Looking to get into stax with Queen Marchesa at the helm. Currently, one of the finishers is Kiki-Resto/Felidar Guardian, but I really don't like the amount of mana invested into that when I'm staxing the table. I also thought about just throwing swords into the deck, some artifact tutors, then getting in with token makers as a wincon (or the deathtouch commander/assassin). That seems fairly weak to board control, and doesn't sport any inevitability. I don't like going with super meta combos (so no 'Mike and Trike'), so what is an inevitable and staxy finish for the deck?
Tainted Remedy + Tree of Perdition + Triskaidekaphobia entered my mind, but there are most likely better commanders for that (like a dedicated lifeswap deck). On the other hand, a combo as slow as that might belong in a stax deck...
I would like to forewarn that I am on a loose budget. Modern is my primary format, so I lack the funds to spend 800 dollars on my second EDH deck (the first is Marchesa, the Black Rose).
He played 0 Bontu's Last Reckoning and 0 Smallpox as my creatures had that hedged anyway with Hyena Umbra and multiple creatures.
So what was he trying to do to win in that final game with 0 of his best interaction spells?
(Sidenote: I am currently testing two copies of Dromoka's Command in the mainboard. My meta is: Bogles, Affinity, Mardu Pyromancer, D&T, Burn, Tron, R/W Prison.)
"What was the best card out of your sideboard, and why?
Dromoka’s Command. Chris Juliano said so!"
I CALLED IT! Dromoka's Command is good in Bogles!
Also: Jace unbanning seems to be fantastic news for us. By the time he lands we're well established on board, and he can't bounce a Bogle. If midrange becomes popular because of BBE, then we're also favored.
D-Command was something that was tested a few years ago, but the meta has certainly changed a lot since then, so I'd be interested to see how it performs in the current environment.
In regards to the statement claiming Cartouche is strictly better than Hyena Umbra, I think that's a stretch at best. They both give +1/+1 and first strike and that's where the similarities end; each card serves a different function and there are plenty of scenarios where you'd want one over the other.
I didn't say that Cartouche of Solidarity was strictly better, I said it was in 70% of cases. That's not incorrect, as in most matchups Hyena Umbra's totem armor doesn't offer anything. Totem armor does little to nothing against Affinity, Burn, Storm, Humans and Mardu Pyromancer, whereas Cartouche of Solidarity does. While there are some scenarios where you want the totem armor, hence why we run the card in the first place, there are many others where all it does is give +1/+1 and first strike.
I have an off question for you though. In the Pro Tour Rivals of Ixalan, neither Bogles list ran Suppression Field. That's always been a weird question of mine, as I've just used it to counter Lilianas or as additional copies of Stony Silence. I also understand that it's another old sideboard card that we used to fight Twin that just stuck after it was banned. What are the ramifications of running it in our current meta, and do you believe that it would be better to run something like Worship, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Ethersworn Canonist or additional sideoboard card copies?
I personally have not played this deck a TON, per se, but this is something I have more or less thrown together to get my brother back into MTG.
This being said, I just have a few (hopefully) quick questions as to deck options:
--I've been seeing a lot of Seal of Primordiums in sideboard lists, but I've also seen Disenchant and Deglamer/other 2-drop instants of the like. What are the particular benefits of running the instants over Seal? The only benefits I can think of for Seal is that you don't have to pop it straight up (saves mana for later turns and avoids discard) and pumps up Ethereal Armor, but I feel like Disenchant would be better here.
--When I've used this deck, I seem to rely very heavily on Dryad Arbor as a backup Bogle on a regular basis. Is this considered more correct, or should you generally wait for more creatures to draw in normal circumstances?
--I think I know the answer to this one, but is there any decent answer to discard that isn't Leyline of Sanctity? I have a playset, but I'm using them in my deck, which needs them equally as much (Ad Nauseam). The best I've come up with are Noxious Revival and Aegis of the Gods, but these are a stretch at best.
