I have moved away from AV. After 40-50 games with it, Im no longer convinced.
I'd hate to say I told you so, but...
ANYWAYS, I have been playing a Bounding Krasis and Kiki list for a while now (I'll put it in the spoiler on this post), and I haven't played with Eldritch Evolution or Traverse the Ulvenwald yet but they seem pretty interesting to say the least
I have no doubts how importnt U is. All Im saying is that your build forgoes two core cards, so you might as well drop the U in RUG altogether.
There is no set way to build RUG midrange. If there comes a time when there is a consistently top-tiered RUG Midrange deck, with those cards, then I will change my stance on that. There are two incredibly different ways to play it. One, is the Tarmogoyf Visions deck which is just gonna outvalue the opponent with efficiency. The way I have it built, it's a much more responsive version that can stabilize incredibly well, while still playing (somewhat) less efficient creatures with the added value of utility. To each his own
You might as well go GR and drop U if you dont plan on running goyfs or ancestral vision. This shell demands goyf, and a turn 1 ancestral is pretty devastating since this shell can easily delay games past turn 5.
The list seems slow. Have you tested it in a competitive environment?
Dropping blue is definitely not what the deck wants, it fuels the deck and gives you access to Knuckleblade and Mystic Snake. Blue is the driving force of the deck, it draws you answers, gives you some answers, and just overall keeps you in games. Thinking this type of deck needs visions and goyf is a bad way of thinking, I feel.
The list plays like a midrange deck, so if turns 3-5 is slow then yes it's slow. Works very well against creature decks, as your creatures trump theirs most times. Burn gets rid of any early threats, and countermagic keeps the board clear of larger creatures and removal. It has a whole lot of action to work with at every phase of the game, so the skill cap is somewhat higher than playing Tarmogoyf and Ancestral Vision, but the deck has a higher payoff as there are very few "dead" draws in here. Against collected company decks you have pretty good game, as you have ways to deal with their spells before and after the fact
Opposing Goyfs are rendered obsolete against the build as well, since you can either keep him tapped down, or just overpower him with a knuckleblade
EDIT: Maybe saying it's a "bad" way of looking at it was the wrong wording, and I apologize if that came off rudely, no ill will intended. I just don't think those cards should be shoe-ins. Very few cards are to me, and I have played modern since its' inception with green decks with and without Tarmogoyf. Playing without it feels better to me personally, I just don't think he does enough when I could be playing a utility creature or something such as that
Here's a little somethin I've been working with lately, and I actually quite like the way it turned out. Thoughts?
I'm using Demon of Death's Gate as a really bad dread return, which I'm still on the fence about. The games you have it in the opener though, it's great! Works awesome with Bridge From Below, and Goblin Bushwhacker gets a good old "Free" spell to trigger the surge cost as well. Zombie Infestation really made me want to run the goblin, as there will be times where you put two zombies out for "free", and bring some Bloodghasts onto the battlefield for "free". At this point, you're cooking with gas! Bushwacker just sets it off a turn faster with much less reaction time from the opponent.
EDIT: Thanks Gabriel
This is a deck I made for a friend, didn't use any Ancestral Visions, Blood Moon, or Tarmogoyf which at first looks questionable sure, but I don't think they do what this specific build wants to do. This deck, is largely a value creature deck that goes in for beats while protecting its' threats. Having the Utopia Sprawl is mostly a concession to wanting a 5th Birds of Paradise, but a card like that does not exist so Sprawl is the next best thing to me. While it can only be attached to a Forest, it can't be hit with a removal spell outside of Abrupt Decay and can do more or less the same thing for our mana fixing. Getting to 3 and 4 mana is really important, so a 5th mana dork is best. Savage Knuckleblade and Bounding Krasis are both awesome creatures, one giving you an efficient and fast clock while the other allows you to have countermagic up before being able to cast it on their turn.
A 2/2 split of Cryptic Command and Mystic Snake gives you two different types of utility, and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker on a Snake is no joke. Bounding Krasis is a largely relevant body for 3 mana and comes with flash, while also giving you an instant win combo with Kiki. Thragtusk? Why not! Kiki whipes the floor against most decks with a Tusk out so that's a good inclusion I think.
As far as the Sideboard is concerned, I feel pretty good about where it's at, aside from Surrak Dragonclaw. What would be better in this spot, anything? Not 100% sure what the bad matchups would be for this deck, but I could see some number of Kitchen Finks being in the 75 as well
Contemplating taking out the Kolaghan's Commands from the board, and adding Kuro, Pitlord to the side for some of the creature-heavy matchups. Any thoughts as to what the second card added should be?
