A Death Cloud list just went up on Goldfish that's pretty neat. Jadelight Ranger + 4 Liliana the Last Hope is pretty interesting, as is Bitterblossom. It's definitely too late for me to change up what I'm playing this weekend, but I may give this list a try afterwards.
I was looking at your titan cloud list and I noticed how the triple black and double green adding blue would cause some serious rework on the mana base. with treetop village not fetchable i feel it could be replaced with lumbering falls losing trample to hexproof and maybe even stopping opposing ghost quarter, molten rain fx.
the tiny Kiora although not bolt proof, does have the coiling oracle fx built in, which is another card you could look at similar to growth spiral.
Yeah, the mana would have to completely change which would be a serious drawback, because the deck doesn’t care about Blood Moon really, and adding a 3rd color would make Blood Moon MUCH better against me. And that’s currently one of my favorite aspects of the deck, that it’s not very easy to “hate” out. I may put some effort into it at some point, but for now I really enjoy the way it’s running.
I do like the thought of Growth Spiral and Coiling Oracle in a “Big Sultai” type build though, without Death Cloud. Not sure what the payoffs are yet, but I’ve been rattling that idea around in my head for a while.
I’ve been going back and forth on a lot of different aspects of the deck, but I think this is 95% of the main and side I want to run next weekend at SCG Cleveland.
I’ve played variants that are super heavy on Scooze and Kalitas, trying to have strong game against Phoenix and Dredge in game 1. I’ve also tested traditional builds that are heavy on Finks and Thragtusk, that are more all-In on resolving Cloud and leaving bodies behind afterwards.
Ultimately, I didn’t really like either of these. Scooze (surprisingly) underwhelmed me against a lot of the current meta, as did Finks and Thragtusk. I've always loved Scooze in traditional Rock decks and in Sultai, but it just doesn't feel as effective or impactful here. I went back to the Primeval Titan + Tireless Tracker build that focused on synergy with the ramp already built into the deck, and the list started to make sense again.
Curious to hear some thoughts on the build before my final week of testing and if anyone has any suggestions.
I keep thinking about that shell though and how a very early Death Cloud with borderposts on the battlefield would really set the opponent back for pretty much any deck they are playing. Any thoughts on how this janky idea could be put to the test?
Not sure, I've never really thought about Devotion as a mechanic to pair with Death Cloud, but I'd assume you want cards like Phyrexian Arena that would stick around after and provide 2 BB. Not sure that the borderposts offer enough, but I could be wrong. Maybe Phyrexian Obliterator has a home there?
Definitely agree that we can have some awkward draws with too many Death Clouds. I originally started on 4 but settled on 3 as the sweet spot and haven't been disappointed.
I see you included 3 Assassin's Trophy in your maindeck when you were theory crafting - do you think its versatility outweighs its downside of ramping our opponent and making our Clouds slightly worse? I've been struggling to answer that question as I've been playtesting.
I think the answer might be that its worth playing, but we need to make sure we include enough support cards around it to make sure we still stay ahead, like Sakura-Tribe Elder, Search for Tomorrow, Courser of Kruphix, Nissa, Vastwood Seer, etc. So if you're all-in on 8+ ramp spells, we can negate the downside of it, but if you're on the more controlling build that runs half that, maybe it's not as good? Thoughts?
Sultai Reclamation took 39th at the latest Open and got some coverage too. I can't post a direct link to it at work, but I will later. Deck looks incredibly fun (and challenging) to pilot.
I have to say, I love how straightforward and no-nonsense that manabase is. Plus, all those shocklands work great with Reclamation.
Kiora? That's funny, I didn't think either of the Kiora planeswalkers were fast or good enough for modern. What makes you want to bring her in? (just curious)
I don't think either one of them is generically strong enough to see regular play since they aren't good enough for our "good stuff" deck, just fringe ideas really. I'm somewhat interested in testing Kiora, Master of the Depths next to Garruk Wildspeaker and Utopia Sprawl in a Big Sultai deck and see what happens.
How are you all liking Sultai compared to The Rock right now? Sultai looks like a lot of fun to play, but just green/black looks a bit more consistent.
As much as I love BUG, I’m currently on GB right now. I can’t bring myself to play a deck that relies so heavily on the yard at the moment. I’m on more of a Big GB deck though, so it’s not really the same thing. It is nice not being so easily hated out though.
