If I resolve Wish and select, for example greater gargadon; can I use its suspend ability or is that different from 'play' keyword somehow?
Also I am confused a bit on when a card like restore balance will have a manacost. I know it works with as foretold, and you can even 'cheat' it into play with brain in a jar + sacrifice effect. If someone could clear this up it would be appreciated.
Is there some way to tell what every legal set was for this pro tour? I am building a premodern Prosperous Bloom deck and want to research to find cards that could be updated with the bigger premodern card pool.
I worry about the cost of all of these cards. Those mana costs are brutal. Siege will always go into a card draw 'engine' spot, not one of your interactive spots so you could potentially run both.
Monastery siege has been excellent for me if my opponent is slow at all or not seriously clocking me in the red zone. Probably meta dependent. Been testing Bontu's Last Reckoning and Sultai Ascendancy and they both seem like they have a lot of potential. Sultai Asc 'digs' deeper than Siege does so Im trying numbers skewed towards Asc but using both. 2 Siege 3 Asc. Bontus has been excellent and Im super curious about it. Im wondering if my semi working Sultai list could work using cards like Treasure Map + Clockspinning in some numbers. Simian spirit guide also works well with Bontus and helps me unload my hand which sometimes has been an issue with my newer lists with clunky 3 mana things all over the place.
I also wonder about the potential about a list using aether vial and one of the 'artifacts cost 1 less' creatures for 2 mana. Huge combo potential with paradoxical outcome to find things fast and replay/dump hand.Noose Constrictor to dump hand. Potential to use eladamris -> Constrictor or 1 of Tribute mage to find your brain in a jar to combo off.
Hey guys, just wanted to post my decision on which version I'm going to play. It's the ED version with 4x Finale. Crashing Footfalls and Ancestral Vision provide the deck with the gas it needs. Finale is like icing on the cake. Plus, it's really fun to pilot.
I'm also a firm believer that borderposts still need to be in the deck. The ability to withdraw lands in the early turns without Garg is just too good. I've played against lots of tier decks and lots of random brews and I'm finding that I am doing better with posts than without. I tried 2 different strategies: 3x Garg/8x posts and 4x Garg/4x Call/3x Astrolabe. In the tutor version, I found I wasn't able to reduce land count enough before needing to Balance. They would just draw into 1 creature *cough Tarmogoyf* and then I'm on a clock again. In the posts version, I was able to keep their land count down to 1 if I didn't naturally find a Garg. I won't lie I did get blown out by Eldrazi tron and Karn a few times because I needed the posts color mana. All in all, my posts felt like they helped more than being able to tutor for Garg. A lot of the time I wasn't tutoring fast enough, or I didn't have the one extra red mana to suspend Garg AND Balance in the same turn. I'm going to stick with the 3x Garg/8x Posts that I'm running; that feels the best to me.
Next, card advantage is more than just drawing additional cards. For example Anger of the Gods against a bunch of Goblins + tokens could be spending 1 card to wipe out 6 permanents, or a 1-for-6. The Balance itself is insane for card advantage if you're properly set up for it. If you look at Snapcaster Mage the reason it's so good is that it provides more card advantage by giving you a 2/1 body, and allowing you to reuse a spell you've already played. Dark Confidant is a great example because normally it will give you several cards for only using 1 card. Thopter Spy Network is another fantastic example. Not only does it give a hard to remove enchantment, each turn it gives you a 1/1 flying body that also has the potential to keep you drawing more cards. It's pure card advantage.
As a midrange combo deck I feel like our card choices need to have a lot more value in them. For this reason I'm not looking at using counterspells. I'm looking at using threats which will need to be countered or removed. Counterspells are typically 1-for-1 exchanges and I don't think that's good enough.
This is why I really like Finale of Promise in the deck. It gives those already used spells a second chance to come back and get good value. Being able to count it as Balance 5-8 is really nice too.
Both are 2 card combos so they would be fairly easy to implement into the deck. The Spike Feeder/Heliod seems better because they wouldn't work against the Balance shell, but then infinite life won't win the game directly like infinite tokens will. Would only be 8 potential slots with maybe more for tutors. Could work in both versions of the deck? Thoughts?
Would you mind posting both those lists? (search eladamris and borderpost).
