Just curious what others are thinking as far as the new direction for this deck? I feel like JUND might be a good option now as Abrade is likely to make a maindeck appearance which would greatly hinder the "pummeler, got you" plan. Thoughts?
I was thinking of moving away from Pumeller and (splashing black) throwing in Ammit Eternal (3 mana, 5/5, Afflict 3) as it's replacement. I think I would probably move away from Larger than Life as a result, though I would probably increase the number of Rush of Adrenaline due to those pesky Monument and token decks floating around.
I've tested a few games where you have moments like:
Ammit Eternal attacks, Opponent blocks with something, Afflict Triggers... take 3... pump Ammit Eternal with Rush (or any other trample spell) so Opponent takes another x from Trample then Fling... Total dmg = 10+, which easily achieves a T4 Kill. (Bit of magic christmasland)
Ammit also avoids alot of the common removal (Abrade, Magma Spray). Short of Grasp of Darkness and Harnssed lightning for 4, i'd say it's pretty resiliant...
Also, as removal is abundent, I've also thought of using an unorthodox card "Rush of Vitality" as Blossoming Defense 5-8 which also shores up mirrors/racing (lifelink).
My current thoughts on the list:
4 Voltaic Brawler
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Longtusk Cub
4 Bristling Hydra
4 Ammit Eternal
4 Blossoming Defense
4 Attune to Aether
4 Adrenaline Rush
2 Fling
1 Arlin Kord
2 Rush of Vitality
2 Invigorated Rampage
1 Abrade
Guess Rhinos can't cut it anymore - tried the blue splash but it just felt awkward the entire night. I missed having the curve into Wingmate and the extra Dromoka Commands.
Went 1-3.
Rd 1 - Lost vs Atarka Red Tokens (Kev)
Kept a decent curved hand, but seems like he had an answer to everything I played.
G1
He won the die roll. He went:
T1 Fetch,Mountain,Swiftie
T2 Fetch, Mountain, Fiery impulse my Warden and Titan Strength
T3 Fetch, Cinderglade, Fiery Impulse my Advocate, Titan Strength, Become Immense
G2 - Board in all my Red Hate
I curve out Warden, Pump, Fenza, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino For the Game
G3 is when i find out he was actually on Tokens... I mull to 6 and kept 2x advocate and 2 ultimate price 2 land hand but didn't help vs the army..
Swiftspear, Dragon Fodder, Hordling Outburst, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar x 3
He then roasted and impulsed his way through my blockers and took the game in short order. Needless to say I was tilted by this.
Rd 2 - Lost vs Grixis Control (Robbie)
G1 - Nothing to say here, but he basically owned my curve being on the play with an answer to every single thing...T1 Warden met by an impulse, T2 met by horrible awry, T3 Fenza met by Roast, T4 Disdainful stroked my Rhino. Then just slammed a Chandra on board to finish me super fast.
G2 - Board in 2 pitiless horde, 2 dispel and board out the silkwraps and the D.commands
This time, I curve out and he had no answer, my T4 play was a dashed pitiless horde which basically sealed the deal since he had d.stroke for rhino instead.
G3 - Get wreckt by him... had him at 2 with Fenza, Warden and Sylvan Advocate on board, he top decks chandra wipes the board, then everything I played got answered... needed a rhino, and never saw any..
Rd 3 - Lost vs Mono Blue Eldrazi (Trev)
At this point I was just straightup frustrated and this match should have been a win for me and I missed lethal G3 to win the game. I basically didn't push my agression when I had him at 5 (Rhino on board, with Gideon emblem and mana for double pitiless horde) but he had a Reality Smasher, Matte Reshaper, Thoughtknot Sky Spawner and Infaltrator. He had tomb of the spirit dragon and 2 mana open for the option to gain 6 life, and I decided to sit back vs attacking and forcing blocks to set myself up for a better position (still had 2 Shamblign vents with +1/+1 each from previous Fenza). I think also failure to play my 2nd Rhino T5 instead of attacking with the Vent was probably another problem (it got TKS'd away)...I decided to play the last round anyways just to enjoy playing magic.
Rd 4 - Won vs 4CRally
Oddly enough, the only match where I didn't feel pressured as much as I thought. But then again, I had 2 dispel, 2 hallowed moonlight and 2 stubborn denail all at the right time and I just handily won this. Without breaking a threat.
Maybe I played better, or maybe I just lucked out with my draws.
All in all, I think I'd have had a better night if I dropped the blue, reflector mage felt like a dead draw whenever I saw him, and same with the denial - I'd probably would have liked to see more removal or something. Gonna traditional abzan for the last PPTQ Sunday - I think I'll consider Pulse of Murasa in the SB or 1 in the MB - I think it might be worth something there. Last Hurrah for the Mighty Siege Rhino
This is just a fun deck to play, didn't know there was a thread...
Just jamming games with my friends so take it with a grain of salt.
Running Saffron's original list cept: -1 Safehold elite,-1 Anafenza, -1 Return to the ranks, +1 Grim Haruspex, +1 Fleshbag Maruder, +1 Melira
Mono G Stompy - Even/slightly favorable, post board heavily in our favor. We just chump for days then straight up rally to win the game since they have little to no interaction (outside of dismember). You can go for the combo or just drain for value - either way it's not bad at all. On the rare occasion, I have Melira and Anafenza and I can just infinite bolster and swing.
UR Moon - this was kinda awkd when you get T3 bloodmooned - usually we fetch for shocks T1 and T2. But once you play around it you usually bait out a counter (via CC) then rally . I'd say 50/50 pre and post
Eldrazi - if they get the nuts, it's gg for most ppl. Most Aggro variants have dropped the 4x relics mb and maybe have 1 or 2 in the sb, but if it's not that, we can usually drain them for the victory. Postboard I bust in 4 Thoughtseizes and make sure I always have one opening hand to take their Thought-knot or reality smasher. after that, usually not bad and we can grind em out. I'd say 40/60 in their favor though just based on sample size.
