In addition to that, when you have 2 blue lands and a mana rock, if you have Talisman you can cast Whir of Invention but with Dimir Signet you can not.
@DegenerateEE: Going to the New England Regionals? If so I'll see you there! I agree with Trav34 here. Only 2 Mishra's Baubles seems wrong. You should play all 4. Play either 4 Ideas Unbound or 4 Serum Visions. I wouldn't do 2 of each. If you want the effect that Inquistion of Kozelik provides you should play 4+. Otherwise play zero. It is significantly worse when it isn't a reliable part of your game plan. Dimir Signet is worse than Talisman of Dominance in nearly every scenario besides needing to cast Tezzeret or Foundry while only having one other colored source. Given that you only run three colorless sources it is very unlikely you draw two of them without another colored land and IF you did that should have been a mulligan anyway.
@Magpie842: Just math. To reach 90% confidence on Faithless Looting you need 14 and you have 13. You need 22 for Whir and you have 19. Those numbers are close enough to cast your spells. A little more post turn 2 fixing would help the Whir numbers. Talisman of Dominance
Probably not important but something I just thought of. Scrawp Trawler plus the combo and 2 Mox Opals lets you go infinite. Use the Mox Opal to sacrifice Sword of the Meek to Thopter Foundry. Sword of the Meek trigger, Scrap Trawler Trigger, return a Mox Opal. Repeat. When you area already playing all of the other cards you would only need to put a single Scrap Trawler in the deck. You are probably better off getting KCI and Time Seive but food for thought.
@Magpie842: I actually like the look of that Grixis list. I may try out something like that tonight. However I don't think you need the Navigator's Compass. You already meet the requirements to cast faithless Looting on turn one/two without it and you won't be able to use it to help you cast a turn 1 faithless looting. Outside of that it helps you cast Whir but every land in your deck outside of Academy Ruins and Inventor's Fair will cast Whir so it did nothing unless you had one of those two lands in play.
Other thoughts, why not play Sorcerous Spyglass and Tormod's Crypt over your 1 cmc artifacts given that you have 4 Chalice in the sideboard? Do you have a plan that involves always taking them out when Chalice comes in? I imagine their are some matchups like Gx Tron where you want the chalices and the needle effects in your deck.
Thoughts on cutting compass for actual mana rocks? Play the fourth Mox Opal and maybe 2 Talismans. This also works with the sideboard blood moon plan. Right now it seems near impossible to cast Whir while boarding in Blood Moon. Maybe cut the Glimmervoid and Inventor's Fair for a fourth Island and the fourth Scalding Tarn if you want to be on the Blood Moon plan.
I've had a good amount of success with playing 3 Chalices (still hovering around 65-70% Match Win percentage, but haven't played much in the last couple weeks). I dunno about Karn, but chalice is sweet. I'd say UB (with a green or white splash in the board) is still my preferred build. I've tried out the Ideas Unbound builds a little, and while I've liked Ideas Unbound a lot more than I thought I would, I didn't like some of the other stuff like the lingering souls, or the lack of Tezzeret. I still can't really justify cutting Tezzeret, he just wins games way too often for me, and is especially important for beating stuff like Stony Silence/Rest in Peace/Leyline of the Void. Tezzeret just won me a match where my opponent played Stony, RiP, Ghostly Prison, and Kataki, doubt I could have won that without Tezz. Plus I've got good mileage out of the other 4 drops in Witchbane Orb and Bottled Cloister. I'd be more ok with cutting those, but I'm still hesitant.
I've never been crazy fond of the 1 drops in the deck anyway. Like Serum Visions or Discard are fine, and probably more consistently solid cards, but I prefer chalice which can be backbreaking in some matchups, at a cost of being poor in other matchups. Then I only play two 1 drops, needle & either relic or cage.
I'm not really sure I can fit Ideas Unbound into my chalice build though.
Sounds like what I am working towards currently. Got a list?
@TheNobodys: You make a good point about talisman. I'll have to give that a go. What did your manabase for grixis look like? Can you play Glimmervoid with any success? You would need close to 14 zeros if you wanted to play Glimmervoid and cast a Faithless Looting with it on turn one. Something like this should work regardless though.
