest - I recently put them back into the sideboard but haven't had a chance to use them yet. They aren't amazing in some configurations of Titan Shift, but I like them in mine. Against Grixis DS, my post-board threats are:
2 Pact
3 Courser
2 Hornet Nest
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Titan
0 Scapeshift
I overload on creatures, so Hornet is very unlikely to be killed with non-damage removal.
7) Chandra - I board 1 against Eldrazi decks, but otherwise I agree that she's not great right now.
8) KHE is insane against DS, especially Grixis. If you get out a Valakut, you can really screw up their combat math and kill them out of nowhere.
9) 3rd Forest - 100% agree. I put in an 8th green fetchland instead of 3rd Forest. It helps with KHE and Tracker.
10) Stomping - I could see 4 Stomping, 3 Glade over 1 basic Mountain. Do you run 2 or 3 Glades? I love the ability to play untapped duals later in the game and save on life. I will often fetch for Stomping turns 1 or 3, and then Glades the rest of the game. With 3 Stomping, 2 Forest, 8 fetchlands, I have a good number of ways to get turn 1 green for Search. That's the main time it makes a difference.
- Thragtusk is a trap because it is worst against almost everything else. The games doesn't come down to their delve creature staring at your Thragtusk that often. Where as, the 4cc vs 5cc, and the discard clause is VERY relevant in all other match up.
- EE is good because it give you another instant speed ways to deal with EOT CoCo into combo. Also it gets around Burrenton Forge-tender, which did came up in on of my round. It also kill deathshadow straight up as well. With that said, this is a sb card
- There is a lot of ways to go about beating blood moon, my point is just don't try to bank on single target enchantment removal, as they can easily play a second one when the game drags out.
- Our mana base is 7 fetch, 7 mountain, 2 forest, 4 stomping, 2 cinder, 1cycle duel, 4 kut. Quite happy how it plays out
- primal was good as a one of, drawing two is clunky. I think we are in a more grindy format, which makes the speed of pact less important. It is not wrong to continue to go with 2 pacts, but the primal commend's utility has been great for both of us this week.
- lastly, Grim lavamancer has been very good from the sb, making short work of CoCo, hatebear decks, any small creature decks.
Finished 11-4 as well , lost to Grishoalbrand, Eldrazi (both game nut draw with double temple, curving TKS smasher smasher), Grixis DS (3-1 vs it in the tourney), and last round to 8rack.
Few closing thoughts on some of the card choices over the weekend:
- Relic was great, it should be a maindeck 3-4 of in the current meta
- my teammate (he went 12-3) and I both played a singleton primal commend, and it was great for us
- Thragtusk is a trap in sb, just play baloths
- EE was great
- have a real plan against blood moon, not just relying on 1 for 1 solution like rec sage. We both had a back to nature, and alternate whammies in sb (i had 13emmy, my teammated had a ugin)
- don't play hornet nest (we cut it entirely)
- Chandra is very medium (we have 0 in our 75 this weekend), doesn't kill most of DS's threats, and just dies to any go wide deck. She is a good card, and will have another time to shine in a different meta
- if you use expedition well, it is one of the most powerful card against DS
- Don't play a third forest
- Don't go less than 4 stomping
For chandra, it basically comes down to if you believe her 4 damage kills anything relevant in the meta. With a bunch of x/5 popping up in Grixis DS, or decks that just go wide, she is likely not the best MD card. She also does not do much against combo match up, where she is no better than a ramp spell. (you go from 2-4-7 mana vs 2-4-6 with ramp. However it doesn't increase your land count, which make it no good with scapeshift)
All in all, Chandra is a fine card, but likely a sb option for now, until the meta shifted IMO.
Not able to cast leyline is a big deal, and splashing for white makes your mana worst, as cinder glade would enter play tap more often. It is potentially more painful as well with all the extra shocks, and playing a basic plains is just the most awkward draw.
Speaking about cinder glade, I am certain the mix should be 4 stomping + 2 glade. You will lose WAY more games due to not having an untap green turn 1/2 than potentially 2 extra life lost in the long run.
my2cents
Mods - not sure if there is still one in this thread, but in the premier at the front, my first deck list is missing 4 stomping ground (likely typo with 4 anger of the god instead)
I played 58/60 same maindeck as you (ran a third explore and a baloth main over the 2 coursers you had), but the sideboard was where I saw some really interesting choices. My main questions were about your Witchbane Orbs and your Emrakul. How did the orbs perform? I assume they must have been pretty good vs. scapeshift mirrors, which there seemed to be a pretty decent number of. Is it also good against anything else like Burn, or is getting it out around turn 3-4 too late?
The Emrakul is pretty spicy, what matchups did you board it in generally? Do you think it was worth the slot?
I walked by the top tables a couple times while you were playing and saw a game you played against 2 blood moons, but you didn't seem to phased by it. With no enchantment removal in your list, were Blood Moons not something you expected to see? Or were you just confident in the beatdown plan vs those decks? Similarly did you run into leylines much, and how do you deal with those decks that play them?
