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Treasure Cruisin' with Mayael the Anima
 
The Magic Market Index for July 21st, 2017
 
Theros: Elspeth's Tragedy
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    posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Quote from zcowan »
    Thank you everyone for the advice! Especially Spkilla! I proxied burn up and have been playing against it and I think adding a fourth leyline was infinitely better than having 2 sun droplets. I think I'm going to keep one just because it is such a good response to decks with small creatures that can occasionally sneak under the bridge. However I also like the multiple collective brutality in sideboard option since Gifts Storm is a big thing in my area and it is just so good with all options being cast.
    As for the blind milling conversation, if I can jump in. I've been playing the deck a lot lately and have to say that it is dangerous to blind mill too much unless you know the deck you are going up against from getting some information. Personally when I first started it felt like aggressively ripping cards from the top of their deck as soon as possible was the right thing but there are so many decks in the current metagame that thrive on that. Doing so turns on Delve for Grixis death shadow, allows for snap caster shenanigans, and pretty much hands Dredge and Living End style decks the win. I think it's just better to set up with early hand hate and pithing needles on current board threats until you can find a lantern.


    What information did spkilla give you that you found useful?

    As for naming fetches, depends on the deck. Burn? Sure, fire off a needle on an arid mesa. It's doing stuff all else.
    Junk? Heck no, you need to shut off lilly of veil. Arbitrary examples, but point is, you need to know what you need to needle in the deck.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    If its turn 2 3 and you don't know what they're playing you need to spend a little time learning the meta game. At the very least they'd have played lands, if that's not enough mill them once and it'll tell you, then you can make an informed decision.
    If you have a surgical in hand, you can always surgical in response to their surgical, take your card out of the bin, and fail to find the rest.
    Blind milling is a contested topic. Short answer is it depends on a lot of factors, and comes down to an experienced decision in the moment.
    If champ gets protection, disrepair immediately falls off.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    @zcowan
    I'd say cut one for leyline, and then it depends on what you're worried about. With 4 leylines and 2 skytes burn shouldn't be an issue for you, so what else are you struggling against?
    Alternatively, going up a jar could also work well, I'm actually mining one now with GDS packing main board k-com, and the inexplicable rise of junk with their abrupt and maelstrom in my local meta. I've never run disrepair because with skytes and leylines (then added fairs) I consider burn to be pretty good, but if you wana sure that up, then yea, it's an option.
    Another option is an extra brutality which helps there, but also control matches.

    The diminishing returns argument is very valid, just not in this case. It's why you'd only run 1 tutor, crucible, Ancient grudge etc.
    However with leylines how many you see is less relevant than when you see them. That's the key, if it's not opening hand, it's a dead card in 95% of the situations. If you get two opening hand, you've just played around a revelry. If you're worried about leyline in hand, then brutality may be the choice.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    For burn:
    First my opinion has always been that the correct number of leylines to run is 4 or 0. If it's not opening hand, it's not gonna help you u less you're up against rug tempo or something.
    Nature's claim and seal of primordium kill their eidolon, remember that and bring em em.
    Keep inquisition, side out thoughtseize.
    I personally think sun droplet is a waste of space, but if you insist on running it in multiples, run a pain land like llanowar wastes and ping yourself for 1 to gain 2. Rare, but it happens.
    They often only run 1 green source. If they're dumb enough to drop it before being ready to play the revelry, quickly quarter it, may just end the game there.
    Spellskite can protect leyline from revelry.
    Brutality is mvp, try use all 3 modes unless you really need the cards.

    If you do run 4 leyline, I'd mull to 6 to try to see one, any lower than that and you're just making it worse.
    If you don't see a leyline, use all your discard on burn to face spells, and hope to land a bridge to stabilise, then keep them off the face burn.
    On the play I prioritise turn 1 discard over a turn 1 lantern as they may just have the 1 creature, and taking it can buy you up to 3 turns in damage saved.
    Lock is less relevant than staying alive in the early game, keep a hand with discard and leylines, then try to land bridge and lock.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    @thinkr
    Why ranumap over crucible?
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Fair points. I'll give this a try in the short term, old list updated for the new meta:
    Creatures:1
    1 Glint-Nest Crane

    Spells:42
    2 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Mox Opal
    1 Welding Jar
    4 Ancient Stirrings
    4 Codex Shredder
    2 Ghoulcaller's Bell
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Lantern of Insight
    3 Pithing Needle
    2 Pyxis of Pandemonium
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Collective Brutality
    1 Infernal Tutor
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

