Eldritch evolution is ridiculous in this deck. You can sacrify a geist to search for a broodbraid and cascade then getting a 3/2 geist, a 3/2 elf and another creatures that beat for 3 or more.
Sorry mate, Evolution doesn't trigger BBE's cascade as the BBE is put into play, not cast :/
@ThePennSylanLibrary
Been playing Revoker in the board for a while now and he's very good at doing what he's supposed to do - shut down specific, high-impact abilities (Liliana, Ballista, Ugin, Map, O-Stone, etc.). I like him a lot
Had some testing over the last two weeks, going 9-2 vs Mardu Pyromancer, 9-9 vs Jeskai and 5-6 vs Humans. Borrowed a 4c Shadow Deck (Duke's list I think?) from a friend, played against my Company, went 1-4, then went like 3-1 against it with Eldrazi Tron.
I can't deny that Company isn't putting up results like we'd maybe wish it would, but I don't understand the frustration that a lot of people seem to have about the deck. After some initial trouble with Shadow decks, I haven't had problems with midrange decks for months now. Jeskai Control feels pretty 50/50 overall (heavily dependant on sideboard plans tho). Big mana can be hard, but having a very combo-centric build helps a good bit. The deck has a lot of variance that it can die to, but it also has a lot of insane comeback and grind potential.
Haven't had a chance to play against UR Pyro yet, but I'm pretty curious about the MU. Hollow One as well... faced them like 2, 3 times only, so no idea (their build has changed a lot too).
All in all still feel we're okay. Humans can be rough, but if everything was easy, what fun would that be?
@LinkChmofsky
Seems fine to me. Draw makes it better against fair decks, play better for race MU's where they're unlikely to interact. The other cards obviously will shape the decision once you have some sort of suspicion about the MU, but yeah, blind t3 seems perfectly fine.
Thinking a bit deeper - it also gives us a better fast matchup where the t3 kill is the most important. If they disrupt us, we can still draw lands, Witness, Finks, etc. to rebuild and have a game. If they disrupt us AND present a quick kill it's bad, but that situation is always bad for us, so meh. Also I think it's preferable to lose G1 to screw + interaction against a fair-ish (and thus slower) deck than to lose it to a combo mirror for not having the t3 kill, because post-board in the fast race we can still just lose the entire match if we stumble a single turn (mull to often to find hate, miss a landdrop, not have the combo backup after the hatecard, etc), whereas the fair MU's give us more wiggleroom to win the match in 3 games.
Went something like 29-7 on xmage during the last week, sadly didn't have time for irl grinding. Lots of random decks as expected, but also a fair share of proper ones - beat 4 or 5 Shadow decks, mostly 2-0, a bunch of more classic BGx midrange, and some UW Control, Eldratron, Ad Naus, Storm, Fish and 8Rack. Got beaten up a bit by Tron (tested Fulmi, felt real bad), Valakut (had a really fun and close last game where the only out was Omen+Shift, which he had) and Burn. Losses to Burn were really interesting, don't think I've lost that MU before. Turns out it gets rough real quick if you don't draw your 4-of Finks there.
For most of those games I tried a version with 2 Sin Collectors in the main, hoping to face a bunch of Storm/Valakut/Control. Didn't really get my wish, Collector was decent enough, but is back in the board again. Mainboard now is on 3 Duskwatch, 1 Anafenza, 1 Ballista, 1 Rhonas again.
Finks has performed great throughout almost all MU's. Yeah, it ain't a great beater, but it gives the deck a much higher combo potential (infinite life still beats 60% of Tier 1 and 50% of Tier 2, assuming actual outs in UW, Knightfall and Elves), destroys fairs decks and buys time vs aggro to assemble (or re-assemble) a combo kill. Everybody agrees that Druid/Vizier is stronger, but relying on only one combo that is easily broken up (instead of two that are easily broken up) seems way too all-in for my taste.
Quote from Momsie »
The life combo lost me just as much. Titan opponents who don't scoop up. So you just lose on the spot to that kind of behaviour.
How exactly do you lose to people not conceding? They can't win, so if it's G1 they commit to a draw at best, assuming you can't find a way to kill them after stacking your deck. Or are we talking online here? In that case, sure, that will happen sometimes. Not really a fault of the combo however, but the game engine.
