Heartless Eldrazi is NUTS but I am not sure it is better in a whole-Modern meta environment like the one I face weekly. However I have all the cards already in the mail on their way to my hot little hands and I will be sure to run it several times before I make any firm conclusions.
My mana base is as follows and I find it very strong. I no longer feel worried about slow or inconsistent mana at all (lots of duals, few colorless, no taplands). I plan to run Thought-Knot Seer post-OGW and then I will have 4 Caves of Koilos and probably lose a Shrine and a Flats maybe, or maybe 2 Shrines and keep the Flats.
If you do what you say you're going to do, you are going to have 11 sources of C. I suspect it will be difficult for you to cast Thought-Knot Seer consistently on so few C sources.
This is true. Because there are not WC or BC duals, fetches, or fetch targets, the mana base gets stretched extremely thin. I would probably lose one Swamp for a Wastes so I have another basic to fetch off GQ, Path, or Map, helping my colorless sources but weakening my colored sources.
The colorless-matters OGW cards are going to put extreme demands on the manabase and may prove to make Oath cards untenable in a B/x/C build.
Extraction is really really good versus burn. They cast a lot of spells which give you a wide selection of things in the yard. Lava spike, lightning bolt, swiftspear are all good targets imo. If you happen to IoK/TS turn 1, you can actually just rip apart their hand if they have multiple cards. I am thinking about ditching the maps in my BW build for 2 extraction in the main. I only have 2 on MTGO, so no others in the board for now, I guess I'll have to pick up some others.
I really do not agree with this. If you Extract any one of those cards you still left them with all of the others. Burn is about the last deck I would run Extraction against.
If you do run it, AND you get an early look at their hand with a discard effect, AND they happen to have two of the same spell in hand, THEN you can Extract and get 1-for-1 value (you used two cards to get two cards). Otherwise you played a card in the hopes that they would have drawn it in the match when maybe they wouldn't have, and even if they would have drawn the card you Extracted, well they just get to draw something else to kill you with instead.
First of all, NO stranglers in my build. I do not think this card is as good people think it is. Honestly, if I wanted to -3/-3 something, I'd run bile blight which can 2-5 for 1 things sometimes. I also don't run enough exile effects in the deck. When I tried him, he simply was a 2-3 mana for 3/2 body in the early game. I dropped my 3 I had in the main for: Damnation, Go for the Throat, and a 2nd Ruin Processor.
1. The manabase is a bit clunky, any suggestions to make it less clunky? I did mull alot due to seeing hands of consisting of: GQ and Temple, Plains and Temple, Eye and Plains or 1 landers even.
2. Any sweet anti-tron tech people want to share? I would like to make my MU better but I don't feel GQ's and discard are enough.
Your color balance is super-low to cast B and W spells early. You need many dual sources and few mono-W or B (or C!). Post-Oath, Caves of Koilos will a mandatory 4-of. I agree that Strangler is too conditional and I run 3 MB Spellskites, which are such a surprise, and so strong (fetch off Eye!).
For Tron (and Scapeshift it should be added) I have warped my board to have 2x Map and 3x Surgical Extraction but no Celestial Purge. (This set-up drew me a match post-board vs. Scapeshift after GQing and Extracting his Valakut in G2.) Ghost Quarter is not enough by itself, you need Extraction, because the land decks are too consistent. Map will also help with Blood Moon-type effects where Quarter would not.
For sweepers I am considering Languish over Damnation but own only the latter; the rhino, the Banana King and the zombie fish are still a thing, so I don't know.
I only own 1 damnation. Any suggestions to remove/add to help fix my mana?
Your curve is WAY too high. Ruin Processors cost way too much for what they do and should be SB if included at all. Secondly, I highly disagree with your assessment of Strangler. Between 4 Relics and 4 Paths, I have almost never gotten value off it. It also sits low enough in the curve to chump block aggro decks if you need it to. I'd include the 4x Cave of Kolios if you need help with your mana base.
I can see cutting one, but I want to hedge my bets against burn game 1 if possible.
I use 2x Damnation and 2x Engineered Explosives in the board for sweepers. I really like this mix. I have been going back and forth with a single MB All is Dust; it's one sided (except for Spirit tokens) but it is awful slow.
I have not had consistent success with Wasteland Strangler, despite having 4x Relic, 2x Claws, 4x Path, and 1x Surgical Extraction in the main. So I took out three Stranglers for 3 maindeck Spellskites. They ALWAYS have value, no conditions. And they steal games against Infect, Bogles, etc., where we would otherwise be unlikely to win G1.
My mana base is as follows and I find it very strong. I no longer feel worried about slow or inconsistent mana at all (lots of duals, few colorless, no taplands). I plan to run Thought-Knot Seer post-OGW and then I will have 4 Caves of Koilos and probably lose a Shrine and a Flats maybe, or maybe 2 Shrines and keep the Flats.