--Until I can acquire Horizon Canopy copies, how should I adjust a deck to compensate? Do I just cut a land or two and throw in some more enchantments?
--What spice have any of you thrown into your decks? My brother on more than one occasion has used his 1-of Mana Tithe and loved every second of it, and if I can find something else to throw in there, that would be awesome. Even just a singleton in the sideboard is good to know.
Thank you guys in advance, this seems like a nice homely community that really knows the deck well. Look forward to the responses!
-- Seal of Primordium is good if you're running into something that will have Blood Moon/Chalice as well as counterspells to back them up. You can cast Seal as soon as shield are down to keep Moon off the table. It's easier to slip in past counters. Personally I've been running Krosan Grip as there has been a pesky Nahiri Prison player in my meta who gets Chalice on one AND two faster than I can say "why do you always have Simian Spirit Gui--- *CHALICED*"
-- It sounds as though you need to get used to mulligans a bit more. That's usually what I see people leaning on when they don't mull aggressively enough. Could be wrong, it's just my impression
-- In a different deck I've enjoyed Nephalia Academy as a counter to discard...but that's useless in this deck. I wish there was another answer.
-- I used Brushland. I will stress that Canopy gives the deck SO much extra reach. Bogles with Canopy is 100%, without it you're running at 80% efficiency.
-- OOH, OOH, I CAN ANSWER THIS ONE! Let's see, I've run Cartouche of Strength before! It once got me out from under triple Deflecting Palm by lifelinking me to safety. It's a really great card, and I've used it to counter our Skred player's Stormbreath Dragons.
There's Open the Armory, which technically adds copies of Daybreak Coronet, Rancor, and Ethereal Armor while allowing you to run a jank toolbox sideboard with things like Wheel of Sun and Moon as silver bullet graveyard hate.
One thing I'm about to test is Dromoka's Command in place of Path to Exile. It gives us a TON of mainboard tech against many decks in the format, even when they have no creatures.
Against Burn: Counter a Deflecting Palm and fight a creature, or put a counter on our lifelink creature and have it fight to gain a ton of life.
Against Control: Force them to sac Search for Azcanta or Blood Moon
Just two examples I thought would get the conversation going.
I think Dromoka's Command seems much better in theory than it actually plays out. The scenarios where it shines are pretty narrow. I tested it last year for a bit. I think you'll be happier with Path. Just cleaner and more efficient. I don't love path but it's easily the best white/green has to offer. I think killing something with Path that doesn't HAVE to be killed is a mistake a lot of people make when they first pick up the deck. Accelerating Merfolk or Humans or Jund on turn 2,3,4 is not where you want to be. I don't cast Path unless I absolutely have to.
Spirit Link is a great card but comes with the downside of not buffing the creature. I usually play one in the main and one in the board. It's def not a card you want to see a ton of.. but it can turn things massively in your favor against fast creature decks (affinity, merfolk, humans, goblins...). It's just almost completely dead against things like Tron, Strom, and Lantern.
Of course. I've piloted Bogles for years now and tested a wide range of different choices. However, at the very least Command is not dead in as many matchups as Path is. It also doesn't have the major downside of ramping your opponent, so it can get rid of an incidental creature while giving an incidental advantage. Think of the matchups where Path is dead or just a bad decision:
Control
Tron
Humans
Against control it gets rid of BM/Search, can remove Snap without making you feel like you just gave them a free Rampant Growth, and at the VERY least can grow your creature. Path is better against Tron, to be sure, as preventing them from getting Wurmcoil value is key. Against Humans, or any creature-based deck, getting lifegain from the fight and just growing the creature is doing far more than Path ever does. Don't forget the ORIGINAL reason why Bogles picked up Path. We did it so that we could fight against Splinter Twin. Since then, people just run them anyway. Honestly, NOT running removal mainboard at all could in fact yield a lot of success. Coming from someone who playtested Cartouche of Strength against Storm, Mardu Pyromancer, Affinity, and Tron and been COMPLETELY satisfied, I think that we shouldn't sleep on Dromoka's Command so quickly.
