Can someone explain to me why almost everyone doesn't play bob in abzan? I really don't get it.
I see a lot of pro's using bob in abzan, like duke and others, and yet the abzan meta seems to be way over 90% no bob lists.
I hear it all the time: 'oh you can't run bob because rhino is too painful' - yet nobody runs more than 2 4 drops anyway. All rock and jund lists run atleast 1 4 drop aswell (jund uses 2 a lot of times) and that doesn't stop them for using bob. In fact abzan is even better at life gain, since rhino immediately heals you for 3 when you cast it and in abzan you also have access to the life gain BW lands.
If you look at this image you can see that by cutting 1 souls and the flayers for confidant I fail to see how is it too painful to run bob in abzan?
As someone who is (very) slowly buying into the BGx shell, I've been wondering the same. Bob seems like a really great card and I would ideally like to play with him. Is he not in Abzan because those games tend to go longer as opposed to Jund which tries to close the game quicker?
The reason that Dark Confidant is not as prevalent as it used to be is sort of twofold. The first reason is that Grim Flayer has taken its place in Junk lists and the second reason is that Junk is arguably more prevalent than Jund/The Rock right now (so Dark Confidant will show up less). I would argue that people who are saying the reason is due to Dark Confidant being too self damaging to run are not correct.
Dark Confidant is an amazing card and historically has been central to this deck archetype. However, metas are always evolving and different cards are being printed. Specifically, the combination of Grim Flayer and Tireless Tracker has given this archetype a new option for the role that Dark Confidant fills. Grim Flayer lets you filter cards and it gets big if you have delirium, while Tireless Tracker turns your end game land topdecks into card draw and gets bigger as you do it. Mostly, though, the focus is going to be on Grim Flayer with Tireless Tracker being a situationally used card.
So the question becomes, "okay, which ones are better?" and the answer seems to be that Grim Flayer is better in Junk shells. One of the main reasons for this is Lingering Souls. Throwing it into the graveyard does mean that you miss out on casting it twice, but at the same time you're still getting card advantage because you're able to put it in your graveyard and cast it while still drawing a different card next turn. When you're in top deck mode, that is half of an extra card and it is specifically one of the best cards in the deck that you're getting. As I said above, I do not believe that the reason is because of Siege Rhino or any other four CMC card; I believe it is almost entirely because of the synergy with Lingering Souls. The fact that Lingering Souls is white explains, in my opinion, why Grim Flayer is prevalent in Junk but Dark Confidant is still used in Jund and The Rock.
As I said above, I think it is situational as to whether Dark Confidant or Grim Flayer is better, but I think that there's empirical evidence to back up the fact that Grim Flayer works out very well in Junk. I outlined this above in a comment about Traverse vs regular Junk, but Grim Flayer is run in between 89% and 95% of Junk decks according to MTGTop8 and MTGgoldfish, respectively. To that extent, it isn't like people stopped running Dark Confidant randomly, they stopped running it when Grim Flayer was printed, so really the question should come down to analyzing which one is better. Jund is definitely more aggressive and wants to end the game faster, so actual card draw at the cost of life seems much better. Being able to throw away dead cards, order the rest of your draws and the occasional half card advantage with Lingering Souls are a lot better in the grindy endgame Junk wants.
There's also the fact that Grim Flayer is significantly cheaper (in terms of buying the card) than Dark Confidant. If you are buying into the BG/X shell, Grim Flayer is a great investment and can make throwing down $800 on Liliana of the Veils and Tarmogoyfs a lot easier since you don't also have to throw down $200 on Dark Confidants.
What are the pros and cons of a traverse Build with flayer, and is it better than a regular Junk build with Flayer? just askin'
A Traverse build is built with Delirium in mind. Traverse the Ulvenwald and Grim Flayer both want it. Flayer is more in-tune with a Traverse build than a standard build although he is sometimes used in standard-ish bulds as well.
Buuut I'm just guessing.
