MTG Salvation

For being faster. Like, a lot faster (to get an idea: dorks are 33%-50% of the time a turn slower in comparison).

Elementals discord: https://discord.gg/QG62Gja

Fully agree on the reef analysis save that it doesn't really compete with turn 2 skelemental but supplements it.

I'm currently thinking that perhaps 3 Reefs are the correct amount,

What does Vial and Phantasmal Image bring to the deck that SSGs/neonate and Unearth didn't already solve more consistently?

In my opinion decklists are not interchangeable at all: turn 2 Lightning Skelemental vs turn 2 setup cards and Risen Reef vs Discard are the main consideration and in my experience they have very different strong and weak points.

Regardless of how you build, graveyard hate besides surgical (which is completely random on how good it is depending on the texture of the matchup and the specific cards in play) is "GY vs storm" tough, as Unearth cycles, only the first reanimation effect is that important, Awakener can be setup before you draw counter-hate and there are tutors for counter-hate.

Concerning matchups, I have no experience vs humans (if they're playing Thalia I expect it to be very unfavorable) but the versions with Risen Reef thrive against removal-based decks, control in general and big mana strategies. Against Storm or other combo, it depends on whether the specific flavor manages to discard a critical mass or simply useful things and/or interact with creatures to slow them down for a turn or two.

In my opinion, you can definitely build towards hitting the decks you want to hit by just changing 2-3 slots, although the cards that help do this are not that obvious from a first glance (e.g. run Shriekmaw to help in the human and mono-R prowess matchups so as to curve Harbinger-Shriekmaw-Skelemental when explosiveness isn't there and have a harbinger into Shriekmaw accessible with Reef in the middle game).

Small note that Flamekin Harbinger is really annoying to play with if you don't run Risen Reef versions, so I recommend testing whether you're ok with that; otherwise you need to run the more expensive 5-color manabase to support Reef.

Lastly, I can't say for other pilots but I don't play on MTGO, even if I test a lot in other places.

P.S. My latest mainboard (changes: SSGs and a better manabase after some insightful considerations from reddit). Maindeck 2x Collective Brutality are my flex slots, competing with 2x Golden Goose, 2x Mind Rake or Shriekmaw+Rage Forger (forger invalidates slow graveyard hate).

Hi all after a lot of time!
Very intriguing @Ass of Ugin. I did play around with grixis splashing for 2 Vesperlarks for a little bit too.

However, I lately realized that a) Mind Rake exists and is an enabler, disruption and mid-game CA and b) running a playset of Risen Reef allows Harbinger to get immediately its tutor targets in the lategame (hence avoiding the density issue that tended to plague the card). Hence, I went full degenerate (manabase budgetish):


I still haven't found a good way to jam SSGs in there.

@Wesste I strongly encourage Unearth to double the ETB effects in the Skirk Prospector deck; it's incredibly mana efficient, doesn's require going off-color and cycles when you don't have good targets.

Infestation is worth it only if you also run Squee and dredge to consistently enable it (so it's natural for infestation+Loam to feel anemic on their own), who's in turn worth it only if you run at least another discard outlet (previously Conflagrate).

At the certain point in time, I have to reluctantly admit that this archetype doesn't bring anything over dredge to the table.

So, let's indeed try to morph to a rock-style CA! In this direction, perhaps the best starting point in my opinion is to see what Jund is built like, then replace W&S with Loam and Bolt with more removal (not pox yet) and finally see in which directions the deck fails to see what the complementary effects should be.

Quote from deritof »

Once Upon a Time sounds like a very good card in a lot of decks too. For us, it's Forger 9-12, as well as more digging for sideboard pieces. My only problem is that if I were to draw a OUaT later in the game, I wouldn't feel too good.

I think Grum really needs to be in the less explosive versions (Vial) of the deck since those tend to take advantage of Wolf and Elemetal tokens a lot more.

In my experience with running Oath of Nissa for a long time now, Once Upon a Time would probably feel amazing in the lategame too, since it can find both forgers (making creatures bigger) and rix-maadi (that allows grinding).

Also, being Forger 9-12 is much less exciting for me compared to enabling consistently 3 shamans before turn 3, which is how this archetype wins games.

Merchant is definitely superior to Reveler thanks to the reduced cost, probably not to Neonate (Neonate can be deployed a turn early to gain more information about the gameplan) and I think perhaps it can substitute an unknown number of Shriekhorns (probably one + another copy in the flex slot). The main constraint is still the amount of mana on the first two turns (ideally, we'd want to first play harbringer to fetch Awakener and on the second turn discard-draw and play Awakener).

I don't see how we can consistently go up to 3-4 attackers for the equipment. Sometimes it happens, but when it does we're usually winning big time already. Additional problem: if we manage to enable it, we'd need two of them + a Flickerwisp = a total of 3 slots that may be hard to free.

Small update: I'm currently 100% degenerate by cutting the Revelers. It could be mistake, but I find disruption generally superior to card advantage, since Skelemental gives us all the advantage we need; getting even in cards is a good trade if we also deal 6 in the process.



Things I tried in the meanwhile:
- 3x Helix: does nothing vs DS, whereas Brutality strips a removal away
- 2x and 3x Seasoned Pyromancer: won or died with it stuck in hand. It was particularly horrendous with SSG.

