I am so torn atm. As mentioned before, I've been taking the deck in a more competitive direction but I'm not sure I'm enjoying playing it nearly as much as I did when it was zombie tribal. Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the increase in win percentage but I don't think the overall gameplay is as much fun for me.
I had the same experience. As I tried to make the deck better, I ended up moving away from zombie tribal, which was the original reason I chose Sidisi in the first place. Just recently, I decided to take apart the deck. The expensive green cards ended up in my Yisan, the Wanderer Bard cEDH deck, and I built a more casual zombie tribal deck with Gisa and Geralf at the helm from the rest of it.
A couple ideas I have been going through in my head...
I think people are overvaluing the value of the Prime Speaker Vannifar. I could be wrong, but wouldn't we just rather play Birthing Pod as it doesn't have summoning sickness? And that Birthing Pod is a fine choice, but that option has always been open to us. Maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't seem like Prime Speaker Vannifar is providing much of anything new to us.
I previously disregarded Underrealm Lich as a card that looks great, but in reality is slow and doesn't provide that much value for how much it costs. Maybe this is old news, but did people realize the potential with Sylvan Library? I missed this at first, but now I'm thinking including them both is worth it.
This is the current decklist I'm looking at, holding off on purchasing some of the cards until I've figured out a couple more details. Appreciate any thoughts on the below:
3. Milling - Undecided on Hedron Crab vs Embalmer's Tools. Hedron Crab has synergy with The Gitrog Monster and is a creature, but I like that Embalmer's Tools allows the use of untapped zombies and yields potentially more Sidisi triggers.
4. Lifegain - Is lifegain needed in this deck? If so, is Whip of Erebos worth including, and what would it replace?
5. Scroll Rack - How good have people found this to be? Any suggested card to swap out for it?
6. Cavern of Souls - As above, how good have people found this card to be? I'm considering swapping out City of Brass.
Your list looks very close to mine! Either I gave you some inspiration or simply great minds think alike! I'll just touch on a couple of your points:
2. I am always wary of cutting lands for non-lands. You are probably ok with the cut, but realize that Maze of Ith isn't really a land either, so you are really sitting at 35 lands.
3. I really like Hedron Crab. Compare it to Underrealm Lich. Both will fill your graveyard and provide zombies off Sidisi's trigger. The difference is Hedron Crab costs 1 mana instead of 5, will sometimes trigger twice (off of fetchlands or The Gitrog Monster), and can often get the trigger immediately by playing your land for the turn after casting Hedron Crab.
6. Do your opponents ever play counter magic? If so, than Cavern of Souls should probably be included in any commander deck, regardless of tribe theme. Tacking on "Uncounterable" to your general is usually worth it. Not necessary, but nice.
Thought I would give a more in depth answer on my opinions on ramp and answers. I will highlight the one's I run and give explanations when they add something. For reference, my current decklist.
I’ve been looking at your current list and had a couple more questions please, if you or anyone else can answer:
2. What's the best substitute for Mox Diamond in this list? I'm looking at running one of the signets, Journey to Eternity, or something a bit different like Mana Vault
Thanks for the input! And thanks again DementedKirby for the killer primer.
1. Yes, Growing Rites of Itlimoc is probably the best replacement for Gaea's Cradle if you want that effect. But in my opinion, it is too slow, and I would rather just an additional ramp spell, such as Llanowar Elves. If you do include Growing Rites of Itlimoc because you want that effect, I would be wary of just cutting a Gaea's Cradle for it. This is because Gaea's Cradle still functions as a land with even just 1 creature out, while in contrast Growing Rites of Itlimoc doesn't provide mana at all until you have 4+ creatures out. I would not add Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx unless your permanents are almost exclusively all one or two colors, because it doesn't provide you any benefit over a basic land until you have 4+ of the same color symbol on the battlefield.