    Lands:17
    2 Academy Ruins
    4 Blooming Marsh
    2 Ghost Quarter
    3 Glimmervoid
    2 Inventors' Fair
    1 Swamp
    1 Llanowar Wastes
    1 Spire of Industry
    1 Tendo Ice Bridge

    Sideboard:15
    1 Spellskite
    1 Magus of the Moat
    2 Welding Jar
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Ancient Grudge
    2 Seal of Primordium
    1 Ghirapur AEther Grid
    1 Lost Legacy
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Hey all,

    I used to play this deck a lot and some may remember me. I switched to tokens when times got tough, but am looking to come back to my favourite deck. Couple quick questions for the regulars like thinkr to save me going through 30 pages:
    Why did people stop running bauble?
    Why did people stop running crane?
    Why did people stop running (or at least maining) skyte?
    Why is leyline main now?
    (I know all lists are different, and some still run these, but these are the big changes since I stopped, and I'm curious about the reasoning behind them)
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on Protean Hulk - Now that it is unbanned, what are you going to do with it?
    Quote from LouCypher »
    Heads up; next time you make a post like that, try to keep it all in one post instead of making a triple post.

    Now, thing is; cards do not get banned because someone built a competitive deck with it. If this were true, Ad Nauseam, Hermit Druid and some other cards would've been banned a long time ago. Cards usually get banned based on how they do on the average table, the ones where games generally go on longer. Protean Hulk is considered there because it has potentional to be centralizing - people tutoring, cloning and reanimating Hulks constantly, drawing games around it. This I haven't seen yet since it's unban. Usually there's better stuff to grab. Infinite combo potentional doesn't really get considered, only 1-card-end-the-game things seem to be - and there are very few cards that actually end the game on their own without outside influence. In fact, the only unbanned card that can do this still requires you to have specific cards in your deck/hand (Tooth and Nail).

    As to your question about my early-game-win deck, I don't have a list online but it's a close approximation of this one:
    http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/food-chain-tazri/
    The author of that article does a much better explanation as I ever could provide, so I'll let it speak for itself. My version is a bit more budgetty (Mostly on the lands and there's a Day's Undoing instead of Timetwister) and it's still frightingly consistent.
    However, it's also not a deck I bring to most tables. It's one I have with me in case people want to see it, or if people want to go against the strongest I can bring.

    You're right. Things don't get banned because they mess with the competitive meta, but more when they centralise the casual. That was my very point in my previous post, and I think that mentality is bad, and they SHOULD be banned to allow for a comp meta to flourish, as per the points in that post.

    Sorry about multiple posts, on mobile.

    Yea, when you mentioned sucurge, I thought of Tazri, thing there is to go early you need a dork, a chain, and a scurge. And if that fails, or chain gets exiled, the whole deck becomes a pile of trash. This was the deck I was building before the unban.

    Quote from Lithl »
    Quote from 4554551n »
    Gonna nit pick a little here, because this is a very corner case situation regarding necromancy:
    Hulk dies at clean up. In clean up, no one receives priority unless they're responding to something. (unlike end step, where priority goes around to move to clean up).
    Incorrect. Nobody gets priority during Cleanup (CR 514.3), unless any state-based action or triggered ability occurs during the Cleanup step (CR 514.3a). If any SBA or trigger does occur, priority is passed as normal for any other step or phase, and an additional Cleanup step will occur. (And keep adding more until no SBAs or triggers occur.)

    The delayed trigger from Necromancy itself is sufficient to give everybody priority passes during the Cleanup step of the turn it was cast with flash, although the triggers from Hulk and Delver certainly don't hurt.

    I stand corrected.
    I missed the "once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession". Glad I said something or I'd have kept playing it wrong.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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    posted a message on Protean Hulk - Now that it is unbanned, what are you going to do with it?
    Quote from Lithl »
    Quote from DirkGently »
    So....ARE there any instantly-win-the-game combos with protean hulk? I'm sure there are some if you already have certain creatures on the board, but what about with no support?
    In just GB:

    Entomb Hulk
    Necromancy (w/flash) Hulk, sacrifice Hulk at Cleanup
    Tutor Phyrexian Delver and either Viscera Seer or Carrion Feeder
    Reanimate Hulk with Delver
    Sacrifice Hulk with Seer/Feeder
    Tutor Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Walking Ballista
    Ping everyone to death with Ballista/Mikaeus/sac outlet

    Total cost: 2BB, 2 cards in hand, instant speed, doing everything during someone's cleanup step.