Overall fun deck to play, but very meta (as is all graveyard strats).
8 Person Game day (Vday) - you'll see my punt in the finals
R1 - Percy on UR Prowess
*Win Dice Roll* *Play*
G1 - Nothing to see here, Curve out Warden, Advocate, Fenza, Dromoka's command, Silk Wrap and double Rhino . See Storm Chaser Mage, Swift Spear and Elusive Spellfist - Definitely on Prowess
In: 3x Surge of Righteouness, 1x Arashin Cleric, 2 Ultimate Price, 2 Dispel, 1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Out: 2x Abzan Charm, 3x Warden, 2 Dromoka's Command, 2x Gideon 1x Den Protector
G2 - Mull to six, but keep a hand of Heath, Foothills and Strand, 2 Surge of Righteousness and 1 Ultimate Price. Scry Arashin Cleric on top.
Needless to say I won this game single handily despite his best efforts to play around removal. I drew the rest of my removal and started land rhino after rhino and denial'd his roasts. He conceded around T7/T8.
(2-0)
R2 - VJ - Atarka(jund) Red?
Another guy I play with. I thought he was on Rally, but he has heavy devotion to Red (Chandra)
*Win Dice Roll* Play
G1 - Quick and Easy with a perfect curve: Warden, Advocate, Fenza, Rhino, Sorin
G2 - Similar to how my UR Prowess game played out and just ate him with removal. No contest
R3 - Matt on Bant Ramp (home brew)
*Win Dice Roll* *Play*
One of the guys I play with at the store - so I knew he was on some form of ramp today.
G1 - Kept a mediocre hand with 3 Den Protectors and 2 Abzan Charms. Wall of Resurgence and Jaddi Offshoot don't block well against 3 den protectors beating down. Easy win
G2: Kept a sketchy hand but saw 3 lands in sequence, Abzan Charm, Anafenza, Siege Rhino and Self Inflicted Wound and kept it.
Turns out that was a bad idea. He went T2 Rattleclaw into T3 Explosive Vegetation, T4 Explosive Vegetation, Rattleclaw, T5 Part The Waterveil into T6 Ulamog. To add insult to injury, he Part The Waterveil again just because he could. I slow hand punish...
G3. Another Den Protector beating. GG
At this point I was stoked since the store owner decided on three rounds cut to Top 4 but a raging migraine was creeping up. I should have took a break and grabbed a lot of water - but I didn't and that was probably a mistake.
Semi - Final - Paul on RB Dragons
Random guy who thought our store was an easy game day win
*Win Dice Roll* (Loving my luck)
G1 - Curved out beautifully, Started with Sylvan Advocate ->Reflector Mage-> Rhino and Sorin. That was game. He durdled for 4 turns and didn't draw any removal 2 Flamewakes Phoenix and 3 lands, Fiery Impulse and Storm's fury. Turns Reflector mage on his Flamewake phoenix really sucked for him. I felt so dirty for doing that..
In: see red deck match ups, no change in plans
G2 - This was a fun game,we just traded removal spells on each other but Sorin is a beast in this match up and manlands seal the deal.
Finals! (VJ from R2) Apparently, he didn't drop a game afterwards.
Not sure, I thought since I was higher ranked I'd get to go first which would be an advantage ofc vs his red deck... but store owner just said rolled for it and VJ quickly agreed (Obviously would have the edge) and my luck ran out (he won the roll)...And this is where I punted.
G1 - Not sure what I was thinking, kept a Dromoka command, Reflector mage, Anafenza and stubborn denial and 3 lands(Strand,Foothills, Shambling Vent). Needless to say, and and roasted in sequence and I only drew lands thereafter. That and I botched my land sequencing and Fetched for Sunken Hollow T1 instead of just curving out, leaving me with no T3 play and him beating down with swiftspears and Zurgo (no pumps or tokens), tapping out for Fenza had me roasted and he titan strengthed to seal my fate.
G2 - boarded in some of my wonderful red hate but opted to drop the den protectors instead. Kept a 7 hand of Warden, 2 Dispel, 1 Dromoka's Command, 3 optimal fetches. Not sure if I played optimally but I figured I should play Warden on 2 instead of T1 to avoid a pulse or slash blowout. Lo and behold, I play T2 warden with Dispel backup and my Opp tried to impulse it for a tempo swing on his turn for his Swiftie only to get dispelled. I untap and dromoka command his lonely Swiftie. He misses his land drop drops a mini Zurgo and tries to wildslash only to yet again face dispel. I drew perfectly from then with another Dromoka command into Abzan charm. Warden was out of roast range and I just took time to make him into a ridiculous beater 13/13 lifelink trample. He was not very happy.
Out - Warden, In Den protector (Stupid bad in my opinion)
G3 - ah, and now this is where I goofed. For whatever reason, I stupidly keep a removal-less hand and a curve of Den Protector, Anafenza, Sorin, 2 fetches 1 shambling and Dispel. In hindsight I should have mulled for at least 2 or 3 removal but c'est la vie...
This time I sequenced approprately, fetch Plains, Fetch Forest, Fetch Sunken Hollow. But him being on the play wrecked me as he T1 Swiftie, I played tapped vent then he T2 Double Titan strength me... dealing 9 putting me at 10 at the end of his T2!!! I believe that would be considered the nuts? I don't think i could have dealt with that outside of a T1 warden?
