Match 1 - Rock
G1: Chalice on 1 -> Moon -> Bridge. Koth -> Emblem -> Concession. Guess I saw a Goyf.
G2: Double discard on Rabble and Haz. Chandra. Bridge, Bridge, a Lilly from them at some point. Emblem and game.
Match 2 - Ad Nauseam
G1: Chalice on 1 followed up by Chandra. Opponent seems to be on the all 1 drops plan. They do land an Unlife, but have nothing besides an Attack Monkey to block my evergrowing army of Goblins.
G2: Opponent mulls to 4, suspending a Lotus and playing an Urborg. Play a land, Chal on 0. They don't have anything, so I proceed to play another land and power out a Molten Rain. Playing a Chandra on their empty board brings out another concession.
Match 3 - GWR Goodstuff or something uhh
G1: They Temple Garden into Rugged Praerie into Looting? I'm like uhh I don't get it. Play T2 Moon anyway. They do get a flashback out of their Looting but the Bolt to follow is the last spell they play. Chandra is too much and they give up.
G2: This is where Molten Rain truly shows its power. They get a Forest out but I moon. Chal on 1. Bloodbraid, Goyf...one Abraded, another one spawns...a Bridge stops it all. I topdeck the Molten Rain and destroy their only basic. That's it, especially after a Chandra and a Chal on 2.
Match 4 - UW Control
G1: T1 Moon does absolutely nothing given their Island and Plains to follow. It even eats a Sphere, but I have another one. Teferi, Koth...Koth goes back to the deck. Jace. I try to desperately land a Chandra, but after getting Negated I give up.
G2: Go go Little Chandra! T1 Chal on 1. T2 Little Chandra. T3 Attack, Moon, untap, ping, transform. Uptick. A Big Chandra. Uptick both. They do try to slow me down with a Clique but I keep the pressure on. Oh did you guys realize Little Chandra can also tag PWs???!!? They have no chance whatsoever.
G3: A reaaaally tough call on the starting hand. Rabble, Rabble, Moon, Simian, Gemstone, Mountain, Chalice. I decide to pitch the other Rabble, which might have cost me the game. I do draw a Mountain, and I'm facing an Island. I figure they might just play a Fetch, so I moon. Big mistake - they play a Plains. I mean, I could've just played a Rabble, but I thought, what if they have a Path? Like, I could just play a Chal on 1 the next turn and the Rabble after that. Well it doesn't unfortunately work that way this time around and they even counter my Chal. A topdecked Eidolon gets Leaked. They play a Stony Silence (what??? it's quite apparent people still don't understand our deck lol) and I play a Rabble. I figure this is my chance, but nope. They have a Sphere. We keep trading blows, Timely Reinforcements, Moon, nothing matters. Boil is countered. Teferi pretty much threatens to end the game but I keep drawing gas. This was pretty good btw: they have 2 Islands and a Plains so I Rain the Plains. A Chainwhirler kills their 2 Mages but they STILL draw into 2 more Plains, finally landing an Angel. That was quite frustrating because without the extra Plains, I would've just ran over them with my Rabble and Whirler. Oh well, it was reeaaaaally close. Could've gone the other way, like really.
Match 5 - Grixis DS
G1: Blah blah Chal on 1 blah blah Stubby D blah blah Bridge concede.
G2: This is another super close a match. They destroy my hand but I topdeck a ritual into a Hazoret. I ALMOST kill them but they have not one, not two, but THREE DSses AND a Zombie Fish. I mean, there's no chance I'm getting through all that and I just die facing three 10/10 DSses.
G3: Ahahaha. They do rip my Chal but I go Eidolon, Eidolon, Eidolon. Try even a Chandra in between. One gets blocked by a Snappie but comeon. They can't obviously keep up and can't play anything else, game over.
Thoughts. Molten Rain is still AWESOME. It's like, it always helps. It's GREAT against combo, setting them back by a whole turn. OR - you just 100% lock them down killing their one single basic. Especially with rituals it becomes a T2 LD. I'd want a third one but I can't fit it in. Also good against control, maybe not so much against aggro...but still the possibility of ruining their post-Moon life is golden.
Little Chandra's also great! It's basically a 3 CMC Chandra that can fight THEIR planeswalkers. I mean it's not exactly great against aggro but still if you can play 2 red spells in a single turn you do get to transform it. Or, if everything else fails it's at least a threat (albeit a very weak one).
Grafdigger's Cage was still not missed but to be fair not even needed with these matchups.
OK that's all I can think of this late. Have a good one.
Try a 2nd hazoret over the dragon in the main deck and let me know how that goes.
Oh man - this is EXACTLY what I ended up doing after spreading the 75 ahead of me and doing some thinking. But you mean have one more in the SB as well? Hmm. Might work? Have to test it.
@Revenged -- You and I think very similarly. Which is of course to say, there's a lot more mountain for us to climb - improvement needed When you posted your main deck 'stock list', I noticed it is almost exactly the same as what I've been running. Except: I'm +1 Walking Ballista and you're +1 Pyretic Ritual, and as for Land: I'm +1 Mutavault and you're +1 Mountain - oh, and I'm running ramunap ruins - small difference there. ALSO on similarity, you took out my Version 1.0 Trash Dragons build for a 5-0 finish in a friendly, and accurately broke down its accelerated mechanics in a succinct article. So, yeah, like the professor Sam Kinnison once told his student Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School the movie: "Good Answer. Good Answer. I like the way you think. I'll be watching you."
Right, so! Exact card choices don't matter, as long as the "core" stays quite intact. Mutavault, Mountain, Ruins...what does it matter. They are all going to be Mountains anyway as the game goes on, right? And yessss...Trash Dragons is da bomb. I'm kinda hesitant on taking it to a big tournament with an unknown meta due to its inherent inconsistency, but it's absolutely superb for goldfishing leagues. Oh yeah.
You noted the (8) Rituals - yeah, I'm with you nowadays. I've brought in the single Pyretic and dropped the Anger of the Gods count to (2). Fluffy just 5-0 again with (4) Anger in the MD, so it's a matchup dependent gamble either way - but, hey 4 worked for him, and you're doing 3. Sideboard: my 15th card is Grafdigger's cage - noticed you are up/down on that one too. Tough call, but I think it's kind of a 1/2 Anger of the Gods play, and it hurts Vizier/Coco - Dredge - Animator - Mardu...enough other decks.
OK, so. 22 lands + 9 rituals - looks like we're on the same boat on that indeed. The number of MD/SB sweepers should be 2/2, 3/1 or 4/0. I'm going to go ahead and say the first or the second option is the correct one...
But. Grafdigger's Cage. Let's give this one a bit more thought. It is a card - and it does things. Not saying that. But, to my mind, a SB slot is something that should, if not completely win you the match, at least tilt the game very strongly in your favour. Cage does neither. I'll explain.
CoCo decks are somewhat hurt by it, but it's still a very steep uphill climb. Let's say you play it immediately and they can't Collected Company/Chord of Calling. What happens, is that they will switch gears and start grinding value with Tireless Trackers and whatnot. If, and only if, you also have a Blood Moon AND they miss their basics AND they miss on their Birds/Hierarchs - you might have a chance. Cage by itself, does very little. I think the only way to win this fight is to go all in on threats, and pray.
Dredge - yes. It prevents GY shenanigans. But this MU is already good for us, so there's that. An additional hedge is not really needed, if we're already running Bridges and Angers. Speaking of which, at least one of either is still going to needed, since they can just hardcast their threats. Actually, I kinda group Dredge, Vengevine and Hollow One together. What's common among them is a Cage DOES slow them all down considerably by turning off their Plan A. All that being said, this/these matchup(s) is/are the one scenario where I kinda understand wanting a Cage. But is it enough to warrant an actual SB slot...uhh IDK.
Reanimator. OK - this is one matchup where the Cage really does shine. But still, it's nothing an Ensnaring Bridge and a Damping Matrix can't handle. It does fit the criteria of "be a silver bullet or bust", though. The thing is, this deck is quite rare to encounter nowadays - I can't even remember the last time I've seen it? Should we really be preparing for a random encounter? It's not like the slots in the SB are a dime a dozen, yes?
And the last one, Mardu Pyromancer. Hum. Faithless Looting and Lingering Souls are now un-flashbackable. And that's pretty much it. It's not like they can't still cast them, only the backside has a stop sign slapped on them. I don't think they care at all. This is also one game where you bring in all the threats and none of the fear. No guts, no glory.
So what's left? Storm, maybe...but I'd much rather have a Witchbane Orb since it helps a LOT with other decks as well. I suppose there are others but yeah. I'm sorry Cage. It's not really working out with us. I think it's time to let go.
As for the Hardened Scales Affinity Matchup, and our struggles against it? One Word: Shatterstorm Yup. Burn it allllll down. Fluffy has bopped one into his sideboard here and there, and it's always been on my mind (one of my absolute favorite cards from Antiquities). The rise of KCI made it a potential consideration. Affinity out there, sure, so there's that. Then? Hardened Scales Affinity.
These 3 decks are juggernauts. Shattering Spree can't contain them, never mind the 'replicate' sequencing nightmare in MODO once they start arcbound ravager saccing. Burn it all down, and nothing lives and nothing regenerates. I've got one in my sideboard. It's a doomsday device, but it should turn a game that's gone out of hand right back into a potential win. Heck! Ain't like we don't play a ton of non-combo spells already. 1 More on the Big Board!!!
A, WHAT. That's uhh...wow. Bringing out the big guns, are you? No, don't get me wrong, that might be the road to take indeed. They can't even use their Welding Jars! OK - I'm gonna go out on a limb and try the following list, based on all the ideas getting throwed around here.
Shoutouts to Raystack for being the supportive old sport as always! Glad to know you enjoyed both my long(ish) article of sorts and the follow up with the new deck list. You mentioned giving the extra land (here: Buried Ruin) a go - how's that feel for you? I did notice a missing Ritual in your decklist, intentional or did you swap one-for-one? Not a bad idea. But the numbers fanatic I am, reducing the ritual count from 9 to 8 reduces the % of having at least 1 in your opener from 70% to 65%. Is it too big a drop - not sure. I will say having a Ritual in your starting seven very often spells the difference between a good or a mediocre hand, though. 22 lands - love the half land, half spell term - and 9 ritual effects is a lot...but we are asking a lot also from our deck, hmm?
That being said...I did run my list back and what do you know - it was another 4-1, with the loss to - drum roll - Scales Affinity. And yes, it was the finals again. Other matches were Tron, Mardu Pyromancer, Grixis DS and Bogles. OK, so Bogles is kind of a snoozefest, but DS can be tricky at times and Mardu/Tron definitely can give you a lot of trouble. So I'm happy with the results.
But that Scaleffinity really bogs me down. Isn't there anything we can do? Maybe it's time to follow Russ' lead and bring the Shattering Sprees back.
There was one change, though...I removed the Faerie Macabres and put the 3 Eidolon of the Great Revels and 1 Grafdigger's Cage back. I think Russ was the one who said it - "do we even need GY hate?" I'm starting to think no. Even the Cage is kinda questionable - it's mostly being used as a hedge against CoCo and the likes. But even then it might be just too cute, 1 CMC is also a big problem. I don't know. Maybe the slot could be freed...hmm.
As for the results - I must say Molten Rain did it again! OK, this time backed with Eidolon. Maybe 4 Molten Rains is a bit excessive...2 might be the correct number. But given the huge popularity of both Tron and Basic Lands at the moment, it's not bad. MD Angers let me win against Mardu. Hazoret is also a definite keeper in the SB.
Buried Ruin is really nice. Having the opponent make you discard your Ensnaring Bridge and then just getting it back, while they can't do anything about it...well, even if that doesn't happen it's still a land. Can't go wrong with that, right? It helps with discards, is all I'm saying.
Not hugely sold on Avaricious Dragon. I mean, it's alright, but alright's not enough. Is it better thank PnK? Bah, I dunno. Just feels...bad.
I did ask this on Discord also, but how would you feel about Blood Knight in the SB? Could be alright against UW Control and anywhere you need a blocker. Just a thought. Might try it.
Almost 5-0'd a Comp league (so 4-1 actually) with this jank...
Games were against Humans, Elves, Soulflayer Jund, Tron and Scales Affinity (<- loss). Not gonna bother writing it all out - Humans is favourable. So is Elves. Soulflayer thingy was weird, but Moonable. Tron handed it over to me due to Molten Rains. And Affinity just ran me over with 3 Ballistas in the last game. Too bad.
Notable differences: 22 lands. This is my jam. The extra one is Buried Ruin -> extra Bridge. Can't really run Deserts due to special liking to Koth. IMO the Deserts are quite a corner case usually. I've won a couple games due to the extra reach, still. Difference ain't huge, depends mostly on whether or not you run Koth. But again - going to 22 lands increases the chance of drawing at least 2 in your opening seven to 81%. Which is greater than 4/5 times -> 21 lands is 78% which is lower than 4/5 times. How many times you've looked at your one-lander, thinking ohhh why only 1...don't skimp on land boys&girls...
No Ballista. Never liked it. Sorry.
SB: No Eidolon/Scabbie either! What herecy is this! Molten Rains in their stead. Let's compare them:
Eidolon/Scabbie better:
Storm
Burn (but still mediocre)
Lantern (favourable MU anyway)
KCI (still not enough, Chalice on 1 and Matrix or bust)
Molten better:
Jund
Tron
UWx Control
To name just a few. So Molten Rains actually make hard matchups a tad better. In G2, it's quite a usual scenario where you Moon them, but they still manage to squeeze out 1 basic. Well, this takes care of the problem. Especially against Jund which is normally abysmal - but now you might just be able to lock them out of the game! In my match against Tron, the 2 Molten Rains forced them to stay behind while Rabblemaster ran over them. Had those cards been Eidolons, I would've lost.
Also - Eidolon is not really good against control, let's be honest here. They just Bolt/Path it and take 2. Always. Always...you need something else to supplement that. And that something is a Moon, but a Molten Rain will actually lock them down since they are going to have basics at that point anyway in G2/3. 2 Boils would be nice in the current meta, but even 1 is OK.
This is still up in the air obviously, but I might just be ditching the extra threats. Shrug.
Faerie Macabre idea was stolen from Fluffy. Thanks! But never got to use them. Maybe later.
That's pretty much it...I really liked this I must say. Gotta run it back a few times to see what's it all about.