For you guys who really dislike Finks and want to go for some more Value Town/Hatebears approach - isn't Knightfall with Druid/Vizier just a strictly better place to experiment for that? Got Knights, got Company, got Druid, got Reflector Mage/Spell Queller for even more fair beats. Haven't experimented with anything, but if you wanna go that route, that seems like a good starting point to me.
I've been on Finks for a decently long time now and they still feel great and win me many matches
Don't feel like we're horribly positioned either... we have a t3 kill for races, redundancy to survive interactive decks, and can grind fairly well. Sideboard isn't exactly the worst either. Seem to be in the minority with that view of things tho :/
@Momsie
Sin Collector deals with their hand, Pharika deals with their board. Obviously Witness/Coco are amazing, so make sure that you'll get enough mana post-board (if boarding out dorks). Chord is pretty meh usually - and plays into their Denials if they keep them - so boarding them out completely is an option. Apart from that it's all combat math and such.
Got two more matches vs more conventional Tron (GW and GB) in today and managed to win both without too much trouble. I find that even t3 Karn isn't that hard to beat unless there's also lots of other stuff. Early Ugins and Walking Ballistas are the real problem, but even then, far from unbeatable.
U Tron felt pretty alright, had fast hands, they didn't have enough interaction to keep up, Revoker was great. Pharika comes in against decks with loads of removal and/or big creatures - Shadow, Eldratron, BGx, maybe Jeskai.
Went 15-0 with a new list the other day (xmage) against all kind of tier and jank decks. Can't remember all MU's perfectly, but there was a lot of Tron-style decks (at least 2x U Tron and some brews, can't remember if classic Gx was there) and a few Shadow decks of various colours. Phyrexian Revoker was pretty amazing, and having (almost) only combo pieces in the deck felt great, even in MU's where I didn't expect it.
@bfitz88
I'd agree with prioritising proactive combo cards over most hate. I feel the 3 slots that I'm using for Trackers are the only thing that could be played around with, but in the end... g1 we have the tools to outrace almost anything we have to outrace and outgrind almost anything we have to outgrind, so throwing potential dead draws in there feels more disruptive to the main strategy than anything else. Maybe 1 hate in the main is fine if we know the local meta or the card is very generically strong (like Ooze), dunno.
@Oathbreaker
Apart from the illegal 16th card the SB seems fine Discard/Value in vs fair decks, Paths in vs Bant Company maybe, should be fine, really.
Tempo is definately the hardest thing to beat, as all our stuff is really expensive.
With Draw-go I disagree. Yes, we can't say "let me get to 10 mana and eat Ulamogs each turn" but we still threaten a kill whenever they run out of answers for a turn. We basically want to get one or two small things down and then constantly trade so they won't have time or resources to deal with our board.
Yeah, fast combo is generally the way to go vs big mana and other combo. If they disrupt us, we go again or disrupt them back.
The drawstep discard can be very strong in certain MU's, yeah. VS Tron/Titan I kinda like it, vs control it's so risky to tap out when they can answer our 5-mana play with a Dispel or Negate and have a bunch of mana left.
@Oathbreaker
If you post your list here, we'll be able to give a lot more detailed insight
Counterspell decks require a lot of discipline and timing, so mostly practice stuff. Discard isn't super great there, as they'll generally be fairly redundant in the interaction department. Beatdown/value cards like Tracker and Knight can also help a lot. VS Storm you want Eidolon of Rhetoric, Aven Mindcensor, Orzhov Pontiff, Scavenging Ooze, creature removal etc. Discard can buy you that one turn, but it's a high risk strategy.
Fish... I don't know, maybe Decay, Pridemage, Rec Sage, stuff like that to blow up Cages and Aether Vials. I've never had problems with that MU, so I'm not sure.
Company mirrors (combo or not) can call for Orzhov Pontiff, Linvala (if you want to run CMC4 bullets), Aven Mindcensor, creature removal, Ooze, Phyrexian Revoker.. depends on what you're having problems with.
Not a fan of a discard focus in this deck (especially non-creature based one). I feel our strength lies in creating value and being redundant on top of our potential t3 kill, not dealing with their resources. We have a lot of permanent hate available that can do a much better job at dealing with problems.
