Kizzel: there's a dude at my LGS who's been having some luck with Double Dragon, though I don't think he runs Sarkhan.
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I haven't been playing much Modern recently, but my LGS is doing a 1K in a couple weeks so it's time to dust off the Skreds. A couple questions:
- Are you guys pretty much onboard with Abrade? I've been on 3 Magma Jet for a while; I think I'm gonna make 2 into Abrades, and maybe add another 1-2 Abrades in the board.
- Am I correct in assuming Damping Sphere didn't really change the equation against Tron? I've always held that our slow clock is the real problem against them, and that Sphere doesn't bring anything new to the table.
Nice run, DarthFrog! While I don't agree with all of your conclusions, I still love the innovation I'm seeing in that list. Some thoughts:
- I tried out Chandra Pyromaster the other day, and was also unimpressed.
- Bridge in the board seems cool in general; I imagine it'd be even better if you were on Koth (his ultimate is another way to win the game under a Bridge).
- Abrade seems great here.
- I think Storm is a matchup that will suffer because you've cut Koth. Our removal, Relics, and Dragon's Claws do a surprising amount of disruption, but you still need to close the game. Sideboard Rabblemasters help, but Koth is your fastest maindeck finisher.
t, if the meta evolves slower (which happens with fewer players, but isn't the only cause), then people stagnate into the same few successful decks and prices on those cards increase while everything else drops.
Legacy's price issues are largely tied to the RL choking off the manabase. I don't think meta stagnation has much to do with it.
Have you considered going down 1 dragons claw and 1 shattering spree and testing out witchbane orb? It's done wonders for me on many occasions while adding more utility to our board (but still hosing burn). Just some thoughts.
Witchbane's an interesting thought - maybe I'll give that a try!
In response to TexasGoyf regarding Kozilek's Return : are you sure this is the best sideboard card againts human ? They can grow pretty fast out of the 2Dmg range, and some humans are already naturally 3 toughness (reflector). I don't see how instant speed makes it better than Anger of the Gods, could you explain ? :
Kozilek's Return is absolutely not the best card against 5C Humans, but it's OK against them and very good in some other matchups (Elves, Affinity, Infect, etc). Almost every Skred list runs 3 maindeck Anger, so Kozilek's Return is just added insurance against go-wide decks. You could also play Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout, Ratchet Bomb, or Sweltering Suns in the board; I personally value instant speed + getting around pro Red, but that's up to you. Alternatively, some extra spot removal like Roast or Pyrite Spellbomb would also be a fine use of sideboard slots.
Got to play my first post-unban Modern last night. Thinking that everyone would be packing their Jaces, I ran my usual list with this board:
3 Rabblemaster (at this point, I consider this a sideboard staple)
3 Molten Rain (ditto, especially if you're expecting control)
2 Ricochet Trap (haven't played it in a year or so, but thought there'd be a spike in blue)
3 Shattering Spree (I've been liking 3, given how many applications it has)
4 Dragon's Claw (since I'm not on Reckoner, I want the full 4 for Burn)
Wound up going 2-2; I beat Vizier Combo and UW Control, and lost to 5C Humans and Shadow. Thoughts:
- I consider Shadow to be 50:50, or maybe slightly in our favor. I lost game 3 to him going T1 Inquisition, T2 Thoughtseize + Shadow, T3 Angler. Not much you can do about that.
- The Richochet Traps weren't necessary. Jace hasn't made that matchup any better for UW, and our maindeck + Molten Rain is already pretty favored.
- I hate losing to decks like 5C, because they're our bread and butter. As such, I think I'll turn the Richochets into Kozilek's Returns.
In short: I don't think we need to commit extra slots of Jace decks, especially if those slots come at the expense of other matchups.
If anything, I'd expect more Skred lists to run some number of Ricochet Trap in their boards. Likewise, Koth, Stormbreath, and P&K line up really well against Jace; in some ways, he seems easier to deal with than Gideon, Elspeth, etc.
While I mostly agree, it's not an unloseable matchup. Some things that can happen:
- You keep a land-lite hand and get Spreading Seas'd.
- You keep a Blood Moon hand and they've got basics.
- You keep a threat-lite hand and they resolve something like Gideon Jura.
But yeah, it's definitely still a good matchup for us.
Seems unlikely they'd invest tons of resources into Arena if they were planning to sell. The fact that they're trying to develop something to compete with Hearthstone (i.e. the future of card games) would indicate to me that they're in it for the long haul.
