What combo between Ashiok and Kaya, Ozhov Usurper do you mean? Ashiok exiles the opponent's graveyard every time it mills. It seems like an anti-synergy.
It works but you have to +1 Kaya while they have cards in their graveyard then -1 Ashiok for this to work. You can only +1 Kaya if there is a card in a grave yard. That being said you can +1 targeting a card in your own grave yard then use the +5 against an opponent after milling them a couple of times.
No you don't. Kaya's +1 says "up to two cards". You can choose zero cards.
Is it possible that people are looking at this a little wrong? If played in a control shell, then it's not slammed on T6, but T8-9 with counter backup. Every time you then counter a removal spell, it gets bigger. Every time you kill another creature, it gets bigger. Every time you counter ANYTHING it gets bigger. It has the potential to take over the game pretty quickly. So, arguably, when cast at the right time, it certainly hits point 3.
So, played my Nexus control list last night, and things didn't go well. Two UR and one R matchup in 4 rounds... Conclusions I came to:
Chemister's Insight was slow, borderline bad, certainly in the Izzet and R match ups. I'm almost tempted with Discovery // Dispersal - cheap, flexible, sees three cards, and fuels Search. Down side is sorcery speed, but if we're waiting until T4 at least, chances are we can still hold up some form of counter magic.
Disdainful Stroke is bad in general. Main things that we are wanting to counter are Teferis and other walkers (so add more Negate), or large stompies (so add Essence Scatter).
Chromium is slow, but a useful wincon. The one round I didn't face an R(x) deck, I somehow managed to keep shuffling Chromium to the bottom, so had to literally empty my library to get him out.
Ritual of Soot is worth considering, but what benefit does that have over Golden Demise and/or Phyrexian Scriptures? Demise is going to be good against most of the red aggro lists, and comes out one turn sooner, and Scriptures catches more in the GB match up. Also good with Chapter 3 wiping out Undergrowth reliance.
The mana seems to be close to OK for Settle the Wreckage and/or Cleansing Nova. I ran one of each, and only once did I have to hold on to Settle for a couple of turns.
The deck needs another wincon. Pre-rotation, a couple of Gearhulks had crept in to some lists. We may want to consider a couple of copies of Thief of Sanity, Doom Whisperer, Dream Eater or similar just to get a better clock (and maybe a few more flying blockers for Drake decks). Maybe two Whisperers main, 2-3 Thieves in the side?
Not surprisingly, Arguel's Blood Fast is bad when you're all you're facing is red based decks. If your meta is predominantly Izzet and red, you can probably shave this entirely. It may also be that Thief of Sanity is better vs control anyway.
Is it worth transitioning to more of a tap-out style rather than draw-go? Our sweepers are sorcery speed, the most efficient draw spells are sorcery speed (Notion Rain, Discovery), and playing a few more creatures...
With a quite a few decks posting 5-0s or doing well in PTQs and SCG events in the past week, I grabbed all the lists and compiled an aggregate list. For those unfamiliar with this, it's basically an "average" deck list, but weighted a little differently. It's not surprising that it's a Frank Karsten method... Instead of averaging the total number of cards in a deck (e.g. deck 1 plays 4 Teferi, deck 2 plays 3 = average is 3.5 Teferi), it gives each card its own value (so in the example, you'd be getting 3 Teferi plus some other common card).
Using Evolving Wilds and Field of Ruin as fetches, the mana base gives 18.5U/17.5B/11.5W, which according to Karsten's article this week, is just enough to cover the T3 UU (18 recommended), T4 BB (16 recommended), and plenty for Teferi (10W and 10U needed). Interestingly, 12 sources is the number needed to get 90% to cast a 3CC spell, so this mana base is borderline good for a Cleansing Nova or two, and 80% for a Settle, and that's before you count the reduction from Surveil and card draw...
Has anyone thought about Dire Fleet Poisoner? It's in essence an instant that says "1B: Destroy target attacking creature without flying". Could be useful against Ferox and Tyrant, leaving Vine Mare as the only problem card, allowing us to save edicts, counters, hand disruption, and digging for Detection Tower for that...
EDIT: And for that matter, is it not worth considering Ravenous Chupacabra again? If we're thinking about more 4 mana removal, it could be worth it. Although, at that point, do we just go to including Murder?
I think we all trailed off from here with the upcoming rotation and archiving of threads. There's an Esper control thread that's sprung up in Deck Creation, so I've been hanging out in there. I've seen a couple of decks coming up, and they largely rely on Teferi and a Chromium. However, maybe a couple of Doom Whisperers might be a good plan.