I am going to have to disagree with "sometimes"; Grim Flayer has become a maindeck card in almost all Abzan builds. For the regular Abzan shell, Top8 has 19 decks listed and only two of them don't run any Grim Flayers, with the rest running x3 or x4, that's about 89% main decking the card. MTGGoldfish has an average of x3 Grim Flayers for 95% of decks. The card has, in a lot of cases, replaced Dark Confidant, which only showed in three of the Top8 listed decks. I don't think you can justifiably posit that the card is "sometimes" used in these decks. The "ish" qualification of "standard-ish" also confuses me because the decks that are running Grim Flayer are the standard decks: Tarmogoyfs, Liliana of the Veils, Fatal Pushs, Inquisition of Kozileks, Lingering Souls', Abrupt Decays, etc. I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that a deck full of fetch lands, creatures, instants, sorceries, and Planeswalkers has a hard enough time getting delirium online as to make it not worth running one of the best BG cards ever printed, but that is assuredly not the case. Yes, a Traverse the Ulvenwald build has more options (really just maindecking Mishra's Bauble to get an artifact) to get delirium online more consistently, but that doesn't mean that Grim Flayer isn't ubiquitous in the regular build.
Yeah but is a Abzan traverse list better than normal jund?
(I am assuming you mean Junk instead of Jund, since that's what you asked about first and this is the Junk thread.) No, in terms of results it doesn't seem to be doing any better. If you break down the differences between the decks, a Traverse deck has less creatures and less lands, instead opting to put in main deck x4 Traverse the Ulvenwald and x4 Mishra's Bauble. The entire point of a Traverse deck is to get delirium and then go and fetch either something like Ghost Quarter or Bojuka Bog, or one of your big, scary creatures, like a Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet for example. Due to the fact that this archetypal deck is about answering threats, getting the game into topdeck mode, and then winning based off the value of your draws vs. the value of your opponent's, the hope is that being able to get a specific threat with Traverse the Ulvenwald will help you get out ahead even better than relying on a random top deck. Of course, there is always the possibility that you can cast a delirium Traverse the Ulvenwald even before you're top decking, which is very good. Some people who do like this deck have tried to play it more aggressively, trying to get delirium as fast as is possible and then rushing in with a lot of creatures, so as to never even get to a topdeck war.
The reason why I believe this deck is far worse than a regular Junk build is because that strategy just isn't as powerful as it seems to be. You are taking out lands from your deck to make room for a ramp spell, but that spell might not even be used to ramp in most cases since you want it to tutor a creature in the best case scenario. You also are taking away four spell slots to fit in Mishra's Bauble which, yes that card is amazing don't get me wrong, but I would much rather have those four slots in the deck be devoted to disruption or more creatures. It should also be stated that this deck is incredibly fragile to graveyard hate. If your entire plan is to get off a really fast delirium Traverse the Ulvenwald, what happens when they turn 3 Rest In Peace and you now have zero card types in your graveyard and at best three card types in your hand? What if you had delirium when that happened and were holding on to three Traverse the Ulvenwald for your next turn? You now have to completely rework your strategy for getting delirium online, and a lot of how it happens is based off of topdecking. Yes, graveyard hate hits the regular deck too, hosing Tarmogoyf sucks, but when your entire deck is based around delirium, having Grim Flayer, Tarmogoyf, and Traverse the Ulvenwald at suboptimal strength midway through a game is game-losing.
I would be remiss to not point out that there are people that have been successful with the deck, but the deck hasn't been nearly as successful as its sister decks, BG/x midrange and Death's Shadow. In a lot of ways, the Traverse build seems like it's halfway between a regular Junk deck and a Death's Shadow deck, but it doesn't have the same amount of grinding potential that Abzan does and it doesn't have the explosive speed of Death's Shadow.
That's how I see the deck and how I compare the two.