    In BUG, Entomb/Reanimate in hand can be replaced with Flash and Hulk in hand, to do the whole thing for 1U. BUG can also replace Delver with Body Double.


    Gonna nit pick a little here, because this is a very corner case situation regarding necromancy:
    Hulk dies at clean up. In clean up, no one receives priority unless they're responding to something. (unlike end step, where priority goes around to move to clean up).
    So what really happens is:
    Hulk dies, trigger on stack.
    Get viscera/carrion+delver/double (return hulk if delver).
    Once everything is in play, unless there is something else in play that triggers of them coming in, which you can respond to to win, no one gets priority, turn ends.
    The next time anyone gets priority is the next players upkeep, where they get priority. You have to wait for it to pass to you, to sac hulk/double and finish the combo in their upkeep.
    #semantics. (but it's super relevant as they get to untap!)
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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    posted a message on Protean Hulk - Now that it is unbanned, what are you going to do with it?
    My plan for Protean Hulk is to let its presence in the format make my maindecked Torpor Orbs and Rest in Peace's savage even more opponents than they already have been. (Before anyone lights me up for it, I'm not saying that Protean Hulk isn't insanely powerful just because there are cards that exist which hose it.)


    Don't count on torpor to shut of hulk. It will in most cases, but sometimes you'll get a viscera seer+body double->mikeus walking balista.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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    posted a message on Protean Hulk - Now that it is unbanned, what are you going to do with it?
    Quote from LouCypher »
    I'm sorry but how does "I made a deck with insane tutor power just to get an infinite combo off easily we must ban this card" make any sense in this format where I can use various other cards to make for much harder to disrupt wins at the same kind of turn? You made a hypercompetitive Hulk deck, congrats. I've got a deck that wins on average 40% of its games on turn 3, and 90% on turn 5 or before. Should we ban Eternal Scourge?


    How?
    Is it also 2 card combo that requires 1 2 mana card to resolve, with additional methods of execution, and redundancy in case you fizzle? I'm curious.

    Quote from Weebo »
    Even beyond that, banlist decisions in this format have never been influenced by that kind of deck. There's no reason for that to start now.


    Ban decisions have been made for a variety of reasons. And my argument is "it doesn't break casual games" is a terrible one. This is because casual gamers are the ones that care less about ban lists. They make/modify their own all the time, or simply don't play against decks that are too strong or unfun in their opinion. Which is great, it's nice to tailor fun to your playgroup, so it works for them. If they want to play hulk when it was banned, they do.
    Competitive players however are the ones that stick to the strict ban lists and rules. Play with anyone, and do so to win, that's their brand of fun. And introducing such an easily executable turn 1/2/3 win interferes with their balance of games, more than it does with the casual crowds.
    TL;DR
    It was unbanned to help those who don't care, at the expense of those who do.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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    posted a message on Protean Hulk - Now that it is unbanned, what are you going to do with it?
    Turn 1/2/3 wins are now the norm. Like 1 out of 3 games now end on or before turn 4. This is not healthy. My BUG mimeoplasm deck just got changed up to capitalise on this, runs every tutor, first gets hulk, second gets flash.
    Alternatively some sort of entomb/res effects. Backup is ramp into tooth and nail (previously plan A). It's too good, simply too fast. Even though I'd love to see it stay in, as I just dropped a bunch of cash for the hulk package and extra tutors, for the health of the format, I think it needs to go. I have always been a fan of the "run answers noob" mentality, but having to have an answer opening hand, and hoping hulk player doesn't have a counter of their own, is a little much.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Quote from mindcandy »
    Quote from from="4554551n »


    Oh, no, no, no.
    I don't think you misplayed those games at all. You drew like a God, and played it out fine.
    I was referring to your feature match against eldrazi tron. (The game where you needled the endbringer over the dude you can stack with counters then remove for damage, with.. 3-4? Mill rocks in play at the time) not saying that's a mistake, though it seemed like an odd choice and I'd love to hear feedback on it. Feels like you had about 3 turns to draw a second needle or abrupt or die.
    In those games I saw some really weird mill choices. Like both empty hand, you have a tz on top, you double mill with shredders, then use your last bell (which presumably you would have used anyway since you don't want the tz). That's also the game where you both missed a codex mill.
    Please please tell me how those games went from your perspective.




    Haha! I dont remember that at all. I was so tired by that point. Ill try and write something up after work tonight but my memory may not be good enough to recall why i made those mills.

