Hello! Long time lurker here, and I finally proxied this bad boy up. I have a potential innovation and a question.
EDIT: Whoops... postmortem lunge is a sorcery...so maybe we can still make this work with a manamorphose and a footsteps of the goryo, but perhaps I need to just follow along with the class. My confusion about the end state still stands, so any clarification thereof would be great. Thank you! /EDIT
1. I am attempting to leverage Laboratory Maniac as my win condition. I don't know if its good, just seems less "complicated" than the other loops, at least to explain to opponents. To make this work, I am playing with Simian Spirit Guide, and single copy of each Desperate Ritual and Postmortem Lunge. The idea is to execute the "initial state" combo, and when we discard to hand size we can respond to the emrakul, the aeons torn trigger by floating two off of SSG, Desparate for three, then pay 2 life and 3 red to cast the lunge on Laboratory Maniac, then we can draw for the win.
However, my problem is that I can't seem to reason how to prevent Griselbrand from exiling at end step, or to setup a state where I can reanimate another copy after the first was exiled. This is my question, what am I missing about the combo, that I can't seem to goldfish myself into the proper gamestate to have Griselbrand to draw during the "discard to handsize" phase of the game (which is used by the Gut Shot combo in other versions).
Anyone have any thoughts on the Lab man kill or my confusion around the execution?
So is anyone else happy about the top 8 of the pro tour being mostly favorable for us?
I have been on another deck recently but of the meta shifts because people want to play the winningest decks, I may need to dust off the good Ole proc list...
Great perspectives here, I am reading the suggestions to be:
-1 gideon
-2 ghostly prisons
-1 kami
If I do this then I would:
+1 wrath from the board (move kami to board)
+1 serra ascendant
+1 weathered wayfarer (still not sold as I am more likely to draw one of my 7 colorless lands in the first 3 turns than I am to be on the draw AND mise into wayfarer)
+1 something (I may be on another blessed alliance or oblivion ring effect)
Some choices of note:
1. no weathered wayfarer, 24 lands + crucible - The thought here is two fold. I am going full bore on the "land destruction" plan with the Ghost Quarter + Field of Ruin + Crucible of Worlds, I should not need to tutor for them against tron, but I wanted to maintain a high count of basics along with the 7 colorless producers. The notable issue is possibly around wanting mistveil plains and being unable to tutor for it at will. I am hoping the Ghost Quarter + Flagstones of Trokair takes care of this possible issue.
2. No more than the 4 Gideon of the Trials as well as only 3 Serra Ascendant - One of the issues I have always felt with this deck has been the relative inability to just end the game. It is GREAT at staying alive and I have gone to time many times (due to slow play on my part in many cases). Gideon Of the Trails is amazing at both helping us stay alive AND finishing the game, at worst he is an expensive fog and at best he is the post wrath finisher I think we are missing. The combo with other flavors of Gideon I am not against, but for this weekend I am happy with this thought. The 4th Ascendant is something I have waffled on for a long time. My final justification was: Ascendant is a bad topdeck when we are behind. I would rather have Gideon. Time will tell if this turns out to be correct.
A few other points:
I really wanted the 4th wrath of god, but also wanted blessed alliance, putting the 4th wrath in the side board was a compromise with myself.
I started with only 2 ghostly prisons in the sideboard, but was too much of a chicken to not run the full set somewhere. Every time I have a choice to cast prison or something else I am always disappointed with the decision, I am not sure GotT solves this or not...
Kami of false hope main because he helps protect Gideon, and isn't completely dead if I don't have Gideon. The proc lock is sweet and frustrating for all the creature decks.
I had some success with lingering souls and sky Hussar. Not at any huge tournament or anything but fnm level. I could see a list running lingering souls and looterscooter...
More to come, but anecdotally I played 6 pre-sideboard games against my mono blue tron deck with the aforementioned manabase, and didn't lose a game. I kept the blue tron deck off of tron in 5/6 games... GOTT was an all star against the singleton big threats in MBT. Notably there are no Karen's or ugins in my list, focusing mainly on slaver and wurmcoil/sunder in titan.
