So this list takes the Vizier-Druid combo and turns it into the Legacy ANT deck. I played with it today on MODO, some matches and a lot of solitaire, and once you know what good hands look like and are willing to play to ALL of your outs you can pretty consistently get turn 2/3 wins with Pact of Negation backup. I curb stomped two Valakut decks and got through multiple discard/removal spells from a B/W Tokens deck, and lost to Goblins (need those turn 2 hands against aggro decks, although the sideboard should help if I could figure it out) and a Grixis Death's Shadow deck with some slow hands.
Overall feels very powerful, and the "win out of nowhere" factor is very high. Obviously not as redundant as the standard Company lists, but it's not even the same kind of deck. It just happens to use the same combo.
I have some thoughts about the future of the deck given the recent trends regarding Death's Shadow. Between the four major events that happened this weekend, Death's Shadow with blue splash is just as common as with a white one, and Grixis Shadow is solidly Tier 1. This makes Stubborn Denial the premier counterspell in Modern, meaning that people will begin to expect and, to the extent they are able, play around it. Regardless, 3x Stubborn Denial is now standard in every Death's Shadow Aggro's 75, and most are running them maindeck. I don't know if this is good or bad for us; it feels like it might hurt our Death's Shadow Aggro matchup a little, where we were somewhat favored (at least in my experience).
A recognizable Sultai list placed 6th at the Baltimore Open. The list skews a little closer to Grixis than our stock list, especially running a full set of Serum Visions, and plays only 3 Traverse the Ulvenwald and two maindeck Snapcaster Mage. Apart from the Serum Visions, I really like this list, and have been having luck with just two maindeck Snapcaster Mage and a pair of Liliana, the Last Hope. Oftentimes being able to "flashback" a creature is better than a spell, so having a split between her and Snapcaster feels good. I think the balance between aggro and longevity is Sultai's strength, and finding the right number of Snapcaster feels like the key. Four has been a little too slow for me recently, especially when plan A is always to flood the field with Death's Shadow and Tarmogoyf.
Yes, that's 62 cards maindeck, seemingly just for 2 more fetchlands. Architects of Will, an extra Lili, and Grim Flayers take the place of one Tarmogoyf and Snapcaster Mage. And the white splash is maintained in the sideboard. But Sultai, specifically because of the strength of Stubborn Denial, is now a legitimate build of Death's Shadow Aggro.
EDIT: On my phone but Sultai Shadow came in 6th at the Modern Open in Baltimore.
@1470MAN Thanks for the report, and congrats on the 3-1! I love Surgical Extraction in this deck because we can interact on pretty much every axis to stop them (discard, removal, and countermagic) and then neuter their deck while growing our own threat.
I recommend finding room for some Golgari Charms and a full set of Stubborn Denial in your 75. Charm is great against a ton of decks that beat up on us, and would have given you a fighting chance against As Foretold (blanks Supreme Verdict and Fatal Push, kills As Foretold and Spreading Seas). Stubborn Denial is probably the best counter in the format right now, and fittingly it's only great in a BG deck.
It's also about the opportunity cost that comes from running a basic Forest. Having basic lands in a deck that runs 12 fetchlands means that 4 of your fetchlands can't find that land, and having two different basic lands in the deck reduces the flexibility that comes from running so many fetches. I also found a lot of scenarios where playing or fetching for a shock land was necessary to grow my Death's Shadow but I just had access to the basic Forest. These kinds of situations were coming up for me a lot more than needing a basic Forest to avoid Blood Moon, so I made the change and have been happy so far.
One point for your argument is that having the basic Forest makes specifically Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter worse against us. I'm hedging on mana flexibility and redundancy being more important in the meta than these cards and Blood Moon, but we'll see.
Open questions:
- 2 nihil / 1 surgical or vice versa? Surgical can be snapped but nihil grows goyf and cantrips. Surgical can be used for more decks. Tron for ex
- Should I fit in a dismember to fight eldrazi or more troublesome creatures. Like Gurmag angler. Good to have with snap. I'm thinking instead of the 4th traverse
- forest or breeding opool
-My main objection to Nihil Spellbomb is that it costs 2 mana to get full value, whereas Surgical Extraction is free (and actually grows your Death's Shadows) and can be flashed back with Snapcaster. I prefer a 2-1 split, or even more depending on the meta; it's often the best thing to side in in place of Fatal Push against certain types of combo/big creature decks.
-I'm not a big fan of Dismember in black decks. While the life loss is nice for Shadow, it's always going to be a ghetto Terminate, and Go for the Throat does that job better. I wouldn't cut the fourth Traverse the Ulvenwald though, all four are necessary to make the landbase work early and draw into threats later.
@skullscorcher: the basic forest is your insurance against blood moon. I wouldn't cut it.