2. The best substitute for Mox Diamond is likely Chrome Mox. (I have been toying with the idea of replacing Chromatic Lantern in my list with Chrome Mox.) If that is still out of price range, I would probably just put in Elves of Deep Shadow. But if you want to go a different direction and put in Mana Vault, that seems like a fine choice as well.
3. In my opinion, Underrealm Lich is a trap card. Initially, it looks amazing for us. But unless you also happen to have Brainstorm, it is likely not getting you any value until your next turn (assuming nobody removes it) and then only gets you probably 1 zombie a turn. For 5 mana, that seems like a lot.
Lazav, the Multifarious is better, but I still think there are better choices. Unless, you are doing combo things with it, why not just add in an additional reanimation spell, like Reanimate or Dance of the Dead? This way you are likely paying less mana for the thing you want, and you get the ETB effect.
I can also just cast Ulamog and exile an opponent's Leyline of the Void.
If your response to, "What to do against a problem-some permanent?" is "Cast an Eldrazi titan," then you play in a very battlecruiser meta. And not that that's a bad thing, but you should be up front about it in your primer.
Second,
Leyline of the Void is indeed a problem but I'm not going to add cards because of a single card in mind.
Are you finding difficulty in recurring instants and/or sorceries? Those are the card types I try to avoid the most in this deck because, although there are ways to recurring them, they are few and far between. Apart from Snapcaster Mage, they're lackluster. So I'm interested to see how you manage it in your build which has a higher nonpermanent spell count than my own.
No, I do not really recur my instants and sorceries. But you talk as if artifacts and enchantments are much easier to recur. I have Muldrotha, the Gravetide (and I see you have Sequestered Stash), but does that single card (or two) really make recurring your planeswalkers and enchantments that much easier to cast? In the specific case of Expedition Map vs Demonic Tutor, do you really care about recurring Expedition Map by the time you have Muldrotha, the Gravetide out? I am currently sitting at 33 creatures in my list. Yes, I sometimes miss a Sidisi zombie trigger. But I've found that having interaction and more tutors/card draw to get the cards that I actually want (rather than just sub-par cards that are a creature) is worth it.
Also, regarding your take on interaction, it seems you view it as an all-or-nothing approach: either play the best, instant speed counterspells and removal to take on combo, or play little to no interaction at all. But there is middle ground! Caustic Caterpillar, Manglehorn, and Reclamation Sage provide ways to interact with your opponents. And being creatures, they follow our gameplan of keeping our creature count high. It's perplexing that you mention the likes of Leyline of the Void multiple times in your primer, but then only have Nullmage Shepherd to deal with it. And if Leyline of the Void makes an early appearance, we may never establish enough of a board presence to even activate Nullmage Shepherd.
2. A few people, especially arcane_trouper, have been discussing changes to the deck like more ramp, more answers. What are the cons of doing this, and how would it change the way the deck plays?
Thought I would give a more in depth answer on my opinions on ramp and answers. I will highlight the one's I run and give explanations when they add something. For reference, my current decklist.
But first, it should be noted that I have trimmed down and cut some of DementedKirby's deck. Notable exclusions are:
Planeswalkers. I found they just didn't add enough. If you aren't happy with getting a single activation out of them before they are killed, they probably don't make the cut. You could argue for Tezzeret the Seeker as a way to find Mesmeric Orb, but why not just have Muddle the Mixture, which is a more flexible option. As I don't have planeswalkers in my list, I substituted Parallel Lives for Doubling Season. Parallel Lives is 1 mana cheaper and doesn't have the anti-synergy with Glen Elendra Archmage that Doubling Season does.
Cabal Coffers Again, doesn't do anything unless I find Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. In general, I found Gaea's Cradle produces more mana, faster, and functions without finding an additional land. If I'm tutoring for a land, I'm probably finding Gaea's Cradle.
Gempalm Polluter The card is fine. But with the addition of The Scarab God, we already have a backup way to win in case winning through combat isn't an option.
Now the main card choices for Ramp and Removal: Ramp: Mana dorks are great for Sidisi, Brood Tyrant because they are ramp that allow us to get zombie triggers when we mill them.