If I were to go back to BUG in the near future, I’d probably try something similar to what I’m playing now, but with Growth Spiral, Nissa Steward of the Elements, Kiora, maybe a big blue finisher alongside Primeval Titan.
Here's the deck I'm currently running. I’m still missing one Catacomb, but it shouldn’t make much of a difference - we have near perfect mana regardless.
As I said in my last post, the base of the list is from mcnealstash on the previous page. It differs in a few creatures and planeswalkers, namely Kalitas, Finks, Last Hope and Garruk.
I’m still in the early testing phases so I’m sure numbers will change, but I will say the Primeval Titan innovation mcnealstash proposed is incredibly powerful and by far my favorite part of the deck.
The only card I’m really unsure of at the moment is Garruk Wildspeaker. I’ve played Cloud decks before, so I understand his role pre and post Cloud, but most of the time I’m disappointed when I see him and he doesn’t have the impact I’m looking for, and I think mcnealstash was right to cut him. Any ideas of another creature or walker that could occupy the 4 mana slot? Maybe a full set of Kalitas is good in this meta? A rock deck recently went 5-0 with the same idea, and he has great synergy with Cloud.
Edit: Of course after I question Garruk, he's the lynchpin that held the deck together in a big win. I suppose another card I'm currently question is the inclusion of Finks again - I'm just not sure how well it's actually positioned in the meta, and would mainboard Scavenging Oozes be better? They're still a great threat to draw after Cloud, even though they don't survive like Finks. Thoughts?
Is anyone still playing and tuning Death Cloud lists? The release of Growth Spiral got my gears spinning on a potential blue splash list and other cards we could include. Maybe Coiling Oracle and Nissa, Steward of Elements?
The challenge is that dealthcloud requires 3 black mana. Playing nissa for a green and a blue, and then Hitting 3 black the next turn doesnt seem likely.
Maybe. I think the mana is good enough in modern that we could make it happen, especially with the various ways we can sculpt our land needs in the deck. It doesn't seem any less reasonable than Grixis Control decks playing Cryptic Command alongside of Terminate and Anger of the Gods. I've played Cloud lists with a blue splash before and the mana was fine. The issue was more with the reason you'd be splashing blue, and there weren't many at the time. I'm mostly a BUG player so naturally I wanted to try BUG Cloud.
And maybe U still doesn't offer enough of a draw to try it out, but I figured I'd throw it out there since the thread hasn't seen any action in quite some time.
Still curious to see if anyone is playing any lists though - I'm currently on a list very similar to what mcnealstash was trying a couple pages back and I'm really enjoying it. The addition of Primeval Titan and Tireless Tracker gives the deck some angles of attack outside of just resolving a big Cloud.
4 Arbor Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grave Titan
2 Jadelight Ranger
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Thragtusk
4 Tireless Tracker
Planeswalkers // 8
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Liliana, the Last Hope
Instant // 4
1 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Death Cloud
3 Maelstrom Pulse
Enchantment // 5
1 Bitterblossom
4 Utopia Sprawl
Lands // 22
2 Field of Ruin
7 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Damping Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Extirpate
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Cut
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Trinisphere
I do like the thought of Growth Spiral and Coiling Oracle in a “Big Sultai” type build though, without Death Cloud. Not sure what the payoffs are yet, but I’ve been rattling that idea around in my head for a while.
4x Field of Ruin
4x Forest
4x Swamp
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Treetop Village
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Twlight Mire
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant (6)
3x Fatal Push
3x Assassin’s Trophy
Creature (15)
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3x Tireless Tracker
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3x Primeval Titan
1x Grave Titan
4x Search for Tomorrow
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Damnation
3x Death Cloud
Planeswalker (4)
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Nissa, Vital Force
3x Duress
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Deathmark
1x Collective Brutality
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Damping Sphere
1x Unravel the Aether
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Raking Canopy
I’ve played variants that are super heavy on Scooze and Kalitas, trying to have strong game against Phoenix and Dredge in game 1. I’ve also tested traditional builds that are heavy on Finks and Thragtusk, that are more all-In on resolving Cloud and leaving bodies behind afterwards.
Ultimately, I didn’t really like either of these. Scooze (surprisingly) underwhelmed me against a lot of the current meta, as did Finks and Thragtusk. I've always loved Scooze in traditional Rock decks and in Sultai, but it just doesn't feel as effective or impactful here. I went back to the Primeval Titan + Tireless Tracker build that focused on synergy with the ramp already built into the deck, and the list started to make sense again.