T2 I play Den Protector out of desperation seeing as I drew no removal spell and drew my 4th land, putting me at 9 from the fetch.
He misses his land drop and Roasts my den protector and puts me to 7 with Taylor Swiftie.
T3 I end up drawing an Abzan Charm, play fetch and play Anafenza, leaving me at 6. Figuring he can't possibly have a Roast, as he should only have 2 copies (if he net decked). and Abzan Charm probably would be on his mind if he saw untapped mana
He found his land and roasts my Anafenza and swings, putting me at 4 but had no other follow up spell. At this point, I know I'm fairly boned unless I draw my cleric or maybe a Surge of Righteousness.
T4 I drew... my second copy of Sorin and made a vampire token after fetching down to 3. I figure if I can somehow survive this turn I might be able to still have a chance...
On his Turn proceeds to impulse my token, Play Dragon Fodder and swing for lethal off a +2 Prowessed Swiftie.
I was salty, cuz I kept a mediocre hand stupidly and he just had the nuts to deal 9 on T2. But I shook his hand and congratulted him. After a brief chat with him, he told me he snapkeeped that one creature, 2 lands 2 titan strength and 2 roast hand... , if I had removal at any point, he'd have lost since he top decked the Dragon Fodder and he said he had a gut feeling this was a winning hand. Made me even more salty cuz it felt like a bit of a brag but hey, a loss is a loss and I know it was clearly my judgmental error.
I actually realized that after packing up to leave I had dropped one of my maindeck cards (stubborn denial) and I was actually playing 59 cards in the finals... Not sure if that would make a difference..
Conclusion:
Sylvan Advocate feels like a boss, dodging impulses and wildslashes and is still a good topdeck...especially with manlands in play!
Reflector mage, pretty darn good, but didn't get a feel, i'm sure it wrecks teh mirror more...
Stubborn denial main feels good too, especially if you have a chance to say surprise to a kill spell people don't expect. Though this is more of a later game application, since I only have 2 blue sources and have to fetch for them. It was decent enough for me though I might swap a foothill for a delta to increase the probability to fetch for it.
No offense meant to you @hoser2, after all we just theory crafting and we offering our experiences for Umex to make a decision at the end of the day.
Permission spells (Stubborn Denial, Dispel, Disdainful Stroke) certainly make Rally and Ramp match-ups much easier to take down - and I totally agree there is more than one way to do it and the reason I like playing this archetype is it's flexible to adjust accordingly.
As far as Rally goes, I am inclined to agree that it's a pretty tough match-up, especially for traditional abzan. I did enjoy playing [[Tainted remedy]] in the sideboard just for funsies, though that was just a for fun match-up in some of my testing. [[Tainted Remedy]] is, imo, another random, but fun way to completely ruin their game plan since they can't win through Cutthroat triggers, assuming we keep our own life total higher than theirs. Again, test and see what works for you.
Haven't seen any CoCo decks recently, so can't comment.
And for Ramp, I didn't think it was too bad if you played [[Pitiless Horde]] and [[Transgress the Mind]] and[[Duresses]]. Assuming you kept a reasonable hand to add pressure, I thought the match-up was even if not favorable.
Currently testing a variant of Abzan Blue, and it's been fun tempo play with [[Reflector Mage]] and [[Stubborn Denial]]!
@hoser2
The biggest problem with flaying is the double black. Unless you rework your mana base to accommodate a T3 double black (via fetches and basics), the flaying tendrils are worse off since you probably wont get to cast it when you really need it at that point. Ultimate price against aggro works quite well, but it's your call at the end of the day.
Oh, and I would probably drop 1x Gideon in favor of 1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor. Most people don't like it but to me it has been great versus a variety of decks and is a nightmare for red decks.
My theory for less flaying and the 4x Surge - I just need to buy enough time to drop my Fenza, Rhinos, and overall stabilize without being mana screwed for the boardwipe... but I mean, I also run 2 x Sorin in my 75, so my strategy might be different that OP. OP could also consider going to 2 x Arashin Cleric and 4 Surge of Righteousness. There's almost no way for a red deck to punch through that much lifegain...
I mean, worse comes to worse, I've been toying with [[boiling earth]] as a cheap answer to tokens lol but that's just *****s and giggles.
Played this rather stock list on gameday, went 3-2, so I was quite dissapointed. The "mono black" sideboard gives me trouble, the manabase can't support so much black, anyone got advice on what to change? I am seriously considering splashing the blue, but even these 3 colors play tricks on me.
Also one crazy idea: could the abzan blue list run a number of Woodland Wanderers instead of Gideons? The planeswalker has been pretty meh for me, I constantly side it out (I got a lot of aggro in my meta).
[Umex's deck]Creature (20)
4x Anafenza, the Foremost
2x Den Protector
4x Siege Rhino
4x Sylvan Advocate
4x Warden of the First Tree
2x Wingmate Roc
Sideboard (15)
3x Duress
3x Flaying Tendrils
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Painful Truths
2x Pitiless Horde
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Ultimate Price
[/deck]
Not a pro by any means, so take it with a grain of salt - I think your sideboard needs a rework, and since your meta is predominantly aggro (red decks), my suggestion:
-2 Ob Nixilis Reignited, -1 Flaying Tendrils, -3 Duress, +4 Surge of Righteousness, + 2 Ultimate Price. I'm not sure when you would want Ob Nixislis...
Surge of Righteousness, is in my opinion, criminally underplayed. Whether you face Atarka decks, or Prowess Decks it is very relevant as the destroy + incidental lifegain is insane!
Surge also hits things like Anafenza and Rhinos and Ayli if that's of any concern.
Also, what is your sideboard plan like when faced against aggro, maybe if you post an example that would help us discern whether you are doing it correctly... Also, how you sideboard depends on the play or draw.