Chromatic Lantern Probably the worst ramp I run, and you would be fine to find something better. However, it does ensure that are utility lands always tap for something and makes our manabase less painful.
Aphetto Alchemist Not ramp by itself, but allows us to untap our mana dorks/rocks.
Dryad Arbor Not ramp by itself, but the inclusion of Green Sun's Zenith allows us to use it as ramp. Dryad Arbor also has the benefit of keeping our creature count high, and provides an additional target for Aphetto Alchemist. Green Sun's Zenith is a fantastic card that allows us to tutor for a mana dork early game, and then also can grab Craterhoof Behemoth when we are swinging in for the win.
Phyrexian Tower More of a sac outlet than ramp, but can occasionally be used as ramp.
Removal: Removal should have a low cmc, and should function even if we don't already have a well established board presence. For these reasons, I don't consider Sheoldred, Whispering One removal, and there are better options than Nullmage Shepherd.
Maze of Ith Look how many ways our deck can untap lands! The becomes repeatable removal, and also lets us still swing with Sidisi, Brood Tyrant if the board is clogged.
Hope this helps! Despite the number of changes, I still consider this the same core deck, as (1) it's clearly not a cEDH deck as the traditional win-condition combos of Laboratory Maniac, Food Chain, and Protean Hulk are missing, (2) the main win-condition is to amass a giant horde of zombies, with slight sub-themes of reanimation and using our graveyard as card selection, and (3) has the unconventional inclusion of the Eldrazi Titans to facilitate infinite zombies with the Aphetto Alchemist combo, as well as using those Eldrazi Titans as potential protection against one-shot graveyard hate effects.
That being said, Sidisi is nowhere near a Tier 1 deck.
I acknowledge this. My current build is not a tier 1 deck either, and it is not intended to be one. I could be running Laboratory Maniac, Necrotic Ooze, and/or Protean Hulk as win-conditions, but I opt for the more casual win-condition of Craterhoof Behemoth and an army of zombies. But there is a lot of room between "optimized casual" and "unfocused battlecruiser." In my opinion, commander is most fun when a deck doesn't consist of 100% threats. You need answers! I have a budget Brago deck. It's a casual deck--not a dedicated combo deck--but with the right draw it can lock out the game and essentially win with one Brago hit. Just having a few additional answers from players makes games so much more interesting! We are in colors that allow us to play Demonic Tutor, Mana Drain, and Assassin's trophy (which will take place of the Abrupt Decay I currently run). These are cheap, broad-reaching cards that allow games to have more of a back-and-forth.
If you choose not to add all of these in, that's fine. It's hard to make cuts, especially when we want to keep our creature count high. But as a primer, you should at least have a section of listing some of the best answers/tutors available to us.
I don't know... perhaps your meta is just more casual and battlecruiser. It seems silly to assume that our deck is always doing broken stuff while other decks are just playing catch-up. What happens when an opponent has their own Gaea's Cradle? What about that Alesha, Who Smiles at Death player who just flashed in an attacking Master of Cruelties on turn 3 or 4. What about the Brago, King Eternal player that is about to hit for combat damage and essentially win by turn 4 or 5. Broken things happen all the time in commander, and Assassin's Trophy is--aside from countermagic--the single best catch all answer.
Also, I'm all for running Force of Will. I personally haven't added it because I just don't have that many blue cards in my deck that I can consistently pay its alternative cost.
@DementedKirby I've said it before, but I'll say it again: you should put more interaction in. Right now I only see 5 cards in your list above that interact with your opponents' things in a reasonable way: Opposition, Glen Elendra Archmage, Nullmage Shepherd, Vengeful Pharaoh, and Living Death. And a couple of those are a stretch as Nullmage Shepherd requires a strong board presence and Vengeful Pharoah serves more as a disincentive for people to attack you than a removal card. I wouldn't count things like Grimgrin, Corpse-Born (because he requires you to play him and have him stick around a full turn) or Sheoldred, Whispering One, because at 7 mana she is more of a finisher than an interaction piece. Assassin's Trophy is a catch-all interaction spell, and should 100% be included.