@Akmer
I find the big mana decks to be pretty doable if we are combo heavy enough (not great by any means, but fairly even in my experience). They have to respect the t3 kill, so they need interaction + ramp + payoff. Sometimes they have it all (and we don't get to hate them out for a turn or two), but over many games, the fast kill backed by some hate should give us a pretty decent shot. Depends a lot on play/draw and sideboarding plans.
Tracker does die a lot, but in general it feels worth the risk. Worst case it still discards a removal spell for later combo attempts, best case it gives us a 5/4 with 2 additional cards next turn (or lets us hold up Coco while beating down). There is variance with the card, but the upside seems strong enough.
So far I've felt good about drawing her against most decks. Yeah, she's not the perfect play vs Storm or Scapeshift, but sometimes we don't have the fast kill and a 4/5 turn clock is all we get to make.
Can't remember not having time to crack the clues.
It's hard to keep actual data for that kinda stuff sadly, I'll try to focus a bit more on it in further testing tho, to have clearer answers than "I feel like this or that" All together, Tracker seems like a good backup card that can sometimes help us combo. She's not a combo piece, which is the biggest issue, but I'm not sold that the alternatives are better (Sculler, Knight, Toolboxy guys, more Duskwatch). Seeing our main strength beside the fast combo is our ability to grind out fair decks and rebuild after a lot of disruption, having a fair card that can assist the unfair plan seems really strong.
Sorry mate, Evolution doesn't trigger BBE's cascade as the BBE is put into play, not cast :/
Been playing Revoker in the board for a while now and he's very good at doing what he's supposed to do - shut down specific, high-impact abilities (Liliana, Ballista, Ugin, Map, O-Stone, etc.). I like him a lot
I can't deny that Company isn't putting up results like we'd maybe wish it would, but I don't understand the frustration that a lot of people seem to have about the deck. After some initial trouble with Shadow decks, I haven't had problems with midrange decks for months now. Jeskai Control feels pretty 50/50 overall (heavily dependant on sideboard plans tho). Big mana can be hard, but having a very combo-centric build helps a good bit. The deck has a lot of variance that it can die to, but it also has a lot of insane comeback and grind potential.
Haven't had a chance to play against UR Pyro yet, but I'm pretty curious about the MU. Hollow One as well... faced them like 2, 3 times only, so no idea (their build has changed a lot too).
All in all still feel we're okay. Humans can be rough, but if everything was easy, what fun would that be?
Seems fine to me. Draw makes it better against fair decks, play better for race MU's where they're unlikely to interact. The other cards obviously will shape the decision once you have some sort of suspicion about the MU, but yeah, blind t3 seems perfectly fine.
Thinking a bit deeper - it also gives us a better fast matchup where the t3 kill is the most important. If they disrupt us, we can still draw lands, Witness, Finks, etc. to rebuild and have a game. If they disrupt us AND present a quick kill it's bad, but that situation is always bad for us, so meh. Also I think it's preferable to lose G1 to screw + interaction against a fair-ish (and thus slower) deck than to lose it to a combo mirror for not having the t3 kill, because post-board in the fast race we can still just lose the entire match if we stumble a single turn (mull to often to find hate, miss a landdrop, not have the combo backup after the hatecard, etc), whereas the fair MU's give us more wiggleroom to win the match in 3 games.
For most of those games I tried a version with 2 Sin Collectors in the main, hoping to face a bunch of Storm/Valakut/Control. Didn't really get my wish, Collector was decent enough, but is back in the board again. Mainboard now is on 3 Duskwatch, 1 Anafenza, 1 Ballista, 1 Rhonas again.
Finks has performed great throughout almost all MU's. Yeah, it ain't a great beater, but it gives the deck a much higher combo potential (infinite life still beats 60% of Tier 1 and 50% of Tier 2, assuming actual outs in UW, Knightfall and Elves), destroys fairs decks and buys time vs aggro to assemble (or re-assemble) a combo kill. Everybody agrees that Druid/Vizier is stronger, but relying on only one combo that is easily broken up (instead of two that are easily broken up) seems way too all-in for my taste.