You know it's good when multiple people come up with similar lists. My initial run through had Thought Erasure where Soorani has Discover // Dispersal, but I almost think the flexibility plus extra Surveils may be correct. I also have four Nexus of Fate in my list, because I've been running that for a while and it's hilarious fun. Based on the list I posted above, mine is currently -1 Teferi (I only own 3), -2 Essence Scatter, -1 Moment of Craving, +4 Nexus, plus a little different in the lands. I'm thinking of adding a second Syncopate, but not sure what to cut. My logic with cutting Essence Scatter is that if I'm surveiling/drawing early (i.e. casting Search or Discover), I'm not likely to be holding up Essence Scatters, and will be looking for removal. It might even be worth considering dropping to 5 or 6 total card draws to make room for more removals.
My mistake... Soorani was off on Radical Idea, not Chemister's Insight. I managed to get the link to work, and here's his first list. Interestingly, his mana base is only 15U/15B/8W.
I also re-read Frank Karsten's colored mana source article last night. In it, he says to "count any cheap scry [read as Surveil] cards as 0.2 sources." So, with a total of four, possibly five Surveil cards with CMC 2 in Soorani's list (Searches, Discovery, and Price of Fame if it targets a legendary), that throws one extra colored source out for a T3 UU, rounding up. However, this doesn't count for the fact that Discovery is Surveil 2 and draw one, so that's a bonus there. So, we could probably survive on 17-18 blue sources. This number obviously changes if we mainboard Thought Erasure. It's almost tempting to add it in just to further improve the mana base...
Moving up to Surveil cards costing 3 or less, we are now at ten, again not counting the Surveil 2 AND draw 2 on Notion Rain. If you count each of those separate, then you are up to the equivalent of 3-4 sources. This drops our need for BB on T4 from 18 to at least 16.
With an additional 3 CMC 4 surveil cards, this time counting Price of Fame here, then we are at 12 surveil cards that could help by T5, not counting repeated ones from a resolved Search, or a Notion Rain. That would drop the needed W sources by just over 2, so let's round that down. That means a T5 Teferi can survive on 8 white sources.
Based on my (probably incorrect) maths, I'm thinking that we should be aiming for 17-18U/16B/8W as our minimums for a mana base. I also think that 27 land isn't a bad place to start, with the ability to Surveil away, and pitch late game to Insight, it's probably better to err on the heavy side than try to force out numbers with 26 land.
I do agree with posters here that some number of Thought Erasure in the main could be correct - after all, Thoughtseize was. However, just because one was, doesn't mean the other is.
In other articles I've seen, basically the choice comes down to do you want to run WW for Settle the Wreckage or BB for Vraska's Contempt. General consensus is that Contempt is probably better, for now. A mana base as below will give 18U / 16B / 8W plus two Field of Ruin, which isn't a bad start. Yes, it's a little slow for T3 UU, T4 BB (would need 19U and 18B), so potentially one could switch out a couple of the Islands for Dimir Guildgates if things are slow enough in your meta. I'm tempted by one Arch of Orazca or Memorial to Genius as more card draw, but we'll see.
If you already have 3 Teferi, I would try to get 2x Karn first. His additional draw and win con is very strong. You also want multiple Planeswalkers if you are going to be using Nexus.
I beg to differ. The deck list is based on the ones run by Frank Lepore, Ali Aintrazi, and Seth ("Proooo-bably better known as Saffron Olive"). None of them felt the need for Karn, or any other planeswalker. The idea with this list (as opposed to the Bant Nexus lists) is to get your card advantage through Azcanta, rather than Karn. With a flipped Azcanta, you can activate main, untap with Teferi, activate again end step.
The one major update that Aintrazi makes to the list is to not run Chromium main, and reintroduce Gearhulks. A Gearhulk can block a Vine Mare, whereas Chromium can't. Here's his latest...
I'm thinking something along the lines of the PT lists, but with 4 Nexus of Fate instead of the Gearhulks. Frank Lepore also ran a main board Chromium as a win con in a couple of test matches, and that seemed to be interesting. As and when I can get my hands on a fourth Teferi, I'll probably switch that out for the Cast Down or one of the Syncopates, or meta depending, one of the Essence Scatters.
Is it going to be worth considering Diamond Mare for mirrors? I know it dies to Abrade, but if they have it, they have it. If they don't, then it may be an edge. At least it's the same mana cost as the spells that could remove it (Abrade, Strike) compared to trading down for the Fountain.
No you don't. Kaya's +1 says "up to two cards". You can choose zero cards.
1 Chromium, the Mutable
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Spells (28)
4 Chemister's Insight
4 Sinister Sabotage
3 Moment of Craving
3 Vraska's Contempt
3 Syncopate
3 Cast Down
3 Ritual of Soot
2 Essence Scatter
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Search for Azcanta
Land (27)
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Field of Ruin
4 Watery Grave
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Duress
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Invoke the Divine
1 The Eldest Reborn
2 Fungal Infection
2 Vona, Butcher of Magan
1 Moment of Craving
1 Negate
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Ritual of Soot
Using Evolving Wilds and Field of Ruin as fetches, the mana base gives 18.5U/17.5B/11.5W, which according to Karsten's article this week, is just enough to cover the T3 UU (18 recommended), T4 BB (16 recommended), and plenty for Teferi (10W and 10U needed). Interestingly, 12 sources is the number needed to get 90% to cast a 3CC spell, so this mana base is borderline good for a Cleansing Nova or two, and 80% for a Settle, and that's before you count the reduction from Surveil and card draw...