    This is going to soubd stupid but what is 'tz' that you're referring to?


    Yea, sorry by tz I did mean thoughtseize. I clearly remember both empty handed with it on your top deck, you not wanting it and milling it with bell, at the very end. Risking him having value on top and having to mill in your own turn. You had enough rocks that it shouldn't statistically matter, but still extra risk.

    I had noticed a pattern over a few games where you'd use bells after shredders, and am curious as to why. Normally you'd want to use symmetrical effects until you've got something you want on top, then clean up their top with codex. Or inversely if a few runners in a row are expected, or you're needing an answer (like in the game with end bringer and the other ping dude) , you're milling symmetrically first to get them to a dud, then digging yourself with shredder, or continuing to shred them to a dud. You've been doing the opposite by starting mills with the shredders, I'm very curious as to why. Looking forward to your write up.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Quote from mindcandy »
    Quote from 4554551n »
    I was watching his top 8 tron game.
    He was one lucky man. Like inq, tz, tz, lantern double rock in first 3 turns type thing.

    Lost legacy is really good vs tron and scapeshift, and you can bring it in vs control for cryptics/snaps, k commands etc.

    I'm in awe at how he won. I watched a lot of his games through the night. Things like drawing bridge last possible moment, milling with codex before bell, and

    Mill with codex, response draw, response mill with bell. Mill, draw, both players forget the codex mill.
    He is by no means a bad player, but this was very much a case of gods smiling on him. He had no business beating tron, but he did it again and again


    Thanks for dredging up that embarrassing moment mate. Yeah I got pretty lucky in that Tron match up. I was pretty much resolved to finishing my run in the quarterfinals when I realized I had drawn the Tron guy. I'm a little miffed though that you seem to reckon I misplayed that match besides the missed mill trigger.

    For those asking, both games I won were by establishing an early lantern soft lock and focusing on keeping him off threats rather than the lands. That's not what you always have to do but that's how it worked out in this match. TBH i should have lost game 3 but he misplayed by playing his worldbreaker too early which ave me the out of drawing into a bridge.

    Also Lost Legacy was pure theory for me before the weekend and a last minute addition. The main spec was that most matchups I would want to bring in a 3rd extraction against the legacy would be as good or better (except grixis, but i don't usually board the 3 extraction in anyhow). The Legacy though would also be a reasonable answer the the bane of my existence, ancient grudge.

    I didn't keep any notes besides my score pad but I will try and get a small report together of my run if anyone is interested.

    That other list that finished 16th looks like the work of a mad genius. I didn't get a chance to see it in action for obvious reasons but if the designer is on hear I'd be keen to hear from them on their card choices.


    Oh, no, no, no.
    I don't think you misplayed those games at all. You drew like a God, and played it out fine.
    I was referring to your feature match against eldrazi tron. (The game where you needled the endbringer over the dude you can stack with counters then remove for damage, with.. 3-4? Mill rocks in play at the time) not saying that's a mistake, though it seemed like an odd choice and I'd love to hear feedback on it. Feels like you had about 3 turns to draw a second needle or abrupt or die.
    In those games I saw some really weird mill choices. Like both empty hand, you have a tz on top, you double mill with shredders, then use your last bell (which presumably you would have used anyway since you don't want the tz). That's also the game where you both missed a codex mill.
    Please please tell me how those games went from your perspective.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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    posted a message on [Primer] Lantern Control
    Quote from KillerSOS »
    Quote from 4554551n »
    I was watching his top 8 tron game.
    He was one lucky man. Like inq, tz, tz, lantern double rock in first 3 turns type thing.

    Lost legacy is really good vs tron and scapeshift, and you can bring it in vs control for cryptics/snaps, k commands etc.

    I'm in awe at how he won. I watched a lot of his games through the night. Things like drawing bridge last possible moment, milling with codex before bell, and

    Mill with codex, response draw, response mill with bell. Mill, draw, both players forget the codex mill.
    He is by no means a bad player, but this was very much a case of gods smiling on him. He had no business beating tron, but he did it again and again


    Regardless of what anyone says you have to draw like a god to win any GP, no matter how skilled you are.


    "Oks began game 3 with a land, a Mox Opal, a Mishra's Bauble, a Grafdigger's Cage, and Inquisition of Kozilek, denying Takahashi a Faithless Looting and revealing that Takahashi had kept a one land hand. Takahashi played his land and passed it back, only to see Oks cap off his absurd first turn with a second land and an Ensnaring Bridge"
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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