A player much better than me (some pro player, can't remember who right now) wrote an article about how in MTG you want to be either MUCH fast than your opponent (This appears to be the turbo Thopter/Sword Ideas Unbound builds) or you want to be slightly slower than your opponent. Too slow and they kill you and not fast enough they stop you. I am working on the opposite side of the spectrum trying to be slightly slower.
I went 3-1 beating Burn twice and Eldrazi Tron once, lost a very unfortunate game 3 to Dredge. The package of 4 Mox Opal, 4 Darksteel Citadel, 4 Mishra's Bauble, +4-5 other 0-1 CMC artifacts felt very strong. I had 2 mana on turn 1 way more often than I expected to. However I struggled to cast Whir of Invention multiple times through out the night. I have been off main deck removal for a long time and thought I would try it again. Probably still not the best call but Collective Brutallity was great against Burn.
Going forward I want to cut the Fatal Pushes and Cast Downs. Never drew Lotv so I am going to continue to play her until I can collect more information. In place of those 5 cards I am cutting I want to try 4 Chalice of the Void and another blue land. Maybe I can get away with a Gemstone Caverns instead though :). That would mean I also need to switch out Nihil Spellbomb and Pithing Needle. I can replace Pithing Needle with Sorcerous Spyglass but I think I will move the second Welding Jar to the main deck over a different grave hate card like Tormod's Crypt. My sideboard overall needs a little more tuning but my local meta is in a weird spot right now.
Who do we have representing team tezzerator at Regionals?! I will be going for NE.
@TheNobodys: I too have been pretty frustrated by storm. Against a storm pilot unfamiliar with Whir decks you can whir a Nihil Spellbomb into play with past in flames on the stack for a cheap win but the good pilots play around this. In addition to that it is super hard on mtgo to know what skill level your opponent is early on. Dampening Sphere helps but like you mentioned finding it on time is a chore.
My best advice is to play a Grafdigger's Cage as well and don't board out all of your bridges. Sometimes you can reach 1 cmc with Whir but not 2 and having that out is nice.
@racing089 What did you think of the ideas unbound? Was it effective when you tested it?
If you don't want my input then why ask for it? If you want dialogue then lets have it. I post reasoning/questions, even provided some advice. You and OFWGKTA reply essentially "no. your wrong." How is that going to forward a competitive mind set?
If you have tested it so much please explain to me and everyone else here skeptical of this build what it is doing then. I have not tested specifically Ideas Unbound but I have most all of the cards that fill the same roll. What makes it better than Thirst for Knowledge, Reverse Engineer, Thoughtcast, Serum Visions. If you want a fast and powerful discard outlet for Sword of the Meek what makes it better than Collective Brutality, Chart a Course, Faithless Looting? What problems is Ideas Unbound solving that these cards could not? What benefit is there to putting it into the deck?
You yourself said you wanted to discuss maximum tournament viability. The Nobodys is the only person I have seen put up any results with Ideas Unbound/Steelshaper's Gift and until I see more results the UBx Tezzeret shells have proven themselves more capable and consistent. The whole idea of the tezzerator deck is that in games 2/3 when your opponent brings the hate you have alternate means of victory and attack. The current U/W lists forgo an alternate win condition for the fast Thopter/Sword games and fold HARD to the hate. There are 2 cards in the 75 to beat a deck through a stony silence, 3 cards if you don't have an Ensnaring Bridge on the table and only 3 sorceries to kill Kataki out of the board of humans which has already wrecked havoc on your board before you get to kill it.
I am sure if the tech is legit The Nobodys will figure it out and continue to post 5-0 results, which will lead to more people trying the deck.
@racing089 I don’t like or value your input because you don’t actually test and then talk based on your theorizing which is basically useless to any progressive conversation.
I do PLENTY of testing. I just never report back until I think I have found something better than the established norm. I have been focusing mostly on the effect of Dampening Sphere in the deck and the possibilities of playing Chalice of the Void. Now that we have Sorcerous Spyglass and Cast Down skipping the 1 cmc isn't as terrible. I have been looking for ways to play Karn, Scion of Urza in the deck with no progress. Have been testing Thirst For Knowledge builds again that are slower with more removal.