@DementedKirby
Fair enough. Although I do think you should be cautious of relying on Gaea's Cradle and much. It produces tons of mana by itself, but it is still only 1 card in 99, and finding it and having it--even with tutors--and having it stick around is not always assured.
Made a couple additional changes to my decklist that I think are solid:
Bloom Tender: At worst, it taps for 1 and lets us cast our commander on T3. At best, it taps for 3 mana. Either way, good deal. This replaced Liliana, Death's Majesty. Lili was fun and flavorful, but was often a 5 mana Animate Dead. If you want to go that route there are better reanimator spells.
Phyrexian Tower: In my current list, I took out Altar of Dementia to make room for other cards. But, having an instant speed sac outlet is nice. Having that sac outlet on a land that can ramp us is even better. I do think there is an argument for running Altar, but if you take it out like I have Phyrexian Tower is a nice replacement.
If you don't ever see a Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void, that's great. But together they do make up about ten thousand decks (according to edhrec). So it's not like you're going to see it all the time, but it's not never. From my own experience, I have come across some Brago, King Eternal lists that play Rest in Peace. Personally, I can't deal with not having any answers to it, so I added some. Even if your opponents aren't playing RiP, there's a good chance you're able to find some key artifact or enchantment you'd like to take out.
Also, I do think we should run the "big-bag-of-tutors." Why not? Currently I've added Demonic Tutor, Diabolic Intent, Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, and Muddle the Mixture. I've also added additional graveyard recursion in the form of Regrowth and Academy Ruins. I agree that the Aphetto Alchemist combo is slower than other combos we can add, but it's the combo I've chosen to go for. Perhaps it has just become a pet combo of mine.
Regarding the Eldrazi titans, I'll throw in my vote to keep them in. Thematically, I've enjoyed building SBT in a way such to best live out the vorthos of a necromancer summoning an overwhelming horde of zombies. Having a shuffle effect lets me create infinite zombies via Aphetto Alchemist and Mesmeric Orb (the latter of which is a great card regardless, and the former of which often still provides ramp). The deck would certainly be objectionably strong if we included Laboratory Maniac combo and/or other common cEDH staple combos, but I've purposely built the deck in a way such that the only infinite combo I have is Mesmeric Orb and Aphetto Alchmist. The other cards I have previously suggested are to primarily to improve (1) consistency and (2) ways to combat graveyard hate so we aren't just sitting at the table with literally nothing in our deck to answer a Rest in Peace
I had the same experience. As I tried to make the deck better, I ended up moving away from zombie tribal, which was the original reason I chose Sidisi in the first place. Just recently, I decided to take apart the deck. The expensive green cards ended up in my Yisan, the Wanderer Bard cEDH deck, and I built a more casual zombie tribal deck with Gisa and Geralf at the helm from the rest of it.
Your list looks very close to mine! Either I gave you some inspiration or simply great minds think alike! I'll just touch on a couple of your points:
2. I am always wary of cutting lands for non-lands. You are probably ok with the cut, but realize that Maze of Ith isn't really a land either, so you are really sitting at 35 lands.
3. I really like Hedron Crab. Compare it to Underrealm Lich. Both will fill your graveyard and provide zombies off Sidisi's trigger. The difference is Hedron Crab costs 1 mana instead of 5, will sometimes trigger twice (off of fetchlands or The Gitrog Monster), and can often get the trigger immediately by playing your land for the turn after casting Hedron Crab.
6. Do your opponents ever play counter magic? If so, than Cavern of Souls should probably be included in any commander deck, regardless of tribe theme. Tacking on "Uncounterable" to your general is usually worth it. Not necessary, but nice.