Caligula's comments on Skrimbot's questions and concerns bring up some valid points:
- Why is the deck still not recognized - even though it's winning?
- Is Pyro Prison unique in the sense that it folds hard to the "matchup lottery"?
- Should you even be playing a deck that has "unwinnable" matchups?
I'm going to answer all of these three questions in one big go by turning this into a semi-article on playability of Pyro Prison. So bear with me...
The deck is flying under the radar because it's not being played by many. Cold fact. The "tierity" - if that is even an actual word - of a deck says absolutely nothing about it's power level. Null. Zilch. Zero. It's 100% about the popularity. Mono Green Tron is "Tier 1" because it's popular. Humans is "Tier 1" because it's popular. Affinity is "Tier 1" because, well, it's popular. The success rate will always be obfuscated by the small, minority crowd, that is winning. So, it looks like T1 decks are super powerful even though a lot of folks are actually struggling to win with them. This small detail is just often left out...for every T1 win out there, there are 10 losses that are never being recorded.
The lottery aspect of Pyro Prison is not unique - not by a long shot. Have you ever tried to win with Tron against Burn? With Burn against Storm? With Storm against UWx Control? Heck - with Humans against Pyro Prison? The common denominator is that it will be difficult - but not impossible. All you need is the opponent to draw badly and it can be done. So, no - Pyro Prison doesn't have any "unwinnable matchups" any more than any other deck out there, only favourable and unfavourable, with differing amounts.
The former two statements make the last question moot. Arguably, no, you shouldn't be playing a deck with unwinnable matchups - because there aren't any decks like that, yes? It's the illusion of disbelief, the strong impression that since you are losing a lot against a certain archetype, they, on the other hand, must always be winning right? Which is obviously nonsense, see my previous paragraph.
The first question still goes unanswered, though. Yes - it's not recognized because it ain't popular - but that's not really saying a lot. The question is more like: WHY is it not popular? The gut reaction would be that the deck is just plain "bad". It's bad because it's "totally luck based and requires zero skill". We've all heard this in one way or the other. But if this is true how come Stickballruss is having, to indirectly quote him, an 80% win rate? Why is Raystack, along with FluffyWolf, winning a league after a league - not to name the rest of the crew? Sure, they are losing, too, but they are still winning more than losing. Surely not all of these guys can just be experiencing a lucky streak? Or maybe they just manipulate the luck itself wherever they can...?
Or you could turn this around - it's too difficult a deck, therefore, it can't be popular. Caligula is telling us about a player who plays Pyro Prison sometimes but "it's really hard, and he doesn't want to put in the time it would take to play it well". But is Pyro Prison really a difficult deck to play? There is - at least on the surface - not a lot going on. You play a Blood Moon/Chalice of the Void/Ensnaring Bridge and that's it. If all goes well, you eventually will complement this "combo" with a threat and run away with the game. That doesn't sound too hard to execute, now does it?
...or that's at least what many people are going to tell you. A common misconception is that the deck is mostly based on luck. You either get a "Blood Moon out or you lose". Or something like that. But we all know better. There is a lot more going on behind the scenes than pure luck. Sure - the favours of the RNG Gods have their say - but such is the case with all MTG decks out there. Some decks just have more built-in resiliency than others. A midrangey approach will always outdraw an aggro deck. And control is going to wreck combo in the long game. This is quite straightforward and just a fact - a feature, even, of Magic: the Gathering.
The thing is, though - while you cannot directly control what you draw, be it the opening seven or just your next topdeck - you can control other factors. Any given deck operates on two axis: consistency and explosiveness. This groundwork was laid down already in the Stone Age of Pyro Prison, by none other than Raystack himself. He even argued that explosiveness is the bigger & badder of the two.
But both approaches do work. A control deck is built all-in on consistency and just about none in explosiveness. Combo decks are often the complete opposites: inconsistent but explosive. What this boils down to, is that for a deck to be competitive, it needs to achieve a certain amount "in total". To put this is other words - if a deck is neither consistent nor explosive, it's not going to work. Which is kind of obvious...
So where does that place us, and HOW exactly do you win, if it's not just luck?
Pyro Prison is most certainly an explosive deck. It's not a "fair" deck, but it IS an interactive one. You can't win by just ignoring your opponent. "Win" consistency doesn't come through a single match, but through repetition. Repetition gains you experience, which translates to knowledge. Knowledge about the field, what to expect. Knowledge about other decks, even other players! In essence, it's not about having the "correct line of play" or the "trump cards" - it's knowing your opponents equivalents.
Skill with this deck is almost 100% analogous with your understanding of the metagame. Knowing what the opponent is up to and what they are trying to achieve is THE most important aspect of being successful. I would even go as far as to say that the deck is actually quite straightforward to pilot, in a vacuum. Determining your correct play comes naturally after figuring out theirs. This might change in the course of the actual gameplay, but the basic premise won't. If you know what they are trying to do, you know how to counter it.
You want to be good with the deck? Learn the other decks, learn their game plans. Online articles provide a ton of information on how to play and understand them. Best would be to play with them all yourself: you'll be aware of their biggest fears when facing this deck. Maybe even ask a friend to help you walk through a reverse gauntlet of sorts: let them be the pilot while you try to win them. A lot of work, sure, but not in the traditional sense of "learning a deck".
And that's what it's all about with Pyro Prison - less about the deck itself and more about the others...
Hey all. Promised to write a short report after 5-0ing a friendly league. Turned up a bit longer...sorry. I played Ray's Thrash Dragons - the MTGO Classic list. Was excelleeeeeent!
Match 1 U/W Control
Game 1: T2 Moon. Chalice on 2 gets countered but a Chandra pushes through. Opponent concedes.
Game 2: T2 Moon, T3 Rabblemaster. Opponent concedes. Also sends a couple of salty messages before quitting.
Match 2 Vengevine
Game 1: T1 Chalice on 1. Opponent concedes. Is this a pattern I'm starting to see?
Game 2: Was quite hard to sideboard. But I correctly place the opponent on some sort of aggro plan placed on the immediate concession to a Chalice. Rabblemasters out, Spellskite and uh, something in? I think I took Angers as well. Anyway, opponent is playing a couple of 1/1s (including a Ballista) and my T2 Bridge is looking quite sad. I land a Chalice on 2 (for Grudge protection) and start digging with Sarkhan. I find an Anger to which they scoop. Probably would have eventually gone to zero cards anyway, but the Ballista was scary.
Match 3 U/W Control
Game 1: T1 Chalice on 1. After opponent's T1 I realize what they're on, play Bridge T2 anyway. Avaricious gets bounced, Hazoret countered and Chalice bounced as well. Game is not looking good. I reset the graves with a Scavenging Grounds and play an Attack Monkey and a Rabblemaster topdecked. Both resolve and proceed to meet an untimely end to a Terminus. Too bad I continue topdecking and play a Chandra to which they apparently do not have an answer - interesting? Chandra reveals a Chalice which I immediately play on 1. Opp's Colonnade is also doing jack and crap because of my early Bridge. Next spells get countered (Dragon and Sarkhan) but as Chandra gets to 7 loyalty opponent decides they've had enough and scoop.
Game 2: Opponent leads off with a Basic Island. I play a T1 Moon anyway given the chance to take them off double blue and/or white. They get another Island and suspend a Vision. Too bad I have another ritual to power out a T2 Rabblemaster. Uh, and a T3 Rabblemaster. Yeah...and they concede.
Match 4 Vengevine (uhh wait what is this again?)
Game 1: T2 Chandra followed up by a Bridge. Chandra dies to a couple of speedy 1/1s, and I'm running out of time to empty my hand. I do get a Rabblemaster to start on blocking duty, followed up by a Sarkhan. Sarkhan's digging into another Rabblemaster and my hand gets finally emptied. Sarkhan's digging...and digging...and digging...and ultimating...and digging into an Avaricious...and digging, holy hell? Eventually I reach the critical mass of Goblin tokens and just attack with them. And that's game.
Game 2: Play a T2 Moon through a Gemstone but they have a Ratchet Bomb! I can't play a Bridge so I just play a Moon. Maybe I should have played that single Bridge anyway (I had a Chalice in hand as well) since they manage to get me low enough to finish me with a Bolt. Desperate times call for desperate measures...
Game 3: T1 Cage, T3 Chandra (dies to a Vengie and a Bolt), play another and just flame slash the Vengie (because Cage). A Reckless Bushwacker comes screaming through the gates anyway and kills Chandra #2. They play a Ratchet Bomb but I do have an Anger in hand. After another creature and a Vengie, I play my third Chandra and Anger the board. I also have a Chalice on 2 at this point so they can't play another Bomb. Maybe they are not even playing Grudges? Draw two Bridges, play one and start waiting and ticking up. A Pia & Her Friend lands and opponent decides to uptick all the way to 4. OK, I finish them with a Thopter them being at 2 life at this point.
Match 5 Scapeshift
Game 1: Lots of stuff happening. Chalice on 1, Avaricious Dragon, Sarkhan & The Digs - all get answered since they have Sages and Bolts maindeck. I just can't seem to answer that and a Bloodbraid and just die to them.
Game 2: Chalice on 1, followed up by a Rabble. Chalice dies, so does the Rabble. Not good! Get Sarkhan out, dig - yes! A Moon! Thank you Sarkhan for being my friend. They don't have green mana anymore and can't do anything. Sarkhan ultimates, a Chandra gets found, along a Spellskite and a Witchbane Orb...ok ok.
Game 3: T2 Sarkhan, gets killed. Chalice on zero. Blood Moon. Prime Time. Hazoret for blocking (uhh - ok I guess...). Play a Chandra and totally punt - they decide to go face and I have another one. But I STILL DON'T DOUBLE FLAME SLASH PRIME TIME!! I'm an idiot...I go down to 3 at which point I finally realize that. So, Prime Time dies.
Let me explain the rest of the game since this is where it gets interesting. So, me at 3 life, opponent at 17. They have an Elder and 2 Damping Spheres out (??? - I guess it works against Rituals??). I have 2 Moon, Chandra at 1 loyalty and a Hazoret. Even a topdecked Bolt kills me so I have to play to my outs.
Me: Uptick Chandra, 2 dmg. Attack with Hazoret. They block. OK.
Opp: Play Prime Time. EOT use Haz.
Me: Draw Ruins. Uptick Chandra, 2 dmg. Think. Pass. Opp at 11 life.
Opp: Thinks. Gets in with Prime Time, block with Haz, go to 1. Play Scapeshift (ok?). EOT use Haz.
Me: Draw Rabble. Uptcik Chandra, 2 dmg. Attack with Haz, use Haz, GG.
I wonder why they played like that. If they had decided not to attack, they would've gotten 2 extra draws to draw into a Bolt - assuming I didn't draw into anything useful with Chandra either. I'd say it was a misplay - but maybe there is something I'm not seeing...
Aaaanyway. About the deck and the cards. I must say I didn't really miss the Eidolons or the Scabbies at all. I know - my wins against UW were quite lucky, but hey, that's what you need right? The issues with those is that they don't actually win you the game against Control. They are great with Combo (and Burn) but Control...uhh not really. A Moon and a Rabble is where it's at. Protected by a Chalice, that is. It's a bit of a tall order, but what can you do. I'd rather Moon them and wait for a threat - any will do! Even a Monkey will do the job. So - I do understand the rationale behind leaving them behind altogether, to clear up space for additional SB cards. I like this - a lot.
Shinka is spicy. It's an extremely corner case a card (only Piran?? Haz is useless in 99% of scenarios) but whatever. The deck isn't running Koth so who cares. Normally I also don't like 21 lands (I strongly believe you need more) but here 11 Rituals and 3 Sarkhans accompanied by 2 Avaricious do wonders. This will enable a powered-out lockpiece almost always - and Sarkhan and The Pet will take care of digging into more. This is a completely new angle in PP - one that's been missing a long time. Love it.
The rest of the deck is quite straightforward - freeing up SB slots enables more answers. Toolbox is a very good approach I think. It leaves a lot of room to have an answer to pretty much anything. Obviously I didn't need even half of that stuff in my matches - but that's fine! I didn't feel I was lacking anything either.
What I'd change - hmm, too early to say. I might go ahead and switch 1 Piran with a Bringer of Glory - but IDK. The list is pretty solid as it is. Maaaaybe I would dedicate a slot or two for Control...a Ricochet Trap or a Boil? Ray mentioned that he took out the Chainwhirler for a 4th Anger - a sound strat. I do like having a blocker against Mardu - but is an Anger better? Maybe. Ratchet Bomb is kinda sticking out like a sore thumb as well - never really found much use for it. But I do see that sometimes there is one.
Anyway, those are my thoughts for now! I'm gonna keep running this list maybe with these small alterations. If all turns well I might take it to the Big Tables at GP Stockholm next month.
This is a card that I've been running on and off for the past three months or so. I kinda found it long time ago when browsing through all the nonbasics available. I used to include it in my version of the deck since I have a big dislike over Mutavault. So I have preeeetty extensive testing covered here. Guess it just never occurred to me to mention it here, heh.
Aanyway...I never used it in SB. So Stickballruss might be onto something here - I've only included it MD.
The card. Well. Let's put it this way - when it works, it's awesome. When it doesn't work, it doesn't do anything. The first thing to keep in mind is that nothing, absolutely nothing comes without some assumed cost. If you want to run this card, it requires one of the following:
a) Put it in the maindeck. This affects your out-of-the-box manabase in ways that you might not consider. That OOTB manabase seems to be 17 Mountain, 3 Gemstone Caverns and 1 Mutavault. I'd say you cannot just switch 2 Mountains with 2 Academies. No way - you risk yourself getting color screwed. My suggestion: go 22 lands, with 17 Mountains, 3 Gemstone Caverns and 2 Academies.
b) Put it in the sideboard. No manabase effect, swap them with Caverns. Can use 2-3.
So what do you do? Well here's the thing. This card, is ONLY good against very, very certain matchups - namely those that like Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize. Now this is exactly what I meant above when I said it's very good sometimes. But what needs to happen so that the card is actually DOES something?
a) Have the opponent play discard. Matchups: Jund, Abzan, 8-Rack.
b) Have the card in play BEFORE the discard hits. Let's be honest here - this means be on play AND have the card in your opening 7.
So if you combine this criteria, it's pretty pretty narrow, yeah? Yup. I'd say the possibility of this cards usability is:
The metagame share of decks using discard x the possibility of being on play x having the card in the starting hand
Let's say the metagame share is 50% which is TOTALLY not the case. But bear with me. Possibility of being on the play is 50% on game 1 and the probability of having it in your 7 is based on the amount of this card you have in your deck.