Grim Flayer is an all around great card and you do not need to build an entire deck around delirium for it to be good. Right now regular Junk builds use it more than they use Dark Confidant, that should be all the information you need. In my opinion, the sacrifices to the deck and game plan that you have to make to run a Traverse deck instead of a regular Junk deck do not make having a consistent delirium worth it, especially since there is more than enough support in the regular deck to get delirium on in most games.
Today I read a wilt-leaf abzan article, where wilt-leaf liege was considered a very good card.
This makes me wonder, what makes Creakwood liege an EDH-only tier card?
Shouldn't it be pretty good, especially with Grim Flayer?
And the fact that it makes 3/3 tokens?
The main argument I've heard in the past is, it's not bolt-proof. But I haven't seen a bolt in months.
If you mean in particular why isn't it a good card in this deck, I'd say that it's a four drop card that doesn't flat out win you the game. A lot of decks have been pushing out four drops, trimming Siege Rhino down to a two-of, give the pressure of the current meta. I wouldn't want a Creakwood Liege in my deck if I was playing against tron, I wouldn't want it if I was playing against any of the Death's shadow decks, and I wouldn't want it against affinity or eldrazi either. Siege Rhino gives you a Lightning Helix at worst, that plus something to trade with in an okay situation, and a clock at best. Creakwood Liege at worst is just removed and you wasted a card and four mana, in an okay situation he gives you one 3/3 per turn, and at best he makes your Grim Flayer a 4/4 or a 6/6 and at best he gives you one 3/3 per turn; I'd rather have a rhino in that situation. I'm interested to hear if anyone thinks there is a matchup where that would be useful in, however. Maybe the mirror or a mirror against the same archetype? But even then, there are higher value four-drops.
@chikkenbacon thank you so much for your response!
I totally understand what you mean about Wurmcoil Engine, it isn't exactly a super star for synergy in this deck. Maybe it is because of my meta but I have done pretty well with that card in the testing that I've done. It wasn't synergy that made it work well, it was just the cards value as a body and its tokens. Also you are completely right, I can't believe that I forgot about Rune-scarred Demon when making this deck, recurable tutoring is insane.
And I see your argument with Awakening Zone. The reason I like Golgari Germination is because of opportunities to get two or three tokens a turn with something like Gravecrawler or Bloodsoaked Champion. That being said, you are right about the consistency, and the added ramp is great as well. What do you think about Awakening Zone vs. From Beyond? I am wondering if the extra tutoring is worth it, maybe not if I'm only running a few eldrazi and already have a lot of tutoring, especially with Rune-scarred.
I recently finished a list for Meren that I think will get some pretty good results. There are some reanimation targets in Sheoldred, Whispering OneUlamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and some others. An infinite combo can be done with Gravecrawler another zombie Phyrexian Altar and Zulaport Cutthroat. Lastly, I always loved aristocrats as a deck and I felt like Meren is the perfect opportunity for a competitive recursion engine. Nantuko Husk and Carrion Feeder work as aristocrat beaters while Vengevine and Bloodghast are great recursive beaters. The rest of the deck sets up sac outlets and Azazels in support of a beat down victory. One of my favorite things about this deck is that even if the previously mentioned strategies don't pan out, there is still a chance of a beat down victory given the amount of life gain and support everything else can give. I am working on writing a semi primer for the deck on the tappedout page though, so any input anyone can give would be great!
A few people, myself included, discussed this topic about a page back
The reason that Dark Confidant is not as prevalent as it used to be is sort of twofold. The first reason is that Grim Flayer has taken its place in Junk lists and the second reason is that Junk is arguably more prevalent than Jund/The Rock right now (so Dark Confidant will show up less). I would argue that people who are saying the reason is due to Dark Confidant being too self damaging to run are not correct.
Dark Confidant is an amazing card and historically has been central to this deck archetype. However, metas are always evolving and different cards are being printed. Specifically, the combination of Grim Flayer and Tireless Tracker has given this archetype a new option for the role that Dark Confidant fills. Grim Flayer lets you filter cards and it gets big if you have delirium, while Tireless Tracker turns your end game land topdecks into card draw and gets bigger as you do it. Mostly, though, the focus is going to be on Grim Flayer with Tireless Tracker being a situationally used card.