How exactly do you lose to people not conceding? They can't win, so if it's G1 they commit to a draw at best, assuming you can't find a way to kill them after stacking your deck. Or are we talking online here? In that case, sure, that will happen sometimes. Not really a fault of the combo however, but the game engine.
For you guys who really dislike Finks and want to go for some more Value Town/Hatebears approach - isn't Knightfall with Druid/Vizier just a strictly better place to experiment for that? Got Knights, got Company, got Druid, got Reflector Mage/Spell Queller for even more fair beats. Haven't experimented with anything, but if you wanna go that route, that seems like a good starting point to me.
Don't feel like we're horribly positioned either... we have a t3 kill for races, redundancy to survive interactive decks, and can grind fairly well. Sideboard isn't exactly the worst either. Seem to be in the minority with that view of things tho :/
Sin Collector deals with their hand, Pharika deals with their board. Obviously Witness/Coco are amazing, so make sure that you'll get enough mana post-board (if boarding out dorks). Chord is pretty meh usually - and plays into their Denials if they keep them - so boarding them out completely is an option. Apart from that it's all combat math and such.
List
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Viscera Seer
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
1 Rhonas
Spells (8)
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands (20)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Forest
2 Gavony Township
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
I'd agree with prioritising proactive combo cards over most hate. I feel the 3 slots that I'm using for Trackers are the only thing that could be played around with, but in the end... g1 we have the tools to outrace almost anything we have to outrace and outgrind almost anything we have to outgrind, so throwing potential dead draws in there feels more disruptive to the main strategy than anything else. Maybe 1 hate in the main is fine if we know the local meta or the card is very generically strong (like Ooze), dunno.
Apart from the illegal 16th card the SB seems fine
Link doesn't work :/
Tempo is definately the hardest thing to beat, as all our stuff is really expensive.
With Draw-go I disagree. Yes, we can't say "let me get to 10 mana and eat Ulamogs each turn" but we still threaten a kill whenever they run out of answers for a turn. We basically want to get one or two small things down and then constantly trade so they won't have time or resources to deal with our board.
Yeah, fast combo is generally the way to go vs big mana and other combo. If they disrupt us, we go again or disrupt them back.
The drawstep discard can be very strong in certain MU's, yeah. VS Tron/Titan I kinda like it, vs control it's so risky to tap out when they can answer our 5-mana play with a Dispel or Negate and have a bunch of mana left.
If you post your list here, we'll be able to give a lot more detailed insight
Counterspell decks require a lot of discipline and timing, so mostly practice stuff. Discard isn't super great there, as they'll generally be fairly redundant in the interaction department. Beatdown/value cards like Tracker and Knight can also help a lot. VS Storm you want Eidolon of Rhetoric, Aven Mindcensor, Orzhov Pontiff, Scavenging Ooze, creature removal etc. Discard can buy you that one turn, but it's a high risk strategy.
Fish... I don't know, maybe Decay, Pridemage, Rec Sage, stuff like that to blow up Cages and Aether Vials. I've never had problems with that MU, so I'm not sure.
Company mirrors (combo or not) can call for Orzhov Pontiff, Linvala (if you want to run CMC4 bullets), Aven Mindcensor, creature removal, Ooze, Phyrexian Revoker.. depends on what you're having problems with.
Not a fan of a discard focus in this deck (especially non-creature based one). I feel our strength lies in creating value and being redundant on top of our potential t3 kill, not dealing with their resources. We have a lot of permanent hate available that can do a much better job at dealing with problems.
@Akmer
I find the big mana decks to be pretty doable if we are combo heavy enough (not great by any means, but fairly even in my experience). They have to respect the t3 kill, so they need interaction + ramp + payoff. Sometimes they have it all (and we don't get to hate them out for a turn or two), but over many games, the fast kill backed by some hate should give us a pretty decent shot. Depends a lot on play/draw and sideboarding plans.
So far I've felt good about drawing her against most decks. Yeah, she's not the perfect play vs Storm or Scapeshift, but sometimes we don't have the fast kill and a 4/5 turn clock is all we get to make.
Can't remember not having time to crack the clues.
It's hard to keep actual data for that kinda stuff sadly, I'll try to focus a bit more on it in further testing tho, to have clearer answers than "I feel like this or that"