I was always super convinced borderposts were not the way to go unless I was on cascade because of how easy those cards are to hate out. Running borderposts into a artifact removal card or god forbid ancient grudge is rough. Thats why I always avoid them if I can help it at all.
Even with 4 call and 4 gargadon youre still having trouble suspending gargadon? Sometimes I might just call that being unlucky because thats normally been plenty of ways to fetch up a garg to suspend.
As for more combos make sure you arent diulting the strategy too much. Overlap cards or cards that hit our goals while maintaining the board state will probably help more than individual cards that are nuts when drawn with their counterparts. Especially when we can only run 1-4 of a card "A" and 1-4 of a card "B".
We need so many things to line up already it will probably hurt the deck to require this many slots and maybe even more build around cards to bring it together. That said you do have eladamri's call or congregation at dawn.
Please make sure your sideboard includes probably 2 minimum and easily 3 or even 4 Ceremonious Rejection. When a single card eats our deck so hard we really need to put some SB slots dedicated to stopping it. I also run a lot of remand since its great for tempo and staying on gameplan with the +1 draw, especially if you can go off next turn.
Ive been messing around with a black list but I havent been able to find a playtest partner for a while to test anything new :C
Here is my new spicy black list. It aims to grind my opponent down and win via attrition or maybe just a gargadon. Or maybe I get a small faerie army going and overrun them. Bitterblossom by itself can out race its -1 damage provided the board is clear, but with Bad moon you can actually push your faeries pretty hard into the red zone.:
Another cool card I just found is Sultai Ascendancy. Anyone who has played with Mirri's Guile before can attest to the strength of this type of card having a per-turn filter effect.
@SunTzu - Sorry my posts might seem a bit brash; it's not my intention at all. When I type out responses on here I normally end up writing about 1500 words and then I go through and take all the 'fluff' out to leave in the brunt of what I'm trying to say. I can see how that might come off as condescending. I have to edit out the stuff that makes it sound like I'm casually talking, otherwise my posts would be very long. I have to be careful because I can analyse things to the nth degree and I have to remember that people don't want to read huge blocks of text.
That said, I've played thousands of games with this deck - cascade and ED. The problems that both versions have are close to the same. There's no deck that's going to be good against every deck in the field, but Restore Balance is quite powerful. I really enjoy the way it plays. There's no other deck like it.
I'm completely with you that the deck can be built many different ways. That's one of the reasons I enjoy building lists and trying them out. We don't know for sure what the best way is.
What this deck really is lacking is card advantage. As a mid-range combo deck our only card that provides true card advantage is the Balance itself.
I believe there's 2 main 'roads' if you will for the deck to be optimal:
- Cascade
- ED with Finale and Vision/Footfalls
The other variants are just spread too thin imo. Some of my lists fall prey to this as well; I'm not perfect. We can't have all the best threats, all the best removal, and the best card advantage. There aren't enough card slots after lands and the Balance package. This is where I think the most difficult part of building this deck lies. The cascade version has further restrictions here because it has to play posts otherwise Balance doesn't get good CA. On top of that it also has the 3 CMC mana problem. The upside is that cascade itself is kind of a tutor for 0 mana which is really nice.
As mentioned before, nobody knows the best list. These are only my opinions.
For card advantage we have thirst for knowledge, fact or fiction, (my least favorite) ancestral vision.
Personally from my testing (non cascade) tutors are often times much much better than card advantage. You can spend a lot of time and mana digging for things but just drawing 1 tutor and getting what you need is elegant. From there sometimes instead of more draw I have just run more redundancy, depending. The main problem being these 'good' draw spells are very clunky mana costs, typically. We have thoughtcast but draw 2 is almost not good enough, just being +1 card advantage. Thirst for knowledge is very good, and monastery siege is as well; but they are 3 mana. The worst on a mana curve.
I did consider and make a paradoxical outcome list but I needed mox's 0 mana cost.
One of our main 'hero' cards (non cascade) is arcums astrolabe. <3 that card.
First thing I notice is that your new list does not include Brain in a Jar. It seemed like you were very attached. Care to elaborate why you removed it?
I do like the Bontu's Reckoning and the Lilly package you have, but why aren't you running Fatal Push/Dismember? Also, no Abrupt Decay? Have you considered running an IoK/Thoughtseize package? I think that's one thing that hasn't been explored at all with the ED lists which should be. The ability to remove problem cards seems promising.