GQ --> Extraction is definitely the best plan vs. Tron (and Scapeshift). I had two maindeck for a while and now have one man and three in the board. But you have to understand that in most circumstances it is a 0-for-1 unless you pull a true win con like a Tron land, Scpeshift, etc.
It can play in the Processor deck because it turns on Strangler and Herder, but in most builds it is a desperation play, not a strong crd choice.
What are the actual odds of not hitting an enabler or a wincon T1 though? Most of the time you should be hitting something good unless they kept a crap hand for some reason. I don't know if I'd run in in BW, but certainly Mono B and maybe B/R. My main concern in Mono B is enabling Strangler for T2 so even if you end up not hitting something amazing you can still usually cast a T2 strangler and that could be devastating.
I know some people were talking about it earlier, but what ever happened to running 2-3 (or even 4) Surgical Extractions? That seems like a super powerful turn 1 discard into Extraction against a lot of decks and fits our game plan. Versus Tron: GQ UrzaTron land, Extract it and they are off Tron from the get go. Fish: Seas, Vial. Elves: Ezuri, Archdruid, etc. Plus can set us up for a turn 2 Strangler. I think we need more than 4 exile sources (Relics) to be effective. Sure there will be TKS but the earlier that can come down is turn 2. I think SE could potentially set us up for some good board states as early as turn 1. What does everyone else think?
I ran two main and another two side (maindeck having 4 Relic + 2 Scrabbling Claws as well) and it served me well. You don't really want it against some decks (mostly aggro ones), but against anything Combo it can be a major stomping, and it can neuter Control as well.
I also really like being able to Ghost Quarter + Extraction some nonbasics to set up for a really juicy Oblivion Sower.
Surgical is also sneaky good against burn since they use a lot of redundancy in their cards. Ripping a bolt turn 1 with discard and then paying 2 to extract it can save you a lot of damage. Also you can easily pick a card they have multiples of in hand to force them into topdeck mode sooner (increasing your chance of winning).
I disagree. Extraction's effect is objectively weak against decks with lots of redundancy like Zoo, Burn, Affinity etc, because you can't take away a very big piece of their important tools. If you Extract a Bolt, who's to say that the opponent would have even drawn a second one in the match? They can sure beat you without it. Odds are good that you might have just 0-for-1'ed yourself.
It is also weak against decks that don't themselves fill the graveyard, like mono-color aggro, because then you are relying on discard to set it up. It is too inconsistent. Lots of moving pieces and no guarantee of value = weak card.
It is a bad card in most deck builds, but for Processing it has a distinct upside because it turns on Herders and Stranglers. And against some decks it can be truly crippling. If there is a build where it makes sense, it's in a Processor build. Note however that it is anti-synergistic with Path and Relic.
It can play in the Processor deck because it turns on Strangler and Herder, but in most builds it is a desperation play, not a strong crd choice.
If you are on the processor plan, though, I think it could be a strong addition to the main deck. Even extracting a fetchland at the end of the opponent's first turn could disrupt their mana base, turn on your Stranglers, Herders and make future Sowers guaranteed to hit. And the best part is you get to look through their entire deck, which gives you perfect information about not only what deck you're facing, but what configuration it is (does this version of twin run Blood Moon, etc.). Just using it as exile-effect #5-8 in a mono-black deck seems like it could be clutch.
I'm certainly going to find room for some main board in my mono-black build.
Agreed. I have 1 main and 3 in the board for Tron and Scapeshift primarily. I would not main more than 2, personally.
GQ --> Extraction is definitely the best plan vs. Tron (and Scapeshift). I had two maindeck for a while and now have one man and three in the board. But you have to understand that in most circumstances it is a 0-for-1 unless you pull a true win con like a Tron land, Scpeshift, etc.
It can play in the Processor deck because it turns on Strangler and Herder, but in most builds it is a desperation play, not a strong crd choice.
Flaying Tendrils will be a big part going into oath against Fish, Elves, Slivers and other creature synergy decks.
Upon more testing preboard Elves is still pretty bad. The problem I've been running into so far is it really is a crap shoot with what cards to take from their hand since they have so many good ones. I'd almost say it is safe to take out most discard for them in favor of removal/sweepers.
I seem to have fewer issues than most against Elves, Fish and Slivers. Maybe that is because I am playing BW and have a few more options. The key for me is to have the spot removal for the important things and get them into topdeck mode. I do have a 1x Damnation out of my side and a 1x All is Dust in the main. If you can clear away their board once you tend to win. Otherwise I usually jump as much as possible with Lingering Souls and Blight Herder Scions til I get there.
Wow, I run BW and struggle with Elves and Merfolk. I have 1 Strangler and 3 Skites in main which I love for consistency, with 1 All is Dust main and 2 Damnation 2 Engineered Explosives SB. And I STILL think these matches are hard.