For example, I'm currently playing Jeskai Geist and went 4-0 recently against two Jeskai Control decks, Jund, and Storm. Every single match was a test of skill and play sequencing. Tough but engaging games that were extremely rewarding and enjoyable for both players. It was a night that made me remember why I loved this format so much. But then a couple weeks later, I get matched up with two Tron decks, a Dredge deck, and UB Mill to finish at a predictable 1-3. Even my win against Mill was bland, boring, and empty. That was a night that reminded me why I hated this format so much. But that's variance for you.
I don't think it's petty or unreasonable to want your playskill and gameplay decisions to have a bigger impact in any given game (and not simply as an aggregate over hundreds of matches).
Not to be a dick, but this argument would be much more compelling if you'd had comparable records both nights. It's easier to interpret games as tough, engaging, rewarding, and enjoyable when you win, and when you lose it's easy to get salty about the overall format. I'm certainly going through this with Legacy right now: I'm not enjoying the format, I'm also doing poorly, and I'm not sure which is the chicken or the egg.
Cheers Fool and Darkview. To clarify, I guess I don't mean that Skred Red will be a player in Post-Modern. Rather, I think that Big Red will be a solid archetype, because WotC has been pretty interested in exploring that design space over the past few years.
I also think it unlike that they'll rotate out 8E and 9E. They're contemporaneous with Mirrodin and the like. But if they did, well, the format would warp in other terrible ways.
That said, the format probably only has 3-5 years left. But that's a long time in Magic.
Agreed with this. I don't think there's much reason to believe 8th / 9th will be removed from the format. Blood Moon, Choke, Bridge, and Worship may all be miserable to play against, but they have relatively small meta shares. Tron Lands are the only truly problematic cards, and even those tend to have ebbs and flows.
Seems more likely they'll introduce a new Post Modern format instead. When that happens, we can chat about Skred / Big Red's viability (I suspect it'll be a solid archetype).
My thoughts on the RIX spoilers:
- The new pirate's fun, but as pointed out it's essentially a 3-4 drop, which isn't really a weak point for our deck.
- Blood Sun isn't something we're interested in, right? Shame, cause I think it's great card design.
- Rekindling Phoenix, Etali, and Form of the Dinosaur are all cute fun-ofs, but not actually good.
I'm not bummed, though. Even if these specific printings aren't good for us, they're continued evidence that Wizards is exploring design space for Big Red and Utility Red spells. Sooner or later they'll print another great Skred card .
I agree 100%. My point was just that that's always been the case with the game, so I don't think this model is something we can attribute any falling sales/attendance numbers to.
Re. packs: hasn't this always been true? Even when I was originally playing in the late 90s and early 2000s, veteran players knew to buy singles and the casual/new players bought packs. "Getting over" packs is just a lifecycle Magic players go through, so Wizards just has to worry about its sealed products appealing to newer players and drafters. This has been a vulnerability for WotC's business plan since the very beginning, but considering it hasn't hurt them in the past 25 years, there isn't too much reason to think it's a problem now.
That said, the problem with this system is that access to singles isn't universal. I'm fortunate to play at an LGS that always has literally every single card you'd ever need, but lots of players' stores don't have good singles collections. This forces them to shop on TCG, eBay, etc, which hurts their local MtG economies.
Wound up going 2-2 in the OKC side event, beating Affinity and UR Storm and losing to Affinity and Dredge. Rough day (Dredge and Affinity are good matchups, I don't wanna be losing to them). On the plus side, I found Japanese Ancient Tombs and Null Rods I needed!
Did anyone play in the main event? The Top 8 looks super unfriendly to Skred, but the Top 32 looks a bit better.
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Affinity: In affinity's favour, but 1 or 2 more dedicated sideboard cards could tip it in our favour. dont be afraid to bolt turn 1 plays even if you have a sweeper. Hard but possible.
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Burn: Super hard matchup, needs 4 dragons claw in sideboard to have a chance, running 3, and it's not enough. Hard but can be done.
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Interesting that neither of you like the Burn or Affinity matchups; I've found them to be amongst our better Tier 1 matchups. Both decks have some things we struggle hugely with (e.g. hands with all spells and no creatures from Burn; Etched Champion with Cranial Plating from Affinity), but their average draws line up pretty poorly with ours.
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I haven't been playing much Modern recently, but my LGS is doing a 1K in a couple weeks so it's time to dust off the Skreds. A couple questions:
- Are you guys pretty much onboard with Abrade? I've been on 3 Magma Jet for a while; I think I'm gonna make 2 into Abrades, and maybe add another 1-2 Abrades in the board.