I'm just curious, why has this deck moved away from counter spells to kill spells and grind value(rise/fall)? Notably I'm noticing a lack of spell pierce/spell snares~ can someone shed some light? I am still on the list without rise and fall and haven't tested it's use yet.
Just an opinion based on 20 games vs my 2 friends (RG Tron and UW/U Tron), I've found that if I can stick a delver T1//T2 Tasigur and hold up Mana leak/deprive/spell pierce/spell snare, my games vs tron tend to go quite well even if they attempt to run a T3 Karn or Wurmcoil. Typically a close 50/50 or slightly in our favor... but that just could be from limited testing.
Usually if they know they have to respect a M.leak or pierce, this will delay the 1-2 turns we need to clinch the game with our early threats. I'm not sure how if that would workout if we're playing heavier on the terminates and rise//fall package
Also, regarding the burn matches, it seems the lists running more terminates and rise//fall looks to concede G1 and hope to take it G2. Thoughts on this?My experience is that I've found the counter heavy (8+ counters) tend to lead to a 50/50 match up and in our favor G2. I used to run more terminates before the 2/2 split of pierce and snare inclusion and my burn matchup felt impossible to win G1.
But I guess the list changes slightly according to your meta? Burn is always around in mine.
I've tried Abbot and I find him lackluster in my delver list (counterspell heavy) and I think he functions better in blue jund/jund or Chapin's Temur Tempo. Obviously, my two cents...
I really don't think 4 Remand is the way to go. Also, Shattering Spree is definitely not the best Affinity hate card for us.
What card(s) would you recommend instead?
Remand is typically a "time walk" type card and is more useful for decks that have a win condition that needs assembling (aka tron, twin etc).
Delver plays as a tempo deck and looks for disrupting type of cards for a cheap cost (combinations of spell pierce, spell snare, mana leak and dispel) and can run hard counters such as deprive. Deprive is an interesting card as it does set you back a turn in terms of landdrops but seeing as delver can operate on a low land count (2 is usually sufficient to do most things), it is playable as 1 or 2 of so the tempo is not often a huge set back.
As far as the affinity hate, kolaghan's command is amazing as it does represent a 2 for 1 quite often. Depending on how you actually build your deck (lean towards control via more killspells or tempo via more counterspells), you may choose to run ancient grudge (with possibly a breeding pool) and vandalblast or you can go all in with shatterstorm.
Personally, in my meta I don't really come across affinity all that much so I only run 2 kommands main and 1 rakdos charm from the side. Combinations of spell pierces, snares, forked bolts have worked wonders for me in most of my "artifact" related matches (a la tron and lantern control).
I really like the IOK inclusion. I've been toying with the same thoughts as well! I was thinking that I don't want to include mediocre cards such as SWERVE or REDIRECT just to deal with ABRUPT DECAY since they don't really serve any other purpose. I know that discard effects are tempo negative but I think this type of proactive play works in our favor for the JUNK matchups.
What are your thoughts on including more than 2? Several of my friends who play JUNK and JUND swear by the "4 or nothing" rule for thoughtseize and IOK.
really silly questions - but can someone explain to me why spell snare is so good? I feel like 2cmc is so restrictive...(I get that its 1 mana hard counter and we thrive on efficiency) and it feels dead to me more than half the time
R1 Jund (2-0)
G1, T1 Delver backed with 1 spell snare (for his goyf) 3 lightning bolts and a Snapcaster won this easily since he had Bob ping him for 4 twice. Easy Match
G2, Wasn't sure how this match up should go, but i know he has LOTV. - 2 electrolyze + 2 negate - 1 forked Bolt + 1 Ashiok
T1 Delver again and holding up counter magic for his T2 goyf and T3 lilianna quickly seals the game. His luck with Dark confidant was not good (probably too high a curve), but inflicting 8 damage in 2 turns lets my delver win quite easily.
R2 BW tokens (0-2)
-Lost badly against this matchup. Both games he just too much for me to deal with. He had the nuts draw while I struggled with bad hands. Despite T2 Tasigur and T4 Angler, I just couldn't get through.. coupled with Sorin SV Not a good match I think. Maybe a Virulent Plague in the sideboard might help...
R3 Burn (2-1)
Played this vs a friend. Since I knew his play style it was much easier to deal with overall.
G1 - close game where I kept 1 Delver, 2 lands and 1 Bolt and all counter spells (leak, deprive, flashfreeze) - Delver flipped for me and I basically raced him down to 3, and top decked a bolt FtW
G2- I know from experience that he would board in destructive revelries for my dragon claws,and for some reason my area of LGS all did not have Death's shadows in stock... n e ways, I purposely did not bring claws to make sure he had dead card sin hand. Unfortunately mulled to 5 and he just layed down the burn for a T4 win.
G3 - Drew a lot better, resolved a T1 Delver flipping T2. Dispel and negates and snares were all stars this game and he just ran out of gas. Incredibly close though as I was within bolt range when I Bolt, Snap Bolt for the win.
R4 Abzan Leige with souls (1-2)
Won G1 off delver and him not being able to find AD (countered his path).
G2 - just wrecked me with souls and gavony township and smiters.
G3 - mulled to 5 and couldn't stop his value onslaught of voice, smiter, rhino...
Didn't test Thassa or Temur Battle Rage sadly. tough tough matchups.
@spooly thanks for the input - I think it is worth testing, considering the number of counters we do run. I mean, before we discovered Death's shadow as possible sideboard tech vs burn, we devoted at least 3 slots to that matchup. So having a few for one of our bad matchups seem reasonable here too.