So the question becomes, "okay, which ones are better?" and the answer seems to be that Grim Flayer is better in Junk shells. One of the main reasons for this is Lingering Souls. Throwing it into the graveyard does mean that you miss out on casting it twice, but at the same time you're still getting card advantage because you're able to put it in your graveyard and cast it while still drawing a different card next turn. When you're in top deck mode, that is half of an extra card and it is specifically one of the best cards in the deck that you're getting. As I said above, I do not believe that the reason is because of Siege Rhino or any other four CMC card; I believe it is almost entirely because of the synergy with Lingering Souls. The fact that Lingering Souls is white explains, in my opinion, why Grim Flayer is prevalent in Junk but Dark Confidant is still used in Jund and The Rock.
As I said above, I think it is situational as to whether Dark Confidant or Grim Flayer is better, but I think that there's empirical evidence to back up the fact that Grim Flayer works out very well in Junk. I outlined this above in a comment about Traverse vs regular Junk, but Grim Flayer is run in between 89% and 95% of Junk decks according to MTGTop8 and MTGgoldfish, respectively. To that extent, it isn't like people stopped running Dark Confidant randomly, they stopped running it when Grim Flayer was printed, so really the question should come down to analyzing which one is better. Jund is definitely more aggressive and wants to end the game faster, so actual card draw at the cost of life seems much better. Being able to throw away dead cards, order the rest of your draws and the occasional half card advantage with Lingering Souls are a lot better in the grindy endgame Junk wants.
There's also the fact that Grim Flayer is significantly cheaper (in terms of buying the card) than Dark Confidant. If you are buying into the BG/X shell, Grim Flayer is a great investment and can make throwing down $800 on Liliana of the Veils and Tarmogoyfs a lot easier since you don't also have to throw down $200 on Dark Confidants.
I am going to have to disagree with "sometimes"; Grim Flayer has become a maindeck card in almost all Abzan builds. For the regular Abzan shell, Top8 has 19 decks listed and only two of them don't run any Grim Flayers, with the rest running x3 or x4, that's about 89% main decking the card. MTGGoldfish has an average of x3 Grim Flayers for 95% of decks. The card has, in a lot of cases, replaced Dark Confidant, which only showed in three of the Top8 listed decks. I don't think you can justifiably posit that the card is "sometimes" used in these decks. The "ish" qualification of "standard-ish" also confuses me because the decks that are running Grim Flayer are the standard decks: Tarmogoyfs, Liliana of the Veils, Fatal Pushs, Inquisition of Kozileks, Lingering Souls', Abrupt Decays, etc. I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that a deck full of fetch lands, creatures, instants, sorceries, and Planeswalkers has a hard enough time getting delirium online as to make it not worth running one of the best BG cards ever printed, but that is assuredly not the case. Yes, a Traverse the Ulvenwald build has more options (really just maindecking Mishra's Bauble to get an artifact) to get delirium online more consistently, but that doesn't mean that Grim Flayer isn't ubiquitous in the regular build.
(I am assuming you mean Junk instead of Jund, since that's what you asked about first and this is the Junk thread.) No, in terms of results it doesn't seem to be doing any better. If you break down the differences between the decks, a Traverse deck has less creatures and less lands, instead opting to put in main deck x4 Traverse the Ulvenwald and x4 Mishra's Bauble. The entire point of a Traverse deck is to get delirium and then go and fetch either something like Ghost Quarter or Bojuka Bog, or one of your big, scary creatures, like a Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet for example. Due to the fact that this archetypal deck is about answering threats, getting the game into topdeck mode, and then winning based off the value of your draws vs. the value of your opponent's, the hope is that being able to get a specific threat with Traverse the Ulvenwald will help you get out ahead even better than relying on a random top deck. Of course, there is always the possibility that you can cast a delirium Traverse the Ulvenwald even before you're top decking, which is very good. Some people who do like this deck have tried to play it more aggressively, trying to get delirium as fast as is possible and then rushing in with a lot of creatures, so as to never even get to a topdeck war.