Thanks for any insight on your deck you can give!
Firstly, thanks for the congratz!
The orbs were likely the best card i could find for the mirror, after trying out a bunch of different cards such as: acid-moss, reverberate, crumble, etc. The fact that it also has additional utility against burn is what sold me to it, as baloth is often not enough against skullcrack open mana. It is not an "end all be all" card in the mirror, but it does slows them down enough for you to execute your own plan. As to whether i will continue to ran them in the sb, that really depends on how the meta shifts moving forward. The orbs plan is a good option to have in our pocket.
My philosophy toward bloodmoon or leyline is that, playing single target enchantment removal is not a good idea. First, we need to draw one, and if they land multiple or has a counter for it, it doesn't really help. Sure, we could run back to nature , but it is so narrow that we cannot afford wasting sb slots in a wild open field like modern. We also don't have a lot of card draws, so finding that 1-2 copies could be challenging. Emrakul is just supplementing my beatdown plan against these cards, where i would usually sb out all my scapeshifts and summoning pact. As for alternate win con, I have tried, Emrakul, karn, Ugin, chandra, infernal titan, etc. They have all their pros and cons, and i just felt Emrakul has the most upside among them, with the matchups i am expecting the face that tournament.
Got wmcq this weekend, and looking to tune my sb. (or even overhaul it) The card that intrigued me is beast within. So far, we mostly use abrupt decay, EE, nature's claim, or even GB charm, and they all have their pros / cons. As for Beast within
Pro
hits everything (even land and PW, such as ugin, Enchantment such as worship, leylines)
Easier to cast, only require 1 G mana
Con
3 mana
give them a 3/3 (could be relevant when racing)
wanna check with the hivemind and see if anyone have tried it before? Was brainstorming about it, as it is an universal answer to everything
is because we are in a turn3 format, and this is a turn 4 deck. This doesn't go well especially when we are on the draw. They are trading consistency and the mid / long game, for a potential turn 3 kill. IF the format goes back to more GBx, blue decks, and midrange heavy, then RG scapeshift will become a better choice again
it is important to note that darkblast has the word "dredge" on it, as it is part of our core engine. I am a big supporter to make the deck as consistent as possible. It is very rare that we lose once we have our engine going (unless against other combo deck of course). The games that we do lose, are the one where we fail to dredge. Therefore, adding more cute card that doesn't help too much to our core game plan is, imho, adding more variance to the deck.
What do you think are the pro's of dredge against affinity?
Imo, dredge is like affinity. Able to steal game 1 70% of the time, but most likely to lose at game 2 because of hates. Affinity has access to 5 color, which will make the sideboard a bit better than us (talking about our Jund colors). Also, Graveyard hates like Graffdigger, Relic or Tormod's Crypt are colorless, therefore it can be found in any deck. Unlike affinity, Artifact hates can be only be found in certain colors (red,white,green). Since half of the modern format relies on graveyard, players will devote for more graveyard hate than artifact hate thus easier for us to be hated. Affinity is a always a bit faster than us (except if you're lucky enough to put 3-4 amalgam at 2nd turn). Both decks are dead if hated well (LotVoid & Kataki). What do you think are the advantages of dredge at game 2 where affinity doesn't have?
Affinity could potentially lose to fair draw likes removal -> snap -> removal or even like removal -> K. commend. Once dredge get going, no fair deck has much of a chance game 1. That's the biggest differences
Ya, the above G + G + V, or V + V + G is just one of the many scenarios. Suppose your hand is forest + Glade, and you have a bolt and turn 2 ramp. When facing aggro, it might save you more life to go turn 1 stomp and bolt vs the alternative line of t1 Glade, turn2 bolt, turn3 ramp, or t1 glade, t2 ramp, t3 bolt. In a format like modern, where the first 4 turns decides a lot of games, we just don't have the luxury to take any turns off, and mana efficiency is key
I don't disagree that sometimes those 2 life matters, but time walk yourself due to not able to play an untap green first 2 turns is also a death sentence against aggro too. Sometimes you just need to shock turn 1 to bolt or search in these match up. with glade, you can mountain bolt, t2 glade, but would not be able to play on curve. Now that we have move on to the Hour of promise version, it is even more important, as we would like to not fetch forest as much as possible.
These are my experience through thousands of games with the deck ever since modern is a format.
4x primeval titan
4x sakura tribe elder
4x scapeshift
1x summoner's pact
1x primal commend
4x search for tomorrow
2x farseek
2x explore
3x khali heart expedition
4x lightning bolt
4x relic of progenitus
4x stomping ground
4x valakut, the molten pinnacle
2x cinder glade
1x sheltered thicket
4x wooded foothills
3x windswept health
2x forest
7x mountain
Sideboard:
2x anger of the gods
2x ancient grudge
2x engineer explosive
2x witchbane orb
2x grim lavamancer
1x obstinate baloth
1x thrugtusk
1x courser of kruphix
1x back to nature
1x Emrakul the promised end
- So open field play baloth, inbred field with lot of DS play Thragtusk
- I replaced the 3rd forest with the cycle duel, and was presently surprised with the experience.