Long story short, I am really excited to take this out to a tournament in short order.
Edit - full disclosure, I was playing both decks so technically had perfect information. I tried to be objective but likely wasnt completely.
I really like this deck list, I am considering running something very similar, and wanted to get your opinion on the no path plan. Do you ever miss it? I suppose I am generally wanting it against creature based combo decks, but not running any number in a Mono White deck seems borderline blasphemous.
I am thinking how much the effect stacks with the gq and FoRs, and in my list I'll be running crucible for maximum effect.
I personally also choose eidolon of rhetoric . Against Sramios path their first creature when they try shenanigans, then drop eidolon.
I am playing a gpt this afternoon, I'll report back later.
Edit: not worth reporting on. I lost first match to 52 lands seismic assault + treasure hunt. Talk about feel bad, opponent had no side board because they just started playing and after folding to a turn 1 pithing needle from the board in g2, I didnt mull to 2 looking for the same combo in g3 instead keeping opener with disenchant and a turn 2 serra. Promptly lost to 16 lands off the top.
I played a great 2 games against grixis control. Lost to burn and living end... so now I feel like I need to give up. I won't because I love the deck, but man...
I know the sentiment of the format slowing down in general was likely pushing tron into boogeyman status, and this is reflected in the mtgtop8 results for the last two weeks as urza tron variants are the most commonly played control decks. What strikes me though is the near 50% of the meta on the aggro plan. And the other control decks that we generally can just recur into oblivion makes me feel like we may actually be favorable in the meta.
If we can sure up / double up on tron hate that also randomly deals with combo A la pithing needle, maybe we can push our results a bit taking free wins when we can and I guess just hoping to get lucky vs or tougher match ups? Having ano even or even positive match up against 50% of the field too me indicates a favorable scenario. Any other thoughs?
Back to basics with a little flair - here is my most recent build. There are a couple GPTs coming up in my area and i'll be tossing this around I think.
The sideboard will likely be pretty standard, and the student of warfare is very much a flex spot at this point
The notable change to this list is the nim deathmantle. The idea is that it can provide a mid-game bridge to help stall out on the back of the kamis. The synergies are clear and it comes online much earlier than forecasted proc or emeria. While its clearly not intended as an offensive addition, it might also help speed up a hawk beatdown backup plan.
Has anyone else ever given it a shot? I will report back how it goes for me in the coming weeks.
@Mr_BUttons - I have played with crucible of worlds basically since day one. The hard locks with ghost quarter than you can impose underneath a ghostly prison are brutal against a lot of matchups. I love ripping affinities mana base apart with recurring ghost quarters. I have run 4 GQ and 4 Path to exile for so long, it often feels like I am playing with stripmine and the best removal spell in any format.
I have had issues in the past running out of fetchable targets and still not having emeria, the sky ruin out of the deck. So thats annoying, and as a one-of thats not tutorable seeing it sometimes takes time but all in all when I draw it, unless I am in a position where I "NEEDED" something else, its awesome.
Pros
1. puts us closer to 30 life mark off the bat
2. white for martyr
3. Could be synergistic with a Sorin, grim Nemesis win con
Cons
1. Bad in multiples in opening hand
2. Dead if we are already winning
3. Misers card if less than 3/4 in deck
4. an early martyr is likely worth more life
Its probably not good - perhaps allows for a different deck archetype (i.e. not martyr, that happens to utilize ascendant and or ayli).
So the answer is probably that sideboarding is my weakest part of tournament play. In addition to the fact that I find boarding with martyr proc extremely difficult.
The specific answers are probably:
1. Fracturing gust is really my boggles hate card - but against affinity in this configuration I have 5 slots: -elspeth, -bloodbaron, -ayili, -2 sky hussar
2. Similarly, my thought on running the anguished unmaking was against a u/w planeswalker control deck where purge is dead and I have literally no other option outside of the parasite.
I expect it's not optimal. But I generally play the "how do I feel now" sideboard plan, and don't stick to a prescribed method. I'm working on it, but I don't get a ton of tournament practice to learn.