The reason why I believe this deck is far worse than a regular Junk build is because that strategy just isn't as powerful as it seems to be. You are taking out lands from your deck to make room for a ramp spell, but that spell might not even be used to ramp in most cases since you want it to tutor a creature in the best case scenario. You also are taking away four spell slots to fit in Mishra's Bauble which, yes that card is amazing don't get me wrong, but I would much rather have those four slots in the deck be devoted to disruption or more creatures. It should also be stated that this deck is incredibly fragile to graveyard hate. If your entire plan is to get off a really fast delirium Traverse the Ulvenwald, what happens when they turn 3 Rest In Peace and you now have zero card types in your graveyard and at best three card types in your hand? What if you had delirium when that happened and were holding on to three Traverse the Ulvenwald for your next turn? You now have to completely rework your strategy for getting delirium online, and a lot of how it happens is based off of topdecking. Yes, graveyard hate hits the regular deck too, hosing Tarmogoyf sucks, but when your entire deck is based around delirium, having Grim Flayer, Tarmogoyf, and Traverse the Ulvenwald at suboptimal strength midway through a game is game-losing.
I would be remiss to not point out that there are people that have been successful with the deck, but the deck hasn't been nearly as successful as its sister decks, BG/x midrange and Death's Shadow. In a lot of ways, the Traverse build seems like it's halfway between a regular Junk deck and a Death's Shadow deck, but it doesn't have the same amount of grinding potential that Abzan does and it doesn't have the explosive speed of Death's Shadow.
That's how I see the deck and how I compare the two.
Grim Flayer is an all around great card and you do not need to build an entire deck around delirium for it to be good. Right now regular Junk builds use it more than they use Dark Confidant, that should be all the information you need. In my opinion, the sacrifices to the deck and game plan that you have to make to run a Traverse deck instead of a regular Junk deck do not make having a consistent delirium worth it, especially since there is more than enough support in the regular deck to get delirium on in most games.
If you mean in particular why isn't it a good card in this deck, I'd say that it's a four drop card that doesn't flat out win you the game. A lot of decks have been pushing out four drops, trimming Siege Rhino down to a two-of, give the pressure of the current meta. I wouldn't want a Creakwood Liege in my deck if I was playing against tron, I wouldn't want it if I was playing against any of the Death's shadow decks, and I wouldn't want it against affinity or eldrazi either. Siege Rhino gives you a Lightning Helix at worst, that plus something to trade with in an okay situation, and a clock at best. Creakwood Liege at worst is just removed and you wasted a card and four mana, in an okay situation he gives you one 3/3 per turn, and at best he makes your Grim Flayer a 4/4 or a 6/6 and at best he gives you one 3/3 per turn; I'd rather have a rhino in that situation. I'm interested to hear if anyone thinks there is a matchup where that would be useful in, however. Maybe the mirror or a mirror against the same archetype? But even then, there are higher value four-drops.
I totally understand what you mean about Wurmcoil Engine, it isn't exactly a super star for synergy in this deck. Maybe it is because of my meta but I have done pretty well with that card in the testing that I've done. It wasn't synergy that made it work well, it was just the cards value as a body and its tokens. Also you are completely right, I can't believe that I forgot about Rune-scarred Demon when making this deck, recurable tutoring is insane.
And I see your argument with Awakening Zone. The reason I like Golgari Germination is because of opportunities to get two or three tokens a turn with something like Gravecrawler or Bloodsoaked Champion. That being said, you are right about the consistency, and the added ramp is great as well. What do you think about Awakening Zone vs. From Beyond? I am wondering if the extra tutoring is worth it, maybe not if I'm only running a few eldrazi and already have a lot of tutoring, especially with Rune-scarred.