Death's Shadow Jund has been on one basic Swamp for a long time and they have fewer answers to Blood Moon than we do (discard spells plus instant speed removal with Abrupt Decay plus Snapcaster and Stubborn Denial). Like I said, the corner cases (like Blood Moon) are far outweighed by the value, especially when grabbing the basic Swamp with Traverse to make a land drop is a very common turn 2 play. Having exactly three fetches for Grave->Tomb->Grave is ideal, but fetching for Tomb->(Traverse for) Swamp->Pool comes up frequently, and smooths out your mana nicely.
EDIT: I feel like I didn't make the correct point earlier. Breeding Pool instead of Forest smooths out the mana base by removing situations where drawing non-fetchlands is bad while also increasing versatility late in the game. Basic Forest, while nice insurance against Blood Moon, is the worst land to see in your opening hand and is almost never fetched for. Cutting it for Breeding Pool brings a third blue source into the deck, which is meaningful given the way the deck aggressively fetches its few mana-producing lands. Breeding Pool over Forest also keeps the number of non-black mana-producing lands at one, which is all you want given the deck's greedy color needs in the early turns. Nothing feels worse than having a two land hand with Forest and Breeding Pool and a bunch of Thoughtseizes.
Havent your had problems with t1 black mana then? For discards spells and push. I know the 12 fetchlands helps, but i would be afraid of drawing forest and breeding pool I know the chances are low tho..
I've switched out my basic Forest for a Breeding Pool and am very happy with the change so far. The corner cases where basic Forest was good were far outweighed by the lack of consistent double blue for Snapcaster and Stubborn Denial.
Some interesting results from the Louisville Team Open (not Team Unified), including the top deck being a Death's Shadow Aggro list that splashed blue for 3 maindeck Stubborn Denial! This list is very interesting to me, as Death's Shadow Aggro had been splashing blue in the sideboard with a Watery Grave and 4 Stubborn Denial for months, but this is the first time I've seen it maindeck instead of the white splash.
Another trend worth investigating is the evolution of the BGx shell for Death's Shadow. The dominant archetype outside of Jund is Abzan, with 2 lists in the top 12 of that particular event. Personally I love the Abzan Death's Shadow list: I feel like it retains all of the fun parts of playing Abzan Midrange with a ton more aggression and power.
So, half a year or more out from the debut of Death's Shadow Jund we have at two tiered Death's Shadow lists (Jund and Grixis) as well as some derivative lists showing up in each shell (either BGx or UBx). The question is, is Sultai a BGu deck or a UBg deck? As you all know, I prefer the BGu build, but given that a UBg deck 5-0ed the other day, and that straight UB lists are beginning to show up, I think we're about to see a big leap in Death's Shadow diversity, including Sultai breaking into the scene, if only in the form of the premiere Death's Shadow Aggro list splashing blue instead of white.
I see this deck as an evolution of the new UB Shadow lists that have been going 5-0 in the MODO leagues. Whether this is the final version that Sultai will take or not is undetermined, but the list should definitely be added to the Primer.
@mtgneffy BG Tron is a worse matchup for us than GW Tron, which used to be more popular before Eldrazi Tron. Ceremonious Rejection and Surgical Exraction seem like our best options, alongside Spreading Seas, which I'm gonna try.
@mtgneffy Thanks for the report! Burn is a weird matchup that is very draw dependent.
How did Spreading Seas work? I see you put 2 in your board alongside another Rejection, and I know I was originally skeptical but I'm starting to think there's room for an enchantment or two in the 75. I'll try the 3/3 IoK/Stubborn Denial spread, I like having the full discard suite but with Snapcaster Mage 7 might be enough, and Stubs is just so good every time I draw it.
I will try this list the last time before GP copenhagen:
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Death's Shadow
4 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Sideboard:
1 Big Game Hunter
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Collective Brutality
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Surgical Extraction
Note: I had 16 cards in the board, and chose to cut the Nihil sPellbomb. Was thing that 2 surgical with snaps would be enough. Im super scared of tron because of the trial and I'm packaging a Ghost quarter to help me out. Big Game Hunter seems cool too, so i will try that if i get him.
I also went away from the Golgari charms (which was supposed to save me from Verdicts or elves, or leyline) but they havent done that in testing. Flaying tendrills was on my radar too, but it's difficult making room for more than 1.
I love this list! Out of curiosity, why two Collective Brutality? I like having one but I'm not sure two is necessary unless you're expecting a ton of burn, and having access to a single Golgari Charm, a second Flaying Tendrils, or another piece of graveyard/Tron hate might be more useful.