On the topic of Spirit Link, I find that for every case where it would be good, Cartouche of Solidarity is better. For every instance where it WOULD be useful, about half the time it's just a "win-more" card. Cartouche gives stats, is a strictly better Hyena Umbra in 70% of cases, gains life in the form of a blocker, and gives more damage in the form of your free attacker. Replacing Spirit Link with it also adds redundancy so that edict effects mean nothing. Finally, in the matchups where it shines, we already are highly favored to win. Drawing one in a scenario where it actually gives you a distinct advantage over Cartouche happens once in a blue moon. I believe that it works better in a world where we don't run mainboard Leylines, where we don't desperately need our auras to give stats.
One thing I'm about to test is Dromoka's Command in place of Path to Exile. It gives us a TON of mainboard tech against many decks in the format, even when they have no creatures.
Against Burn: Counter a Deflecting Palm and fight a creature, or put a counter on our lifelink creature and have it fight to gain a ton of life.
Against Control: Force them to sac Search for Azcanta or Blood Moon
Just two examples I thought would get the conversation going.
This was my stab at Bant Bogles. The deck runs one less land because Curious Obsession will likely draw us into one land, similar to Turbo Xerox. We don't need as many Umbras because Stubborn Denial has our back. Please ignore the manabase, as it is not what we're discussing at the moment.
At that point, I would just prefer Ajani, Caller of the Pride. For all intents and purposes, he does the SAME thing, except you can choose to give the -3 without fulfilling a condition and for free. I've played around with Ajani to great success over the years. That isn't too helpful, as we are trying to incentivize blue here. Unstable Mutation acts as a second copy of Ethereal Armor, adding explosiveness to the blue build that it normally sacrifices to add consistency. Hadana's Climb clashes heavily with Unstable Mutation.
I agree that Curious Obsession is good enough to put Bant Bogles into the conversation. The worst part about Keen Sense is that often it's just a cantrip that has some synergy with Ethereal Armor. This bypasses that downside by giving some real stats. It has that synergy with Ethereal Armor, it is a cantrip, BUT you get a permanent buff that ensures that it's always relevant. The endstep downside, let's be real, isn't even relevant here. You're rarely going to drop a Bogle and auras on the same turn anyway, AND it should be noted that you don't even have to attack with the enchanted creature to avoid the trigger anyway. This is a real card; don't underappreciate it just because Keen Sense isn't that good in our deck anymore.
But it doesn't matter if Hanweir Garrison is outclassed. As I said, if you attack once, that's two bodies to pump with Lieutenant and Mayor, two counters on Champion and Lietenant, and two bodies to block affinity creatures. Don't get me wrong, I TOTALLY get that Mantis Rider is better on the turn cycle you play it. In such a fast format, immediate value is king. Still, I would think that I would see SOMEONE brewing with it. It's just weird to me.
Oh I don't know... possibly because it's barely a real word that is literally never used in discourse or written work. Furthermore, it can technically be spelled either way. I can't believe you would post in the OFFICIAL bogles thread, and, might I add, use way to many comas, and, not even know, that.
I guess I just expect people posting in this forum to play or at least be somewhat familiar with the subject. The card doesn't read Slippery Bogle/Boggle, it reads Slippery Bogle. Every reference to Bogles in-game spells them a certain way. There is no technicality.
I get why Mantis Riders is run; it impacts the battlefield the turn it enters. That being said, isn't the payoff of Hanweir Garrison worth the risk? IF it sticks, you pump Thalia's Lieutenant and Champion of the Parish, or you can pump the team with the formerly mentioned Lieutenant. It seems as though swinging once generates more value than Mantis Rider, even if Garrison itself is killed in combat or the turn after.
As a disclaimer, I do not play Humans. I'm a Bogles player who is reaping the benefits of the meta you guys created. Still, I'm glad to see Champion of the Parish finally getting the spotlight he deserves.