1. Yes, Growing Rites of Itlimoc is probably the best replacement for Gaea's Cradle if you want that effect. But in my opinion, it is too slow, and I would rather just an additional ramp spell, such as Llanowar Elves. If you do include Growing Rites of Itlimoc because you want that effect, I would be wary of just cutting a Gaea's Cradle for it. This is because Gaea's Cradle still functions as a land with even just 1 creature out, while in contrast Growing Rites of Itlimoc doesn't provide mana at all until you have 4+ creatures out. I would not add Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx unless your permanents are almost exclusively all one or two colors, because it doesn't provide you any benefit over a basic land until you have 4+ of the same color symbol on the battlefield.
2. The best substitute for Mox Diamond is likely Chrome Mox. (I have been toying with the idea of replacing Chromatic Lantern in my list with Chrome Mox.) If that is still out of price range, I would probably just put in Elves of Deep Shadow. But if you want to go a different direction and put in Mana Vault, that seems like a fine choice as well.
(If your manabase can support it, look at Ancient Tomb as a replacement for either Gaea's Cradle or Mox Diamond.
3. In my opinion, Underrealm Lich is a trap card. Initially, it looks amazing for us. But unless you also happen to have Brainstorm, it is likely not getting you any value until your next turn (assuming nobody removes it) and then only gets you probably 1 zombie a turn. For 5 mana, that seems like a lot.
Lazav, the Multifarious is better, but I still think there are better choices. Unless, you are doing combo things with it, why not just add in an additional reanimation spell, like Reanimate or Dance of the Dead? This way you are likely paying less mana for the thing you want, and you get the ETB effect.
If your response to, "What to do against a problem-some permanent?" is "Cast an Eldrazi titan," then you play in a very battlecruiser meta. And not that that's a bad thing, but you should be up front about it in your primer.
Second,
Leyline of the Void is an example of a card that can destroy us completely, but it isn't the only card that our interaction hits! Don't your opponents ever play a Lightning Greaves, Sword of Feast and Famine, Gilded Lotus, or Skullclamp? Worst case scenario you hit a Sol Ring or signet with your Manglehorn and slow everyone else down. What happens when your opponent Animate Dead's their own Sheoldred, Whispering One?
Third,
No, I do not really recur my instants and sorceries. But you talk as if artifacts and enchantments are much easier to recur. I have Muldrotha, the Gravetide (and I see you have Sequestered Stash), but does that single card (or two) really make recurring your planeswalkers and enchantments that much easier to cast? In the specific case of Expedition Map vs Demonic Tutor, do you really care about recurring Expedition Map by the time you have Muldrotha, the Gravetide out? I am currently sitting at 33 creatures in my list. Yes, I sometimes miss a Sidisi zombie trigger. But I've found that having interaction and more tutors/card draw to get the cards that I actually want (rather than just sub-par cards that are a creature) is worth it.
Why are you cutting Voyaging Satyr? Your build is lite on ramp anyhow, and this is a mana dork that works well with Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle, and Mesmeric Orb.
Also, regarding your take on interaction, it seems you view it as an all-or-nothing approach: either play the best, instant speed counterspells and removal to take on combo, or play little to no interaction at all. But there is middle ground! Caustic Caterpillar, Manglehorn, and Reclamation Sage provide ways to interact with your opponents. And being creatures, they follow our gameplan of keeping our creature count high. It's perplexing that you mention the likes of Leyline of the Void multiple times in your primer, but then only have Nullmage Shepherd to deal with it. And if Leyline of the Void makes an early appearance, we may never establish enough of a board presence to even activate Nullmage Shepherd.
As you mentioned tutors (specifically Demonic Tutor), a few others that I think deserve mention are Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Diabolic Intent, and Muddle the Mixture.
Finally, as you added The Gitrog Monster, I have found Hedron Crab and Fetid Pools work well with the frog. Fetid Pools also just works well with Life from the Loam, and Hedron Crab works well with the high amount of fetch lands in the deck.
Thought I would give a more in depth answer on my opinions on ramp and answers. I will highlight the one's I run and give explanations when they add something. For reference, my current decklist.