Since you're going to be competitive, let's take a look at some of the things you're going to have to beat in this meta:
- Spike Feeder + Heliod, Sun-Crowned. With BoP or Hierarch they can combo for infinite life on turn 3, turn 4 without.
- Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies. This one also needs another combo piece in some form but that's also a turn 3 combo.
- Infect throws down Glistener Elf on turn 1 and turn 2 you'll probably be dead with the pump spells they have. If it's Blighted Agent it's 1 turn slower.
- Ad Naus can combo turn 3 now with the help of Thassa's Oracle. The deck can also combo turn 2 on a nut hand.
- Storm can combo on turn 3 with a nut hand.
- Burn can kill you on turn 4 consistently, especially if they draw multiple Eidolons.
- Scapeshift now has Dryad of the Ilysian Grove which means they can Scapeshift on turn 4.
- Dredge has Ox of Agonas, Life from the Loam, and Narcomoeba to block Garg.
- Tron has turn 3 Karn/Ugin AND they can play Chalice for 0.
- Humans has Meddling Mage, Thalia, and Lavinia, Azorius Renegade.
- Death's Shadow has hand removal and Stubborn Denial, along with burn spells.
- Jund, well I'm not even going to go there.
How consistent is your 'full-combo'? Is it happening in 75%+ of your games, after sideboarding? If you're consistent even after sideboarding then maybe I'm wrong. I just don't see how your list is going to be consistent with 0 card draw and no way to find As Foretold. You're just praying that you get everything you need in your opening hand, and that the opponent doesn't disrupt you in some way. In a goldfish world, your deck looks fine. Against a competitive meta, I'm just not seeing it. Those are my opinions though. Prove me wrong.
Brain is for non cascade lists that want to be as fast as possible. This deck is slow/grindy. Doenst need to win with the first balance since I can offload my manabase into artifact mana and use that for things like bontus.
I just dont really have room for every single card. So I opted towards being streamlined in my approach / gameplan. I want to control the board, maybe stick a liliana. Eventually have 0 lands (gargadon) and restore balance. And eventually win from grinding them down and winning via attrition or just a gargadon. You guys seemed to think we need more than 1 wincon so I added a few more. Even using 18 mana I still need so many of each type of card to make things work and give overlap so I can run 5-8 of a certain card instead of only 1-4. Like how I'm now running 4 As foretold with typically some number of brain with 4 tolaria west+4 balance.
Im not interested in beating every single deck. Like I said everything is meta dependent so just build what you think will work best and most consistently. Sure I'll have garbage matchups but its modern, every deck has garbage matchups. And every list I make will obviously be better vs different types of lists. Its not like I play each list Ive posted X times I havent had much time to test since mox was banned. Im giving you guys concept ideas so people can see what Im talking about: That non cascade can be made in a LOT of different ways and each way can have plenty of overlap and consistency. Then hopefully with any extra slots you can build to your meta. Our deck can be up to 5 colors with ease.
As for 'full combo' typically when I combo off Im at maybe 1 or 2 cards in hand (almost every single time) and 0 lands and 0 creatures. Either that or I didn't make it in time. This will depend on my opponent.
Honestly dude I know youre trying to help but sometimes you seem pretty condescending. Seems like youve been 100% sure my approach wont work despite presumably having never even tested using moxes or seen it work. Have you even tried to playtest non cascade at all? Idk maybe you updated your list but the last one you posted seemed both very scattered and easy to attack from many angles like borderposts being a huge target, which would explain why you seem so convinced this cant work if thats the only list youve tried in this archetype. Try to tone it down a bit man were all on the same side. And honestly if you want this deck that has huge % against all of the field why are you even here?
Hi, sorry for a brief absence. But I have a few more questions, for you.
1. Arcum's Astrolabe: I don't think you need this mana fixer in your deck. You don't seem to run enough blue to warrent this.
2. Coldsteel Heart: I feel the ETB-Tapped is a bit slow, compared to your borderposts which do its job better by giving you a -1 land count for balances
3. I like your sideboard. I think you've got a solid one there.
Astrolabe is awesome. Even just being 1 food and a cantrip is fine. Mana fixing is nice it just brings it all together and gives great consistency, whilst being 'perfect' to slot into any manacurves.