For me, BW Eldrazi Midrange struggles vs. Tron, fast aggro (esp. mono-color) and Burn, and not much else.
First of all, NO stranglers in my build. I do not think this card is as good people think it is. Honestly, if I wanted to -3/-3 something, I'd run bile blight which can 2-5 for 1 things sometimes. I also don't run enough exile effects in the deck. When I tried him, he simply was a 2-3 mana for 3/2 body in the early game. I dropped my 3 I had in the main for: Damnation, Go for the Throat, and a 2nd Ruin Processor.
1. The manabase is a bit clunky, any suggestions to make it less clunky? I did mull alot due to seeing hands of consisting of: GQ and Temple, Plains and Temple, Eye and Plains or 1 landers even.
2. Any sweet anti-tron tech people want to share? I would like to make my MU better but I don't feel GQ's and discard are enough.
Your color balance is super-low to cast B and W spells early. You need many dual sources and few mono-W or B (or C!). Post-Oath, Caves of Koilos will a mandatory 4-of. I agree that Strangler is too conditional and I run 3 MB Spellskites, which are such a surprise, and so strong (fetch off Eye!).
For Tron (and Scapeshift it should be added) I have warped my board to have 2x Map and 3x Surgical Extraction but no Celestial Purge. (This set-up drew me a match post-board vs. Scapeshift after GQing and Extracting his Valakut in G2.) Ghost Quarter is not enough by itself, you need Extraction, because the land decks are too consistent. Map will also help with Blood Moon-type effects where Quarter would not.
For sweepers I am considering Languish over Damnation but own only the latter; the rhino, the Banana King and the zombie fish are still a thing, so I don't know.
I don't think I've ever had any problems with Elves or merfolk with Bx Eldrazi. In playtesting all I end up doing is running more sweepers like Languish and tides of Sorrow. All my eldrazi that I care about survive these attacks except for Thought-Knot Seer and Wasteland Strangler. Also, elves give my Funeral Charm some easy targets since they are mostly 1 toughness.
Right, I guess I just misread the initial comment. The only time I can see it being an issue is with the 3CMC colorless creatures and Eye in play (specifically Reshaper) as you won't be able to make it uncounterable with Cavern. Although I think Reshaper might be the only one thus far.
With Elves, if you have a way of dealing with their T1 and T2 mana dorks or an early board wipe that is probably game. I've not had much experience with Fish aside from testing and TKS seems to shore up that matchup considerably. I wouldn't call it favorable but T1 discard into T2 TKS or discard can be back breaking for them especially if you hit Vial or Seas. They don't have good ways to deal with our creatures unless they run Dismember as Snag and Harbinger not great against us. Their most powerful cards are Vial, Seas and Phantasmal Image if they run it.
Not saying either matchup is that great but I think with some of the new tech coming our way they got much better.
Edit: Don't forget about Wail... I'm not sure where it belongs in the lists but that will help a lot against Elves for the early mana dorks, probably terrible against Fish though.
I've also noticed an improvement in the Merfolk matchup with TKS.
The current problem with the early game against them is Cursecatcher so if they are on the play and drop him turn 1 it is a risk to play TS or IoK. However, if you hit double Temple or Eye and Urborg and TKS there is nothing they can do short of Dismember to get rid of him. If you manage to avoid Seas via discard the matchup really isn't that bad. Vial can get nasty but if they don't have Seas in play then our dudes should at least trade with them if not kill them.
I guess with TKS they could Snag him to draw a card but that seems like an iffy play.
Don't forget to Ghost Quarter your own land to nuke Spreading Seas, in response if you can so they don't get the draw.
Is anyone else getting CONSTANTLY manascrewed/land flooded in the Processors version?? It seems like half my games involve no land hands, or a stream of lands topdeck... It's insufferable.
I have had this happen, but then I have had it happen with all decks. Right now my land balance seems to work very well. Not sure what the demands of running the Oath cards will do to it, though.
You need a LOT of W and B to make it work. A lot more than you think, probably. A lot more than many of the lists you'll see. I did not have room for more than 2 GQ main, and I only have 3 basics, so I can cover my T1-3 color needs. Fetches are key.
CBW is all about the early stall (at which it excels) and then late-game crushing inexorability. Souls and Skites have been key for the early game for me.
Pithing Needle naming Karn can come out T1. GQ + Surgical is the best plan, but that is two cards and we need both for it to really work. GQ by itself is not enough, Tron is too consistent.
I am thinking it is not optional to be able to beat Tron if we want this deck to be a serious contender. I am looking at going to 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Duress main, losing the IoKs. This weakens us against fast aggro, but often there is a CoCo or Bolt/Path we could take instead of a small creature.