But first, it should be noted that I have trimmed down and cut some of DementedKirby's deck. Notable exclusions are:
Now the main card choices for Ramp and Removal:
Ramp: Mana dorks are great for Sidisi, Brood Tyrant because they are ramp that allow us to get zombie triggers when we mill them.
Removal: Removal should have a low cmc, and should function even if we don't already have a well established board presence. For these reasons, I don't consider Sheoldred, Whispering One removal, and there are better options than Nullmage Shepherd.
Hope this helps! Despite the number of changes, I still consider this the same core deck, as (1) it's clearly not a cEDH deck as the traditional win-condition combos of Laboratory Maniac, Food Chain, and Protean Hulk are missing, (2) the main win-condition is to amass a giant horde of zombies, with slight sub-themes of reanimation and using our graveyard as card selection, and (3) has the unconventional inclusion of the Eldrazi Titans to facilitate infinite zombies with the Aphetto Alchemist combo, as well as using those Eldrazi Titans as potential protection against one-shot graveyard hate effects.
I acknowledge this. My current build is not a tier 1 deck either, and it is not intended to be one. I could be running Laboratory Maniac, Necrotic Ooze, and/or Protean Hulk as win-conditions, but I opt for the more casual win-condition of Craterhoof Behemoth and an army of zombies. But there is a lot of room between "optimized casual" and "unfocused battlecruiser." In my opinion, commander is most fun when a deck doesn't consist of 100% threats. You need answers! I have a budget Brago deck. It's a casual deck--not a dedicated combo deck--but with the right draw it can lock out the game and essentially win with one Brago hit. Just having a few additional answers from players makes games so much more interesting! We are in colors that allow us to play Demonic Tutor, Mana Drain, and Assassin's trophy (which will take place of the Abrupt Decay I currently run). These are cheap, broad-reaching cards that allow games to have more of a back-and-forth.
If you choose not to add all of these in, that's fine. It's hard to make cuts, especially when we want to keep our creature count high. But as a primer, you should at least have a section of listing some of the best answers/tutors available to us.
Also, I'm all for running Force of Will. I personally haven't added it because I just don't have that many blue cards in my deck that I can consistently pay its alternative cost.
Fair enough. Although I do think you should be cautious of relying on Gaea's Cradle and much. It produces tons of mana by itself, but it is still only 1 card in 99, and finding it and having it--even with tutors--and having it stick around is not always assured.
@Artaud
I have been tinkering with my list still and I think you are correct about not running Protean Hulk. It's a target for Swords to Plowshares and I'm not running any dedicated ways to take advantage of cheating it into play and sacrificing it. Ended up replacing Protean Hulk with Green Sun's Zenith. So many great creatures are green: Dryad Arbor, Birds of Paradise, Kiora's Follower, Reclamation Sage, Seedborn Muse, and Craterhoof Behemoth to name a few at various points on the curve. It's not hard to find a good target at any point in the game.
Also ended up adding Animate Dead. Reasons for it over other reanimation options are (1) it's a permanent and can be copied by Clever Impersonator or cast from the graveyard by Muldrotha, the Gravetide and (2) it's tutor-able with my recent addition of Muddle the Mixture.
An additional note is that I am now hitting a critical mass of mana dorks (Dryad Arbor, Birds of Paradise, Bloom Tender, Deathrite Shaman, Kiora's Follower, Krosan Restorer, Voyaging Satyr) and mana rocks (Chromatic Lantern, Mox Diamond, Sol Ring) that my Aphetto Alchemist is now putting in work a fair amount of the time even when Mesmeric Orb is not out.
Also, I do think we should run the "big-bag-of-tutors." Why not? Currently I've added Demonic Tutor, Diabolic Intent, Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, and Muddle the Mixture. I've also added additional graveyard recursion in the form of Regrowth and Academy Ruins. I agree that the Aphetto Alchemist combo is slower than other combos we can add, but it's the combo I've chosen to go for. Perhaps it has just become a pet combo of mine.