I love how people in this forum claims the successful lists are questionable yet celebrates the fact that this forum lives in Tier 2 (because of these questionable lists which consistently top8s big events). This hypocresy that lies in these forums push successful people away from posting here (not only D&T/hatebears, but in general).
Maybe it's time to understand there is a reason why successful people running successful lists play different cards than most people here, rather than constantly say "this is bad, that's bad, they are so lucky". Retrospective time, everybody! Let's try understanding why successful people move away from the cards that are considered good and play cards that actually win games and yet are consiedered 'questionable' here.
Not trying to be harsh to anyone, nor trying to call out anyone. Just think it's about time to ponder about these things.
Considering changing the Countersquall in the main for another Liliana of the Veil, or Liliana, the Last Hope in place of 2nd LotV in the board (3 lilis total). Would also like to get another slot for GQ but can't touch surgicals as of now -maybe in the future- and the rest of the slots are pretty tight, can't really play it maindeck.
Not playing Mistbind mostly because Tron is not largely played in my LGS. Kalitas and Tasigur have been great in that spot, as they hose aggro decks pretty well.
The list feels strong, it has a fair game against most decks, although the only deck I have thoroughly tested is Merfolks (a bit over 100 games) with a win rate of 65% pre-board and 75%/80% post-board.
I've seen an uptick in discussion for Liliana of the Veil in the last couple pages. Having played her in faeries since 2014, here's my 2 cents on the card:
For people playing Lili in the main, consider trimming countermagic from your deck. Lili's dominance in the board comes from +1-ing her as much as possible, whether to quickly ultimate vs a Titan Shift deck or to control the board presence of a creature deck. If you can't profitably +1 her, you shouldn't be playing her (at least mainboard), and if you are siding her in, try to trim counterspells for her slots. When Lili is good, counters are generally bad -exception being combo/control, but then you do the same with removal spells- so keep that in mind.
In modern there are more creature based decks than spell based combo or control decks, so that makes our priorities a bit easier:
Removal spell > Counter spell.
Remember: Counters are good as long as there are things on the stack. For things to be on the stack, your opponent has to have cards in hand. Liliana is insanely good at having players go hellbent. So, if you're keeping your hand size in 1 card, keep the card that impacts the board, not the card that has the potential of impacting the stack. This is not really a rule, nor it's restricted to removal spells 100%. Assess the match up, assess your hand, decide what will have more impact before discarding and cursing your topdeck. Lili does not forgive.
Holding up counterspells and discarding value cards or removal to Lili is bad vs decks that want to tap creatures to win, that's why it's a general rule that Lili and counters don't get along (modern is a creature based format after all). Against creature decks it's easier to deal with a resolved creature through removal than having the window open to counter it, and -as where modern stands right now- good counterspells generally cost more mana than good creatures. So if you +1 Lili and you have a Counter and a Removal in hand, discard the counter and play the removal, then compliment with -2 if necessary. Even if you can't play the removal because you tapped out for lili or because you used your black source for a Tseize/IoK, discard the counter and play the removal next turn or when necessary.
The best card to join Lili in your deck is Snapcaster Mage. Always keep the Snapcaster when discarding to Lili's +1 (unless it's strictly necessary to hold something else and being forced to +1 her). Thiago will re-buy what you discarded to her or what you already used and need to re-use, while keeping the beats or protecting her. Don't be afraid of Snapcasting instants in your turn then proceed to +1 lili. If you play serum, you can play snap, target serum, +1 lili, then cast serum. Another great play is going Snap, flashback discard, +1 lili. Snapcaster Mage is the best ally of Liliana of the Veil in UB.
Anybody been using Nissa, Vital Force lately? I started to use her and she's been absolutely amazing. Thoughts?
She defends herself with +1 and can win the game the following turn. She can also add pressure or rebuy discarded titans, sacced/destroyed Expeditions and Elders/Fetchlands. It's a great tool to grind, but seems slower than Primal Command or at the same level of speed (although you use them differently). Seems good in a traditional BGx/Tron metagame. Not so sure about her in the current Dredge + Death's Shadow + Affinity + Burn meta.
do you side in blood moon against any decks besides the obvious land based decks? Is it worth it against DSJ and other discard heavy, moon-weak decks as another threat to pressure discard and occasionally steal a game? Is it good enough against affinity to shut off their inkmoth, which is often their fastest kill.