So in this laughable scenario of having the half of every deck using discard, the total possibility of this card DOING ANYTHING is:
I know what you are thinking: come on, even if you're on the draw, your opponent might have multiple discard spells and hey, the second one he plays has no effect! OK, I'll entertain this idea for a moment. So the metagame share is still the same 50%. Let's rule out the usefulness of being on the play totally. This covers the scenario where we sideboard this card and thus - are ALWAYS on the play. And the draw we draw 8 cards. So the math comes of as:
So even in the PERFECT scenario where over half of the metagame is hit by the card - the odds are very very low. What is the actual metagame share? I don't know, but it's definitely lower than this right? In any case - it's clear by now that the card is extremely narrow.
But the question is, does it matter? Now, here's where things get interesting. The card still produces mana but colorless. So running more than 2 introduces you the world of self hurt. But let's say running 2 is a "free roll". It's still two cards that replace other cards! So in MD - no Mutavault for you AND 22 lands (trust me). In SB - 2 slots, bye bye.
The Magical Christmasland scenario is the following:
T1 you: Nephalia Academy, pass.
T1 opp: Read the card, think for a long time, play Overgrown Tomb tapped, pass.
Sometimes your opponent doesn't even read it and tries to Thoughtseize a Moon and you get to laugh. But let's be honest here. All of this happens EXTEMELY rarely. It feels good I give it that! But that's just cutesy - and we're not cute, we're battle-scarred veterans born in the mountains!
So...considering all these factors - I'd say that no, the card is not worth it. If you want to just have fun, sure, play it. But if you want to be competitive - take it off. You're much better off using those two (or Hazoret forbid - more than that!) slots elsewhere.
Ah, the jedi Mind Trick for the 5th win.....LOVE it!! Revenged, your tournament report, especially that last game, is emblematic of how I've done so well with this deck. It's all about sequencing. Yes, you punted by playing Pia and Kiran vs the UW deck, but you were able to still win that match. I like a few things in your post which others can learn from if they want to get good with this deck.
#1. Sequencing Matters. Go re-read that last match vs dredge...Its plays like that which is why I've had so much success. Revenged correctly identified that he had to play dead and lure his opponent into his trap, and it worked perfectly.
#2. the Comback....see the match he punted vs. UW control. The lock is great, but fragile. alomst all decks can break out when given enough time. Our lock pieces are just speed bumps that the opponent has to deal with before they can enact their plan. If you don't have a proactive strategy to back up those lock pieces, you'll just lose. we've all had games where we get moon, bridge and chalice, then draw 18 lands and just lose. See the first game....noble hierach went the distance after 13 turns.....literally....13 turns. amazing.
#. If you pick cards for your sideboard, you better know EXACTLY whty they are there and what they are for. Revenged could have just picked up my list or Ray's list, but he opted for his own board instead, and it worked. He knows what those cards are and when to bring them in. He even gives rationale why he plays that silly artifact over trading post. Feels like he tried trading post and that extra mana cost him a game or two.
Revenged....well written tournament report. You touch on a lot of things there and I'm piggybacking off it because I don't want people to miss some of the nuances in your last post.
Russ
Thank you so much. Especially coming from our uncrowned king of Pyro Prison! I'm starting to finally feel confident enough to start jamming Competitive Leagues. Very rarely I go less than 3-2 so the payoff is much bigger. Maybe.
A couple of comments:
#1: Oh, yeah. The most important lesson here is to identify your outs. Like really, think what is the best way for you to win? The game keeps evolving so you need to re-think it every turn. Here, after the Jet Scry, I saw that the only way to win was to 1) either go bottom-bottom and hope for a Bridge AND that the opponent doesn't have another Grudge or 2) take the Hazoret and lure him into attacking and haste-kill him right after. The choice was a no-brainer here, yeah?
#2: Uh, that punt was so bad. What could possibly go wrong, right? Well, here's the thing and the lesson #2. Think back on my previous statement. You need to identify your outs, right? Well, it's so much easier to do when losing, as was the case in the Dredge game. It's a psychological thing...the classic limited resources scenario. Here? I'm winning so I go waaaay over my head and...I STOP THINKING! Never, ever do that. Always keep focusing on the playline, and what are your outs. Even when you have the advantage, try to think like...you didn't. What are the opponent's outs? What is he trying to lure YOU into? (As for the Noble Hierarch scenario, there was nothing I could do, so, uh, yeah.)
#3: Yuuup. I guess the lesson #3 is to...uh, think? Which kinda underlines my previous points as well. I mean, it's so easy to just randomly pick cards for "feelgoods" but try to figure out if it's actually a good choice? Or are you picking it just because you like it? That's not a "wrong" rationale per se, but at least be honest about it. Yeah? The thing about copying someone else's list is that...well it's totally fine. They have sort of, already thought about it for you. Yeah? Russ's list & Raystack's list - don't get me wrong. I ALWAYS try out everything. I've ran both of your lists many times on MTGO leagues! Why you ask? Because I want to try & see different takes. I think you should always at least try it...before writing it off.
So, what have I learned from your versions of the deck so far? Well, for example:
- Goblin Charbelcher is a real, and frightening kill condition. (FluffyWolf)
- Molten Rain truly helps as a 2-of. Turns out the 2 damage included is relevant as well. (FluffyWolf)
- Fight fire with fire - bring your own Eidolons in against Burn and watch their jaw drop. (Fluffywolf)
- Tormenting Voice is strictly better than anything else we have as card draw/filter. (Raystack)
- Witchbane Orb is game over against many, many decks. (Raystack)
- Keeping Bridges in against Control is the correct move. (Raystack)
- Walking Ballista is awesome against Affinity, which otherwise can be problematic. (Stickballruss)
- Sorcerous Spyglass is a necessity. (Stickballruss)
- Four pieces of point removal is the correct amount. (Stickballruss)
So overall I've come to the following conclusions at this point:
- Don't settle on having just 21 lands if your curve is high. Go next level. Play 22. You know you want to.
- You don't need extra protection against control (Boil/Trap).
- Dedicate 1 (one) slot in the SB for Burn. The card needs to be a must-answer and have at least some usage with other decks, though.
- Having 4 Gemstone Caverns is like being on the play, even when on the draw. The upside of maximizing your chances far, far outweighs the downside of drawing onto multiples as you can still use them.
- 9 rituals is the correct amount.
- You want to have MD sweepers.
- You NEED Rabblemasters MD.
- Magma Jet is a necessity. It's a kill spell, it's reach, it's filter, it's good lategame, it's good early game...I want 4 but I don't think I can fit that many in!
Maybe tomorrow I'll change my mind? Hmm? I'm gonna need some hard evidence for that at this point, though...
I studied the Revenged's deck with the Russ'deck and I like the Magma jet more than Ballista,(in pyro prison),Ballista never is more than two counters and Magma jet give two damage creature or player and scry.I think Ballista is for Eldrazi Tron and Gx Tron decks. And without Ballista,can put Damping matrix for artifacts and creatures habilitys decks.
What do you thing about Magma jet vs Ballista??
I think for mtgo, that's a fine trade.in real magic, especially at large events, ballista is better. Ballista is better call humans and counters company, two decision that are very prevalent. Not to mention affinity. Ballista is WAY better vs affinity, which is also very common in tral like events.
Had I remembered a spellskite trigger, ballista would have won me into top 4 all by itself. I wouldn't have needed to play another spell, thats how powerful.ballista is
Right. So I play 99% only on MTGO, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I don't have a LGS so I only get to play "paper" like, once every month or two when I'm work trips. That said...I'm going to have to disagree here, still. Sorry Russ. Humans is already a very good matchup, so the difference is minimal. Counters Company - sure, Ballista is better - but if you have Damping Matrix it fulfills the same role. There are decks against which Ballista is strictly better, but overall Jet gets the 1st place on (my personal) podium.
Actually, let's compare them.
Walking Ballista
+ Is colorless.
+ Can be re-used.
+ Is a threat in itself.
+ Goes under Thalia and Negate.
- As a kill spell, costs 4 mana for 2 damage.
- As a kill spell, is a sorcery.
- Does not filter/fix draws/starting hands.
Magma Jet
+ Is an instant.
+ Costs 2 for 2 damage.
+ Fixes and filters draws/starting hands.
- Is red.
- Cannot be reused.
- Is not a threat (but short reach).
- Is affected by Thalia and Negate.
So. Strictly comparing these, Ballista is better card-for-card. But look. What is not being said here, is the fact that Jet is miles better earlygame than Ballista. And that's what matters, IMHO. Games are decided on the first 3-4 turns - usually. Look, I get the idea - you play the Ballista and keep growing it. That's the dream, and sometimes it's reality, I'm not saying that. But very often, you just don't have time for that. They play a Guide and you HAVE to have something NOW. Or a Electromancer. Against Hierarch or a Bird they both work - but wouldn't you rather have a Scry for 2 on top of that? Opponent lost their creature and YOU get to advance your gameplan. With Ballista, it's just a 1-for-1.
But! If you just don't *care* for that and are willing to take your chances, believe that you will draw OK anyway - by all means go with the Ballista! I, on the other hand, value consistency and early game more. So - think about our arguments and see which one makes more sense to you. I think we both are correct! Or go wild and use both...
I definitely think it addresses one of our biggest weaknesses. Even though there's less Goyf around than before, Tasigur and Gurmag are popping up more often outside of Death's Shadow, and Reveler is an actual thing now, compared to just a few months ago. If we can proactively hate the yard, we can lean less on Bridge and fear K. Command a little bit less, which sounds great to me.
OK one more comment here on extra graveyard hate. Having Relics/Crypts in SB helps against Pyromancer decks, but uhh...isn't that like a knee-jerk reaction? I mean, a decision such as that is being done on something else's expense. If you dedicate a card against a specific deck, it needs to be a must-answer-or-lose card. I don't think emptying GYs warrants that. They will just play other creatures and kill your Bridge anyway. Sure - it can be used against Delve creatures...but aren't we already pretty well placed against them with the Bridges, yeah?
I'd rather just accept that matchup (Mardu Pyromancer) being a very difficult one. If we *really* want to combat it, I think having extra protection for our Bridges is what we want. Well, which is what I'm kinda going after with my Metamorph...
So, not much has been changed since then. (Edit: 1 Koth for 1 Pia, actually.) I swapped the 2 Ricochet Traps for a Sorcerous Spyglass and a Phyrexian Metamorph. Spyglass is just generally good against everything and Metamorph acts for two roles: aggro and protection. It's another Goblin Rabblemasterwhen need be and another Ensnaring Bridge when you need to turn the lock a little tighter still. It can also copy opponents stuff which is just a plus...a memorable play was when opponent played a Spyglass, named my Koth and landed a Lilly. So I proceeded to cast the Metamorph, copied the Spyglass and named, well, Lilly. A little taste of his own medicine, eh?
Oh and remember what I said about usability of SB cards? The wider they are, the better they go? So - Metamorph. Get it?
22 lands still feels better than 21. I guess the difference ain't that big - ~3% of drawing at least 2 lands in the opening hand - but. The way I see it: if you run too few lands, you don't get to complain when you get manascrewed. If your curve lands lower than usual, with less 4-drops and maybe those maindeck Eidolons? Then it's fine, but otherwise, running 21 is just uh...playing with fire. In the bad way. Very, very often you get stuck with 2 lands and your only threat/lockpiece gone. Running 22 lands does by no means guarantee no manascrews, but hey, at least you know that now it's just variance. Heck, I might go to 23 but I guess that's overboard.
Scab-Clan Berserker is. So. Good. Sure - against Storm it's not as good as an Eidolon (might be slower) - but very, very close. The biggest difference is that whereas opponent might be able to play around Eidolon, there's absolutely no way he can do that against a Berserker. Haste ability also makes for nasty surprises. 3/3 body blocks pretty much everything you want it to block - including Thalia, Guide, Snappys and so on. Come on, try it at least! I mean, both work fine, but don't write this girlie off! Oh did I mention it only hurts the opponent, too.
Skullmead Cauldron is a fine, fine card! It synergizes excellently with Bridge and is a nightmare for Burn. Trading Post might work too, but the difference between casting this and using it immediately and having to spend 1 more mana - is huge. Against slower decks, this acts...kiiiiinda like another Bridge so that it gives you more turns to find a real one. I would never play more than 1 of this Slimy Pot but it, honestly, ain't bad, like at all!
Oh, right, the matches...
Round 1, GW Knightfall, win
G1: Land a Bridge and a Moon, but opponent starts beating my face in with a lone Hierarch. 13 turns later, I still have next to nothing else and die.
G2: Opponent mulls to 5. I play a Grafdigger's Cage, Blood Moon. Opponent has nothing and after a Koth he scoops it up.
G3: Oh Gemstone Caverns, especially as a 4-of. Let me count the ways I love you? ...four. A second turn Koth into a third turn Chandra into Bridge makes life very difficult for our opponent. Try as he might there's no way he can fight a Koth emblem and the game ends pretty quickly.
Round 2, GW Goodstuff, win
G1: Not much to say here, Bridge/Moon/Chandra keeps our opponent from doing anything useful. At Chandra at 7 counters and a topdecked Koth at 5 he concedes.
G2: Keep a sketchy hand with two Rituals, Slagstorm and a Magma Jet. This is exactly what I mean about Jets: they can sculpt a so-so starting hand into something good. Maybe. Well that doesn't even need to happen due to a topdecked Chandra and a timely Monkey. Ritual-Ritual-Guide-Chandra-Slagstorm effectively resets the game. He plays creatures but my topdecked Bridge keeps them at bay. Spyglass shows up and names Qasali Pridemage. Opponent tries very hard to find a Hierarch and plays a Land Centaur, revealing a Chord of Calling on top. I topdeck a Grafdigger's Cage to which he scoops.
Round 3, UW Control, win
G1: Play a Bridge and a Moon and start playing the long game. After some time and a Koth emblem, the game ends.
G2: 1st turn Rabblemaster into a 2nd turn Spellskite. I go too greedy and play a Pia and Her Friend after which my board gets wiped by a Supreme Verdict. I cannot recover and lose. Note to self: don't overextend if you already have lethal on board.
G3: I have no acceleration but keep it anyway. Turns out he doesn't have other counters besides a Spell Snare. A Moon lands nicely and there's nothing he can do anymore. I play a Chalice into a Rabblemaster into a Rabblemaster, so...