I just replaced Spirit Link with another Cartouche of Solidarity and tested it several times against Mardu Pyromancer. It makes SUCH a difference. It really just does what Spirit Link does. The body it creates, in aggressive matchups where you might need lifelink, can act as a blocker, so the replaced Spirit Link is barely missed!
Sidenote: These games were also the first time I played with a full playset of Horizon Canopy in the deck. I shudder when I think that at one time I ran Brushlands without complaint. For anyone waffling over whether or not they improve the deck by any meaningful amount, waffle no longer. They give the deck SO much reach. You never have to worry about flooding ever again, and they draw you into action and sideboard pieces.
I didn't say it was going to be the new standard for boggles, just something to catch people off guard. You drop a turn of speed for interaction basically.
How does one post in the official Bogles thread, one, might I add, that has the name "BOGLE" in the title, and MISSPELL the name? How does it happen that people misspell the name at all?
What is the motiviation behind running Spirit Mantle over Gryff's Boon? I mean, yes Boon can make us open to being chumped by Lingering Souls, but it's not THAT common in the meta at the moment. Secondly, it seems as though most lists have dropped Spirit Link.
Recently I just picked up the last of my Horizon Canopies. As some in this thread know, I've been experimenting with Cartouche of Strength to replace Unflinching Courage, but now the move from 3cmc auras to 2 and 1 has me guessing.
So, long have I insisted that Storm was a great matchup for us. I used to play against it pre-Baral, and it gets absolutely hosed by Leylines and RiP. Now that Baral is out, my opinion is starting to shift.
Game 1 against Storm, I get the turn two Rancor Ethereal Armor nut draw. He's fetched rather aggressively, fetch/shocking himself twice. Now at nine, he plays Baral. On my turn three, I Cartouche of Strength him and swing for the proverbial win.
Game 2, and on the play: he looks at my turn one, and plays a ritual into Blood Moon. I detest not being able to play magic because Wizards refuses to ban a card that wins games on its own.
Game 3, I fetch for a basic forest turn one, worrying about my hand of Hyena Umbra and Ethereal Armor. Thankfully, I DID get a Leyline. Drawing into a RiP, I feel like the game is pretty much locked in. While I have yet to get an aura on the Bogle, I DO have a Path to hit Electromancer with. After he casts a Wear/Tear on the RiP, I path my second Bogle in order to start throwing auras. This turns out to be a mistake as the next turn, he storms off and flashes back Wear/Tear for the win.
In retrospect, I don't think either of us remembered that Gifts blanks on a hexproof opponent. I should have also pathed his Electroman, but it was certainly a learning experience.
I didn't expect Cartouche of Strength to be good even against Storm. It constantly surprises me. Storm also seems to be in a good place right now. While Baral and Shock Man are the epitome of "fast mana" when put in the perspective of generating colorless mana per spellcast, the deck doesn't seem overly strong. What lost me the match was Blood Moon, plain and simple. Stupid card.
Tainted Remedy + Tree of Perdition + Triskaidekaphobia entered my mind, but there are most likely better commanders for that (like a dedicated lifeswap deck). On the other hand, a combo as slow as that might belong in a stax deck...
I would like to forewarn that I am on a loose budget. Modern is my primary format, so I lack the funds to spend 800 dollars on my second EDH deck (the first is Marchesa, the Black Rose).
I thought you were saying that he sided them all out. The Sideboard Scoop, that's what that would be.
So what was he trying to do to win in that final game with 0 of his best interaction spells?
(Sidenote: I am currently testing two copies of Dromoka's Command in the mainboard. My meta is: Bogles, Affinity, Mardu Pyromancer, D&T, Burn, Tron, R/W Prison.)
Dromoka’s Command. Chris Juliano said so!"
I CALLED IT! Dromoka's Command is good in Bogles!
Also: Jace unbanning seems to be fantastic news for us. By the time he lands we're well established on board, and he can't bounce a Bogle. If midrange becomes popular because of BBE, then we're also favored.