Hey guys, here with another deck idea. Now that the Eldrazi decks are at least in part shifting away from the Processor route, I feel safer playing with my yard. Playing with the yard invites for broken plays, and I'm not sure there are many others better than Goryo's Vengeance. First off, here's the list:
Some of the cooler card choices/interactions in the deck have to be Spinerock Knoll, Magmatic Insight+Dakmor Salvage, and Dark Petition.
1. Spinerock allows you to put a fatty down under a hideaway land (or even a removal spell can be nice), and the requirement for activation will always be fulfilled if a hit with a creature connects. Actually CASTING the creature is huge, with Emrakul specifically.
2. Magmatic Insight and Dakmor Salvage. I could also put Faithless Looting here, but you need to have one of the lands in the yard first to activate that route. With Magmatic Insight, the most important part to the card is the fact that you discard a land as an ADDITIONAL cost to cast the card. That way, you can immediately hit a dredge trigger with your magmatic insight, possibly as early as turn 1 or 2 (Spirit Guides make for some silly early plays).
3. Dark Petition. Even at 5 mana, this spell can be cast as early as turn 3 with the help of Pentad Prism and the Spirit Guides. With Spell mastery, you're instantly able to find any removal spell in the deck and cast it, find a Liliana of the Veil and cast it, or even find: A) a fatty, B) Goryo's Vengeance, or C) a discard spell. If you have 2 of the 3 parts of that combo interaction, you're going off. Spending 1 mana to either Thoughtseize or Despise yourself lets you use the 2 remaining mana to cast Goryo's to reanimate whatever you decided to grab.
Comments are welcome, and appreciated! Thanks in advance everyone. I could see either reducing the amount of Dakmors, or increasing the number of Magmatics based on how they continue to perform, but right now I think it's fine
I would consider playing a Noxious revival or two, maybe cutting it to 15 lands and shaving another card off. I think Faithless Looting is a very strong tool for this deck (If you play fatestitcher) especially if you're playing noxious revival. You can essentially use the yard as an extension of your hand. I've never thought of playing Leyline, and quite frankly I think it's worthless. I play against predominantly Jund and Black-based control decks in my meta, and Those cards almost feel like a time walk in my benefit. If they take one of my pieces, I play enough dig that it's not going to matter all too much and I also don't have to worry about a lightning bolt or some other clock entering the field when they cast an inquisition or Thoughtseize turn 1.
Having said that, I don't play against much affinity, so is it worth playing any artifact hate? I feel like we can combo off fast enough before we die, but not much affinity around where I'm at to test that.
Well, here's the thing. With Ascendancy out, And a creature, you just go until you mill a fatestitcher and then the game is over if you have view from above, as you're just going to "Draw" your whole deck as need be and play all your glittering wishes to get cards in your board that are going to stop them from killing your creatures. It never runs clunky, and turn 2 wins aren't all that uncommon in the tournaments I've played
Grapeshot is also nice as you can sweep up any blockers they may have on the board, or cut your ascendancy triggers needed to win in half essentially.
Here are my thoughts on Anticipate vs Manamorphose (I haven't actually tested yet though so bear that in mind).
Assuming you have Jeskai Ascendancy in play, Anticipate is better when you have 2 dorks out because you will be able to dig deeper than Manamorphose and still be able to cast anything you draw. Manamorphose is better if you only have 1 dork out because it's a "free" spell that will let you start building mana faster then you can spend it, but you can also fizzle more easily since it only draws 1 card.
Does this assessment make sense or am I way off base?
I guess it really depends, sometimes generating more than 2 mana is pretty nice because then you can have some excess mana for some interaction with your opponent even if they try to kill a creature during combat or something.
Anyways, this is the list I run. Some extra ways to win with a Grapeshot and some View From Above. Faith's Shield is a great silver bullet to have, since we draw so many cards it's not too hard to find. Helps keep Ascendancy alive, or our creatures all for one mana! So good.
Falkenrath Aristocrat I always feel is a lot riskier of a play, being a 4-drop. I think the best strategy for this deck is to just try and go under the opponent for enough damage to make their fatties irrelevant with the life gain-drain effects
That would be a good burn spell in the deck, but I'm not sure it does enough otherwise to warrant an inclusion, sadly. It just doesn't really help any weaker matchups, and doesn't really make the good matchups much better either
Notes: PLEASE include additional win routes besides the beatdown. I think what your deck lacks if at all is reach. So far your game plan is consistent in what it wants to do but I am sure it could be better with the inclusion of red. A good deck is born when the flavour is left behind. I'm not sure how far you can get on black alone. Nykthos seems a bit wierd in a deck with nearly no card draw. In Rakdos colors there's a lot to gain. Think about it.
I think I may end up doing something like
-1 Disfigure
+1 Smother/Inquisition of Kozilek (Depending on the meta I guess?)