EDIT: Whoops... postmortem lunge is a sorcery...
so maybe we can still make this work with a manamorphose and a footsteps of the goryo, butperhaps I need to just follow along with the class. My confusion about the end state still stands, so any clarification thereof would be great. Thank you! /EDIT1.
I am attempting to leverage Laboratory Maniac as my win condition. I don't know if its good, just seems less "complicated" than the other loops, at least to explain to opponents. To make this work, I am playing with Simian Spirit Guide, and single copy of each Desperate Ritual and Postmortem Lunge.The idea is to execute the "initial state" combo, and when we discard to hand size we can respond to the emrakul, the aeons torn trigger by floating two off of SSG, Desparate for three, then pay 2 life and 3 red to cast the lunge on Laboratory Maniac, then we can draw for the win.However, my problem is that I can't seem to reason how to prevent Griselbrand from exiling at end step, or to setup a state where I can reanimate another copy after the first was exiled. This is my question, what am I missing about the combo, that I can't seem to goldfish myself into the proper gamestate to have Griselbrand to draw during the "discard to handsize" phase of the game (which is used by the Gut Shot combo in other versions).
Anyone have any thoughts on the Lab man kill or my confusion around the execution?
Thank you!
I have been on another deck recently but of the meta shifts because people want to play the winningest decks, I may need to dust off the good Ole proc list...
-1 gideon
-2 ghostly prisons
-1 kami
If I do this then I would:
+1 wrath from the board (move kami to board)
+1 serra ascendant
+1 weathered wayfarer (still not sold as I am more likely to draw one of my 7 colorless lands in the first 3 turns than I am to be on the draw AND mise into wayfarer)
+1 something (I may be on another blessed alliance or oblivion ring effect)
Thank you for the feedback!
Interesting, I always considered GP to be a non-bo with walkers... I will think more about it now...
4 Gideon of the trials
CREATURES (17)
4 martyr of sands
3 serra ascendant
4 squadron hawk
1 sun titan
4 ranger of eos
1 kami of false hope
SPELLS (14)
4 path to exile
3 wrath of god
1 blessed alliance
2 proclamation of rebirth
2 ghostly prison
2 oblivion ring
1 crucible of worlds
LANDS (24)
4 flagstones of trokair
2 Emeria, the sky ruin
2 mistveil plains
4 ghost quarter
3 field of ruin
9 plains
1 wrath of god
2 ghostly prison
3 stony silence
2 pithing needle
2 relic of progenitus
2 nevermore
1 aven mindcensor
2 rule of law
Some choices of note:
1. no weathered wayfarer, 24 lands + crucible - The thought here is two fold. I am going full bore on the "land destruction" plan with the Ghost Quarter + Field of Ruin + Crucible of Worlds, I should not need to tutor for them against tron, but I wanted to maintain a high count of basics along with the 7 colorless producers. The notable issue is possibly around wanting mistveil plains and being unable to tutor for it at will. I am hoping the Ghost Quarter + Flagstones of Trokair takes care of this possible issue.
2. No more than the 4 Gideon of the Trials as well as only 3 Serra Ascendant - One of the issues I have always felt with this deck has been the relative inability to just end the game. It is GREAT at staying alive and I have gone to time many times (due to slow play on my part in many cases). Gideon Of the Trails is amazing at both helping us stay alive AND finishing the game, at worst he is an expensive fog and at best he is the post wrath finisher I think we are missing. The combo with other flavors of Gideon I am not against, but for this weekend I am happy with this thought. The 4th Ascendant is something I have waffled on for a long time. My final justification was: Ascendant is a bad topdeck when we are behind. I would rather have Gideon. Time will tell if this turns out to be correct.
A few other points:
I really wanted the 4th wrath of god, but also wanted blessed alliance, putting the 4th wrath in the side board was a compromise with myself.
I started with only 2 ghostly prisons in the sideboard, but was too much of a chicken to not run the full set somewhere. Every time I have a choice to cast prison or something else I am always disappointed with the decision, I am not sure GotT solves this or not...