Against BGx and Shadow a resolved moon is usually game (esp vs shadow). You only need to dodge discard on T1 if on the play or 2 turns if on the draw, as ritual will help you cast it T2. It's not going to warp your winrate, but on the other side of the table when your choice is discard a card that prevents you from winning and a card that will kill you, you're not all that hyped (meaning getting thoughtseized and revealing an enabler and a moon).
Dark Tutor: Peer through depths doesn't specify that. Merchant scroll does. That's what I was getting at - peer lets you find a win condition, whereas scroll just digs for gifts. It depends a lot where you need help as to which I'd want to play, and personally I think digging 5 cards deep for whatever piece you need is better that just finding one piece that you likely already have.
I feel that merchant scroll is not the best card to play, for the sheer fact that it can only fetch blue instants - which is only remand or gifts ungiven in the main. It's okay as a setup if you'd otherwise whiff, but I think peer through depths gives you a lot more options. I certainly wouldn't play 4 scroll.
Have you read Peer Through Depths? It doesn't require the instant/sorcery card to be blue.
"So every red aggro deck should play 4 bolts.*" - Izzetmage
*Some caviats do apply:
- Do not do it if the deck has some other synergi, like affinaty.
- If you have some other synergi, like enabeling delerium, do not play bolt.
- Have some reason to not play bolt because it does not fit with the gameplan, like dredge.
- If perhaps the deck has like a plan that hinges on cascade, obviusly you should not run bolt.
Sarcasemn aside, any 'rule' that needs this many exeption is not a rule.
'Bolt is a good card, that is all.' - Vidar Thorsby 2017
That's a pretty poorly view. Affinity plays bolt in Galvanic Blast. They have a bolt that deals 4, why would they play a bolt that deals 3? They only have 4 slots for bolt effects, so they play 'affinity bolt' (the better bolt). Also, this is not a red aggro deck, this is just an aggro deck that is capable of generating red mana, but it's colorless at heart. Your exception isn't an exception.
Enabling delirium has nothing to do with not playing bolt, but if you want to enable it by T2 because you want to fetch and play Death's Shadow, chances are you want your bolt slot to be Tarfire. Not because you don't want bolt, but because it's more efficient to your gameplan. Here you are playing a pseudo combo deck: go below 13 and enable 4 card types by turn 2. You're not pure aggro. Your exception is out of place.
Dredge is a combo deck, dredge wants to bin a dredger and get free creatures. Dredge doesn't play cards that aren't enablers. Your exception is out of place.
Cascade decks in modern are combo decks (Living End/Restore Balance), combo decks are not aggro decks. They are combo decks. Again, this is not an exception, but a misconception of yours.
Yes, every red based aggro deck should play bolt (and they do it). That will not change because that is the ceiling of aggro-red in modern: 3 damage at instant speed for 1 mana with no other constraints: no need to play any specific synergistic card, no reliance on graveyard, not demanding any card types in any zone. Three damage. 1 mana. Instant. That's as good as it gets.
I think the biggest problem with harsh mentor, is that he does not actually stop opponents from using abilities, and jut damages them which won't stop them getting to wraths, and other important plays needed to stabilize. I'm optimistic that it will still be good enough, but when it comes to fetches, it's not anywhere close to arbiter. I think it shines the most against scooze and kiki combo, but also hits some relevant check marks against knight fall, affinity, and tron. I certainly think it could see play in the right meta.
It always depends on how to approach the matter. It's not necessarily an arbiter replacement, although it could be if you wanted it to. You can play the Mentor alongside Tunnel Ignus and then a fetchland of your opponent becomes a free Thunderous Wrath. Playing red also grants the good ol' Bolt AND Boros Charm, which is a Counterspell against wrath effects (and even 'counters' Verdict). Maybe you don't even want Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in your mainboard, or in the 75. Maybe you just tax in damage. So suddenly, them taking up to 8 damage to wrath (Fetch 1, Mentor +2, untapped Schokland +2, Tunnel Ignus +3) -although in a dream land- is not that bad of a trade as it can basically count as a free combat phase for you. Alternatively, it can cost les dmg but you get another attack step and more chances of playing preemptive answers to a wrath like Selfless Spirit. In this way you don't care them losing lands or not with arbiter, you have reach and can sneak early damage through combat + free damage from opponent's playing magic and finish off a burn spell. Although it's likely that it won't develop exactly like that in many games, I think I make my point. Maybe instead of Arbiter and little thalia you want Simian Spirit Guide and Big Thalia.