And for the sideboard
-2 Ghost Quarter
+2 Rain of Tears
Main reason I don't play red, is because it's hard to support it in all honesty. Not only do you run so many colorless lands (Nykthos might be able to get cut, and you may not need 4 Caverns) but you really don't want to be running fetch lands at all. You already lower your life total a fair amount with your own cards as is against aggro decks, and I think fetches would put us in bolt range MUCH easier against them. For the tools you gain with red, you also get that much weaker versus certain decks :/
I'd hate to say I told you so, but...
ANYWAYS, I have been playing a Bounding Krasis and Kiki list for a while now (I'll put it in the spoiler on this post), and I haven't played with Eldritch Evolution or Traverse the Ulvenwald yet but they seem pretty interesting to say the least
2 Breeding Pool
2 Cascade Bluffs
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Flooded Grove
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Raging Ravine
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Bounding Krasis
1 Eternal Witness
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Mystic Snake
4 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Thragtusk
Instants
2 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
Sorceries
2 Forked Bolt
4 Serum Visions
Enchantments
1 Utopia Sprawl
1 Eternal Witness
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Keranos, God of Storms
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
2 Swerve
2 Thragtusk
Shoot, even Street Wraith works too I guess
There is no set way to build RUG midrange. If there comes a time when there is a consistently top-tiered RUG Midrange deck, with those cards, then I will change my stance on that. There are two incredibly different ways to play it. One, is the Tarmogoyf Visions deck which is just gonna outvalue the opponent with efficiency. The way I have it built, it's a much more responsive version that can stabilize incredibly well, while still playing (somewhat) less efficient creatures with the added value of utility. To each his own
Dropping blue is definitely not what the deck wants, it fuels the deck and gives you access to Knuckleblade and Mystic Snake. Blue is the driving force of the deck, it draws you answers, gives you some answers, and just overall keeps you in games. Thinking this type of deck needs visions and goyf is a bad way of thinking, I feel.
The list plays like a midrange deck, so if turns 3-5 is slow then yes it's slow. Works very well against creature decks, as your creatures trump theirs most times. Burn gets rid of any early threats, and countermagic keeps the board clear of larger creatures and removal. It has a whole lot of action to work with at every phase of the game, so the skill cap is somewhat higher than playing Tarmogoyf and Ancestral Vision, but the deck has a higher payoff as there are very few "dead" draws in here. Against collected company decks you have pretty good game, as you have ways to deal with their spells before and after the fact
Opposing Goyfs are rendered obsolete against the build as well, since you can either keep him tapped down, or just overpower him with a knuckleblade
EDIT: Maybe saying it's a "bad" way of looking at it was the wrong wording, and I apologize if that came off rudely, no ill will intended. I just don't think those cards should be shoe-ins. Very few cards are to me, and I have played modern since its' inception with green decks with and without Tarmogoyf. Playing without it feels better to me personally, I just don't think he does enough when I could be playing a utility creature or something such as that
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 City of Brass
3 Dakmor Salvage
2 Drownyard Temple
4 Mana Confluence
Creatures
4 Bloodghast
1 Demon of Death's Gate
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Gravecrawler
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Faithless Looting
Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below
3 Zombie Infestation
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
4 Ground Seal
3 Lightning Axe
2 Liliana of the Veil
Here's a little somethin I've been working with lately, and I actually quite like the way it turned out. Thoughts?
I'm using Demon of Death's Gate as a really bad dread return, which I'm still on the fence about. The games you have it in the opener though, it's great! Works awesome with Bridge From Below, and Goblin Bushwhacker gets a good old "Free" spell to trigger the surge cost as well. Zombie Infestation really made me want to run the goblin, as there will be times where you put two zombies out for "free", and bring some Bloodghasts onto the battlefield for "free". At this point, you're cooking with gas! Bushwacker just sets it off a turn faster with much less reaction time from the opponent.
EDIT: Thanks Gabriel
2 Breeding Pool
2 Cascade Bluffs
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Flooded Grove
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Raging Ravine
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Bounding Krasis
1 Eternal Witness
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Mystic Snake
4 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Thragtusk
Instants
2 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
Sorceries
2 Forked Bolt
4 Serum Visions
Enchantments
1 Utopia Sprawl
1 Eternal Witness
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Keranos, God of Storms
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
2 Swerve
2 Thragtusk
This is a deck I made for a friend, didn't use any Ancestral Visions, Blood Moon, or Tarmogoyf which at first looks questionable sure, but I don't think they do what this specific build wants to do. This deck, is largely a value creature deck that goes in for beats while protecting its' threats. Having the Utopia Sprawl is mostly a concession to wanting a 5th Birds of Paradise, but a card like that does not exist so Sprawl is the next best thing to me. While it can only be attached to a Forest, it can't be hit with a removal spell outside of Abrupt Decay and can do more or less the same thing for our mana fixing. Getting to 3 and 4 mana is really important, so a 5th mana dork is best. Savage Knuckleblade and Bounding Krasis are both awesome creatures, one giving you an efficient and fast clock while the other allows you to have countermagic up before being able to cast it on their turn.