Round 4, Sun and Moon, win
G1: The game threatens to go very long due to my slow start. I also kept a hand with a Moon which, suprise surprise, doesn't do anything here. Luckily I topdeck a Bridge (damn I'm good with that) in the very last moment. He has a Nahiri, the Harbinger, Elspeth, Sun's Champion and a Gideon Jura but they don't do much with a Bridge out. He clearly tries to draw out of it but doesn't get an answer and dies to my Hazoret and Chandra.
G2: Opponent leads with a Leyline of Sanctity but is unable to keep up with my growing army of Berserkers and Rabblemasters. Berserkers truly get to shine here due to their haste and damaging them when playing planeswalkers. Sidenote: this matchup leaves so many dead cards that I have a hard time filling all the slots. But it's okay.
Round 5, Dredge, win
G1: I have a Bridge and a Chandra. Ever noticed that this combo is pretty good?
G2: So. I play a Cage and a Pia and a Monkey, start aggroing him. He Grudges my Cage and starts filling up the board. I desperate attack him to 7 and lose a thopter. He wipes my board with a Conflagrate and pukes his grave into play. I have two Jets in hand and EOT Jet him to 5. See a Spellskite and a Hazoret. Think - leave Haz on top. Draw, just pass. He takes my bait and goes all in, leaving me at 1. EOT, another Jet. See Bridge, put to bottom anyway. I play Haz and kill. Sweeeeeeet.
The writings of Fluffywolf, Revenged, and Rtdeely have been some next level shart. Fluff's #1085 post on his tourney report was encyclopedic - props. It's certainly clear, with wit as an added bonus, that our newest mountainfolk, Revenged, has a firm grasp of Pyro Prison. And, although, you and Rtdeely were in seeming disagreement on the specificity of impact when it comes to sideboard card options, you were actually agreeing with each other - just with different words.
@Revenged, particularly insightful was your comparison of Tormenting Voice and Magama Jet as routes to the same destination and how it's our goal to one day eliminate their 'air' from our builds: To go with neither and have a 'consistent/explosive' build.
Consistency vs. Explosiveness. Can we have both? If not, which is better? I'm a Koth-Moth to the flame when it comes to 'high rewards risk'.
In fact, there are a lotta Outlier cards getting tossed about lately. Stormbreath Dragon?? Tournament leagues with Pyro cannon belches, and your pet card, Revenged: scab-clan berserker. Better than Eidolon of the Great Revel, you say? Hmmmm....more testing!
Thank you for your kind words, mister! True - I never disagreed with anything he said...same opinions, different output is all...
The Air Elimination Question has me thinking. Yes - how do we do that? Because let's be honest - we'd just rather play useful stuff, those that affect the game, hmm? Voicing, Jetting, Gambiting through the game...meanwhile our opponent is sitting on the other side of the table, going...okay, sure...anything else??? Landing Moons and Rabble-Ripping hearts out of their chest, is what we do best. That's our game plan. I would even say that filtering and cantripping is bad in general. It does earn a spot in certain decks (Combo or slow Control) but here? Ugh. Everytime I have a Voice in my hand I'm like, ok, but where's the Ritual?
That is pretty much the reason I'm running Jets. They are kinda like air, I'll give them that. But they actually, like actually, also do, you know...stuff? 2 dmg kills people. OK, OK - I understand the "value" being really really low...2 damage, that's lame. But it's still *more* than *nothing* with, say, Voices, yeah? You get my jam here? What I'm trying to say?
The big question is though this. Are-there-better-cards-than-this. What we need, are Mulldrifters. Cards that filter/draw AND advance our gameplan - in a meaningful way. Chandra is the prime example of this. But surely there must be more?? Right? Right?? Leaving the filtering/drawing TOTALLY out doesn't sound like a good idea. We need something, that is my strong, strong view. Otherwise we are just playing Slot Machines every time we draw our opening 7 and if it doesn't work...well then we just die. Not fun dying.
That's all I have for now. Oh, sorry about my style of writing, I'm always talking/writing from the top of my head...I guess it can be annoying to some people. Also English is not my mother tongue...well anyway I hope my babbling is at least somewhat comprehensible to you guys.
Yes, indeed, I remember you and glad you gave Goblin Charbelcher a shot! Many people will not give him a try, even if at the end of the day your conclusion is too much jank vs winning. What I think is of note is that big grin you surely had when you did 18 Damage!. The other thing is that you did not appear to give it a chance with more the removing creatures. It certainly does nothing when it comes down sometimes, what I like most is G1, there is little to remove it, and it survives better than Koth, In my opinion.
I'm very much in agreement with you on Ballista, however, I have found in the Jeskai Control/Tempo or UR Control decks you can actually utilize Ballista to get around your chalices that may be dotted all over the place with counters. The other thing I've noticed Balista does well, is actually coming down on T2, and if you're against Ux Control, the little Engine that Could actually can just simply get there, especially on G2/G3, as removal is usually one of the first things taken out "If they see no creatures." Remember, your sideboard is essentially planned, but there is a nuance to it that is defined by what your opponent sees. Free Win Red is a very well known deck, we are not, play to this advantage.
3-2 Certainly is not bad on your first go! May you have more Belches in your future!
Latest list has a Stormbreath Dragon in for 1 of the 4 Goblin Rabblemaster. And now if this is the first time you're reading this you're head is going sideways, and starting to wonder "Is Fluffy... just insane?"
.... Maybe?
Charbelcher - oh no, don't get me wrong. I truly, truly understand and see its potential. I think you are definitely onto something here, it fits the plan pretty much perfectly! But the keyword I think here is exactly that, "potential". It is very much possible to instakill your opponent (as I did!) but...it might just do 2 dmg (that's fine) or 0 (scry 1). Yes - I didn't have the chance to try it as removal due to matchup lottery. The league was a weird one, I'll give it that. 2 Shifts, 2 Burns (well basically...) and a U-Tron? What the... Ok but. How can you rely on it being removal when you don't know the output? Hmm? Two is kinda a given - but let's say you're looking at a, say, 4/3 Tracker. Do you go for it? Or a 4/4 TKS or a 5/5 Fishie-Fishie? You deal 3 dmg and go like, oh well that was a waste. All I'm saying - it might be very, VERY useful as a kill condition but maaaaybe not so much as removal...?
Oh and btw - "big grin" is an understatement here. I almost fell off my chair laughing when that happened. I was like HAHAHA WHAT THE EF ...oh man...
Ballista - hold on, thinking. So you're telling me against Control (UWx) it's actually...useful? I always thought that it's waaaaay too slow. But...you are kinda correct that as a 2-drop, it *can* slip through the early countermagic especially when going 1st. Not sure how relevant the Chalice resistance is, though. I mean - if you already have a Chalice on 1 and a Chalice on 2 - isn't the game already pretty much decided, hmm? Against most decks that a Ballista would be useful against, that is. But, but, but. I like big buts and I cannot lie Even if it's slow, there definitely is something behind it. Maybe I'm just bringing it against all the wrong decks?? Wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong haha.
3 Rabblemasters. That's how I roll, too, with 1 additional on the side.
Stormbreath, though...hmm. The card is great, don't get me wrong...in Skred. Skred has soooo many pieces of removal AND their threats are extremely frightening AND removal-resistant - can close out the game by themselves. That's pretty much Skred's philosophy. But in Pyro Prison...? Hmm. It *is* an extremely good card against white, so much is true. But the strength of the card lies in the clearing of the way before that. Against GW Goodstuff - you remove the early junk and then land an SB, smile. Against UWx Control - you exhaust the oppponent with all the threats in the world and once they are out of counters - drop the Rock Hugging Cutie and say "deal with this". Of course, they still might have a Verdict or an Alliance. Which is like, meh, well that happens.
But unlike Skred Red - Pyro Prison is unable to do this. We have so much "fluff" and "air" inside our decks that it is *us* who're going to run out of cards to answer. It is just a fun-of and its function is 100% Finisher. It doesn't do anything early game and having to leave her for blocking duty (prot-white), always makes me a sad panda. Oh and she enters hibernation when Under the Bridge. Sorry...I just don't see it.
Oh yeah. Almost forgot. @FluffyWolf: don't know if you remember me from watching your stream, but... I've been really intrigued by your Charbelcher affection and wanted to give it a go. So I took your list card-by-card and gave it a spin on a league. It's from a stream you had the other night...not sure if that's the most recent one but anyway. Thought you'd like a short recap?
Went 3-2.
Round 1, RG Zoo, lose
G1: Opponent mulligans to 4. But I'm really drawing anything, and he comes off surprisingly strong with a 1-drop, followed by another, then another. I get a bridge out but fail to empty my hand.
G2: I remove and remove the creatures but they just keep coming. Oh and Chalice kept hidden for both of the games. Oh well.
Round 2, RGU Scapeshift, win
G1: Moon him early and Rain a land. Double Rabbles eat bolts and Suns. Too bad I had a Belcher. Oh how much you ask? Well check the attachment.
G2: Opponent gets a Leyline, poor thing was probably scared of another Belcher? Well a couple of Eidolons and Hazorets later the game is set.
Round 3, RG Scapeshift, win
G1: Play an early Rabble and ride it to victory. 'nuff said.
G2: Opponent almost gets me with a Valakut. I'm at 5 life for like 3-4 turns with 2 'Kuts out. But he does not get another Mountain, maybe because of Scaping already? Maybe he was almost out. Finally I topdeck a Moon and run away with the game.
Round 4, Mono U Tron, loss
G1: Ohmigosh. NOT this matchup, I think...while desperately trying to scrape for answers. I have a Chandra and try to play a Rabble, but they get obliterated by said Stone. Well he gets the required million mana and starts recycling the Mindslaver. I throw in the towel at this point.
G2: T1 Rabble, T3 another Rabble and boom shakalaka. Well it CAN happen.
G3: I get to Moon him but nothing helps. He just keeps playing lands and countering and bouncing my stuff. Eventually a Ballista and a Batterskull lands and I decide to hand over the game to him.
Round 5, Burn, win
G1: So funny. I start the game thinking "well...last game...probably Burn or something as always..." Opponent leads off with a T1 Guide. I'm like WTF? I'm a psychic Well anyhow...Chalice on 1, then 2 and a Hazoret kinda seals the deal.
G2: I get a Chalice-1 out but he keeps smashing my face with the two Guides that slipped by. Eventually he Charms me and, well.
G3: This was a tough-as-nails match:
T1 me land
T1 opp land, Guide, get in
T2 me land, Chalice on 1
T2 opp land, get in with Guide, Eidolon
T3 me land, Moon
T4 opp get in with Guide and Eidolon, another Eidolon, suspend Bolt
T5 me land (double Caverns so other dies), Ballista on 2
T5 opp plays Bolt from suspend on me, gets in with 2 Eidolon, Guide. Block Eidolon, shoot the other
T6 me at 5 life. Have 2 Chalices and 2 Eidolons in hand. Play Eidolon
T6 opp thinks for a very long time, eventually just passes
T7 me pass
T7 opp land, pass
T8 me land, Chalice on 2 (drew Rabble)
T8 opp get in with Guide, Eidolon. Block Eidolon
T9 me draw Chandra, go like can do, play, flameslash Guide
T9 opp So at this point I'm at 1 life. I'm like, Rift Bolt I die, pass I win. Pass.
T10 me ramp Chandra, get to 6 mana, Chalice on 3. Opp scoops it up.
Wheeeew! Preetty close. But hey, I'm always happy with a 3-2. Lost 1 ticket for the playset of Belchers so only 1,5 ticket profit...grr...
Observations and thoughts: Zoo felt almost like stealing the game from me. But that's variance it happens. U-Tron on the other hand...that is just unwinnable a matchup. I mean, come on. The only, and I mean only line is to just full-on aggro and even then it's not a given. My G2 luckout was pretty much the only shot we have against this nightmare. Weelll...thankfully it's not a very common one.
Shifts, escpecially two in a row, were free wins. That MU is like, soo lopsided it's not even funny. How is it possible that two decks that attack from the same angles have such different experiences - Pyro Prison and Skred Red? I used to play Skred for a year and a half and always dreaded that MU, but here...it's a joke. Well usually at least.
Burn...well it's usually this: get a Chalice on 1, play moon. Should be enough unless you can't deal with the slipping Eidolons and Skullcracks. Oh and be careful with playing a creature since they might Blaze it and you. Sometimes (not with this deck but in general) a good idea is to KothNimate THEIR mountain so that they cant Blaze. Hey, it works. Obviously my G3 later line was devastating and turned to soft prison into a hard one. I mean, what can they do with Double chalice, very little but they MIGHT have a chance, still...another on 3 is 100% unbeatable they have 0 outs left.
So the cards...well I can't spit over Belcher due to insane damage output I managed to squeeze out of it. Buutt...heheh It *is* a cutie category item, let's be honest here... It's fun and all, but seriously, I find it to be too janky and slow. It doesn't do anything when it hits the table and you have to dedicate 7 mana altogether to even get a 1 use out. The potential is there, but as you said yourself...the average is 4 or something. Also not all of our lands are mountains. So, yeah...maybe it's a little too slow, overall. Or maybe I was just in a full on direct-aggro-combo league this time??
Cards I did like: Molten Rain. I never really managed to hurt anyone real bad with it, due to their Basic resistance, but I definitely saw the light here. Hope it's not a train I kinda want to jam two in my MD as well. Just gotta find the room...hmm...don't want to lose anything hahah Okay but really, they seemed to be the thing we need...so, so agree with you...
Eidolon: sorry, I still prefer my newest find: Scab Clan Berserker. Does everything and more. Hurts you only with a low, low cost of 3 mana. Buy yours today!
Spree on SB: why no Matrix. No seriously isn't Matrix better in almost every scenario...?
Ballista: further and further moving away from him. He's either a 2 mana removal for a 1 drop (wee-aak) OR a 4 mana 2/2 with a 1ping potential. Even after spending your NEXT turn also, he grows to be a 3/3 (whoop-de-doo) and can ping for 1 or 2. So for a EIGHT mana investment over two turns, you get a 3/3 with a pinging potential of 1 or 2 or kill with 3. Sorry, everytime I bring him in I regret it. Maybe there is just something I don't get but EVERYTIME I find myself thinking "why oh why can't this be a JET"...