EDIT:
I use the same mainboard linked above, and this is my current sideboard. I've been tuning (sporadically) over the past couple of weeks in preparation for playing some MODO leagues when I get back home from vacation and feel pretty good regarding the current MODO meta:
I have to ask, why aren't you guys playing Serum Visions? That's one of the main draws to blue, along with Snapcaster and Stubborn Denial, and it really helps smooth out your draws. Also, just to throw out a crazy idea, but what about Rancor in this deck? It can kinda fill the same niche that TBR fills in the Jund and Grixis versions, but it's a static effect. Worst case, if you get 2-for-1d casting it, it pumps your goyfs and helps towards delirium.
I think Sultai needs to maintain the aggressiveness of the Jund Death's Shadow Aggro deck, which means that free cantrips like Mishra's Bauble and Street Wraith which also have other synergies are just better than cantrips that cost mana. Especially in the early turns I rarely have extra mana but aren't frequently mana screwed, and most victories come from out-curving my opponent with Thoughtseizes and Death's Shadows. Until Bauble is banned, I don't think I'll use any blue cantrips, since they slow down the deck.
Rancor sounds interesting. As skullscorcher mentioned, there's also Slip through Space and there is also Distortion Strike. I think I'd rank them Slip>Rancor>Strike. Slip first because of the snapcaster interaction.
I like Rancor as a sideboard option, kind of along the lines of Bitterblossom from some early sideboards. Temur Battle Rage is good largely because of its non-Ferocious mode, and without Double-Strike I don't want this effect main deck, but if your meta is full of token decks Rancor is some nice tech.
So this list takes the Vizier-Druid combo and turns it into the Legacy ANT deck. I played with it today on MODO, some matches and a lot of solitaire, and once you know what good hands look like and are willing to play to ALL of your outs you can pretty consistently get turn 2/3 wins with Pact of Negation backup. I curb stomped two Valakut decks and got through multiple discard/removal spells from a B/W Tokens deck, and lost to Goblins (need those turn 2 hands against aggro decks, although the sideboard should help if I could figure it out) and a Grixis Death's Shadow deck with some slow hands.
Overall feels very powerful, and the "win out of nowhere" factor is very high. Obviously not as redundant as the standard Company lists, but it's not even the same kind of deck. It just happens to use the same combo.
A recognizable Sultai list placed 6th at the Baltimore Open. The list skews a little closer to Grixis than our stock list, especially running a full set of Serum Visions, and plays only 3 Traverse the Ulvenwald and two maindeck Snapcaster Mage. Apart from the Serum Visions, I really like this list, and have been having luck with just two maindeck Snapcaster Mage and a pair of Liliana, the Last Hope. Oftentimes being able to "flashback" a creature is better than a spell, so having a split between her and Snapcaster feels good. I think the balance between aggro and longevity is Sultai's strength, and finding the right number of Snapcaster feels like the key. Four has been a little too slow for me recently, especially when plan A is always to flood the field with Death's Shadow and Tarmogoyf.
3 Liliana of the Veil
Creature (14)
4 Death's Shadow
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Flayer
4 Street Wraith
1 Architects of Will
Sorcery (12)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Instant (9)
4 Fatal Push
2 Stubborn Denial
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Mishra's Bauble
Land (20)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Stony Silence
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Lingering Souls
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Phyrexian Unlife
Yes, that's 62 cards maindeck, seemingly just for 2 more fetchlands. Architects of Will, an extra Lili, and Grim Flayers take the place of one Tarmogoyf and Snapcaster Mage. And the white splash is maintained in the sideboard. But Sultai, specifically because of the strength of Stubborn Denial, is now a legitimate build of Death's Shadow Aggro.
EDIT: On my phone but Sultai Shadow came in 6th at the Modern Open in Baltimore.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/658341#online
I recommend finding room for some Golgari Charms and a full set of Stubborn Denial in your 75. Charm is great against a ton of decks that beat up on us, and would have given you a fighting chance against As Foretold (blanks Supreme Verdict and Fatal Push, kills As Foretold and Spreading Seas). Stubborn Denial is probably the best counter in the format right now, and fittingly it's only great in a BG deck.
Also, out of curiosity, why not run Street Wraith?
It's also about the opportunity cost that comes from running a basic Forest. Having basic lands in a deck that runs 12 fetchlands means that 4 of your fetchlands can't find that land, and having two different basic lands in the deck reduces the flexibility that comes from running so many fetches. I also found a lot of scenarios where playing or fetching for a shock land was necessary to grow my Death's Shadow but I just had access to the basic Forest. These kinds of situations were coming up for me a lot more than needing a basic Forest to avoid Blood Moon, so I made the change and have been happy so far.
One point for your argument is that having the basic Forest makes specifically Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter worse against us. I'm hedging on mana flexibility and redundancy being more important in the meta than these cards and Blood Moon, but we'll see.
-My main objection to Nihil Spellbomb is that it costs 2 mana to get full value, whereas Surgical Extraction is free (and actually grows your Death's Shadows) and can be flashed back with Snapcaster. I prefer a 2-1 split, or even more depending on the meta; it's often the best thing to side in in place of Fatal Push against certain types of combo/big creature decks.