I'd definitely want to run more games and get more test data on it, but preliminary shows decent outputs. They either block or take the full brunt of the force, even if they double block (say double rhino), we still have the end advantage, by Kommanding back our threat.
I was thinking of moving away from Pumeller and (splashing black) throwing in Ammit Eternal (3 mana, 5/5, Afflict 3) as it's replacement. I think I would probably move away from Larger than Life as a result, though I would probably increase the number of Rush of Adrenaline due to those pesky Monument and token decks floating around.
I've tested a few games where you have moments like:
Ammit Eternal attacks, Opponent blocks with something, Afflict Triggers... take 3... pump Ammit Eternal with Rush (or any other trample spell) so Opponent takes another x from Trample then Fling... Total dmg = 10+, which easily achieves a T4 Kill. (Bit of magic christmasland)
Ammit also avoids alot of the common removal (Abrade, Magma Spray). Short of Grasp of Darkness and Harnssed lightning for 4, i'd say it's pretty resiliant...
Also, as removal is abundent, I've also thought of using an unorthodox card "Rush of Vitality" as Blossoming Defense 5-8 which also shores up mirrors/racing (lifelink).
My current thoughts on the list:
4 Voltaic Brawler
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Longtusk Cub
4 Bristling Hydra
4 Ammit Eternal
4 Blossoming Defense
4 Attune to Aether
4 Adrenaline Rush
2 Fling
1 Arlin Kord
2 Rush of Vitality
2 Invigorated Rampage
1 Abrade
4 Aether Hub
4 Game Trail
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Swmap
5 Forest
2 Mountain
SB
2 Lay Bare the Heart
4 Harnessed Lightning
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Abrade
4 Prowling Seopard
2 Appetite for the Unnatural
Went 1-3.
Rd 1 - Lost vs Atarka Red Tokens (Kev)
Kept a decent curved hand, but seems like he had an answer to everything I played.
G1
He won the die roll. He went:
T1 Fetch,Mountain,Swiftie
T2 Fetch, Mountain, Fiery impulse my Warden and Titan Strength
T3 Fetch, Cinderglade, Fiery Impulse my Advocate, Titan Strength, Become Immense
G2 - Board in all my Red Hate
I curve out Warden, Pump, Fenza, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino For the Game
G3 is when i find out he was actually on Tokens... I mull to 6 and kept 2x advocate and 2 ultimate price 2 land hand but didn't help vs the army..
Swiftspear, Dragon Fodder, Hordling Outburst, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar x 3
He then roasted and impulsed his way through my blockers and took the game in short order. Needless to say I was tilted by this.
Rd 2 - Lost vs Grixis Control (Robbie)
G1 - Nothing to say here, but he basically owned my curve being on the play with an answer to every single thing...T1 Warden met by an impulse, T2 met by horrible awry, T3 Fenza met by Roast, T4 Disdainful stroked my Rhino. Then just slammed a Chandra on board to finish me super fast.
G2 - Board in 2 pitiless horde, 2 dispel and board out the silkwraps and the D.commands
This time, I curve out and he had no answer, my T4 play was a dashed pitiless horde which basically sealed the deal since he had d.stroke for rhino instead.
G3 - Get wreckt by him... had him at 2 with Fenza, Warden and Sylvan Advocate on board, he top decks chandra wipes the board, then everything I played got answered... needed a rhino, and never saw any..
Rd 3 - Lost vs Mono Blue Eldrazi (Trev)
At this point I was just straightup frustrated and this match should have been a win for me and I missed lethal G3 to win the game. I basically didn't push my agression when I had him at 5 (Rhino on board, with Gideon emblem and mana for double pitiless horde) but he had a Reality Smasher, Matte Reshaper, Thoughtknot Sky Spawner and Infaltrator. He had tomb of the spirit dragon and 2 mana open for the option to gain 6 life, and I decided to sit back vs attacking and forcing blocks to set myself up for a better position (still had 2 Shamblign vents with +1/+1 each from previous Fenza). I think also failure to play my 2nd Rhino T5 instead of attacking with the Vent was probably another problem (it got TKS'd away)...I decided to play the last round anyways just to enjoy playing magic.
Rd 4 - Won vs 4CRally
Oddly enough, the only match where I didn't feel pressured as much as I thought. But then again, I had 2 dispel, 2 hallowed moonlight and 2 stubborn denail all at the right time and I just handily won this. Without breaking a threat.
Maybe I played better, or maybe I just lucked out with my draws.
All in all, I think I'd have had a better night if I dropped the blue, reflector mage felt like a dead draw whenever I saw him, and same with the denial - I'd probably would have liked to see more removal or something. Gonna traditional abzan for the last PPTQ Sunday - I think I'll consider Pulse of Murasa in the SB or 1 in the MB - I think it might be worth something there. Last Hurrah for the Mighty Siege Rhino
Just jamming games with my friends so take it with a grain of salt.
Running Saffron's original list cept: -1 Safehold elite,-1 Anafenza, -1 Return to the ranks, +1 Grim Haruspex, +1 Fleshbag Maruder, +1 Melira
Mono G Stompy - Even/slightly favorable, post board heavily in our favor. We just chump for days then straight up rally to win the game since they have little to no interaction (outside of dismember). You can go for the combo or just drain for value - either way it's not bad at all. On the rare occasion, I have Melira and Anafenza and I can just infinite bolster and swing.
UR Moon - this was kinda awkd when you get T3 bloodmooned - usually we fetch for shocks T1 and T2. But once you play around it you usually bait out a counter (via CC) then rally . I'd say 50/50 pre and post
Eldrazi - if they get the nuts, it's gg for most ppl. Most Aggro variants have dropped the 4x relics mb and maybe have 1 or 2 in the sb, but if it's not that, we can usually drain them for the victory. Postboard I bust in 4 Thoughtseizes and make sure I always have one opening hand to take their Thought-knot or reality smasher. after that, usually not bad and we can grind em out. I'd say 40/60 in their favor though just based on sample size.