I'm not saying go play Harsh Mentor and Tunnel Ignus, and I would certainly never say they can replaces Arbiter or Thalia. Just saying it helps the archetype of WR taxes, and it's likely a key card to beat Tron, Griselbrand reanimator, affinity and coco, while punishing people for playing fetches. When your opponent's life total is 12/14 instead of 20, the amount of games you will lose 1 or 2 turns before winning will decrease significantly. It's just a matter of finding the right configuration and see if the archetype can approach the metagame correctly.
Harsh Mentor may be utter trash, but it doesn't look like that.
EDIT: Card also seems pretty good against Lantern Control.
Maybe, but noncreature 4 drops that do nothing on their own are not where this decks want to be in my opinion. Anyway, I was talking about red taxes, which seems a lot more appealing now.
Deck felt pretty good, Sudden Shocks are not quite the same anymore now that Infect is off the radar so might replace it with another Chandra, EE or a second Murasa/4th Baloth. A few punts here and there, nothing too big to make a difference in the outcome of the games, but the deck was great all in all.
Gideon seems great against Burn, Valakut, Death's Shadow decks, Ad Nauseam, Griselbrand Reanimator. It also seems to pay off to play it alongside Baby Gideon.
Being able to cast discard at instant speed is pretty good, as we can cast it during their draw step (if I understand the card correctly).
That being said, I feel like its really hard to evaluate, as it doesn't do anything by itself, but I'm hopeful.
Edit: apparently you can still only cast sorceries as sorceries, so discard doesn't work as well. Still quite interesting nonetheless.
*Used cards that are somewhat mainstream in Faeries as examples.
** Keep reading before pointing out that it's a cumulative effect.
The beauty of the card relies is that it reads [...]with converted mana cost X or less[...], which is a real treat, as it means that all the spells mentioned in the 'turn before' are cumulative in every turn, so if you have 3 counters you can still play a free Vision and keep up a free V clique in draw step. All this while using no mana: up to 2 spells per turn cycle for free.
The card has a high floor (it is a 3CMC sorcery speed spell, only good when you're drawing a good amount of cards) and an even higher ceiling (it can outright win the game if not answered/properly protected).
All in all, I think it's a pretty good card to play in the sideboard to keep up with decks that try to do serious business and our tempo doesn't catch up properly mid-to-late game. It's more of a mainboard material in combo decks.
Maybe it's time to understand there is a reason why successful people running successful lists play different cards than most people here, rather than constantly say "this is bad, that's bad, they are so lucky". Retrospective time, everybody! Let's try understanding why successful people move away from the cards that are considered good and play cards that actually win games and yet are consiedered 'questionable' here.
Not trying to be harsh to anyone, nor trying to call out anyone. Just think it's about time to ponder about these things.
4x Fatal Push
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Bitterblossom
4x Spellstutter Sprite
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Go for the Throat
1x Collective Brutality
1x Countersquall
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Dismember
3x Cryptic Command
1x Murderous Cut
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Mutavault
4x Polluted Delta
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Secluded Glen
1x Watery Grave
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Island
1x Swamp
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Dispel
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Echoing Truth
1x Collective Brutality
1x Countersquall
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Damnation
Considering changing the Countersquall in the main for another Liliana of the Veil, or Liliana, the Last Hope in place of 2nd LotV in the board (3 lilis total). Would also like to get another slot for GQ but can't touch surgicals as of now -maybe in the future- and the rest of the slots are pretty tight, can't really play it maindeck.
Not playing Mistbind mostly because Tron is not largely played in my LGS. Kalitas and Tasigur have been great in that spot, as they hose aggro decks pretty well.
The list feels strong, it has a fair game against most decks, although the only deck I have thoroughly tested is Merfolks (a bit over 100 games) with a win rate of 65% pre-board and 75%/80% post-board.
I've seen an uptick in discussion for Liliana of the Veil in the last couple pages. Having played her in faeries since 2014, here's my 2 cents on the card:
For people playing Lili in the main, consider trimming countermagic from your deck. Lili's dominance in the board comes from +1-ing her as much as possible, whether to quickly ultimate vs a Titan Shift deck or to control the board presence of a creature deck. If you can't profitably +1 her, you shouldn't be playing her (at least mainboard), and if you are siding her in, try to trim counterspells for her slots. When Lili is good, counters are generally bad -exception being combo/control, but then you do the same with removal spells- so keep that in mind.