For the flex slot:
I really don't know what to play there. Anything goes as long as it's either useful in the lategame or supplements existing effects. Currently, I'm on Deputy of Detention to catch bridge and things that slipped past, but it's easy to run an extra (horizon) land, Lightning Axe (it's also a discard outlet to supplement Neonate, but we already get enough card disadvantage), Path/Push/Thoughtseize (I'd like to run two of these though if the first copy is included), Darkblast (this card is amazing in slowing down value-town style and infect - not to mention that it has dredge if needed - but I wouldn't play it solely for this reason anymore) or simply mainboarding an Ingot Chewer (stupid Butterskull).

I can't really get behind that statement. However, I'm thinking of exactly Tron and UW stoneblade as the decks we should be able beat to have game against without losing % points in other matchups, which may be mistake.

So, how about running just the Shriekhorns (e.g. in place of SSGs - perhaps also removing the imp) by thinking them as discard outlets for the things Harbringer tutors that also fill the graveyard? I think such a build drastically improves the chances of turn 2 Skelemental overall, without sacrificing much else.

The cool thing with Shriekhorn is that it's a supplement to discard outlets and a turn 1 one to boot! So, you lose only one card (the same as SSG or neonate) to get you ahead of tempo. Generally, I think that a deck running at least 10 reanimation spells + 4 ways to tutor for them would be happy to put more cards in the graveyard.

P.S. Is there any merit at all for Helix instead of Brutality main?
P.P.S. I was toying with Seasoned Pyromancer vs Reveler. I think Reveler curves better overall, but Pyromancer is a better Unearth target.

So, execution aside, can you comment on the issue I'm identifying @Ass of Ugin: that turn 3 skelemental is too slow to be the primary gameplan?

If you agree, how do you think this can be solved? If you disagree, do you believe that e.g. with the amount of removal you're running you can slow down the game by a turn to execute the same gameplan regardless?

Mind you, I'm not even that reliant on the graveyard - my SB against fair decks usually includes 2x Harbringers + 2x Wear//Tear + 2x Deputy of Detention and I've been reasonably pleased with this configuration.

If you're on the 4x Flamekin Harbinger plan I agree that perhaps dredgers are not needed.

That said, after trying it both ways, I think that dredgers are definitely superior compared to at least the 3rd and 4th harbringers, on account that harbringers don't work well with the reanimation package - i.e. they often leave Vesperlark and Unearth be dead cards in hand.

I tested in the beginning with Inquiry before settling on Rix Maadi Reveler for myself and my opinion is that we can't keep up with the card disadvantage Inquiry creates. If you're on a creature-heavy meta (especially one with Stoneforges) I think Lightning Axe is a good inclusiong. But by all means test it and tell how it goes. Random thought since you're on blue, perhaps Thought Scour could use a try too.


Edit to avoid double posting
After many repetitions in seeking a good trade-off between explosiveness, grindiness and the ability to answer scooze my mainboard has become like this:



Some comments:
- Shriekhorn can get some cards in the graveyard fast to start the engine. I like thinking it as a dredger that "discards itself", which means that it doesn't even need another discard outlet to help find useful things. At this point, I'm pretty convinced that getting cards into play through the graveyard is the only way this deck can become explosive enough to seriously contest the rest of modern's metagame.
- 2x Golgari Thug have proven very solid overall as a supplement to Shriekhorn, but I'm currently on Darkblasts in their place because it's an answer to turn 1 dorks to get back tempo.
- In this type of build that runs Shriekhorns and doesn't reanimate particularly large elementals, I've found that dredgers should be equal in number to Versperlarks to get a gameplay where reanimators don'r remain sitting in hand.

@Ass of Ugin
Charm and simians is interesting, to say the least.
Especially Simians, which I think fix an inherent curve problem by enabling Harbringer into turn 2 skelemental (although this could be too much card disadvantage for an 1-time effect).
Has charm performed well?
Also, just something to keep in mind: perhaps you're playing 1 land too many given the 4 simians, but I get manascrewed a lot on 19 lands without Simians, so who am I to judge?


@Everyone
After a lot of testing, Vesperlark should probably be a 3-of, since it doesn't have a lot of impactful targets (but we do want to see one each game, so I wouldn't cut it further).

Minor notes on Spitebellows:
a) It's an amazing Awakener target with Golgari Thug in play, since it at least guarantees we get Awakener todecked should it die in combat.
b) Curving just a naked Awakener into an evoked Spitebellow is very good against creature-heavy decks.

Also, I'm not very sure about this, but I'm under the impression that stoneforge control would generally dislike playing sweepers, which is how this archetype loses that matchup.


P.S. Do we have a plan vs geist?

With the looting ban, we're now forced to run Neonate either way.

In general, I'm more interested in low-to the ground decks that can also be proactive in their gameplan in addition to grinding. Specifically, I'd like to not auto-lose to all three of Tron, Burn and Control if possible, and I think that with this archetype we can bring in disruptive elements that make it possible.

Unfortunately, for me, goldfish's type of builds don't do this very well; they run a bunch of high mana creatures with the plan of vialing them into play, which I believe is too slow for modern (good luck getting your vial up to 3 on turn 4). The only pieces that help in some of those aspects are, in my opinion, Awakener, Vesperlark and Risen Reef.

Concerning the viability of the dredge strategy, I think it's the best route to try and find multiple synergistic elements without losing an additional turn topdecking them and mana to get them to play. Skelemental on turn 3 after losing the first 2 turns doing nothing is "meh" but on turn 2 or turn 3 after some disruption (including the time to bolt turn 1) is very powerful. Even reanimating some disruption and Skelemental on turn 3 is a very powerful line purely thanks to its mana efficiency in being able to get the respective effects for 1 and 2 mana. In this vein, I think Smokebraider is the correct direction, but I'd rather not run the type of build were a bolt can set me back several turns.

An updated build in this direction: