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Magic Market Index for Sept 22, 2017
 
The Limited Archetypes of Ixalan
 
Treasure Cruisin' with Monored Burn
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Quote from crexalbo »
    I had a huge response typed out, then the page's memory maxed out and I lost it all. I hate this website. No wonder I am mostly on Reddit these days.


    Yea, if I plan to write more than a sentence or two I do it in some form of note app first, then copy it in. Especially on mobile
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    The crane thing is a complicated matter. Like crucible they sit in my maybe board until the meta is right for it. If it swings back to being lots of burn, zoo, affinity, and low to the ground creature decks, I'll run cranes again. Atm, they're less relevant.
    I also agree that "people do things differently" is not an argument for doing or not doing something. Often times people are just wrong, and there is in fact a correct way of doing things. Discussions like this help work out what the correct way is. I've agreed and disagreed with crexalbo and that's varied topic to topic, but I do believe that "None of us can say anything is correct" is on the level of "lalala I can't hear you"
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Quote from kanister »
    XD I know what that card does and how to use it, I do all the things you mentioned. But do you actually keep Surgicals postboard against E-tron, Jund, UW Control, Death and Taxes? It's my first cut against all those decks when I sideboard.

    I keep it against e-tron and every kind of control. If you don't run them vs control I feel you're misplaying against control. Most use snaps and have little more than cryptic to win with. Taking cryptic with a surgical is reason enough to keep em.

    Here is my current list. Usual flex slots are baubles, tez, crucible, tutor. Sometimes obviously you take out all the discard, or all needles, or all surgicals, or jar vs decks that don't destroy, like uw or merfolk. But Jund, d&t, and aggro are the games I cut surgical. Affinity, burn, naya zoo etc.

    Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

    Spells:43
    2 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Mox Opal
    1 Welding Jar
    4 Ancient Stirrings
    4 Codex Shredder
    2 Ghoulcaller's Bell
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Lantern of Insight
    3 Pithing Needle
    2 Pyxis of Pandemonium
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Collective Brutality
    1 Infernal Tutor
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

    Lands:17
    2 Academy Ruins
    3 Blooming Marsh
    2 Ghost Quarter
    3 Glimmervoid
    2 Inventors' Fair
    1 Llanowar Wastes
    2 Spire of Industry
    1 Swamp
    1 Tendo Ice Bridge

    Sideboard:15
    1 Spellskite
    1 Magus of the Moat
    2 Welding Jar
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Ancient Grudge
    2 Seal of Primordium
    1 Ghirapur AEther Grid
    1 Lost Legacy
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Quote from kanister »
    Quote from 4554551n »
    I don't have time to go into this right now, though I will point out there is a reason extraction is run main board in lantern, rather than baught it for certain matchups. Sometimes we bring in extras, but it's a card good against almost every mu, or it wouldn't be main.


    If you don't have extraction main, you cannot ever win game one against things like Dredge and Storm. This si why I play it main. It has marginal value everywhere else, so it's justified to keep it maindeck.


    I believe you could get more out of your deck by learning how to use extraction in more situations.
    To count their outs. To strip their hand (even have them draw a main phase card and strip it during draw). To extract an irrelevant thing you milled to see their hand to help you choose a correct line of play. Taking card x out of the deck is just a part of it. In the context of a lantern deck, it's a lot more.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Quote from kanister »
    (they almost universally have 2-4 Relics of progenitus postboard, sometimes main, but let's ignore it for a moment)

    Leaving Surgical Extractions in instead of Mishra's Bauble is imo a straight-up mistake, even disregarding it being extremely weak to Relic. Surgical Extraction is just a bad card in general. It's a bad card except for specific spots and matchups where it's game-winning. I feel like many players have trouble realizing the opportunity cost of replacing a consistency tool with Extraction in a matchup where it isn't necessary. Extraction has almost zero relevancy unless you already found your Bridge and/or Lantern lock. Eldrazi tron gets beaten by Lantern lock and Bridge. Drawing Extraction when you try to take control rarely helps. Drawing Extraction once you softly locked them could be useful to further the lock, but you have a bunch of tools to do that already.