4 Sweepers: me likey. Sounds like a correct number.
@Revenged: Definitely like the idea of evaluating cards on a score basis, it's a pretty awesome idea. But I don't know how practical it is because there are SO many different factors and dimensions to why you'd want a particular card. Especially with a shifting meta. In your example for instance, you're going off of the strength of the card on a match up basis. But other factors might include things like converted mana costs, or meta differences between high level tournaments, local tournaments, FNM, and mtgo. If you're comparing an enchantment vs an artifact for instance, then you have to consider how much artifact and enchantment hate is in each of those types of metas (subtracting from the overall score).
There is one more subtle point that I think a lot of players don't think about. Their own skill level and their specific play styles. Two different pilots can pick separate lines of play. Neither of them are necessarily wrong, as you could pick the incorrect line and still win. But in general, the correct line, or card choice in a sb, is about what has the highest % of winning. Even though the higher % choice could actually end up with a loss where the more risky (lower % choice), would have won. (Maybe a good discussion for Goblin Rabblemaster (risky) vs Goblin Charbelcher (safe)).
As an example of playstyles/skill, some pilots of Pyro-Prison may feel quite confident against UW control. But others may have a little more difficulty with this matchup. If this is the case, one player might opt for 2 Boils, where many other pilots run 1 or 0. I for one run into Tron nonstop online, so while the community has recently dropped down on spyglasses and pushed 1-2 Dampening Matrix, I ended up keeping 2x spyglass and dropped something else for a matrix because that's what 'I' was running into frequently.
Thanks for your input. Agree. The idea of evaluating a SB slot based on an abstract number is exactly that - abstract. You absolutely need to evaluate the metagame - whether or not to include a particular card in your SB? Obviously if, say, Burn is running rampart - you adjust accordingly and dedicate extra slots for that.
But let's put it this way - I'm referring more to a, ah, unknown meta. One where it is kinda hard to know for sure - maybe a big GP and so on. Then you only have the metagame "approximation" as your tool...be it MTGGoldFish or whatever. Personally, I tend to go with that. MTGO meta pretty much *is* MTGGoldFish data - with a grain of salt of course. Even if I end up encountering a specific deck pretty often...it doesn't necessarily mean it's that much represented - in all actuality. That's just variance! Real data is real data and it doesn't lie, yeah? But...the data is from a specific "meta" (here: Competitive Leagues) and can you straight up apply it to another (Friendly Leagues)? I don't think so.
There is more to this however - you only bring in certain cards in certain matchups. So in my example - I think it's fair to say you would never, ever bring in a Skullmead Cauldron against ETron, right? So it's out. Same is true with the Boil example you brought...some players would never even consider that but some people might.
But. I think the usefulness of a SB card should be based on two factors - it's strength against the matchups it's "meant" for - and the other possible ones...so, width.
@Revenged: I just reviewed your deck again, and admire your synergetic creation. My initial impression of Skullmead Cauldron was to dismiss it 100%. It's never been discussed - it's from an old set Dissension - no way it can be good, right? . But, you dug deep to find the right application:
Sharp, dude. So, here's where I land. IF witchbane orb can not go wide effectively, i.e. it has little game against Scapeshift, Eldrazi Tron, Ad Nauseam, Gifts/Storm, then Cauldron is better than Orb. The 2nd part of this math equation: 'if A is greater than C, but B is greater than A, then....' is - Cauldron versus Dragon's Claw. I am with you. Cauldron seems better. So, all those times that I was reaching for the claw, I should have been considering the cauldron. I'm probably still seeing too much value from Witchbane to opt for Cauldron for now. But, a neat offer & a debate to revisit around Halloween.
Thank you @Raystack for the hearty welcome and comments.
Skullmead Cauldron, yup...so. I guess it is fair to say the card is better than Dragon's Claw for all intents and purposes, maybe? But is it better than Witchbane Orb? Against Burn? Absolutely. Against other decks? Hmm...perhaps we need to evaluate our sideboard slots with a different formula. How about this:
Sideboard card value = n1+n2+n3...
Where n stands for the card's approximate score against a given matchup on a (made-up) 1-10 scale. Consider the following example, using your match-ups:
Explaining in common terms: Cauldron is excellent against Burn, kinda bad against Shift, useless against Ad and kinda bad/kinda useless against ETron/Storm. Orb on the other hand, is decent against Burn, okayish against Shift, kinda bad against Ad and somewhat okay against ETron and Storm. Disclaimer: the scores themselves here are, obviously, my personal, quick&rough evaluations
Either way - in the above example we can clearly see Orb being of higher value a card than Cauldron. Therefore - Orb should take preference over Cauldron. Simple, yes? Hmm...not really no, since there is also the metagame factor which has its own weight effect. But maybe there is some logic to all this. Maybe the same idea could be applied to other SB cards, even MD ones...? Hmm hmm...
Another small thought: your pet card Tormenting Voice got me thinking. You prefer that, I prefer Magma Jet. Maybe the question is not which one to use, but whether or not to filter at all? Let's be honest here - the difference between running Jets + "more" removal and Voices + "less" removal is minimal. Both achieve the same goal: either getting rid of an early threat and filtering a little OR taking a hit early and digging deeper for a wider answer (Bridge/sweeper).
There are builds that run basically 0 filters/draws (besides Chandra). So which one is "better"? To value consistency over explosiveness or to trust the RNG to tilt things in our favour? I remember you Raystack saying: "explosiveness > consistency" or something along those lines. But isn't having Voices kinda contradicting this statement? Or maybe there is more to this and it's not such a simple matter...hmm?
I mostly play on MTGO, usually get at least a 3-2 with some occasional 4-1s thrown in the mix. Yesterday I had my third 5-0, too! My constructed rating is at 1820 something at the moment...not a big deal but pretty cool?
So about my card choices...
I like having 22 lands as opposed to 21. Also I find Mutavault lackluster as it oftentimes is just a Mountain. Caverns is sweet and quite important on the draw, so I'm running 4. Ritual count feels good at 9, still.
4 spot-removal and 1 sweeper. Keeps creatures at bay for just long enough. Jets are nice for filtering and removal so they serve two purposes. Hazoret is MD since it's almost always good and has that "gotcha" thing going on as well. I settled at 3/1 Rabblemasters in MD/SB. Feels like a good split as it is a dead draw against certain decks (mostly creature-based ones).
Berserkers on Eidolon slot in the SB, how about that? Still experimental but the upside is bringing them in against Burn. Eidolon hurts you, Berserker doesn't. They are quite similar, though...Berserker grows to 3/3 which is sometimes relevant (Snapcaster/Eidolon/Guide/Thalia etc). The downside of costing 3 instead of 2 is normally not an issue, interestingly enough.
I want to run 2 Torpor Orbs. It's so good.
2 Angers...kinda want a third one. But 2's okay for now.
Skullmead Cauldron?? Heh well...this is against Burn in Witchbane Orb's stead. Also experimental. My reasoning is that Orb might not do anything late game...they might break it or just run you through with creatures/Eidolons. Cauldron, on the other hand, takes you farther and farther away every turn it sees play. It's pretty good whenever you play it (as opposed to Dragon's Claw, for instance). The discard clause is hardly a problem either and might even help you (with Bridges and an Eidolon out). Still testing...
Ricochet Trap is better than Boil IMHO. They are both used (usually) for one thing - forcing that certain spell in (Moon/Threat/whatever). Obviously Boil hurts them in the longer run...but then again, it might not if all they have are two Islands and rest are...I don't know, other lands. Trap costs only 1 mana and can be sided in against other decks too, in a pinch. But...I guess it all boils down to taste. Pun intended
3 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ramunap Ruins
1 Scavenger Grounds
13 Mountain
Rito Oscuro
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
Removal
2 Abrade
2 Slagstorm
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Threats
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Molten Rain
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Abrade
1 Shattering Spree
1 Torpor Orb
1 Damping Matrix
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Boil
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Umm...4-1.
Match 1 - Rock
G1: Chalice on 1 -> Moon -> Bridge. Koth -> Emblem -> Concession. Guess I saw a Goyf.
G2: Double discard on Rabble and Haz. Chandra. Bridge, Bridge, a Lilly from them at some point. Emblem and game.
Match 2 - Ad Nauseam
G1: Chalice on 1 followed up by Chandra. Opponent seems to be on the all 1 drops plan. They do land an Unlife, but have nothing besides an Attack Monkey to block my evergrowing army of Goblins.
G2: Opponent mulls to 4, suspending a Lotus and playing an Urborg. Play a land, Chal on 0. They don't have anything, so I proceed to play another land and power out a Molten Rain. Playing a Chandra on their empty board brings out another concession.
Match 3 - GWR Goodstuff or something uhh
G1: They Temple Garden into Rugged Praerie into Looting? I'm like uhh I don't get it. Play T2 Moon anyway. They do get a flashback out of their Looting but the Bolt to follow is the last spell they play. Chandra is too much and they give up.
G2: This is where Molten Rain truly shows its power. They get a Forest out but I moon. Chal on 1. Bloodbraid, Goyf...one Abraded, another one spawns...a Bridge stops it all. I topdeck the Molten Rain and destroy their only basic. That's it, especially after a Chandra and a Chal on 2.
Match 4 - UW Control
G1: T1 Moon does absolutely nothing given their Island and Plains to follow. It even eats a Sphere, but I have another one. Teferi, Koth...Koth goes back to the deck. Jace. I try to desperately land a Chandra, but after getting Negated I give up.
G2: Go go Little Chandra! T1 Chal on 1. T2 Little Chandra. T3 Attack, Moon, untap, ping, transform. Uptick. A Big Chandra. Uptick both. They do try to slow me down with a Clique but I keep the pressure on. Oh did you guys realize Little Chandra can also tag PWs???!!? They have no chance whatsoever.
G3: A reaaaally tough call on the starting hand. Rabble, Rabble, Moon, Simian, Gemstone, Mountain, Chalice. I decide to pitch the other Rabble, which might have cost me the game. I do draw a Mountain, and I'm facing an Island. I figure they might just play a Fetch, so I moon. Big mistake - they play a Plains. I mean, I could've just played a Rabble, but I thought, what if they have a Path? Like, I could just play a Chal on 1 the next turn and the Rabble after that. Well it doesn't unfortunately work that way this time around and they even counter my Chal. A topdecked Eidolon gets Leaked. They play a Stony Silence (what??? it's quite apparent people still don't understand our deck lol) and I play a Rabble. I figure this is my chance, but nope. They have a Sphere. We keep trading blows, Timely Reinforcements, Moon, nothing matters. Boil is countered. Teferi pretty much threatens to end the game but I keep drawing gas. This was pretty good btw: they have 2 Islands and a Plains so I Rain the Plains. A Chainwhirler kills their 2 Mages but they STILL draw into 2 more Plains, finally landing an Angel. That was quite frustrating because without the extra Plains, I would've just ran over them with my Rabble and Whirler. Oh well, it was reeaaaaally close. Could've gone the other way, like really.
Match 5 - Grixis DS
G1: Blah blah Chal on 1 blah blah Stubby D blah blah Bridge concede.
G2: This is another super close a match. They destroy my hand but I topdeck a ritual into a Hazoret. I ALMOST kill them but they have not one, not two, but THREE DSses AND a Zombie Fish. I mean, there's no chance I'm getting through all that and I just die facing three 10/10 DSses.
G3: Ahahaha. They do rip my Chal but I go Eidolon, Eidolon, Eidolon. Try even a Chandra in between. One gets blocked by a Snappie but comeon. They can't obviously keep up and can't play anything else, game over.
Thoughts. Molten Rain is still AWESOME. It's like, it always helps. It's GREAT against combo, setting them back by a whole turn. OR - you just 100% lock them down killing their one single basic. Especially with rituals it becomes a T2 LD. I'd want a third one but I can't fit it in. Also good against control, maybe not so much against aggro...but still the possibility of ruining their post-Moon life is golden.
Little Chandra's also great! It's basically a 3 CMC Chandra that can fight THEIR planeswalkers. I mean it's not exactly great against aggro but still if you can play 2 red spells in a single turn you do get to transform it. Or, if everything else fails it's at least a threat (albeit a very weak one).
Grafdigger's Cage was still not missed but to be fair not even needed with these matchups.
OK that's all I can think of this late. Have a good one.
But. Grafdigger's Cage. Let's give this one a bit more thought. It is a card - and it does things. Not saying that. But, to my mind, a SB slot is something that should, if not completely win you the match, at least tilt the game very strongly in your favour. Cage does neither. I'll explain.
CoCo decks are somewhat hurt by it, but it's still a very steep uphill climb. Let's say you play it immediately and they can't Collected Company/Chord of Calling. What happens, is that they will switch gears and start grinding value with Tireless Trackers and whatnot. If, and only if, you also have a Blood Moon AND they miss their basics AND they miss on their Birds/Hierarchs - you might have a chance. Cage by itself, does very little. I think the only way to win this fight is to go all in on threats, and pray.
Dredge - yes. It prevents GY shenanigans. But this MU is already good for us, so there's that. An additional hedge is not really needed, if we're already running Bridges and Angers. Speaking of which, at least one of either is still going to needed, since they can just hardcast their threats. Actually, I kinda group Dredge, Vengevine and Hollow One together. What's common among them is a Cage DOES slow them all down considerably by turning off their Plan A. All that being said, this/these matchup(s) is/are the one scenario where I kinda understand wanting a Cage. But is it enough to warrant an actual SB slot...uhh IDK.
Reanimator. OK - this is one matchup where the Cage really does shine. But still, it's nothing an Ensnaring Bridge and a Damping Matrix can't handle. It does fit the criteria of "be a silver bullet or bust", though. The thing is, this deck is quite rare to encounter nowadays - I can't even remember the last time I've seen it? Should we really be preparing for a random encounter? It's not like the slots in the SB are a dime a dozen, yes?
And the last one, Mardu Pyromancer. Hum. Faithless Looting and Lingering Souls are now un-flashbackable. And that's pretty much it. It's not like they can't still cast them, only the backside has a stop sign slapped on them. I don't think they care at all. This is also one game where you bring in all the threats and none of the fear. No guts, no glory.
So what's left? Storm, maybe...but I'd much rather have a Witchbane Orb since it helps a LOT with other decks as well. I suppose there are others but yeah. I'm sorry Cage. It's not really working out with us. I think it's time to let go. A, WHAT. That's uhh...wow. Bringing out the big guns, are you? No, don't get me wrong, that might be the road to take indeed. They can't even use their Welding Jars! OK - I'm gonna go out on a limb and try the following list, based on all the ideas getting throwed around here.