I didn't say that Cartouche of Solidarity was strictly better, I said it was in 70% of cases. That's not incorrect, as in most matchups Hyena Umbra's totem armor doesn't offer anything. Totem armor does little to nothing against Affinity, Burn, Storm, Humans and Mardu Pyromancer, whereas Cartouche of Solidarity does. While there are some scenarios where you want the totem armor, hence why we run the card in the first place, there are many others where all it does is give +1/+1 and first strike.
I have an off question for you though. In the Pro Tour Rivals of Ixalan, neither Bogles list ran Suppression Field. That's always been a weird question of mine, as I've just used it to counter Lilianas or as additional copies of Stony Silence. I also understand that it's another old sideboard card that we used to fight Twin that just stuck after it was banned. What are the ramifications of running it in our current meta, and do you believe that it would be better to run something like Worship, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Ethersworn Canonist or additional sideoboard card copies?
-- Seal of Primordium is good if you're running into something that will have Blood Moon/Chalice as well as counterspells to back them up. You can cast Seal as soon as shield are down to keep Moon off the table. It's easier to slip in past counters. Personally I've been running Krosan Grip as there has been a pesky Nahiri Prison player in my meta who gets Chalice on one AND two faster than I can say "why do you always have Simian Spirit Gui--- *CHALICED*"
-- It sounds as though you need to get used to mulligans a bit more. That's usually what I see people leaning on when they don't mull aggressively enough. Could be wrong, it's just my impression
-- In a different deck I've enjoyed Nephalia Academy as a counter to discard...but that's useless in this deck. I wish there was another answer.
-- I used Brushland. I will stress that Canopy gives the deck SO much extra reach. Bogles with Canopy is 100%, without it you're running at 80% efficiency.
-- OOH, OOH, I CAN ANSWER THIS ONE! Let's see, I've run Cartouche of Strength before! It once got me out from under triple Deflecting Palm by lifelinking me to safety. It's a really great card, and I've used it to counter our Skred player's Stormbreath Dragons.
There's Open the Armory, which technically adds copies of Daybreak Coronet, Rancor, and Ethereal Armor while allowing you to run a jank toolbox sideboard with things like Wheel of Sun and Moon as silver bullet graveyard hate.
Of course. I've piloted Bogles for years now and tested a wide range of different choices. However, at the very least Command is not dead in as many matchups as Path is. It also doesn't have the major downside of ramping your opponent, so it can get rid of an incidental creature while giving an incidental advantage. Think of the matchups where Path is dead or just a bad decision:
Control
Tron
Humans
Against control it gets rid of BM/Search, can remove Snap without making you feel like you just gave them a free Rampant Growth, and at the VERY least can grow your creature. Path is better against Tron, to be sure, as preventing them from getting Wurmcoil value is key. Against Humans, or any creature-based deck, getting lifegain from the fight and just growing the creature is doing far more than Path ever does. Don't forget the ORIGINAL reason why Bogles picked up Path. We did it so that we could fight against Splinter Twin. Since then, people just run them anyway. Honestly, NOT running removal mainboard at all could in fact yield a lot of success. Coming from someone who playtested Cartouche of Strength against Storm, Mardu Pyromancer, Affinity, and Tron and been COMPLETELY satisfied, I think that we shouldn't sleep on Dromoka's Command so quickly.
On the topic of Spirit Link, I find that for every case where it would be good, Cartouche of Solidarity is better. For every instance where it WOULD be useful, about half the time it's just a "win-more" card. Cartouche gives stats, is a strictly better Hyena Umbra in 70% of cases, gains life in the form of a blocker, and gives more damage in the form of your free attacker. Replacing Spirit Link with it also adds redundancy so that edict effects mean nothing. Finally, in the matchups where it shines, we already are highly favored to win. Drawing one in a scenario where it actually gives you a distinct advantage over Cartouche happens once in a blue moon. I believe that it works better in a world where we don't run mainboard Leylines, where we don't desperately need our auras to give stats.