-I'm not a big fan of Dismember in black decks. While the life loss is nice for Shadow, it's always going to be a ghetto Terminate, and Go for the Throat does that job better. I wouldn't cut the fourth Traverse the Ulvenwald though, all four are necessary to make the landbase work early and draw into threats later.
Death's Shadow Jund has been on one basic Swamp for a long time and they have fewer answers to Blood Moon than we do (discard spells plus instant speed removal with Abrupt Decay plus Snapcaster and Stubborn Denial). Like I said, the corner cases (like Blood Moon) are far outweighed by the value, especially when grabbing the basic Swamp with Traverse to make a land drop is a very common turn 2 play. Having exactly three fetches for Grave->Tomb->Grave is ideal, but fetching for Tomb->(Traverse for) Swamp->Pool comes up frequently, and smooths out your mana nicely.
EDIT: I feel like I didn't make the correct point earlier. Breeding Pool instead of Forest smooths out the mana base by removing situations where drawing non-fetchlands is bad while also increasing versatility late in the game. Basic Forest, while nice insurance against Blood Moon, is the worst land to see in your opening hand and is almost never fetched for. Cutting it for Breeding Pool brings a third blue source into the deck, which is meaningful given the way the deck aggressively fetches its few mana-producing lands. Breeding Pool over Forest also keeps the number of non-black mana-producing lands at one, which is all you want given the deck's greedy color needs in the early turns. Nothing feels worse than having a two land hand with Forest and Breeding Pool and a bunch of Thoughtseizes.
I've switched out my basic Forest for a Breeding Pool and am very happy with the change so far. The corner cases where basic Forest was good were far outweighed by the lack of consistent double blue for Snapcaster and Stubborn Denial.
EDIT: For reference, here's my current landbase.
1 Breeding Pool
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
Another trend worth investigating is the evolution of the BGx shell for Death's Shadow. The dominant archetype outside of Jund is Abzan, with 2 lists in the top 12 of that particular event. Personally I love the Abzan Death's Shadow list: I feel like it retains all of the fun parts of playing Abzan Midrange with a ton more aggression and power.
So, half a year or more out from the debut of Death's Shadow Jund we have at two tiered Death's Shadow lists (Jund and Grixis) as well as some derivative lists showing up in each shell (either BGx or UBx). The question is, is Sultai a BGu deck or a UBg deck? As you all know, I prefer the BGu build, but given that a UBg deck 5-0ed the other day, and that straight UB lists are beginning to show up, I think we're about to see a big leap in Death's Shadow diversity, including Sultai breaking into the scene, if only in the form of the premiere Death's Shadow Aggro list splashing blue instead of white.
Other observations:
-The list goes heavy on blue cantrips and totally forgoes Mishra's Bauble.
-There is only one Liliana in the deck, and she lives in the sideboard.
-Gurmag Angler and Tasigur, the Golden Fang are being run alongside some number of Traverse the Ulvenwald.
I see this deck as an evolution of the new UB Shadow lists that have been going 5-0 in the MODO leagues. Whether this is the final version that Sultai will take or not is undetermined, but the list should definitely be added to the Primer.
How did Spreading Seas work? I see you put 2 in your board alongside another Rejection, and I know I was originally skeptical but I'm starting to think there's room for an enchantment or two in the 75. I'll try the 3/3 IoK/Stubborn Denial spread, I like having the full discard suite but with Snapcaster Mage 7 might be enough, and Stubs is just so good every time I draw it.
I love this list! Out of curiosity, why two Collective Brutality? I like having one but I'm not sure two is necessary unless you're expecting a ton of burn, and having access to a single Golgari Charm, a second Flaying Tendrils, or another piece of graveyard/Tron hate might be more useful.
EDIT:
I use the same mainboard linked above, and this is my current sideboard. I've been tuning (sporadically) over the past couple of weeks in preparation for playing some MODO leagues when I get back home from vacation and feel pretty good regarding the current MODO meta:
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Collective Brutality
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nature's Claim
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Surgical Extraction
I think Sultai needs to maintain the aggressiveness of the Jund Death's Shadow Aggro deck, which means that free cantrips like Mishra's Bauble and Street Wraith which also have other synergies are just better than cantrips that cost mana. Especially in the early turns I rarely have extra mana but aren't frequently mana screwed, and most victories come from out-curving my opponent with Thoughtseizes and Death's Shadows. Until Bauble is banned, I don't think I'll use any blue cantrips, since they slow down the deck.
I like Rancor as a sideboard option, kind of along the lines of Bitterblossom from some early sideboards. Temur Battle Rage is good largely because of its non-Ferocious mode, and without Double-Strike I don't want this effect main deck, but if your meta is full of token decks Rancor is some nice tech.