Dream Eater is the New Torrential Gearhulk. Thoughts?
EDIT: And for that matter, is it not worth considering Ravenous Chupacabra again? If we're thinking about more 4 mana removal, it could be worth it. Although, at that point, do we just go to including Murder?
I think we all trailed off from here with the upcoming rotation and archiving of threads. There's an Esper control thread that's sprung up in Deck Creation, so I've been hanging out in there. I've seen a couple of decks coming up, and they largely rely on Teferi and a Chromium. However, maybe a couple of Doom Whisperers might be a good plan.
1 Chromium, the Mutable
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Lands (27)
4 Island
1 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Field of Ruin
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Isolated Chapel
1 Memorial to Genius
4 Watery Grave
3 Cast Down
2 Chemister's Insight
4 Essence Scatter
1 Moment of Craving
1 Price of Fame
4 Sinister Sabotage
1 Syncopate
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Discovery // Dispersal
4 Notion Rain
3 Thief of Sanity
2 The Eldest Reborn
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Moment of Craving
3 Negate
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Thought Erasure
I also re-read Frank Karsten's colored mana source article last night. In it, he says to "count any cheap scry [read as Surveil] cards as 0.2 sources." So, with a total of four, possibly five Surveil cards with CMC 2 in Soorani's list (Searches, Discovery, and Price of Fame if it targets a legendary), that throws one extra colored source out for a T3 UU, rounding up. However, this doesn't count for the fact that Discovery is Surveil 2 and draw one, so that's a bonus there. So, we could probably survive on 17-18 blue sources. This number obviously changes if we mainboard Thought Erasure. It's almost tempting to add it in just to further improve the mana base...
Moving up to Surveil cards costing 3 or less, we are now at ten, again not counting the Surveil 2 AND draw 2 on Notion Rain. If you count each of those separate, then you are up to the equivalent of 3-4 sources. This drops our need for BB on T4 from 18 to at least 16.
With an additional 3 CMC 4 surveil cards, this time counting Price of Fame here, then we are at 12 surveil cards that could help by T5, not counting repeated ones from a resolved Search, or a Notion Rain. That would drop the needed W sources by just over 2, so let's round that down. That means a T5 Teferi can survive on 8 white sources.
Based on my (probably incorrect) maths, I'm thinking that we should be aiming for 17-18U/16B/8W as our minimums for a mana base. I also think that 27 land isn't a bad place to start, with the ability to Surveil away, and pitch late game to Insight, it's probably better to err on the heavy side than try to force out numbers with 26 land.
I do agree with posters here that some number of Thought Erasure in the main could be correct - after all, Thoughtseize was. However, just because one was, doesn't mean the other is.
In other articles I've seen, basically the choice comes down to do you want to run WW for Settle the Wreckage or BB for Vraska's Contempt. General consensus is that Contempt is probably better, for now. A mana base as below will give 18U / 16B / 8W plus two Field of Ruin, which isn't a bad start. Yes, it's a little slow for T3 UU, T4 BB (would need 19U and 18B), so potentially one could switch out a couple of the Islands for Dimir Guildgates if things are slow enough in your meta. I'm tempted by one Arch of Orazca or Memorial to Genius as more card draw, but we'll see.
Finally, what are thoughts on Etrata, the Silencer is as an alternate win con?
And to subscribe to a thread, click the Tools button above the first thread, then hit "subscribe".
The one major update that Aintrazi makes to the list is to not run Chromium main, and reintroduce Gearhulks. A Gearhulk can block a Vine Mare, whereas Chromium can't. Here's his latest...
2 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Instants (22)
1 Commit // Memory
1 Disallow
2 Essence Scatter
2 Settle the Wreckage
4 Fatal Push
4 Glimmer of Genius
4 Nexus of Fate
4 Vraska's Contempt
Sorceries (1)
1 Fumigate
1 Seal Away
2 Search for Azcanta
Lands (28)
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Aether Hub
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Irrigated Farmland
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Chromium, the Mutable
1 Cast Out
4 Negate
1 Profane Procession
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Essence Extraction
1 Sanguine Sacrament
1 Fumigate
1 Chromium, the Mutable
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Spells (24)
4 Fatal Push
2 Syncopate
1 Cast Down
3 Essence Scatter
4 Disallow
1 Forsake the Worldly
4 Glimmer of Genius
4 Vraska's Contempt
4 Nexus of Fate
2 Search for Azcanta
Lands (27)
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
1 Field of Ruin
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Irrigated Farmland
4 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Swamp