Against Burn: Counter a Deflecting Palm and fight a creature, or put a counter on our lifelink creature and have it fight to gain a ton of life.
Against Control: Force them to sac Search for Azcanta or Blood Moon
Just two examples I thought would get the conversation going.
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Daybreak Coronet
4x Ethereal Armor
4x Rancor
4x Spider Umbra
4x Unstable Mutation
4x Gladecover Scout
4x Invisible Stalker
4x Slippery Bogle
4x Curious Obsession
2x Path to Exile
3x Stubborn Denial
This was my stab at Bant Bogles. The deck runs one less land because Curious Obsession will likely draw us into one land, similar to Turbo Xerox. We don't need as many Umbras because Stubborn Denial has our back. Please ignore the manabase, as it is not what we're discussing at the moment.
I agree that Curious Obsession is good enough to put Bant Bogles into the conversation. The worst part about Keen Sense is that often it's just a cantrip that has some synergy with Ethereal Armor. This bypasses that downside by giving some real stats. It has that synergy with Ethereal Armor, it is a cantrip, BUT you get a permanent buff that ensures that it's always relevant. The endstep downside, let's be real, isn't even relevant here. You're rarely going to drop a Bogle and auras on the same turn anyway, AND it should be noted that you don't even have to attack with the enchanted creature to avoid the trigger anyway. This is a real card; don't underappreciate it just because Keen Sense isn't that good in our deck anymore.
Would people run four Garrisons if it had haste?
I guess I just expect people posting in this forum to play or at least be somewhat familiar with the subject. The card doesn't read Slippery Bogle/Boggle, it reads Slippery Bogle. Every reference to Bogles in-game spells them a certain way. There is no technicality.
As a disclaimer, I do not play Humans. I'm a Bogles player who is reaping the benefits of the meta you guys created. Still, I'm glad to see Champion of the Parish finally getting the spotlight he deserves.
Sidenote: These games were also the first time I played with a full playset of Horizon Canopy in the deck. I shudder when I think that at one time I ran Brushlands without complaint. For anyone waffling over whether or not they improve the deck by any meaningful amount, waffle no longer. They give the deck SO much reach. You never have to worry about flooding ever again, and they draw you into action and sideboard pieces.
How does one post in the official Bogles thread, one, might I add, that has the name "BOGLE" in the title, and MISSPELL the name? How does it happen that people misspell the name at all?
Recently I just picked up the last of my Horizon Canopies. As some in this thread know, I've been experimenting with Cartouche of Strength to replace Unflinching Courage, but now the move from 3cmc auras to 2 and 1 has me guessing.
Game 1 against Storm, I get the turn two Rancor Ethereal Armor nut draw. He's fetched rather aggressively, fetch/shocking himself twice. Now at nine, he plays Baral. On my turn three, I Cartouche of Strength him and swing for the proverbial win.
Game 2, and on the play: he looks at my turn one, and plays a ritual into Blood Moon. I detest not being able to play magic because Wizards refuses to ban a card that wins games on its own.
Game 3, I fetch for a basic forest turn one, worrying about my hand of Hyena Umbra and Ethereal Armor. Thankfully, I DID get a Leyline. Drawing into a RiP, I feel like the game is pretty much locked in. While I have yet to get an aura on the Bogle, I DO have a Path to hit Electromancer with. After he casts a Wear/Tear on the RiP, I path my second Bogle in order to start throwing auras. This turns out to be a mistake as the next turn, he storms off and flashes back Wear/Tear for the win.
In retrospect, I don't think either of us remembered that Gifts blanks on a hexproof opponent. I should have also pathed his Electroman, but it was certainly a learning experience.
I didn't expect Cartouche of Strength to be good even against Storm. It constantly surprises me. Storm also seems to be in a good place right now. While Baral and Shock Man are the epitome of "fast mana" when put in the perspective of generating colorless mana per spellcast, the deck doesn't seem overly strong. What lost me the match was Blood Moon, plain and simple. Stupid card.