A 2/2 split of Cryptic Command and Mystic Snake gives you two different types of utility, and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker on a Snake is no joke. Bounding Krasis is a largely relevant body for 3 mana and comes with flash, while also giving you an instant win combo with Kiki. Thragtusk? Why not! Kiki whipes the floor against most decks with a Tusk out so that's a good inclusion I think.
As far as the Sideboard is concerned, I feel pretty good about where it's at, aside from Surrak Dragonclaw. What would be better in this spot, anything? Not 100% sure what the bad matchups would be for this deck, but I could see some number of Kitchen Finks being in the 75 as well
4 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mountain
1 Spinerock Knoll
4 Swamp
Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Instants
1 Go for the Throat
2 Doom Blade
4 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Through the Breach
2 Dark Petition
2 Despise
4 Faithless Looting
1 Flaying Tendrils
2 Magmatic Insight
2 Thoughtseize
Artifacts
2 Pentad Prism
Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Blood Moon
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Shattering Spree
2 Through the Breach
Some of the cooler card choices/interactions in the deck have to be Spinerock Knoll, Magmatic Insight+Dakmor Salvage, and Dark Petition.
1. Spinerock allows you to put a fatty down under a hideaway land (or even a removal spell can be nice), and the requirement for activation will always be fulfilled if a hit with a creature connects. Actually CASTING the creature is huge, with Emrakul specifically.
2. Magmatic Insight and Dakmor Salvage. I could also put Faithless Looting here, but you need to have one of the lands in the yard first to activate that route. With Magmatic Insight, the most important part to the card is the fact that you discard a land as an ADDITIONAL cost to cast the card. That way, you can immediately hit a dredge trigger with your magmatic insight, possibly as early as turn 1 or 2 (Spirit Guides make for some silly early plays).
3. Dark Petition. Even at 5 mana, this spell can be cast as early as turn 3 with the help of Pentad Prism and the Spirit Guides. With Spell mastery, you're instantly able to find any removal spell in the deck and cast it, find a Liliana of the Veil and cast it, or even find: A) a fatty, B) Goryo's Vengeance, or C) a discard spell. If you have 2 of the 3 parts of that combo interaction, you're going off. Spending 1 mana to either Thoughtseize or Despise yourself lets you use the 2 remaining mana to cast Goryo's to reanimate whatever you decided to grab.
Comments are welcome, and appreciated! Thanks in advance everyone. I could see either reducing the amount of Dakmors, or increasing the number of Magmatics based on how they continue to perform, but right now I think it's fine
Having said that, I don't play against much affinity, so is it worth playing any artifact hate? I feel like we can combo off fast enough before we die, but not much affinity around where I'm at to test that.
Grapeshot is also nice as you can sweep up any blockers they may have on the board, or cut your ascendancy triggers needed to win in half essentially.
I guess it really depends, sometimes generating more than 2 mana is pretty nice because then you can have some excess mana for some interaction with your opponent even if they try to kill a creature during combat or something.
Anyways, this is the list I run. Some extra ways to win with a Grapeshot and some View From Above. Faith's Shield is a great silver bullet to have, since we draw so many cards it's not too hard to find. Helps keep Ascendancy alive, or our creatures all for one mana! So good.
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
3x Mana Confluence
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
Creature (12)
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Fatestitcher
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Faithless Looting
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Glittering Wish
1x Grapeshot
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
Instant (10)
1x Anticipate
1x Faith's Shield
4x Manamorphose
2x Thought Scour
2x View from Above
Enchantment (3)
3x Jeskai Ascendancy
1x Guttural Response
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Deflecting Palm
1x Terminate
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Scarscale Ritual
3x Spellskite
1x Fiery Justice
1x Jeskai Ascendancy
1x Void Grafter
2x Wear // Tear
1x Flesh // Blood
I think I may end up doing something like
-1 Disfigure
+1 Smother/Inquisition of Kozilek (Depending on the meta I guess?)
And for the sideboard
-2 Ghost Quarter
+2 Rain of Tears
Main reason I don't play red, is because it's hard to support it in all honesty. Not only do you run so many colorless lands (Nykthos might be able to get cut, and you may not need 4 Caverns) but you really don't want to be running fetch lands at all. You already lower your life total a fair amount with your own cards as is against aggro decks, and I think fetches would put us in bolt range MUCH easier against them. For the tools you gain with red, you also get that much weaker versus certain decks :/