    Drawing Extraction is relevant against Valakut decks, Storm, Ad Nauseam (but it's not even that stellar here!), green Tron, Dredge. Valakut doesn't get stoped by Lantern lock or Bridge. Past in Flames can still beat you through lock. Ad Nauseam almost folds when you extract their namesake. Best way to beat Tron is to deny them mana. Dredge can beat you through Bridge with Conflagrate.

    These are problems that Surgical solves. These could be unsolvable if you ran no Extractions main. This is why there are maindeck Extractions in Lantern. You can get away with them because in "normal" matchups they still have barely enough utility to not be outright embarassing when you draw them, thanks to Lantern, mill rocks, discard spells, but anytime the game becomes close, or when your resorces get taxed, drawing Surgical is one of the easiest ways to lose the game because the card is just incredibly inconsistent in normal gameplay.

    Do yourself a favor, don't try to win by extracting Jund's Abrupt Decays or Etron's Karn.


    This sounds like this spoken by someone that doesn't know how extraction works or it's value.
    Zcowan makes good points above.
    I don't have time to go into this right now, though I will point out there is a reason extraction is run main board in lantern, rather than baught it for certain matchups. Sometimes we bring in extras, but it's a card good against almost every mu, or it wouldn't be main.
    You also missed its value against control decks, snap decks, and anything where cryptic is their only out.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    I still like surgical because they only have a handful of cards against you, and if you can aggressively mill or discard them your life becomes easier.
    As they don't have ways of interacting with their yard, aggressively blind milling them into a surgical has done wonders for me, especially if you know their hand and can pull something out of there too. Not arguing against leyline, I bring those in.
    Usually shave the baubles, tez, crucible, tutor, and brutalities for chalice hate and leylines.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    1-idk,idc. I've adopted a lot of wonderful ideas from the community as a whole here. I wouldn't decide to stay or go based on one person.
    2-Its not great. Needles and surgicals are king. If you're seeing it a lot in your meta up needle, surgical, and thoughtseize count. It's not the worst match up though. I wouldn't let it's presence discourage you.
    3-No. (It will exist in the same sense as kithkin tribal exists)
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Well now with a lot of new people here that weren't here a year ago I'll refloat an old idea.
    Tezzeret agent of bolas.
    He digs, he makes blockers, and more often than not he kills the turn after he lands.
    I hear the argument that he's unnecessary and we can win via regular mill, but in the real world draws are a thing.
    Yes there's all these things we can do, like call judges etc, this is just another thing we can do
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Quote from zcowan »
    Thank you everyone for the advice! Especially Spkilla! I proxied burn up and have been playing against it and I think adding a fourth leyline was infinitely better than having 2 sun droplets. I think I'm going to keep one just because it is such a good response to decks with small creatures that can occasionally sneak under the bridge. However I also like the multiple collective brutality in sideboard option since Gifts Storm is a big thing in my area and it is just so good with all options being cast.
    As for the blind milling conversation, if I can jump in. I've been playing the deck a lot lately and have to say that it is dangerous to blind mill too much unless you know the deck you are going up against from getting some information. Personally when I first started it felt like aggressively ripping cards from the top of their deck as soon as possible was the right thing but there are so many decks in the current metagame that thrive on that. Doing so turns on Delve for Grixis death shadow, allows for snap caster shenanigans, and pretty much hands Dredge and Living End style decks the win. I think it's just better to set up with early hand hate and pithing needles on current board threats until you can find a lantern.


    What information did spkilla give you that you found useful?