Kami of false hope main because he helps protect Gideon, and isn't completely dead if I don't have Gideon. The proc lock is sweet and frustrating for all the creature decks.
Sun Titan I feel is a must (instead of Elspeth, Sun's Champion) with the Gideon plan.
Any thoughts out there from the team?
Long story short, I am really excited to take this out to a tournament in short order.
Edit - full disclosure, I was playing both decks so technically had perfect information. I tried to be objective but likely wasnt completely.
I really like this deck list, I am considering running something very similar, and wanted to get your opinion on the no path plan. Do you ever miss it? I suppose I am generally wanting it against creature based combo decks, but not running any number in a Mono White deck seems borderline blasphemous.
I am thinking how much the effect stacks with the gq and FoRs, and in my list I'll be running crucible for maximum effect.
What's your general thought?
I am playing a gpt this afternoon, I'll report back later.
Edit: not worth reporting on. I lost first match to 52 lands seismic assault + treasure hunt. Talk about feel bad, opponent had no side board because they just started playing and after folding to a turn 1 pithing needle from the board in g2, I didnt mull to 2 looking for the same combo in g3 instead keeping opener with disenchant and a turn 2 serra. Promptly lost to 16 lands off the top.
I played a great 2 games against grixis control. Lost to burn and living end... so now I feel like I need to give up. I won't because I love the deck, but man...
If we can sure up / double up on tron hate that also randomly deals with combo A la pithing needle, maybe we can push our results a bit taking free wins when we can and I guess just hoping to get lucky vs or tougher match ups? Having ano even or even positive match up against 50% of the field too me indicates a favorable scenario. Any other thoughs?
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Kami of False Hope
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Ranger of Eos
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Squadron Hawk
1 Student of Warfare
1 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Path to Exile
//Planeswalker (3)
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
//Sorcery (6)
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
3 Wrath of God
//Artifact (1)
1 Nim Deathmantle
//Land (24)
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Flooded Strand
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Mistveil Plains
1 Mountain
5 Plains
3 Sacred Foundry
The sideboard will likely be pretty standard, and the student of warfare is very much a flex spot at this point
The notable change to this list is the nim deathmantle. The idea is that it can provide a mid-game bridge to help stall out on the back of the kamis. The synergies are clear and it comes online much earlier than forecasted proc or emeria. While its clearly not intended as an offensive addition, it might also help speed up a hawk beatdown backup plan.
Has anyone else ever given it a shot? I will report back how it goes for me in the coming weeks.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/aether-revolt/28176-hidden-stockpile
Makes the squadron hawk loop even more efficient.
Synergy with martyr triggering revolt and being white.
Not completely worthless in multiples.
Nonbo with kami. Kinda.
All of that aside, I think the fact that its a self sustaining engine which increases draw quality makes it worth testing with.
Any thoughts?
Edit: Fixed off site link
I have had issues in the past running out of fetchable targets and still not having emeria, the sky ruin out of the deck. So thats annoying, and as a one-of thats not tutorable seeing it sometimes takes time but all in all when I draw it, unless I am in a position where I "NEEDED" something else, its awesome.
Pros
1. puts us closer to 30 life mark off the bat
2. white for martyr
3. Could be synergistic with a Sorin, grim Nemesis win con
Cons
1. Bad in multiples in opening hand
2. Dead if we are already winning
3. Misers card if less than 3/4 in deck
4. an early martyr is likely worth more life
Its probably not good - perhaps allows for a different deck archetype (i.e. not martyr, that happens to utilize ascendant and or ayli).
The specific answers are probably:
1. Fracturing gust is really my boggles hate card - but against affinity in this configuration I have 5 slots: -elspeth, -bloodbaron, -ayili, -2 sky hussar
2. Similarly, my thought on running the anguished unmaking was against a u/w planeswalker control deck where purge is dead and I have literally no other option outside of the parasite.
I expect it's not optimal. But I generally play the "how do I feel now" sideboard plan, and don't stick to a prescribed method. I'm working on it, but I don't get a ton of tournament practice to learn.