Borderposts are a huge potential weakness. I feel bad running any but were really short on options for this category outside of signets/talismans which dont give double black too well and I dont want to ping myself every time I tap for black mana. So while coldsteel is slower, it gives the color I need (prob the core color black for BB1 bontus). Borderposts giving -1 land is not always an upside, its situational. And if you cant 'shortcut' it its just worse. Def not a card Im trying to play.
Thanks mate! Yea our SB options for this list are great. Finding Ceremonious Rejection recently was great. Fk you karn! Lol
I'll leave you guys with my 'bant' list I brewed up:
@SunTzu - I have to ask, when you play MTG, are you playing competitively or just for fun? That makes a big difference. I understand your goal isn't to win against every list. No deck can win a majority of the time against a competitive field. When that happens, bans happen. What I'm trying to highlight is that your all-in combo isn't going to work against a majority of the decks present in Modern at the moment. I can give at least half a dozen examples if you like.
Lost Legacy/Bitterblossom aren't seeing play so we don't have to worry about them. We don't need to worry about cards until they start showing up. What we do have to worry about is surviving until we can actually Balance. In your case you must have tutors for Garg, Balance in hand, AND have a way to cast it, all before losing.
The problem with being so hyper focused is that you leave yourself vulnerable. Traditionally, decks that require 3 combo pieces in order to go off have a hard time. They're inconsistent, easy to disrupt, and can't adjust to changes in the meta. If you look back at all of the combo decks of the past they all have a few things in common. They make insane amounts of mana, they gain infinite life, deal infinite damage, draw infinite cards, or generate lots of tokens. This deck isn't doing that; it's doing the opposite.
You have many cards in your deck that aren't doing anything. Ghostly Prison isn't helping you gain consistency. Neither is your trinket/Karn package. Bauble is just replacing itself. I'd actually rather see you go back to Scheming + Codex than run Prison and Bauble. The mana trinkets aren't getting you anywhere. They give you 4 mana on turn 3, when you only need 3. Karn isn't doing anything other than being a chump blocker. Fact or Fiction is too slow.
You should add Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand to your list as 4 ofs. Storm needs both of them and so does Ad Nauseam. In order for a combo deck to work in Modern, they have to have draw fixing. Using Jar, you also have the advantage of not needing double red for ED. I think at some point you'll find that needing 4 colors to suspend Garg, play Call, and play cantrips/As Foretold is going to cost you. Not having Mox Opal really cramps your land selection and you've circumvented that by using trinkets and Glimmervoid. I would like to see you tweak the lands in a way that you're playing less fetches/shocks, and still be able to cast everything you need to, instead of relying on Bauble + Glimmervoid. The fetches are just making your burn matchup worse, but you do need some kind of color fixing. Pentad Prism wouldn't be a bad idea because you could pitch it to Garg after you've removed your counters. The drawback of changing your lands and removing the trinkets is that you'll be crushed by Blood Moon, but that's a risk you should take imo.
I still disagree on being a combo deck but I know that's what you really enjoy so I'm trying to help you improve that aspect of your deck.
Edit: Please find a way to add SSG to your list. That will give you the option of Balancing sooner.
Yes I play to compete. Thats my goal of building decks and tweaking them. To improve them to compete more.
I havent run into lost legacy or bitterblossom. I have lost to extirpate once though. Should I run more threats and ways to win? Maybe, but Im not overly worried about it since gargadon does work and almost every time its not an issue. Then I can be that much more focused and consistent in my approach and not have to worry about clunky cards that arent getting me there.
Our '3 combo pieces' aren't just 4 ofs tho. Some of them can be in multiples and all of them can be fetched or drawn into with good draw spells. And sure were not winning with lifegain or w/e or on the spot but when I have a garg in play and they have 1 card in hand (maybe), its a 2 turn clock almost every single time and rarely if ever are they coming back. Maybe I have to attack liliana first so she cant -2. Either way the massive clock is ending them fast.
Youre prob right about not needing Bauble now. The main plus to this was to be thrown into gargs mouth, not even for the draw. Just the 0 mana cost that sometimes gives you a card. Maybe not needed.