- Am I correct in assuming Damping Sphere didn't really change the equation against Tron? I've always held that our slow clock is the real problem against them, and that Sphere doesn't bring anything new to the table.
- I tried out Chandra Pyromaster the other day, and was also unimpressed.
- Bridge in the board seems cool in general; I imagine it'd be even better if you were on Koth (his ultimate is another way to win the game under a Bridge).
- Abrade seems great here.
- I think Storm is a matchup that will suffer because you've cut Koth. Our removal, Relics, and Dragon's Claws do a surprising amount of disruption, but you still need to close the game. Sideboard Rabblemasters help, but Koth is your fastest maindeck finisher.
Legacy's price issues are largely tied to the RL choking off the manabase. I don't think meta stagnation has much to do with it.
Witchbane's an interesting thought - maybe I'll give that a try!
Kozilek's Return is absolutely not the best card against 5C Humans, but it's OK against them and very good in some other matchups (Elves, Affinity, Infect, etc). Almost every Skred list runs 3 maindeck Anger, so Kozilek's Return is just added insurance against go-wide decks. You could also play Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout, Ratchet Bomb, or Sweltering Suns in the board; I personally value instant speed + getting around pro Red, but that's up to you. Alternatively, some extra spot removal like Roast or Pyrite Spellbomb would also be a fine use of sideboard slots.
3 Rabblemaster (at this point, I consider this a sideboard staple)
3 Molten Rain (ditto, especially if you're expecting control)
2 Ricochet Trap (haven't played it in a year or so, but thought there'd be a spike in blue)
3 Shattering Spree (I've been liking 3, given how many applications it has)
4 Dragon's Claw (since I'm not on Reckoner, I want the full 4 for Burn)
Wound up going 2-2; I beat Vizier Combo and UW Control, and lost to 5C Humans and Shadow. Thoughts:
- I consider Shadow to be 50:50, or maybe slightly in our favor. I lost game 3 to him going T1 Inquisition, T2 Thoughtseize + Shadow, T3 Angler. Not much you can do about that.
- The Richochet Traps weren't necessary. Jace hasn't made that matchup any better for UW, and our maindeck + Molten Rain is already pretty favored.
- I hate losing to decks like 5C, because they're our bread and butter. As such, I think I'll turn the Richochets into Kozilek's Returns.
In short: I don't think we need to commit extra slots of Jace decks, especially if those slots come at the expense of other matchups.
- You keep a land-lite hand and get Spreading Seas'd.
- You keep a Blood Moon hand and they've got basics.
- You keep a threat-lite hand and they resolve something like Gideon Jura.
But yeah, it's definitely still a good matchup for us.
Not to be a dick, but this argument would be much more compelling if you'd had comparable records both nights. It's easier to interpret games as tough, engaging, rewarding, and enjoyable when you win, and when you lose it's easy to get salty about the overall format. I'm certainly going through this with Legacy right now: I'm not enjoying the format, I'm also doing poorly, and I'm not sure which is the chicken or the egg.
Agreed with this. I don't think there's much reason to believe 8th / 9th will be removed from the format. Blood Moon, Choke, Bridge, and Worship may all be miserable to play against, but they have relatively small meta shares. Tron Lands are the only truly problematic cards, and even those tend to have ebbs and flows.
Seems more likely they'll introduce a new Post Modern format instead. When that happens, we can chat about Skred / Big Red's viability (I suspect it'll be a solid archetype).
- The new pirate's fun, but as pointed out it's essentially a 3-4 drop, which isn't really a weak point for our deck.
- Blood Sun isn't something we're interested in, right? Shame, cause I think it's great card design.
- Rekindling Phoenix, Etali, and Form of the Dinosaur are all cute fun-ofs, but not actually good.
I'm not bummed, though. Even if these specific printings aren't good for us, they're continued evidence that Wizards is exploring design space for Big Red and Utility Red spells. Sooner or later they'll print another great Skred card
That said, the problem with this system is that access to singles isn't universal. I'm fortunate to play at an LGS that always has literally every single card you'd ever need, but lots of players' stores don't have good singles collections. This forces them to shop on TCG, eBay, etc, which hurts their local MtG economies.
Did anyone play in the main event? The Top 8 looks super unfriendly to Skred, but the Top 32 looks a bit better.
Interesting that neither of you like the Burn or Affinity matchups; I've found them to be amongst our better Tier 1 matchups. Both decks have some things we struggle hugely with (e.g. hands with all spells and no creatures from Burn; Etched Champion with Cranial Plating from Affinity), but their average draws line up pretty poorly with ours.