@boomforest: I simply didn't understand what problem Ideas Unbound was solving for us. In the early turns it is card disadvantage, parity if you get lucky and loot away a Sword of the Meek. It also competes for an already very crowded 2 CMC slot. In the late I see the advantages but then I would much rather have Reverse Engineer. If the purpose of the card was to filter our draws Serum Visions does about 90% of the job while only costing 50% of the mana. Now I understand you started playing Lingering Souls to get additional value out of Ideas of Unbound but you shouldn't need to change the deck to support the card, and at that I believe Lingering Souls was even cut from the final form of the Ideas Unbound list.
It just seems like someone wants to be casting Faithless Looting but couldn't swing the red in my opinion. For those of you that are committing to Ideas Unbound, why not go all the way? Main deck a Crucible of Worlds and utility lands so you can ditch lands and get them back. Play 2x Academy Ruins to get things back. I saw someone mention trying out a Gifts build which is cool because you can bin reanimator targets now as well.
My experience in white was short lived and comes full circle in this discussion. I think abrupt decay is too valuable out of the board not to play but I tested a white version with SFM in anticipation of an unban. The deck was very interesting and I kind of liked it. Closer to an esper stoneblade list than what we are currently playing with but it was strong enough that we would have to play it in my opinion. However until SFM comes unbanned I think we are better off without white. The major draw to white is always the sideboard haymakers that we can't play like Stony Silence and Rest in Peace.
To be fair these threads are supposed to discuss maximum tournament viability, not factors like color preference or budget.
Nobody is forcing anyone to play a different version of a deck, but as far as the turbo build of the deck the white/ideas unbound addition is really powerful and a significant positive push toward viability.
I disagree that the white splash (and ideas unbound) is a powerful addition. Lets give it more time to prove itself before jumping to conclusions.
Also tcg requiem, racing, and systrill when are guys going to make more vids. I really enjoyed and appreciated your content.thank you for making the ones you did.
Unfortunately I sold out of MTGO. I wasn't getting to play it as much as I had hoped. In addition to that JTMS got unbanned and I didn't want to spend anymore money on it. I know some here say they don't like JTMS in the deck but I am of the opinion that he is straight busted here. Bought my first playset of Tarmogoyfs instead and have been trying the sultai/jund life. Probably going back to tezzerator for dampening sphere this week though.
- Replaced the cover picture of JTMS to Mox Opal. I am still hard on JTMS but I appear to be the only one
- Added sections for Ideas Unbound, Blood Moon, Disenchant, Sorcerers Spyglass, Dampning Sphere, Expedition Map, Field of Ruin, Trophy Mage, Cast Down
- Tweaked the wording of some sections and formatting
- Updated the mana base construction section to better accommodate Whir of Invention because that seems to be where we are all at now
- Added Dampening Sphere and Spellskite tricks to the Whir tricks section.
Other thoughts, why not play Sorcerous Spyglass and Tormod's Crypt over your 1 cmc artifacts given that you have 4 Chalice in the sideboard? Do you have a plan that involves always taking them out when Chalice comes in? I imagine their are some matchups like Gx Tron where you want the chalices and the needle effects in your deck.
Thoughts on cutting compass for actual mana rocks? Play the fourth Mox Opal and maybe 2 Talismans. This also works with the sideboard blood moon plan. Right now it seems near impossible to cast Whir while boarding in Blood Moon. Maybe cut the Glimmervoid and Inventor's Fair for a fourth Island and the fourth Scalding Tarn if you want to be on the Blood Moon plan.
Sounds like what I am working towards currently. Got a list?
1 Academy Ruins
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Spire of Industry
3 Watery Grave
Artifacts:
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Welding Jar
2 Cast Down
2 Collective Brutality
3 Fatal Push
4 Whir of Invention
Planeswalkers:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Damnation
2 Damping Sphere
1 Fatal Push
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spellskite
1 Welding Jar
1 Witchbane Orb
A player much better than me (some pro player, can't remember who right now) wrote an article about how in MTG you want to be either MUCH fast than your opponent (This appears to be the turbo Thopter/Sword Ideas Unbound builds) or you want to be slightly slower than your opponent. Too slow and they kill you and not fast enough they stop you. I am working on the opposite side of the spectrum trying to be slightly slower.