In modern there are more creature based decks than spell based combo or control decks, so that makes our priorities a bit easier:
Removal spell > Counter spell.
Remember: Counters are good as long as there are things on the stack. For things to be on the stack, your opponent has to have cards in hand. Liliana is insanely good at having players go hellbent. So, if you're keeping your hand size in 1 card, keep the card that impacts the board, not the card that has the potential of impacting the stack. This is not really a rule, nor it's restricted to removal spells 100%. Assess the match up, assess your hand, decide what will have more impact before discarding and cursing your topdeck. Lili does not forgive.
Holding up counterspells and discarding value cards or removal to Lili is bad vs decks that want to tap creatures to win, that's why it's a general rule that Lili and counters don't get along (modern is a creature based format after all). Against creature decks it's easier to deal with a resolved creature through removal than having the window open to counter it, and -as where modern stands right now- good counterspells generally cost more mana than good creatures. So if you +1 Lili and you have a Counter and a Removal in hand, discard the counter and play the removal, then compliment with -2 if necessary. Even if you can't play the removal because you tapped out for lili or because you used your black source for a Tseize/IoK, discard the counter and play the removal next turn or when necessary.
The best card to join Lili in your deck is Snapcaster Mage. Always keep the Snapcaster when discarding to Lili's +1 (unless it's strictly necessary to hold something else and being forced to +1 her). Thiago will re-buy what you discarded to her or what you already used and need to re-use, while keeping the beats or protecting her. Don't be afraid of Snapcasting instants in your turn then proceed to +1 lili. If you play serum, you can play snap, target serum, +1 lili, then cast serum. Another great play is going Snap, flashback discard, +1 lili. Snapcaster Mage is the best ally of Liliana of the Veil in UB.
She defends herself with +1 and can win the game the following turn. She can also add pressure or rebuy discarded titans, sacced/destroyed Expeditions and Elders/Fetchlands. It's a great tool to grind, but seems slower than Primal Command or at the same level of speed (although you use them differently). Seems good in a traditional BGx/Tron metagame. Not so sure about her in the current Dredge + Death's Shadow + Affinity + Burn meta.
Against BGx and Shadow a resolved moon is usually game (esp vs shadow). You only need to dodge discard on T1 if on the play or 2 turns if on the draw, as ritual will help you cast it T2. It's not going to warp your winrate, but on the other side of the table when your choice is discard a card that prevents you from winning and a card that will kill you, you're not all that hyped (meaning getting thoughtseized and revealing an enabler and a moon).
I completely misread the post. Sorry
Have you read Peer Through Depths? It doesn't require the instant/sorcery card to be blue.
That's a pretty poorly view. Affinity plays bolt in Galvanic Blast. They have a bolt that deals 4, why would they play a bolt that deals 3? They only have 4 slots for bolt effects, so they play 'affinity bolt' (the better bolt). Also, this is not a red aggro deck, this is just an aggro deck that is capable of generating red mana, but it's colorless at heart. Your exception isn't an exception.
Enabling delirium has nothing to do with not playing bolt, but if you want to enable it by T2 because you want to fetch and play Death's Shadow, chances are you want your bolt slot to be Tarfire. Not because you don't want bolt, but because it's more efficient to your gameplan. Here you are playing a pseudo combo deck: go below 13 and enable 4 card types by turn 2. You're not pure aggro. Your exception is out of place.
Dredge is a combo deck, dredge wants to bin a dredger and get free creatures. Dredge doesn't play cards that aren't enablers. Your exception is out of place.
Cascade decks in modern are combo decks (Living End/Restore Balance), combo decks are not aggro decks. They are combo decks. Again, this is not an exception, but a misconception of yours.
Yes, every red based aggro deck should play bolt (and they do it). That will not change because that is the ceiling of aggro-red in modern: 3 damage at instant speed for 1 mana with no other constraints: no need to play any specific synergistic card, no reliance on graveyard, not demanding any card types in any zone. Three damage. 1 mana. Instant. That's as good as it gets.