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Buried Ruin
18 Mountain
Rito Oscuro
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
Removal
2 Abrade
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Threats
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Sarkhan, Fireblood
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Molten Rain
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Shatterstorm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Torpor Orb
2 Damping Matrix
1 Boil
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Hazoret the Fervent
That being said...I did run my list back and what do you know - it was another 4-1, with the loss to - drum roll - Scales Affinity. And yes, it was the finals again.
But that Scaleffinity really bogs me down. Isn't there anything we can do? Maybe it's time to follow Russ' lead and bring the Shattering Sprees back.
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Buried Ruin
18 Mountain
Rito Oscuro
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
Removal
2 Abrade
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Threats
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Sarkhan, Fireblood
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Avaricious Dragon
4 Molten Rain
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Torpor Orb
2 Damping Matrix
1 Boil
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Hazoret the Fervent
There was one change, though...I removed the Faerie Macabres and put the 3 Eidolon of the Great Revels and 1 Grafdigger's Cage back. I think Russ was the one who said it - "do we even need GY hate?" I'm starting to think no. Even the Cage is kinda questionable - it's mostly being used as a hedge against CoCo and the likes. But even then it might be just too cute, 1 CMC is also a big problem. I don't know. Maybe the slot could be freed...hmm.
As for the results - I must say Molten Rain did it again! OK, this time backed with Eidolon. Maybe 4 Molten Rains is a bit excessive...2 might be the correct number. But given the huge popularity of both Tron and Basic Lands at the moment, it's not bad. MD Angers let me win against Mardu. Hazoret is also a definite keeper in the SB.
Buried Ruin is really nice. Having the opponent make you discard your Ensnaring Bridge and then just getting it back, while they can't do anything about it...well, even if that doesn't happen it's still a land. Can't go wrong with that, right? It helps with discards, is all I'm saying.
Not hugely sold on Avaricious Dragon. I mean, it's alright, but alright's not enough. Is it better thank PnK? Bah, I dunno. Just feels...bad.
I did ask this on Discord also, but how would you feel about Blood Knight in the SB? Could be alright against UW Control and anywhere you need a blocker. Just a thought. Might try it.
Games were against Humans, Elves, Soulflayer Jund, Tron and Scales Affinity (<- loss). Not gonna bother writing it all out - Humans is favourable. So is Elves. Soulflayer thingy was weird, but Moonable. Tron handed it over to me due to Molten Rains. And Affinity just ran me over with 3 Ballistas in the last game. Too bad.
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Buried Ruin
18 Mountain
Rito Oscuro
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
Removal
2 Abrade
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Threats
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Sarkhan, Fireblood
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Avaricious Dragon
4 Molten Rain
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Torpor Orb
2 Damping Matrix
1 Boil
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Notable differences: 22 lands. This is my jam. The extra one is Buried Ruin -> extra Bridge. Can't really run Deserts due to special liking to Koth. IMO the Deserts are quite a corner case usually. I've won a couple games due to the extra reach, still. Difference ain't huge, depends mostly on whether or not you run Koth. But again - going to 22 lands increases the chance of drawing at least 2 in your opening seven to 81%. Which is greater than 4/5 times -> 21 lands is 78% which is lower than 4/5 times. How many times you've looked at your one-lander, thinking ohhh why only 1...don't skimp on land boys&girls...
No Ballista. Never liked it. Sorry.
SB: No Eidolon/Scabbie either! What herecy is this! Molten Rains in their stead. Let's compare them:
Eidolon/Scabbie better:
Storm
Burn (but still mediocre)
Lantern (favourable MU anyway)
KCI (still not enough, Chalice on 1 and Matrix or bust)
Molten better:
Jund
Tron
UWx Control
To name just a few. So Molten Rains actually make hard matchups a tad better. In G2, it's quite a usual scenario where you Moon them, but they still manage to squeeze out 1 basic. Well, this takes care of the problem. Especially against Jund which is normally abysmal - but now you might just be able to lock them out of the game! In my match against Tron, the 2 Molten Rains forced them to stay behind while Rabblemaster ran over them. Had those cards been Eidolons, I would've lost.
Also - Eidolon is not really good against control, let's be honest here. They just Bolt/Path it and take 2. Always. Always...you need something else to supplement that. And that something is a Moon, but a Molten Rain will actually lock them down since they are going to have basics at that point anyway in G2/3. 2 Boils would be nice in the current meta, but even 1 is OK.
This is still up in the air obviously, but I might just be ditching the extra threats. Shrug.
Faerie Macabre idea was stolen from Fluffy. Thanks! But never got to use them. Maybe later.
That's pretty much it...I really liked this I must say. Gotta run it back a few times to see what's it all about.
- Why is the deck still not recognized - even though it's winning?
- Is Pyro Prison unique in the sense that it folds hard to the "matchup lottery"?
- Should you even be playing a deck that has "unwinnable" matchups?
I'm going to answer all of these three questions in one big go by turning this into a semi-article on playability of Pyro Prison. So bear with me...
The deck is flying under the radar because it's not being played by many. Cold fact. The "tierity" - if that is even an actual word - of a deck says absolutely nothing about it's power level. Null. Zilch. Zero. It's 100% about the popularity. Mono Green Tron is "Tier 1" because it's popular. Humans is "Tier 1" because it's popular. Affinity is "Tier 1" because, well, it's popular. The success rate will always be obfuscated by the small, minority crowd, that is winning. So, it looks like T1 decks are super powerful even though a lot of folks are actually struggling to win with them. This small detail is just often left out...for every T1 win out there, there are 10 losses that are never being recorded.
The lottery aspect of Pyro Prison is not unique - not by a long shot. Have you ever tried to win with Tron against Burn? With Burn against Storm? With Storm against UWx Control? Heck - with Humans against Pyro Prison? The common denominator is that it will be difficult - but not impossible. All you need is the opponent to draw badly and it can be done. So, no - Pyro Prison doesn't have any "unwinnable matchups" any more than any other deck out there, only favourable and unfavourable, with differing amounts.
The former two statements make the last question moot. Arguably, no, you shouldn't be playing a deck with unwinnable matchups - because there aren't any decks like that, yes? It's the illusion of disbelief, the strong impression that since you are losing a lot against a certain archetype, they, on the other hand, must always be winning right? Which is obviously nonsense, see my previous paragraph.
The first question still goes unanswered, though. Yes - it's not recognized because it ain't popular - but that's not really saying a lot. The question is more like: WHY is it not popular? The gut reaction would be that the deck is just plain "bad". It's bad because it's "totally luck based and requires zero skill". We've all heard this in one way or the other. But if this is true how come Stickballruss is having, to indirectly quote him, an 80% win rate? Why is Raystack, along with FluffyWolf, winning a league after a league - not to name the rest of the crew? Sure, they are losing, too, but they are still winning more than losing. Surely not all of these guys can just be experiencing a lucky streak? Or maybe they just manipulate the luck itself wherever they can...?
Or you could turn this around - it's too difficult a deck, therefore, it can't be popular. Caligula is telling us about a player who plays Pyro Prison sometimes but "it's really hard, and he doesn't want to put in the time it would take to play it well". But is Pyro Prison really a difficult deck to play? There is - at least on the surface - not a lot going on. You play a Blood Moon/Chalice of the Void/Ensnaring Bridge and that's it. If all goes well, you eventually will complement this "combo" with a threat and run away with the game. That doesn't sound too hard to execute, now does it?
...or that's at least what many people are going to tell you. A common misconception is that the deck is mostly based on luck. You either get a "Blood Moon out or you lose". Or something like that. But we all know better. There is a lot more going on behind the scenes than pure luck. Sure - the favours of the RNG Gods have their say - but such is the case with all MTG decks out there. Some decks just have more built-in resiliency than others. A midrangey approach will always outdraw an aggro deck. And control is going to wreck combo in the long game. This is quite straightforward and just a fact - a feature, even, of Magic: the Gathering.
The thing is, though - while you cannot directly control what you draw, be it the opening seven or just your next topdeck - you can control other factors. Any given deck operates on two axis: consistency and explosiveness. This groundwork was laid down already in the Stone Age of Pyro Prison, by none other than Raystack himself. He even argued that explosiveness is the bigger & badder of the two.
But both approaches do work. A control deck is built all-in on consistency and just about none in explosiveness. Combo decks are often the complete opposites: inconsistent but explosive. What this boils down to, is that for a deck to be competitive, it needs to achieve a certain amount "in total". To put this is other words - if a deck is neither consistent nor explosive, it's not going to work. Which is kind of obvious...
So where does that place us, and HOW exactly do you win, if it's not just luck?
Pyro Prison is most certainly an explosive deck. It's not a "fair" deck, but it IS an interactive one. You can't win by just ignoring your opponent. "Win" consistency doesn't come through a single match, but through repetition. Repetition gains you experience, which translates to knowledge. Knowledge about the field, what to expect. Knowledge about other decks, even other players! In essence, it's not about having the "correct line of play" or the "trump cards" - it's knowing your opponents equivalents.
Skill with this deck is almost 100% analogous with your understanding of the metagame. Knowing what the opponent is up to and what they are trying to achieve is THE most important aspect of being successful. I would even go as far as to say that the deck is actually quite straightforward to pilot, in a vacuum. Determining your correct play comes naturally after figuring out theirs. This might change in the course of the actual gameplay, but the basic premise won't. If you know what they are trying to do, you know how to counter it.
You want to be good with the deck? Learn the other decks, learn their game plans. Online articles provide a ton of information on how to play and understand them. Best would be to play with them all yourself: you'll be aware of their biggest fears when facing this deck. Maybe even ask a friend to help you walk through a reverse gauntlet of sorts: let them be the pilot while you try to win them. A lot of work, sure, but not in the traditional sense of "learning a deck".
And that's what it's all about with Pyro Prison - less about the deck itself and more about the others...
Match 1 U/W Control
Game 1: T2 Moon. Chalice on 2 gets countered but a Chandra pushes through. Opponent concedes.
Game 2: T2 Moon, T3 Rabblemaster. Opponent concedes. Also sends a couple of salty messages before quitting.
Match 2 Vengevine
Game 1: T1 Chalice on 1. Opponent concedes. Is this a pattern I'm starting to see?
Game 2: Was quite hard to sideboard. But I correctly place the opponent on some sort of aggro plan placed on the immediate concession to a Chalice. Rabblemasters out, Spellskite and uh, something in? I think I took Angers as well. Anyway, opponent is playing a couple of 1/1s (including a Ballista) and my T2 Bridge is looking quite sad. I land a Chalice on 2 (for Grudge protection) and start digging with Sarkhan. I find an Anger to which they scoop. Probably would have eventually gone to zero cards anyway, but the Ballista was scary.
Match 3 U/W Control
Game 1: T1 Chalice on 1. After opponent's T1 I realize what they're on, play Bridge T2 anyway. Avaricious gets bounced, Hazoret countered and Chalice bounced as well. Game is not looking good. I reset the graves with a Scavenging Grounds and play an Attack Monkey and a Rabblemaster topdecked. Both resolve and proceed to meet an untimely end to a Terminus. Too bad I continue topdecking and play a Chandra to which they apparently do not have an answer - interesting? Chandra reveals a Chalice which I immediately play on 1. Opp's Colonnade is also doing jack and crap because of my early Bridge. Next spells get countered (Dragon and Sarkhan) but as Chandra gets to 7 loyalty opponent decides they've had enough and scoop.
Game 2: Opponent leads off with a Basic Island. I play a T1 Moon anyway given the chance to take them off double blue and/or white. They get another Island and suspend a Vision. Too bad I have another ritual to power out a T2 Rabblemaster. Uh, and a T3 Rabblemaster. Yeah...and they concede.
Match 4 Vengevine (uhh wait what is this again?)
Game 1: T2 Chandra followed up by a Bridge. Chandra dies to a couple of speedy 1/1s, and I'm running out of time to empty my hand. I do get a Rabblemaster to start on blocking duty, followed up by a Sarkhan. Sarkhan's digging into another Rabblemaster and my hand gets finally emptied. Sarkhan's digging...and digging...and digging...and ultimating...and digging into an Avaricious...and digging, holy hell? Eventually I reach the critical mass of Goblin tokens and just attack with them. And that's game.
Game 2: Play a T2 Moon through a Gemstone but they have a Ratchet Bomb! I can't play a Bridge so I just play a Moon. Maybe I should have played that single Bridge anyway (I had a Chalice in hand as well) since they manage to get me low enough to finish me with a Bolt. Desperate times call for desperate measures...
Game 3: T1 Cage, T3 Chandra (dies to a Vengie and a Bolt), play another and just flame slash the Vengie (because Cage). A Reckless Bushwacker comes screaming through the gates anyway and kills Chandra #2. They play a Ratchet Bomb but I do have an Anger in hand. After another creature and a Vengie, I play my third Chandra and Anger the board. I also have a Chalice on 2 at this point so they can't play another Bomb. Maybe they are not even playing Grudges? Draw two Bridges, play one and start waiting and ticking up. A Pia & Her Friend lands and opponent decides to uptick all the way to 4. OK, I finish them with a Thopter them being at 2 life at this point.
Match 5 Scapeshift
Game 1: Lots of stuff happening. Chalice on 1, Avaricious Dragon, Sarkhan & The Digs - all get answered since they have Sages and Bolts maindeck. I just can't seem to answer that and a Bloodbraid and just die to them.
Game 2: Chalice on 1, followed up by a Rabble. Chalice dies, so does the Rabble. Not good! Get Sarkhan out, dig - yes! A Moon! Thank you Sarkhan for being my friend. They don't have green mana anymore and can't do anything. Sarkhan ultimates, a Chandra gets found, along a Spellskite and a Witchbane Orb...ok ok.
Game 3: T2 Sarkhan, gets killed. Chalice on zero. Blood Moon. Prime Time. Hazoret for blocking (uhh - ok I guess...). Play a Chandra and totally punt - they decide to go face and I have another one. But I STILL DON'T DOUBLE FLAME SLASH PRIME TIME!! I'm an idiot...I go down to 3 at which point I finally realize that. So, Prime Time dies.
Let me explain the rest of the game since this is where it gets interesting. So, me at 3 life, opponent at 17. They have an Elder and 2 Damping Spheres out (??? - I guess it works against Rituals??). I have 2 Moon, Chandra at 1 loyalty and a Hazoret. Even a topdecked Bolt kills me so I have to play to my outs.