I went 3-1 beating Burn twice and Eldrazi Tron once, lost a very unfortunate game 3 to Dredge. The package of 4 Mox Opal, 4 Darksteel Citadel, 4 Mishra's Bauble, +4-5 other 0-1 CMC artifacts felt very strong. I had 2 mana on turn 1 way more often than I expected to. However I struggled to cast Whir of Invention multiple times through out the night. I have been off main deck removal for a long time and thought I would try it again. Probably still not the best call but Collective Brutallity was great against Burn.
Going forward I want to cut the Fatal Pushes and Cast Downs. Never drew Lotv so I am going to continue to play her until I can collect more information. In place of those 5 cards I am cutting I want to try 4 Chalice of the Void and another blue land. Maybe I can get away with a Gemstone Caverns instead though :). That would mean I also need to switch out Nihil Spellbomb and Pithing Needle. I can replace Pithing Needle with Sorcerous Spyglass but I think I will move the second Welding Jar to the main deck over a different grave hate card like Tormod's Crypt. My sideboard overall needs a little more tuning but my local meta is in a weird spot right now.
Who do we have representing team tezzerator at Regionals?! I will be going for NE.
My best advice is to play a Grafdigger's Cage as well and don't board out all of your bridges. Sometimes you can reach 1 cmc with Whir but not 2 and having that out is nice.
If you don't want my input then why ask for it? If you want dialogue then lets have it. I post reasoning/questions, even provided some advice. You and OFWGKTA reply essentially "no. your wrong." How is that going to forward a competitive mind set?
If you have tested it so much please explain to me and everyone else here skeptical of this build what it is doing then. I have not tested specifically Ideas Unbound but I have most all of the cards that fill the same roll. What makes it better than Thirst for Knowledge, Reverse Engineer, Thoughtcast, Serum Visions. If you want a fast and powerful discard outlet for Sword of the Meek what makes it better than Collective Brutality, Chart a Course, Faithless Looting? What problems is Ideas Unbound solving that these cards could not? What benefit is there to putting it into the deck?
You yourself said you wanted to discuss maximum tournament viability. The Nobodys is the only person I have seen put up any results with Ideas Unbound/Steelshaper's Gift and until I see more results the UBx Tezzeret shells have proven themselves more capable and consistent. The whole idea of the tezzerator deck is that in games 2/3 when your opponent brings the hate you have alternate means of victory and attack. The current U/W lists forgo an alternate win condition for the fast Thopter/Sword games and fold HARD to the hate. There are 2 cards in the 75 to beat a deck through a stony silence, 3 cards if you don't have an Ensnaring Bridge on the table and only 3 sorceries to kill Kataki out of the board of humans which has already wrecked havoc on your board before you get to kill it.
I am sure if the tech is legit The Nobodys will figure it out and continue to post 5-0 results, which will lead to more people trying the deck.
I do PLENTY of testing. I just never report back until I think I have found something better than the established norm. I have been focusing mostly on the effect of Dampening Sphere in the deck and the possibilities of playing Chalice of the Void. Now that we have Sorcerous Spyglass and Cast Down skipping the 1 cmc isn't as terrible. I have been looking for ways to play Karn, Scion of Urza in the deck with no progress. Have been testing Thirst For Knowledge builds again that are slower with more removal.
It just seems like someone wants to be casting Faithless Looting but couldn't swing the red in my opinion.
Actual Real Dinosaur of a list (pre-dates Thopter/Sword unbanning): https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-quintessential-modern-tezz-gifts-faq/
I disagree that the white splash (and ideas unbound) is a powerful addition. Lets give it more time to prove itself before jumping to conclusions.
Unfortunately I sold out of MTGO. I wasn't getting to play it as much as I had hoped. In addition to that JTMS got unbanned and I didn't want to spend anymore money on it. I know some here say they don't like JTMS in the deck but I am of the opinion that he is straight busted here. Bought my first playset of Tarmogoyfs instead and have been trying the sultai/jund life. Probably going back to tezzerator for dampening sphere this week though.