Overall fun deck to play, but very meta (as is all graveyard strats).
keep testing!
2 x Forest
2 x Plains
4 x Wooded Foothills
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Windswept Heath
2 x Hissing Quagmire
3 x Shambling Vent
1 x Sunken Hollow
1 x Prairie Stream
1 x Smoldering Marsh
2 x Canopy Vista
Creatures
4 x Warden of the First Tree
4 x Sylvan Advocate
4 x Siege Rhino
3 x Den Protector
3 x Anafenza, the Foremost
1 x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 x Reflector Mage
2 x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 x Silk Wrap
1 x Murderous Cut
3 x Abzan Charm
2 x Stubborn Denial
3 x Dromoka's Command
2 x Ultimate Price
1 x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 x Disdainful Stroke
3 x Self-Inflicted Wound
3 x Surge of Righteousness
1 x Arashin Cleric
2 x Pitiless Horde
2 x Dispel
8 Person Game day (Vday) - you'll see my punt in the finals
R1 - Percy on UR Prowess
*Win Dice Roll* *Play*
G1 - Nothing to see here, Curve out Warden, Advocate, Fenza, Dromoka's command, Silk Wrap and double Rhino . See Storm Chaser Mage, Swift Spear and Elusive Spellfist - Definitely on Prowess
In: 3x Surge of Righteouness, 1x Arashin Cleric, 2 Ultimate Price, 2 Dispel, 1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Out: 2x Abzan Charm, 3x Warden, 2 Dromoka's Command, 2x Gideon 1x Den Protector
G2 - Mull to six, but keep a hand of Heath, Foothills and Strand, 2 Surge of Righteousness and 1 Ultimate Price. Scry Arashin Cleric on top.
Needless to say I won this game single handily despite his best efforts to play around removal. I drew the rest of my removal and started land rhino after rhino and denial'd his roasts. He conceded around T7/T8.
(2-0)
R2 - VJ - Atarka(jund) Red?
Another guy I play with. I thought he was on Rally, but he has heavy devotion to Red (Chandra)
*Win Dice Roll* Play
G1 - Quick and Easy with a perfect curve: Warden, Advocate, Fenza, Rhino, Sorin
In: 3x Surge of Righteouness, 1x Arashin Cleric, 2 Ultimate Price, 2 Dispel, 1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Out: 2x Abzan Charm, 3x Warden, 2 Dromoka's Command, 2x Gideon 1x Den Protector
G2 - Similar to how my UR Prowess game played out and just ate him with removal. No contest
R3 - Matt on Bant Ramp (home brew)
*Win Dice Roll* *Play*
One of the guys I play with at the store - so I knew he was on some form of ramp today.
G1 - Kept a mediocre hand with 3 Den Protectors and 2 Abzan Charms. Wall of Resurgence and Jaddi Offshoot don't block well against 3 den protectors beating down. Easy win
In: 3x Self-inflicted Wound, 1x Disdainful Stroke, 2 Pitiless Horde, 2 Ultimate Price
G2: Kept a sketchy hand but saw 3 lands in sequence, Abzan Charm, Anafenza, Siege Rhino and Self Inflicted Wound and kept it.
Turns out that was a bad idea. He went T2 Rattleclaw into T3 Explosive Vegetation, T4 Explosive Vegetation, Rattleclaw, T5 Part The Waterveil into T6 Ulamog. To add insult to injury, he Part The Waterveil again just because he could. I slow hand punish...
G3. Another Den Protector beating. GG
At this point I was stoked since the store owner decided on three rounds cut to Top 4 but a raging migraine was creeping up. I should have took a break and grabbed a lot of water - but I didn't and that was probably a mistake.
Semi - Final - Paul on RB Dragons
Random guy who thought our store was an easy game day win
*Win Dice Roll* (Loving my luck)
G1 - Curved out beautifully, Started with Sylvan Advocate ->Reflector Mage-> Rhino and Sorin. That was game. He durdled for 4 turns and didn't draw any removal 2 Flamewakes Phoenix and 3 lands, Fiery Impulse and Storm's fury. Turns Reflector mage on his Flamewake phoenix really sucked for him. I felt so dirty for doing that..
In: see red deck match ups, no change in plans
G2 - This was a fun game,we just traded removal spells on each other but Sorin is a beast in this match up and manlands seal the deal.
Finals! (VJ from R2) Apparently, he didn't drop a game afterwards.
Not sure, I thought since I was higher ranked I'd get to go first which would be an advantage ofc vs his red deck... but store owner just said rolled for it and VJ quickly agreed (Obviously would have the edge) and my luck ran out (he won the roll)...And this is where I punted.
G1 - Not sure what I was thinking, kept a Dromoka command, Reflector mage, Anafenza and stubborn denial and 3 lands(Strand,Foothills, Shambling Vent). Needless to say, and and roasted in sequence and I only drew lands thereafter. That and I botched my land sequencing and Fetched for Sunken Hollow T1 instead of just curving out, leaving me with no T3 play and him beating down with swiftspears and Zurgo (no pumps or tokens), tapping out for Fenza had me roasted and he titan strengthed to seal my fate.