    As for naming fetches, depends on the deck. Burn? Sure, fire off a needle on an arid mesa. It's doing stuff all else.
    Junk? Heck no, you need to shut off lilly of veil. Arbitrary examples, but point is, you need to know what you need to needle in the deck.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    If its turn 2 3 and you don't know what they're playing you need to spend a little time learning the meta game. At the very least they'd have played lands, if that's not enough mill them once and it'll tell you, then you can make an informed decision.
    If you have a surgical in hand, you can always surgical in response to their surgical, take your card out of the bin, and fail to find the rest.
    Blind milling is a contested topic. Short answer is it depends on a lot of factors, and comes down to an experienced decision in the moment.
    If champ gets protection, disrepair immediately falls off.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    @zcowan
    I'd say cut one for leyline, and then it depends on what you're worried about. With 4 leylines and 2 skytes burn shouldn't be an issue for you, so what else are you struggling against?
    Alternatively, going up a jar could also work well, I'm actually mining one now with GDS packing main board k-com, and the inexplicable rise of junk with their abrupt and maelstrom in my local meta. I've never run disrepair because with skytes and leylines (then added fairs) I consider burn to be pretty good, but if you wana sure that up, then yea, it's an option.
    Another option is an extra brutality which helps there, but also control matches.

    The diminishing returns argument is very valid, just not in this case. It's why you'd only run 1 tutor, crucible, Ancient grudge etc.
    However with leylines how many you see is less relevant than when you see them. That's the key, if it's not opening hand, it's a dead card in 95% of the situations. If you get two opening hand, you've just played around a revelry. If you're worried about leyline in hand, then brutality may be the choice.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    For burn:
    First my opinion has always been that the correct number of leylines to run is 4 or 0. If it's not opening hand, it's not gonna help you u less you're up against rug tempo or something.
    Nature's claim and seal of primordium kill their eidolon, remember that and bring em em.
    Keep inquisition, side out thoughtseize.
    I personally think sun droplet is a waste of space, but if you insist on running it in multiples, run a pain land like llanowar wastes and ping yourself for 1 to gain 2. Rare, but it happens.
    They often only run 1 green source. If they're dumb enough to drop it before being ready to play the revelry, quickly quarter it, may just end the game there.
    Spellskite can protect leyline from revelry.
    Brutality is mvp, try use all 3 modes unless you really need the cards.

    If you do run 4 leyline, I'd mull to 6 to try to see one, any lower than that and you're just making it worse.
    If you don't see a leyline, use all your discard on burn to face spells, and hope to land a bridge to stabilise, then keep them off the face burn.
    On the play I prioritise turn 1 discard over a turn 1 lantern as they may just have the 1 creature, and taking it can buy you up to 3 turns in damage saved.
    Lock is less relevant than staying alive in the early game, keep a hand with discard and leylines, then try to land bridge and lock.
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    @thinkr
    Why ranumap over crucible?
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Fair points. I'll give this a try in the short term, old list updated for the new meta:
    Creatures:1
    1 Glint-Nest Crane

    Spells:42
    2 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Mox Opal
    1 Welding Jar
    4 Ancient Stirrings
    4 Codex Shredder
    2 Ghoulcaller's Bell
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Lantern of Insight
    3 Pithing Needle
    2 Pyxis of Pandemonium
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Collective Brutality
    1 Infernal Tutor
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

    Lands:17
    2 Academy Ruins
    4 Blooming Marsh
    2 Ghost Quarter
    3 Glimmervoid
    2 Inventors' Fair
    1 Swamp
    1 Llanowar Wastes
    1 Spire of Industry
    1 Tendo Ice Bridge

    Sideboard:15
    1 Spellskite
    1 Magus of the Moat
    2 Welding Jar
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Ancient Grudge
    2 Seal of Primordium
    1 Ghirapur AEther Grid
    1 Lost Legacy
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Hey all,

    I used to play this deck a lot and some may remember me. I switched to tokens when times got tough, but am looking to come back to my favourite deck. Couple quick questions for the regulars like thinkr to save me going through 30 pages:
    Why did people stop running bauble?
    Why did people stop running crane?
    Why did people stop running (or at least maining) skyte?
    Why is leyline main now?
    (I know all lists are different, and some still run these, but these are the big changes since I stopped, and I'm curious about the reasoning behind them)
    Posted in: Tier 2 (Modern)
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