Me: Uptick Chandra, 2 dmg. Attack with Hazoret. They block. OK.
Opp: Play Prime Time. EOT use Haz.
Me: Draw Ruins. Uptick Chandra, 2 dmg. Think. Pass. Opp at 11 life.
Opp: Thinks. Gets in with Prime Time, block with Haz, go to 1. Play Scapeshift (ok?). EOT use Haz.
Me: Draw Rabble. Uptcik Chandra, 2 dmg. Attack with Haz, use Haz, GG.
I wonder why they played like that. If they had decided not to attack, they would've gotten 2 extra draws to draw into a Bolt - assuming I didn't draw into anything useful with Chandra either. I'd say it was a misplay - but maybe there is something I'm not seeing...
Aaaanyway. About the deck and the cards. I must say I didn't really miss the Eidolons or the Scabbies at all. I know - my wins against UW were quite lucky, but hey, that's what you need right? The issues with those is that they don't actually win you the game against Control. They are great with Combo (and Burn) but Control...uhh not really. A Moon and a Rabble is where it's at. Protected by a Chalice, that is. It's a bit of a tall order, but what can you do. I'd rather Moon them and wait for a threat - any will do! Even a Monkey will do the job. So - I do understand the rationale behind leaving them behind altogether, to clear up space for additional SB cards. I like this - a lot.
Shinka is spicy. It's an extremely corner case a card (only Piran?? Haz is useless in 99% of scenarios) but whatever. The deck isn't running Koth so who cares. Normally I also don't like 21 lands (I strongly believe you need more) but here 11 Rituals and 3 Sarkhans accompanied by 2 Avaricious do wonders. This will enable a powered-out lockpiece almost always - and Sarkhan and The Pet will take care of digging into more. This is a completely new angle in PP - one that's been missing a long time. Love it.
The rest of the deck is quite straightforward - freeing up SB slots enables more answers. Toolbox is a very good approach I think. It leaves a lot of room to have an answer to pretty much anything. Obviously I didn't need even half of that stuff in my matches - but that's fine! I didn't feel I was lacking anything either.
What I'd change - hmm, too early to say. I might go ahead and switch 1 Piran with a Bringer of Glory - but IDK. The list is pretty solid as it is. Maaaaybe I would dedicate a slot or two for Control...a Ricochet Trap or a Boil? Ray mentioned that he took out the Chainwhirler for a 4th Anger - a sound strat. I do like having a blocker against Mardu - but is an Anger better? Maybe. Ratchet Bomb is kinda sticking out like a sore thumb as well - never really found much use for it. But I do see that sometimes there is one.
Anyway, those are my thoughts for now! I'm gonna keep running this list maybe with these small alterations. If all turns well I might take it to the Big Tables at GP Stockholm next month.
This is a card that I've been running on and off for the past three months or so. I kinda found it long time ago when browsing through all the nonbasics available. I used to include it in my version of the deck since I have a big dislike over Mutavault. So I have preeeetty extensive testing covered here. Guess it just never occurred to me to mention it here, heh.
Aanyway...I never used it in SB. So Stickballruss might be onto something here - I've only included it MD.
The card. Well. Let's put it this way - when it works, it's awesome. When it doesn't work, it doesn't do anything. The first thing to keep in mind is that nothing, absolutely nothing comes without some assumed cost. If you want to run this card, it requires one of the following:
a) Put it in the maindeck. This affects your out-of-the-box manabase in ways that you might not consider. That OOTB manabase seems to be 17 Mountain, 3 Gemstone Caverns and 1 Mutavault. I'd say you cannot just switch 2 Mountains with 2 Academies. No way - you risk yourself getting color screwed. My suggestion: go 22 lands, with 17 Mountains, 3 Gemstone Caverns and 2 Academies.
b) Put it in the sideboard. No manabase effect, swap them with Caverns. Can use 2-3.
So what do you do? Well here's the thing. This card, is ONLY good against very, very certain matchups - namely those that like Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize. Now this is exactly what I meant above when I said it's very good sometimes. But what needs to happen so that the card is actually DOES something?
a) Have the opponent play discard. Matchups: Jund, Abzan, 8-Rack.
b) Have the card in play BEFORE the discard hits. Let's be honest here - this means be on play AND have the card in your opening 7.
So if you combine this criteria, it's pretty pretty narrow, yeah? Yup. I'd say the possibility of this cards usability is:
The metagame share of decks using discard x the possibility of being on play x having the card in the starting hand
Let's say the metagame share is 50% which is TOTALLY not the case. But bear with me. Possibility of being on the play is 50% on game 1 and the probability of having it in your 7 is based on the amount of this card you have in your deck.
So in this laughable scenario of having the half of every deck using discard, the total possibility of this card DOING ANYTHING is:
1 Academy: 50%x50%x12% = 3%
2 Academies: 50%x50%x22% = 5,5%
3 Academies: 50%x50%x32% = 8%
4 Academies: 50%x50%x22% = 10%
I know what you are thinking: come on, even if you're on the draw, your opponent might have multiple discard spells and hey, the second one he plays has no effect! OK, I'll entertain this idea for a moment. So the metagame share is still the same 50%. Let's rule out the usefulness of being on the play totally. This covers the scenario where we sideboard this card and thus - are ALWAYS on the play. And the draw we draw 8 cards. So the math comes of as:
1 Academy: 50%x13% = 6,5%
2 Academies: 50%x25% = 12,5%
3 Academies: 50%x35% = 17,5%
4 Academies: 50%x44% = 22%.
So even in the PERFECT scenario where over half of the metagame is hit by the card - the odds are very very low. What is the actual metagame share? I don't know, but it's definitely lower than this right?
But the question is, does it matter? Now, here's where things get interesting. The card still produces mana but colorless. So running more than 2 introduces you the world of self hurt. But let's say running 2 is a "free roll". It's still two cards that replace other cards! So in MD - no Mutavault for you AND 22 lands (trust me). In SB - 2 slots, bye bye.
The Magical Christmasland scenario is the following:
T1 you: Nephalia Academy, pass.
T1 opp: Read the card, think for a long time, play Overgrown Tomb tapped, pass.
Sometimes your opponent doesn't even read it and tries to Thoughtseize a Moon and you get to laugh. But let's be honest here. All of this happens EXTEMELY rarely. It feels good I give it that! But that's just cutesy - and we're not cute, we're battle-scarred veterans born in the mountains!
So...considering all these factors - I'd say that no, the card is not worth it. If you want to just have fun, sure, play it. But if you want to be competitive - take it off. You're much better off using those two (or Hazoret forbid - more than that!) slots elsewhere.
And that concludes my in-depth analysis of Nephalia Academy.
Thank you so much. Especially coming from our uncrowned king of Pyro Prison!
A couple of comments:
#1: Oh, yeah. The most important lesson here is to identify your outs. Like really, think what is the best way for you to win? The game keeps evolving so you need to re-think it every turn. Here, after the Jet Scry, I saw that the only way to win was to 1) either go bottom-bottom and hope for a Bridge AND that the opponent doesn't have another Grudge or 2) take the Hazoret and lure him into attacking and haste-kill him right after. The choice was a no-brainer here, yeah?
#2: Uh, that punt was so bad. What could possibly go wrong, right? Well, here's the thing and the lesson #2. Think back on my previous statement. You need to identify your outs, right? Well, it's so much easier to do when losing, as was the case in the Dredge game. It's a psychological thing...the classic limited resources scenario. Here? I'm winning so I go waaaay over my head and...I STOP THINKING! Never, ever do that. Always keep focusing on the playline, and what are your outs. Even when you have the advantage, try to think like...you didn't. What are the opponent's outs? What is he trying to lure YOU into? (As for the Noble Hierarch scenario, there was nothing I could do, so, uh, yeah.)
#3: Yuuup. I guess the lesson #3 is to...uh, think?
So, what have I learned from your versions of the deck so far? Well, for example:
- Goblin Charbelcher is a real, and frightening kill condition. (FluffyWolf)
- Molten Rain truly helps as a 2-of. Turns out the 2 damage included is relevant as well. (FluffyWolf)
- Fight fire with fire - bring your own Eidolons in against Burn and watch their jaw drop. (Fluffywolf)
- Tormenting Voice is strictly better than anything else we have as card draw/filter. (Raystack)
- Witchbane Orb is game over against many, many decks. (Raystack)
- Keeping Bridges in against Control is the correct move. (Raystack)
- Walking Ballista is awesome against Affinity, which otherwise can be problematic. (Stickballruss)
- Sorcerous Spyglass is a necessity. (Stickballruss)
- Four pieces of point removal is the correct amount. (Stickballruss)
So overall I've come to the following conclusions at this point:
- Don't settle on having just 21 lands if your curve is high. Go next level. Play 22. You know you want to.
- You don't need extra protection against control (Boil/Trap).
- Dedicate 1 (one) slot in the SB for Burn. The card needs to be a must-answer and have at least some usage with other decks, though.
- Having 4 Gemstone Caverns is like being on the play, even when on the draw. The upside of maximizing your chances far, far outweighs the downside of drawing onto multiples as you can still use them.
- 9 rituals is the correct amount.
- You want to have MD sweepers.
- You NEED Rabblemasters MD.
- Magma Jet is a necessity. It's a kill spell, it's reach, it's filter, it's good lategame, it's good early game...I want 4 but I don't think I can fit that many in!
Maybe tomorrow I'll change my mind? Hmm?
Right. So I play 99% only on MTGO, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I don't have a LGS so I only get to play "paper" like, once every month or two when I'm work trips. That said...I'm going to have to disagree here, still. Sorry Russ.
Actually, let's compare them.
Walking Ballista
+ Is colorless.
+ Can be re-used.
+ Is a threat in itself.
+ Goes under Thalia and Negate.
- As a kill spell, costs 4 mana for 2 damage.
- As a kill spell, is a sorcery.
- Does not filter/fix draws/starting hands.
Magma Jet
+ Is an instant.
+ Costs 2 for 2 damage.
+ Fixes and filters draws/starting hands.
- Is red.
- Cannot be reused.
- Is not a threat (but short reach).
- Is affected by Thalia and Negate.
So. Strictly comparing these, Ballista is better card-for-card. But look. What is not being said here, is the fact that Jet is miles better earlygame than Ballista. And that's what matters, IMHO. Games are decided on the first 3-4 turns - usually. Look, I get the idea - you play the Ballista and keep growing it. That's the dream, and sometimes it's reality, I'm not saying that. But very often, you just don't have time for that. They play a Guide and you HAVE to have something NOW. Or a Electromancer. Against Hierarch or a Bird they both work - but wouldn't you rather have a Scry for 2 on top of that? Opponent lost their creature and YOU get to advance your gameplan. With Ballista, it's just a 1-for-1.
But! If you just don't *care* for that and are willing to take your chances, believe that you will draw OK anyway - by all means go with the Ballista! I, on the other hand, value consistency and early game more. So - think about our arguments and see which one makes more sense to you. I think we both are correct!
OK one more comment here on extra graveyard hate. Having Relics/Crypts in SB helps against Pyromancer decks, but uhh...isn't that like a knee-jerk reaction? I mean, a decision such as that is being done on something else's expense. If you dedicate a card against a specific deck, it needs to be a must-answer-or-lose card. I don't think emptying GYs warrants that. They will just play other creatures and kill your Bridge anyway. Sure - it can be used against Delve creatures...but aren't we already pretty well placed against them with the Bridges, yeah?
I'd rather just accept that matchup (Mardu Pyromancer) being a very difficult one. If we *really* want to combat it, I think having extra protection for our Bridges is what we want. Well, which is what I'm kinda going after with my Metamorph...
So here's the current deck:
4 Gemstone Caverns
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Magma Jet
1 Slagstorm
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Damping Matrix
1 Torpor Orb
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Skullmead Cauldron
1 Spellskite
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
So, not much has been changed since then. (Edit: 1 Koth for 1 Pia, actually.) I swapped the 2 Ricochet Traps for a Sorcerous Spyglass and a Phyrexian Metamorph. Spyglass is just generally good against everything and Metamorph acts for two roles: aggro and protection. It's another Goblin Rabblemasterwhen need be and another Ensnaring Bridge when you need to turn the lock a little tighter still. It can also copy opponents stuff which is just a plus...a memorable play was when opponent played a Spyglass, named my Koth and landed a Lilly. So I proceeded to cast the Metamorph, copied the Spyglass and named, well, Lilly. A little taste of his own medicine, eh?
Oh and remember what I said about usability of SB cards? The wider they are, the better they go? So - Metamorph. Get it?
22 lands still feels better than 21. I guess the difference ain't that big - ~3% of drawing at least 2 lands in the opening hand - but. The way I see it: if you run too few lands, you don't get to complain when you get manascrewed. If your curve lands lower than usual, with less 4-drops and maybe those maindeck Eidolons? Then it's fine, but otherwise, running 21 is just uh...playing with fire. In the bad way. Very, very often you get stuck with 2 lands and your only threat/lockpiece gone. Running 22 lands does by no means guarantee no manascrews, but hey, at least you know that now it's just variance. Heck, I might go to 23 but I guess that's overboard.
Scab-Clan Berserker is. So. Good. Sure - against Storm it's not as good as an Eidolon (might be slower) - but very, very close. The biggest difference is that whereas opponent might be able to play around Eidolon, there's absolutely no way he can do that against a Berserker. Haste ability also makes for nasty surprises. 3/3 body blocks pretty much everything you want it to block - including Thalia, Guide, Snappys and so on. Come on, try it at least! I mean, both work fine, but don't write this girlie off! Oh did I mention it only hurts the opponent, too.
Skullmead Cauldron is a fine, fine card! It synergizes excellently with Bridge and is a nightmare for Burn. Trading Post might work too, but the difference between casting this and using it immediately and having to spend 1 more mana - is huge. Against slower decks, this acts...kiiiiinda like another Bridge so that it gives you more turns to find a real one. I would never play more than 1 of this Slimy Pot but it, honestly, ain't bad, like at all!
Oh, right, the matches...
Round 1, GW Knightfall, win
G1: Land a Bridge and a Moon, but opponent starts beating my face in with a lone Hierarch. 13 turns later, I still have next to nothing else and die.
G2: Opponent mulls to 5. I play a Grafdigger's Cage, Blood Moon. Opponent has nothing and after a Koth he scoops it up.