G2 - boarded in some of my wonderful red hate but opted to drop the den protectors instead. Kept a 7 hand of Warden, 2 Dispel, 1 Dromoka's Command, 3 optimal fetches. Not sure if I played optimally but I figured I should play Warden on 2 instead of T1 to avoid a pulse or slash blowout. Lo and behold, I play T2 warden with Dispel backup and my Opp tried to impulse it for a tempo swing on his turn for his Swiftie only to get dispelled. I untap and dromoka command his lonely Swiftie. He misses his land drop drops a mini Zurgo and tries to wildslash only to yet again face dispel. I drew perfectly from then with another Dromoka command into Abzan charm. Warden was out of roast range and I just took time to make him into a ridiculous beater 13/13 lifelink trample. He was not very happy.
Out - Warden, In Den protector (Stupid bad in my opinion)
G3 - ah, and now this is where I goofed. For whatever reason, I stupidly keep a removal-less hand and a curve of Den Protector, Anafenza, Sorin, 2 fetches 1 shambling and Dispel. In hindsight I should have mulled for at least 2 or 3 removal but c'est la vie...
This time I sequenced approprately, fetch Plains, Fetch Forest, Fetch Sunken Hollow. But him being on the play wrecked me as he T1 Swiftie, I played tapped vent then he T2 Double Titan strength me... dealing 9 putting me at 10 at the end of his T2!!! I believe that would be considered the nuts? I don't think i could have dealt with that outside of a T1 warden?
T2 I play Den Protector out of desperation seeing as I drew no removal spell and drew my 4th land, putting me at 9 from the fetch.
He misses his land drop and Roasts my den protector and puts me to 7 with Taylor Swiftie.
T3 I end up drawing an Abzan Charm, play fetch and play Anafenza, leaving me at 6. Figuring he can't possibly have a Roast, as he should only have 2 copies (if he net decked). and Abzan Charm probably would be on his mind if he saw untapped mana
He found his land and roasts my Anafenza and swings, putting me at 4 but had no other follow up spell. At this point, I know I'm fairly boned unless I draw my cleric or maybe a Surge of Righteousness.
T4 I drew... my second copy of Sorin and made a vampire token after fetching down to 3. I figure if I can somehow survive this turn I might be able to still have a chance...
On his Turn proceeds to impulse my token, Play Dragon Fodder and swing for lethal off a +2 Prowessed Swiftie.
I was salty, cuz I kept a mediocre hand stupidly and he just had the nuts to deal 9 on T2. But I shook his hand and congratulted him. After a brief chat with him, he told me he snapkeeped that one creature, 2 lands 2 titan strength and 2 roast hand... , if I had removal at any point, he'd have lost since he top decked the Dragon Fodder and he said he had a gut feeling this was a winning hand. Made me even more salty cuz it felt like a bit of a brag but hey, a loss is a loss and I know it was clearly my judgmental error.
I actually realized that after packing up to leave I had dropped one of my maindeck cards (stubborn denial) and I was actually playing 59 cards in the finals... Not sure if that would make a difference..
Conclusion:
Sylvan Advocate feels like a boss, dodging impulses and wildslashes and is still a good topdeck...especially with manlands in play!
Reflector mage, pretty darn good, but didn't get a feel, i'm sure it wrecks teh mirror more...
Stubborn denial main feels good too, especially if you have a chance to say surprise to a kill spell people don't expect. Though this is more of a later game application, since I only have 2 blue sources and have to fetch for them. It was decent enough for me though I might swap a foothill for a delta to increase the probability to fetch for it.
Permission spells (Stubborn Denial, Dispel, Disdainful Stroke) certainly make Rally and Ramp match-ups much easier to take down - and I totally agree there is more than one way to do it and the reason I like playing this archetype is it's flexible to adjust accordingly.
As far as Rally goes, I am inclined to agree that it's a pretty tough match-up, especially for traditional abzan. I did enjoy playing [[Tainted remedy]] in the sideboard just for funsies, though that was just a for fun match-up in some of my testing. [[Tainted Remedy]] is, imo, another random, but fun way to completely ruin their game plan since they can't win through Cutthroat triggers, assuming we keep our own life total higher than theirs. Again, test and see what works for you.
Haven't seen any CoCo decks recently, so can't comment.
And for Ramp, I didn't think it was too bad if you played [[Pitiless Horde]] and [[Transgress the Mind]] and[[Duresses]]. Assuming you kept a reasonable hand to add pressure, I thought the match-up was even if not favorable.
Currently testing a variant of Abzan Blue, and it's been fun tempo play with [[Reflector Mage]] and [[Stubborn Denial]]!
The biggest problem with flaying is the double black. Unless you rework your mana base to accommodate a T3 double black (via fetches and basics), the flaying tendrils are worse off since you probably wont get to cast it when you really need it at that point. Ultimate price against aggro works quite well, but it's your call at the end of the day.
Oh, and I would probably drop 1x Gideon in favor of 1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor. Most people don't like it but to me it has been great versus a variety of decks and is a nightmare for red decks.
My theory for less flaying and the 4x Surge - I just need to buy enough time to drop my Fenza, Rhinos, and overall stabilize without being mana screwed for the boardwipe... but I mean, I also run 2 x Sorin in my 75, so my strategy might be different that OP. OP could also consider going to 2 x Arashin Cleric and 4 Surge of Righteousness. There's almost no way for a red deck to punch through that much lifegain...
I mean, worse comes to worse, I've been toying with [[boiling earth]] as a cheap answer to tokens lol but that's just *****s and giggles.
Not a pro by any means, so take it with a grain of salt - I think your sideboard needs a rework, and since your meta is predominantly aggro (red decks), my suggestion:
-2 Ob Nixilis Reignited, -1 Flaying Tendrils, -3 Duress, +4 Surge of Righteousness, + 2 Ultimate Price. I'm not sure when you would want Ob Nixislis...
Surge of Righteousness, is in my opinion, criminally underplayed. Whether you face Atarka decks, or Prowess Decks it is very relevant as the destroy + incidental lifegain is insane!