It always depends on how to approach the matter. It's not necessarily an arbiter replacement, although it could be if you wanted it to. You can play the Mentor alongside Tunnel Ignus and then a fetchland of your opponent becomes a free Thunderous Wrath. Playing red also grants the good ol' Bolt AND Boros Charm, which is a Counterspell against wrath effects (and even 'counters' Verdict). Maybe you don't even want Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in your mainboard, or in the 75. Maybe you just tax in damage. So suddenly, them taking up to 8 damage to wrath (Fetch 1, Mentor +2, untapped Schokland +2, Tunnel Ignus +3) -although in a dream land- is not that bad of a trade as it can basically count as a free combat phase for you. Alternatively, it can cost les dmg but you get another attack step and more chances of playing preemptive answers to a wrath like Selfless Spirit. In this way you don't care them losing lands or not with arbiter, you have reach and can sneak early damage through combat + free damage from opponent's playing magic and finish off a burn spell. Although it's likely that it won't develop exactly like that in many games, I think I make my point. Maybe instead of Arbiter and little thalia you want Simian Spirit Guide and Big Thalia.
I'm not saying go play Harsh Mentor and Tunnel Ignus, and I would certainly never say they can replaces Arbiter or Thalia. Just saying it helps the archetype of WR taxes, and it's likely a key card to beat Tron, Griselbrand reanimator, affinity and coco, while punishing people for playing fetches. When your opponent's life total is 12/14 instead of 20, the amount of games you will lose 1 or 2 turns before winning will decrease significantly. It's just a matter of finding the right configuration and see if the archetype can approach the metagame correctly.
Harsh Mentor may be utter trash, but it doesn't look like that.
EDIT: Card also seems pretty good against Lantern Control.
Maybe, but noncreature 4 drops that do nothing on their own are not where this decks want to be in my opinion. Anyway, I was talking about red taxes, which seems a lot more appealing now.
Little by little, WR D&T becomes more plausible.
8x Mountain
4x Cinder Glade
3x Stomping Ground
2x Forest
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
4x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Spells:
2x Summoner's Pact
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Khalni-Heart Expedition
2x Farseek
4x Search for Tomorrow
2x Anger of the Gods
4x Scapeshift
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Primeval Titan
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Fog
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2x Sudden Shock
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Pulse of Murasa
3x Obstinate Baloth
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
R1: Jund (2-1).
R2: Seismic Swans (2-0).
R3: 8Whack (2-1).
R4: Merfolk (2-1).
R5: Junk (2-0).
R6: Goryo's Epertise (ID).
T8: Junk (2-0).
T4: Merfolk (2-1).
T2: GR Tron (2-1).
Deck felt pretty good, Sudden Shocks are not quite the same anymore now that Infect is off the radar so might replace it with another Chandra, EE or a second Murasa/4th Baloth. A few punts here and there, nothing too big to make a difference in the outcome of the games, but the deck was great all in all.
It goes like this:
T3:You resolve it, then you can play a free Ancestral Vision. Opponent's Turn, you get nothing.
T4: You tick it up, then you can play a free Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Serum Visions or Fatal Push. Opp's turn, you can play a free Fatal Push, Spell Snare or Dispel.
T5: You tick it up, then you can play a free Bitterblossom, Spellstutter Sprite, Go for the Throat, Mana Leak, Remand or Collective Brutality. Opp's turn, you can play a free Spellstutter Sprite, Go for the Throat, Mana Leak, Remand, Countersquall or Echoing Truth.
T6: You tick it up, then you can play a free Vendilion Clique, Dismember, Liliana of the Veil, Liliana, the Last Hope, Scion of Oona, Sword[/sword] [card=Sword of Light and Shadow]of X and [card=Sword of Body and Mind]Y or Hero's Downfall. Opp's turn, you can play a free Vendilion Clique, Dismember, Scion of Oona or Hero's Downfall.
T7: You tick it up, then you can play a free Damnation, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Mistbind Clique, Cryptic Command. Opp's turn, you can play a free Mistbind Clique or Cryptic Command.
T8+ is redundant.
*Used cards that are somewhat mainstream in Faeries as examples.
** Keep reading before pointing out that it's a cumulative effect.
The beauty of the card relies is that it reads [...]with converted mana cost X or less[...], which is a real treat, as it means that all the spells mentioned in the 'turn before' are cumulative in every turn, so if you have 3 counters you can still play a free Vision and keep up a free V clique in draw step. All this while using no mana: up to 2 spells per turn cycle for free.
The card has a high floor (it is a 3CMC sorcery speed spell, only good when you're drawing a good amount of cards) and an even higher ceiling (it can outright win the game if not answered/properly protected).
All in all, I think it's a pretty good card to play in the sideboard to keep up with decks that try to do serious business and our tempo doesn't catch up properly mid-to-late game. It's more of a mainboard material in combo decks.