G3: Oh Gemstone Caverns, especially as a 4-of. Let me count the ways I love you? ...four. A second turn Koth into a third turn Chandra into Bridge makes life very difficult for our opponent. Try as he might there's no way he can fight a Koth emblem and the game ends pretty quickly.
Round 2, GW Goodstuff, win
G1: Not much to say here, Bridge/Moon/Chandra keeps our opponent from doing anything useful. At Chandra at 7 counters and a topdecked Koth at 5 he concedes.
G2: Keep a sketchy hand with two Rituals, Slagstorm and a Magma Jet. This is exactly what I mean about Jets: they can sculpt a so-so starting hand into something good. Maybe.
Round 3, UW Control, win
G1: Play a Bridge and a Moon and start playing the long game. After some time and a Koth emblem, the game ends.
G2: 1st turn Rabblemaster into a 2nd turn Spellskite. I go too greedy and play a Pia and Her Friend after which my board gets wiped by a Supreme Verdict. I cannot recover and lose. Note to self: don't overextend if you already have lethal on board.
G3: I have no acceleration but keep it anyway. Turns out he doesn't have other counters besides a Spell Snare. A Moon lands nicely and there's nothing he can do anymore. I play a Chalice into a Rabblemaster into a Rabblemaster, so...
Round 4, Sun and Moon, win
G1: The game threatens to go very long due to my slow start. I also kept a hand with a Moon which, suprise surprise, doesn't do anything here. Luckily I topdeck a Bridge (damn I'm good with that) in the very last moment. He has a Nahiri, the Harbinger, Elspeth, Sun's Champion and a Gideon Jura but they don't do much with a Bridge out. He clearly tries to draw out of it but doesn't get an answer and dies to my Hazoret and Chandra.
G2: Opponent leads with a Leyline of Sanctity but is unable to keep up with my growing army of Berserkers and Rabblemasters. Berserkers truly get to shine here due to their haste and damaging them when playing planeswalkers. Sidenote: this matchup leaves so many dead cards that I have a hard time filling all the slots. But it's okay.
Round 5, Dredge, win
G1: I have a Bridge and a Chandra. Ever noticed that this combo is pretty good?
G2: So. I play a Cage and a Pia and a Monkey, start aggroing him. He Grudges my Cage and starts filling up the board. I desperate attack him to 7 and lose a thopter. He wipes my board with a Conflagrate and pukes his grave into play. I have two Jets in hand and EOT Jet him to 5. See a Spellskite and a Hazoret. Think - leave Haz on top. Draw, just pass. He takes my bait and goes all in, leaving me at 1. EOT, another Jet. See Bridge, put to bottom anyway. I play Haz and kill. Sweeeeeeet.
Thank you for your kind words, mister!
The Air Elimination Question has me thinking. Yes - how do we do that? Because let's be honest - we'd just rather play useful stuff, those that affect the game, hmm? Voicing, Jetting, Gambiting through the game...meanwhile our opponent is sitting on the other side of the table, going...okay, sure...anything else??? Landing Moons and Rabble-Ripping hearts out of their chest, is what we do best. That's our game plan. I would even say that filtering and cantripping is bad in general. It does earn a spot in certain decks (Combo or slow Control) but here? Ugh. Everytime I have a Voice in my hand I'm like, ok, but where's the Ritual?
That is pretty much the reason I'm running Jets. They are kinda like air, I'll give them that. But they actually, like actually, also do, you know...stuff?
The big question is though this. Are-there-better-cards-than-this. What we need, are Mulldrifters. Cards that filter/draw AND advance our gameplan - in a meaningful way. Chandra is the prime example of this. But surely there must be more?? Right? Right?? Leaving the filtering/drawing TOTALLY out doesn't sound like a good idea. We need something, that is my strong, strong view. Otherwise we are just playing Slot Machines every time we draw our opening 7 and if it doesn't work...well then we just die. Not fun dying.
That's all I have for now. Oh, sorry about my style of writing, I'm always talking/writing from the top of my head...I guess it can be annoying to some people.
Charbelcher - oh no, don't get me wrong.
Oh and btw - "big grin" is an understatement here. I almost fell off my chair laughing when that happened. I was like HAHAHA WHAT THE EF
Ballista - hold on, thinking. So you're telling me against Control (UWx) it's actually...useful? I always thought that it's waaaaay too slow. But...you are kinda correct that as a 2-drop, it *can* slip through the early countermagic especially when going 1st. Not sure how relevant the Chalice resistance is, though. I mean - if you already have a Chalice on 1 and a Chalice on 2 - isn't the game already pretty much decided, hmm?
3 Rabblemasters. That's how I roll, too, with 1 additional on the side.
Stormbreath, though...hmm. The card is great, don't get me wrong...in Skred. Skred has soooo many pieces of removal AND their threats are extremely frightening AND removal-resistant - can close out the game by themselves. That's pretty much Skred's philosophy. But in Pyro Prison...? Hmm. It *is* an extremely good card against white, so much is true. But the strength of the card lies in the clearing of the way before that. Against GW Goodstuff - you remove the early junk and then land an SB, smile.
But unlike Skred Red - Pyro Prison is unable to do this. We have so much "fluff" and "air" inside our decks that it is *us* who're going to run out of cards to answer. It is just a fun-of and its function is 100% Finisher. It doesn't do anything early game and having to leave her for blocking duty (prot-white), always makes me a sad panda.
Are you insane you ask? Hey comeon, we all are.
Went 3-2.
Round 1, RG Zoo, lose
G1: Opponent mulligans to 4. But I'm really drawing anything, and he comes off surprisingly strong with a 1-drop, followed by another, then another. I get a bridge out but fail to empty my hand.
G2: I remove and remove the creatures but they just keep coming. Oh and Chalice kept hidden for both of the games. Oh well.
Round 2, RGU Scapeshift, win
G1: Moon him early and Rain a land. Double Rabbles eat bolts and Suns. Too bad I had a Belcher. Oh how much you ask? Well check the attachment.
G2: Opponent gets a Leyline, poor thing was probably scared of another Belcher?
Round 3, RG Scapeshift, win
G1: Play an early Rabble and ride it to victory. 'nuff said.
G2: Opponent almost gets me with a Valakut. I'm at 5 life for like 3-4 turns with 2 'Kuts out. But he does not get another Mountain, maybe because of Scaping already? Maybe he was almost out. Finally I topdeck a Moon and run away with the game.
Round 4, Mono U Tron, loss
G1: Ohmigosh. NOT this matchup, I think...while desperately trying to scrape for answers. I have a Chandra and try to play a Rabble, but they get obliterated by said Stone. Well he gets the required million mana and starts recycling the Mindslaver. I throw in the towel at this point.
G2: T1 Rabble, T3 another Rabble and boom shakalaka. Well it CAN happen.
G3: I get to Moon him but nothing helps. He just keeps playing lands and countering and bouncing my stuff. Eventually a Ballista and a Batterskull lands and I decide to hand over the game to him.
Round 5, Burn, win
G1: So funny. I start the game thinking "well...last game...probably Burn or something as always..." Opponent leads off with a T1 Guide. I'm like WTF? I'm a psychic
G2: I get a Chalice-1 out but he keeps smashing my face with the two Guides that slipped by. Eventually he Charms me and, well.
G3: This was a tough-as-nails match:
T1 me land
T1 opp land, Guide, get in
T2 me land, Chalice on 1
T2 opp land, get in with Guide, Eidolon
T3 me land, Moon
T4 opp get in with Guide and Eidolon, another Eidolon, suspend Bolt
T5 me land (double Caverns so other dies), Ballista on 2
T5 opp plays Bolt from suspend on me, gets in with 2 Eidolon, Guide. Block Eidolon, shoot the other
T6 me at 5 life. Have 2 Chalices and 2 Eidolons in hand. Play Eidolon
T6 opp thinks for a very long time, eventually just passes
T7 me pass
T7 opp land, pass
T8 me land, Chalice on 2 (drew Rabble)
T8 opp get in with Guide, Eidolon. Block Eidolon
T9 me draw Chandra, go like can do, play, flameslash Guide
T9 opp So at this point I'm at 1 life. I'm like, Rift Bolt I die, pass I win. Pass.
T10 me ramp Chandra, get to 6 mana, Chalice on 3. Opp scoops it up.
Wheeeew! Preetty close.
Observations and thoughts: Zoo felt almost like stealing the game from me. But that's variance it happens. U-Tron on the other hand...that is just unwinnable a matchup. I mean, come on.
Shifts, escpecially two in a row, were free wins. That MU is like, soo lopsided it's not even funny. How is it possible that two decks that attack from the same angles have such different experiences - Pyro Prison and Skred Red? I used to play Skred for a year and a half and always dreaded that MU, but here...it's a joke. Well usually at least.
Burn...well it's usually this: get a Chalice on 1, play moon. Should be enough unless you can't deal with the slipping Eidolons and Skullcracks. Oh and be careful with playing a creature since they might Blaze it and you. Sometimes (not with this deck but in general) a good idea is to KothNimate THEIR mountain so that they cant Blaze. Hey, it works. Obviously my G3 later line was devastating and turned to soft prison into a hard one. I mean, what can they do with Double chalice, very little but they MIGHT have a chance, still...another on 3 is 100% unbeatable they have 0 outs left.
So the cards...well I can't spit over Belcher due to insane damage output I managed to squeeze out of it. Buutt...heheh
Cards I did like: Molten Rain. I never really managed to hurt anyone real bad with it, due to their Basic resistance, but I definitely saw the light here. Hope it's not a train
Eidolon: sorry, I still prefer my newest find: Scab Clan Berserker. Does everything and more. Hurts you only with a low, low cost of 3 mana. Buy yours today!
Spree on SB: why no Matrix. No seriously isn't Matrix better in almost every scenario...?
Ballista: further and further moving away from him. He's either a 2 mana removal for a 1 drop (wee-aak) OR a 4 mana 2/2 with a 1ping potential. Even after spending your NEXT turn also, he grows to be a 3/3 (whoop-de-doo) and can ping for 1 or 2. So for a EIGHT mana investment over two turns, you get a 3/3 with a pinging potential of 1 or 2 or kill with 3. Sorry, everytime I bring him in I regret it. Maybe there is just something I don't get but EVERYTIME I find myself thinking "why oh why can't this be a JET"...
4 Sweepers: me likey. Sounds like a correct number.
And that's all folks!
Thanks for your input.
But let's put it this way - I'm referring more to a, ah, unknown meta.
There is more to this however - you only bring in certain cards in certain matchups. So in my example - I think it's fair to say you would never, ever bring in a Skullmead Cauldron against ETron, right?
But. I think the usefulness of a SB card should be based on two factors - it's strength against the matchups it's "meant" for - and the other possible ones...so, width.
Thank you @Raystack for the hearty welcome and comments.
Skullmead Cauldron, yup...so. I guess it is fair to say the card is better than Dragon's Claw for all intents and purposes, maybe? But is it better than Witchbane Orb? Against Burn? Absolutely. Against other decks? Hmm...perhaps we need to evaluate our sideboard slots with a different formula. How about this:
Sideboard card value = n1+n2+n3...
Where n stands for the card's approximate score against a given matchup on a (made-up) 1-10 scale. Consider the following example, using your match-ups:
Skullmead Cauldron = 8 (Burn) + 3 (Scapeshift) + 0 (Ad Nauseam) + 2 (Eldrazi Tron) + 3 (Storm) = 16
Witchbane Orb = 6 (Burn) + 5 (Scapeshift) + 3 (Ad Nauseam) + 4 (Eldrazi Tron) + 4 (Storm) = 21
Explaining in common terms: Cauldron is excellent against Burn, kinda bad against Shift, useless against Ad and kinda bad/kinda useless against ETron/Storm. Orb on the other hand, is decent against Burn, okayish against Shift, kinda bad against Ad and somewhat okay against ETron and Storm. Disclaimer: the scores themselves here are, obviously, my personal, quick&rough evaluations
Either way - in the above example we can clearly see Orb being of higher value a card than Cauldron. Therefore - Orb should take preference over Cauldron. Simple, yes?
Another small thought: your pet card Tormenting Voice got me thinking. You prefer that, I prefer Magma Jet. Maybe the question is not which one to use, but whether or not to filter at all? Let's be honest here - the difference between running Jets + "more" removal and Voices + "less" removal is minimal. Both achieve the same goal: either getting rid of an early threat and filtering a little OR taking a hit early and digging deeper for a wider answer (Bridge/sweeper).
There are builds that run basically 0 filters/draws (besides Chandra). So which one is "better"? To value consistency over explosiveness or to trust the RNG to tilt things in our favour? I remember you Raystack saying: "explosiveness > consistency" or something along those lines. But isn't having Voices kinda contradicting this statement?
Let's kick things off with my current decklist.
4 Gemstone Caverns
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Magma Jet
1 Slagstorm
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Damping Matrix
1 Torpor Orb
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Skullmead Cauldron
1 Spellskite
2 Ricochet Trap
I mostly play on MTGO, usually get at least a 3-2 with some occasional 4-1s thrown in the mix. Yesterday I had my third 5-0, too! My constructed rating is at 1820 something at the moment...not a big deal but pretty cool?
So about my card choices...
I like having 22 lands as opposed to 21. Also I find Mutavault lackluster as it oftentimes is just a Mountain. Caverns is sweet and quite important on the draw, so I'm running 4. Ritual count feels good at 9, still.
4 spot-removal and 1 sweeper. Keeps creatures at bay for just long enough. Jets are nice for filtering and removal so they serve two purposes. Hazoret is MD since it's almost always good and has that "gotcha" thing going on as well.
Berserkers on Eidolon slot in the SB, how about that?
I want to run 2 Torpor Orbs. It's so good.
2 Angers...kinda want a third one. But 2's okay for now.
Skullmead Cauldron?? Heh well...this is against Burn in Witchbane Orb's stead. Also experimental. My reasoning is that Orb might not do anything late game...they might break it or just run you through with creatures/Eidolons. Cauldron, on the other hand, takes you farther and farther away every turn it sees play. It's pretty good whenever you play it (as opposed to Dragon's Claw, for instance). The discard clause is hardly a problem either and might even help you (with Bridges and an Eidolon out). Still testing...
Ricochet Trap is better than Boil IMHO. They are both used (usually) for one thing - forcing that certain spell in (Moon/Threat/whatever). Obviously Boil hurts them in the longer run...but then again, it might not if all they have are two Islands and rest are...I don't know, other lands.
Thoughts?