Surge also hits things like Anafenza and Rhinos and Ayli if that's of any concern.
Also, what is your sideboard plan like when faced against aggro, maybe if you post an example that would help us discern whether you are doing it correctly... Also, how you sideboard depends on the play or draw.
Just an opinion based on 20 games vs my 2 friends (RG Tron and UW/U Tron), I've found that if I can stick a delver T1//T2 Tasigur and hold up Mana leak/deprive/spell pierce/spell snare, my games vs tron tend to go quite well even if they attempt to run a T3 Karn or Wurmcoil. Typically a close 50/50 or slightly in our favor... but that just could be from limited testing.
Usually if they know they have to respect a M.leak or pierce, this will delay the 1-2 turns we need to clinch the game with our early threats. I'm not sure how if that would workout if we're playing heavier on the terminates and rise//fall package
Also, regarding the burn matches, it seems the lists running more terminates and rise//fall looks to concede G1 and hope to take it G2. Thoughts on this?My experience is that I've found the counter heavy (8+ counters) tend to lead to a 50/50 match up and in our favor G2. I used to run more terminates before the 2/2 split of pierce and snare inclusion and my burn matchup felt impossible to win G1.
But I guess the list changes slightly according to your meta? Burn is always around in mine.
I've tried Abbot and I find him lackluster in my delver list (counterspell heavy) and I think he functions better in blue jund/jund or Chapin's Temur Tempo. Obviously, my two cents...
Remand is typically a "time walk" type card and is more useful for decks that have a win condition that needs assembling (aka tron, twin etc).
Delver plays as a tempo deck and looks for disrupting type of cards for a cheap cost (combinations of spell pierce, spell snare, mana leak and dispel) and can run hard counters such as deprive. Deprive is an interesting card as it does set you back a turn in terms of landdrops but seeing as delver can operate on a low land count (2 is usually sufficient to do most things), it is playable as 1 or 2 of so the tempo is not often a huge set back.
As far as the affinity hate, kolaghan's command is amazing as it does represent a 2 for 1 quite often. Depending on how you actually build your deck (lean towards control via more killspells or tempo via more counterspells), you may choose to run ancient grudge (with possibly a breeding pool) and vandalblast or you can go all in with shatterstorm.
Personally, in my meta I don't really come across affinity all that much so I only run 2 kommands main and 1 rakdos charm from the side. Combinations of spell pierces, snares, forked bolts have worked wonders for me in most of my "artifact" related matches (a la tron and lantern control).
thanks!
I really like the IOK inclusion. I've been toying with the same thoughts as well! I was thinking that I don't want to include mediocre cards such as SWERVE or REDIRECT just to deal with ABRUPT DECAY since they don't really serve any other purpose. I know that discard effects are tempo negative but I think this type of proactive play works in our favor for the JUNK matchups.
What are your thoughts on including more than 2? Several of my friends who play JUNK and JUND swear by the "4 or nothing" rule for thoughtseize and IOK.
Lands - 17
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarns
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Watery Grave
3 Steam Vents
Creatures - 14
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Young Pyromancer
Sorcery - 9
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Forked Bolt
Instant - 20
3 Thought Scour
1 Kolghan's Command
1 Remand
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
2 Deprive
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Electrolyze
1 Flash Freeze
Sideboard - 15
2 Flash Freeze
2 Dragon's Claw
1 Olivia Volderan
1 Kolghan's Command
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
R1 Jund (2-0)
G1, T1 Delver backed with 1 spell snare (for his goyf) 3 lightning bolts and a Snapcaster won this easily since he had Bob ping him for 4 twice. Easy Match
G2, Wasn't sure how this match up should go, but i know he has LOTV. - 2 electrolyze + 2 negate - 1 forked Bolt + 1 Ashiok
T1 Delver again and holding up counter magic for his T2 goyf and T3 lilianna quickly seals the game. His luck with Dark confidant was not good (probably too high a curve), but inflicting 8 damage in 2 turns lets my delver win quite easily.
R2 BW tokens (0-2)
-Lost badly against this matchup. Both games he just too much for me to deal with. He had the nuts draw while I struggled with bad hands. Despite T2 Tasigur and T4 Angler, I just couldn't get through.. coupled with Sorin SV Not a good match I think. Maybe a Virulent Plague in the sideboard might help...
R3 Burn (2-1)
Played this vs a friend. Since I knew his play style it was much easier to deal with overall.
G1 - close game where I kept 1 Delver, 2 lands and 1 Bolt and all counter spells (leak, deprive, flashfreeze) - Delver flipped for me and I basically raced him down to 3, and top decked a bolt FtW
G2- I know from experience that he would board in destructive revelries for my dragon claws,and for some reason my area of LGS all did not have Death's shadows in stock... n e ways, I purposely did not bring claws to make sure he had dead card sin hand. Unfortunately mulled to 5 and he just layed down the burn for a T4 win.
G3 - Drew a lot better, resolved a T1 Delver flipping T2. Dispel and negates and snares were all stars this game and he just ran out of gas. Incredibly close though as I was within bolt range when I Bolt, Snap Bolt for the win.
R4 Abzan Leige with souls (1-2)
Won G1 off delver and him not being able to find AD (countered his path).
G2 - just wrecked me with souls and gavony township and smiters.
G3 - mulled to 5 and couldn't stop his value onslaught of voice, smiter, rhino...
Didn't test Thassa or Temur Battle Rage sadly. tough tough matchups.
I'd definitely want to run more games and get more test data on it, but preliminary shows decent outputs. They either block or take the full brunt of the force, even if they double block (say double rhino), we still have the end advantage, by Kommanding back our threat.
I'll test more at FNM and see how that plays out.