- KHE is good vs DS because u don't need to crack it when they ripe you hand apart. A lot of these games end up being dome them for 9 with a land drop
- the reason Lavamancer is good because it gives you more ways to interact with these deck at instant speed. Active lavamancer just take over games and bail you out against stuff like Aven mindscencor etc.
- i will reiterate this again. We will likely lose more life with stomping ground, but you will lose LESS games with it. Having multiple lands ETB tap is just disaster, especially when GR shift is not a good mulliganing deck. (We are a critical mass deck)
For what it is worth, these are just my experiences and feedback after thousands of matches with the archetype.
- Thragtusk is a trap because it is worst against almost everything else. The games doesn't come down to their delve creature staring at your Thragtusk that often. Where as, the 4cc vs 5cc, and the discard clause is VERY relevant in all other match up.
- EE is good because it give you another instant speed ways to deal with EOT CoCo into combo. Also it gets around Burrenton Forge-tender, which did came up in on of my round. It also kill deathshadow straight up as well. With that said, this is a sb card
- There is a lot of ways to go about beating blood moon, my point is just don't try to bank on single target enchantment removal, as they can easily play a second one when the game drags out.
- Our mana base is 7 fetch, 7 mountain, 2 forest, 4 stomping, 2 cinder, 1cycle duel, 4 kut. Quite happy how it plays out
- primal was good as a one of, drawing two is clunky. I think we are in a more grindy format, which makes the speed of pact less important. It is not wrong to continue to go with 2 pacts, but the primal commend's utility has been great for both of us this week.
- lastly, Grim lavamancer has been very good from the sb, making short work of CoCo, hatebear decks, any small creature decks.
Few closing thoughts on some of the card choices over the weekend:
- Relic was great, it should be a maindeck 3-4 of in the current meta
- my teammate (he went 12-3) and I both played a singleton primal commend, and it was great for us
- Thragtusk is a trap in sb, just play baloths
- EE was great
- have a real plan against blood moon, not just relying on 1 for 1 solution like rec sage. We both had a back to nature, and alternate whammies in sb (i had 13emmy, my teammated had a ugin)
- don't play hornet nest (we cut it entirely)
- Chandra is very medium (we have 0 in our 75 this weekend), doesn't kill most of DS's threats, and just dies to any go wide deck. She is a good card, and will have another time to shine in a different meta
- if you use expedition well, it is one of the most powerful card against DS
- Don't play a third forest
- Don't go less than 4 stomping
All in all, Chandra is a fine card, but likely a sb option for now, until the meta shifted IMO.
Speaking about cinder glade, I am certain the mix should be 4 stomping + 2 glade. You will lose WAY more games due to not having an untap green turn 1/2 than potentially 2 extra life lost in the long run.
my2cents
Mods - not sure if there is still one in this thread, but in the premier at the front, my first deck list is missing 4 stomping ground (likely typo with 4 anger of the god instead)
Firstly, thanks for the congratz!
The orbs were likely the best card i could find for the mirror, after trying out a bunch of different cards such as: acid-moss, reverberate, crumble, etc. The fact that it also has additional utility against burn is what sold me to it, as baloth is often not enough against skullcrack open mana. It is not an "end all be all" card in the mirror, but it does slows them down enough for you to execute your own plan. As to whether i will continue to ran them in the sb, that really depends on how the meta shifts moving forward. The orbs plan is a good option to have in our pocket.
My philosophy toward bloodmoon or leyline is that, playing single target enchantment removal is not a good idea. First, we need to draw one, and if they land multiple or has a counter for it, it doesn't really help. Sure, we could run back to nature , but it is so narrow that we cannot afford wasting sb slots in a wild open field like modern. We also don't have a lot of card draws, so finding that 1-2 copies could be challenging. Emrakul is just supplementing my beatdown plan against these cards, where i would usually sb out all my scapeshifts and summoning pact. As for alternate win con, I have tried, Emrakul, karn, Ugin, chandra, infernal titan, etc. They have all their pros and cons, and i just felt Emrakul has the most upside among them, with the matchups i am expecting the face that tournament.
Hope this helps!
Pro
hits everything (even land and PW, such as ugin, Enchantment such as worship, leylines)
Easier to cast, only require 1 G mana
Con
3 mana
give them a 3/3 (could be relevant when racing)
wanna check with the hivemind and see if anyone have tried it before? Was brainstorming about it, as it is an universal answer to everything
Affinity could potentially lose to fair draw likes removal -> snap -> removal or even like removal -> K. commend. Once dredge get going, no fair deck has much of a chance game 1. That's the biggest differences
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/459122#online