I went for a 2/2 GQ/Map split to fetch vs. Blood Moon, which we will be seeing all the time. One Extraction main and 3 in the board.
I'm wondering whether Heartless Eldrazi is going to be the superior version even after OGW. Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Shifter seem to slot pretty naturally into the spots that Conduit and Channeler were taking, and gives you more ways to convert a turn 2 Heartless Summoning into phat beatz.
But Conduit and Channeler are integral parts of the ramp-into-Ulamog by T4-5 plan, though.
Let's say you cut the T1 Discard and only run the 4 Heartless Summoning as your black spells. With the additional of the colourless matter spells Reality Smasher, Thought-Knot Seer, maybe an Endbringer
How many black sources do you consistently need to cast a t2 Heartless.
Assuming a colourless matters focus, what would you add and cut to this.
It suggests a minimum of 14 color sources for a T1 play, 13 for T2, 12 for T3. Take out the Radiant Fountain for spell-type lifegain source. Same with Tomb. Cut Cavern of Souls to 2-3 at most. Add Swamps, Caves of Koilos and more Urborgs, probably a 4-of. Run some Expedition Map for fixing.
The colorless-matters OGW cards are going to put extreme demands on the manabase and may prove to make Oath cards untenable in a B/x/C build.
If you do run it, AND you get an early look at their hand with a discard effect, AND they happen to have two of the same spell in hand, THEN you can Extract and get 1-for-1 value (you used two cards to get two cards). Otherwise you played a card in the hopes that they would have drawn it in the match when maybe they wouldn't have, and even if they would have drawn the card you Extracted, well they just get to draw something else to kill you with instead.
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/in-development-how-to-waste-two-life-at-instant-speed/
It's good against combo and with Ghost Quarter to stop the land decks. Not good in other cases except as a Processor enabler.
I have not had consistent success with Wasteland Strangler, despite having 4x Relic, 2x Claws, 4x Path, and 1x Surgical Extraction in the main. So I took out three Stranglers for 3 maindeck Spellskites. They ALWAYS have value, no conditions. And they steal games against Infect, Bogles, etc., where we would otherwise be unlikely to win G1.
My mana base is as follows and I find it very strong. I no longer feel worried about slow or inconsistent mana at all (lots of duals, few colorless, no taplands). I plan to run Thought-Knot Seer post-OGW and then I will have 4 Caves of Koilos and probably lose a Shrine and a Flats maybe, or maybe 2 Shrines and keep the Flats.
2x Caves of Koilos
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Eye of Ugin
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vault of the Archangel
It is also weak against decks that don't themselves fill the graveyard, like mono-color aggro, because then you are relying on discard to set it up. It is too inconsistent. Lots of moving pieces and no guarantee of value = weak card.
It is a bad card in most deck builds, but for Processing it has a distinct upside because it turns on Herders and Stranglers. And against some decks it can be truly crippling. If there is a build where it makes sense, it's in a Processor build. Note however that it is anti-synergistic with Path and Relic.Agreed. I have 1 main and 3 in the board for Tron and Scapeshift primarily. I would not main more than 2, personally.
It can play in the Processor deck because it turns on Strangler and Herder, but in most builds it is a desperation play, not a strong crd choice.
For me, BW Eldrazi Midrange struggles vs. Tron, fast aggro (esp. mono-color) and Burn, and not much else.
For Tron (and Scapeshift it should be added) I have warped my board to have 2x Map and 3x Surgical Extraction but no Celestial Purge. (This set-up drew me a match post-board vs. Scapeshift after GQing and Extracting his Valakut in G2.) Ghost Quarter is not enough by itself, you need Extraction, because the land decks are too consistent. Map will also help with Blood Moon-type effects where Quarter would not.
For sweepers I am considering Languish over Damnation but own only the latter; the rhino, the Banana King and the zombie fish are still a thing, so I don't know.
2x Caves of Koilos
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Eye of Ugin
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vault of the Archangel
CBW is all about the early stall (at which it excels) and then late-game crushing inexorability. Souls and Skites have been key for the early game for me.
I am thinking it is not optional to be able to beat Tron if we want this deck to be a serious contender. I am looking at going to 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Duress main, losing the IoKs. This weakens us against fast aggro, but often there is a CoCo or Bolt/Path we could take instead of a small creature.
I went for a 2/2 GQ/Map split to fetch vs. Blood Moon, which we will be seeing all the time. One Extraction main and 3 in the board.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-standard-brews-with-m15-and-thoughts-on-standard-in-the-fall/
It suggests a minimum of 14 color sources for a T1 play, 13 for T2, 12 for T3. Take out the Radiant Fountain for spell-type lifegain source. Same with Tomb. Cut Cavern of Souls to 2-3 at most. Add Swamps, Caves of Koilos and more Urborgs, probably a 4-of. Run some Expedition Map for fixing.