Curious to hear some thoughts on the build before my final week of testing and if anyone has any suggestions.
Here's the link to the stream: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/400775347
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Creature (13)
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Solemn Simulacrum
Sorcery (7)
3 Damnation
4 Death Cloud
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Guardian Idol
3 Mind Stone
Land (24)
3 Gemstone Caverns
4 Mutavault
15 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Damnation
3 Collective Brutality
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thought-Knot Seer
I see you included 3 Assassin's Trophy in your maindeck when you were theory crafting - do you think its versatility outweighs its downside of ramping our opponent and making our Clouds slightly worse? I've been struggling to answer that question as I've been playtesting.
I think the answer might be that its worth playing, but we need to make sure we include enough support cards around it to make sure we still stay ahead, like Sakura-Tribe Elder, Search for Tomorrow, Courser of Kruphix, Nissa, Vastwood Seer, etc. So if you're all-in on 8+ ramp spells, we can negate the downside of it, but if you're on the more controlling build that runs half that, maybe it's not as good? Thoughts?
I have to say, I love how straightforward and no-nonsense that manabase is. Plus, all those shocklands work great with Reclamation.
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/127742
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Lands (24)
1 Forest
3 Island
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Watery Grave
4 Wilderness Reclamation
4 Assassin's Trophy
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Cryptic Command
4 Growth Spiral
4 Hieroglyphic Illumination
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Nexus of Fate
2 Pulse of Murasa
4 Remand
2 Torrential Gearhulk
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Crypt Incursion
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Devour Flesh
2 Fatal Push
2 Life Goes On
2 Surgical Extraction
If I were to go back to BUG in the near future, I’d probably try something similar to what I’m playing now, but with Growth Spiral, Nissa Steward of the Elements, Kiora, maybe a big blue finisher alongside Primeval Titan.
As I said in my last post, the base of the list is from mcnealstash on the previous page. It differs in a few creatures and planeswalkers, namely Kalitas, Finks, Last Hope and Garruk.
I’m still in the early testing phases so I’m sure numbers will change, but I will say the Primeval Titan innovation mcnealstash proposed is incredibly powerful and by far my favorite part of the deck.
The only card I’m really unsure of at the moment is Garruk Wildspeaker. I’ve played Cloud decks before, so I understand his role pre and post Cloud, but most of the time I’m disappointed when I see him and he doesn’t have the impact I’m looking for, and I think mcnealstash was right to cut him. Any ideas of another creature or walker that could occupy the 4 mana slot? Maybe a full set of Kalitas is good in this meta? A rock deck recently went 5-0 with the same idea, and he has great synergy with Cloud.
Edit: Of course after I question Garruk, he's the lynchpin that held the deck together in a big win. I suppose another card I'm currently question is the inclusion of Finks again - I'm just not sure how well it's actually positioned in the meta, and would mainboard Scavenging Oozes be better? They're still a great threat to draw after Cloud, even though they don't survive like Finks. Thoughts?
4x Field of Ruin
4x Forest
4x Swamp
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Woodland Cemetery
4x Treetop Village
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant (6)
4x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Kitchen Finks
3x Tireless Tracker
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Primeval Titan
Sorcery (9)
4x Search for Tomorrow
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Death Cloud
Planeswalker (4)
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Collective Brutality
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Damnation
1x Drown in Sorrow
3x Duress
4x Ravenous Trap
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Field of Ruin
4x Forest
4x Swamp
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Woodland Cemetery
4x Treetop Village
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant (6)
4x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Tireless Tracker
3x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Primeval Titan
Sorcery (10)
4x Search for Tomorrow
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Death Cloud
1x Damnation
Planeswalker (2)
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Duress
3x Ravenous Trap
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Yahenni’s Expertise
2x Creeping Corrosion
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
And maybe U still doesn't offer enough of a draw to try it out, but I figured I'd throw it out there since the thread hasn't seen any action in quite some time.
Still curious to see if anyone is playing any lists though - I'm currently on a list very similar to what mcnealstash was trying a couple pages back and I'm really enjoying it. The addition of Primeval Titan and Tireless Tracker gives the deck some angles of attack outside of just resolving a big Cloud.