Cantrips might work, havent tried them in large numbers yet. That said, you can spend a lot of time and mana spinning your wheels and still not end up with enough artifacts to feed gargadon. Which is typically my goal.. to balance then attack with gargadon on the exact same turn (which is why it end up feeling more like a combo deck to me). Simian spirit guide is the same deal. Its not an artifact and while the +1 mana is great, its fleeting. Sometimes the extra 1 mana whenever you want it might be better as just a land or just a talisman, I have found. I used to play with SSG a lot, not so much anymore. Maybe as a 1 of. Its just a tiny bit too niche or something, idk. Not quite enough power. Who knows, maybe you could be in a spot where you are running some monastery siege or fact or fiction or some random card like that where that turn-earlier spell is more gas than normal.
4 color is not a problem. Neither is splashing GW in a UR deck. I could be 5 colors easily. Theres so many cards to enable that its absurd. Do not need mox. It just helped. Really theres plenty without mox to fix mana.
Signets / talismans are phenomenal. Exactly what you want with balance. For example here is a black list Ive been cooking up:
@SunTzu - I'm not sure how to word my thoughts here without being too edgy. My hope is that I can show you to think more exponential and not lineal. If I come off as aggressive or diminishing that's not my intention at all. My intention is to help show you some valuable lessons I've learned playing the deck, and guide you to a better version.
That said, the problem with most of your lists is they only work on unsuspecting opponents. I get that you're 'all-in' on the Garg+Balance combo. It feels wonderful to 'full Balance' and attack with a Garg twice and just win. The problem is, you expect every game to go like this. The reality is, a good player playing a good deck is going to be able to stop/slow you down AND play their strategy, which is going to result in more losses than wins.
I'm going to highlight some potential weaknesses you'll have to overcome in order to win more games than lose.
- Burn - you have no methods of lifegain, 5 fetch lands, and no ways of protecting your life points other than Balancing
- Turn 1 Thoughtseize - taking your Garg/Call/Balance - if they remove even one of your combo pieces you rely on drawing lucky to survive, let alone win
- 7 ways to cast Balance - if one gets countered you have no backup plan
- Ghostly Prison - burn, combo decks (Ad Naus, Storm, infinite damage combos, etc) and control won't care about Prison
- Counterspells - What if I (opponent) counter just 1 Balance? Can you still put pressure on me before I win the game?
- Enemy Walkers - You have no way of removing a Liliana of the Veil. She can +1 all day against you and then ultimate and repeat.
- Only wincon of Garg/Karn critters - if someone plays Ghostly Prison/Ensnaring Bridge against you how do you win??
Next, I'll go over some anti-synergies in your own deck that you might not see.
- Jar - I know you like it, but it's bad. You HAVE to have a suspended Garg or your combo doesn't work. This is foolish. You can't guarantee that in 100% of games you can suspend Garg. It is VERY possible to go an entire match without seeing those 7 cards. Even if you bump up Call to 4x, there's still a good chance you never get the opportunity to find it. Even if you run Serum Powder there's a chance you won't see Garg.
- Karn - You only have 1 sideboard target which again requires that you must have Garg suspended. If you don't have Garg/Balance, Karn does nothing for you. You don't have any ways of protecting him. You're going to win with Signets and Talismans which would be 2/2's? You only have 7 in the deck too, so you're not going to have a little army.
- As Foretold - There's only 1 card in the deck getting value from this, and that is Balance. The true power of As Foretold comes from being able to wipe the board completely (with or without Garg) and still be able to cast spells with it. Playing trinkets which don't do anything, or tutoring for Garg is not what this card is for. If you're getting it up to 4 counters for Karn/FoF then you should have already won. Why not include more of the suspend cards? Ancestral Vision is still a draw 3 for 0. Crashing Footfalls makes 8 power for 0. Think about it. Those cards are very threatening for an opponent.
- Mishra's Bauble - Why is this here? You're not getting any card advantage from it. It's just replacing itself. You can't tell me that Bauble+Fetch is going to win you the game. Those 4 slots could be used for Lightning Bolt, Assassin's Trophy, or a threat which will actually win the game.
My advice for anyone wanting to play this deck, when building this deck you need to think about what an opponent is going to do in order to get around Balance. Nearly every deck in the format has answers for us, so we must have answers for them. We also need to take into account what is actually threatening in our lists. Having a clear board after a Balance isn't threatening at all, it just slows the game down. If I could recommend anything, try a list with many threats and basic Balance package. It's going to be awkward to play, but you'll see dependable threats will win you games even without Balance. Good cards win games.
A few cards that haven't been mentioned much which could be very good for us:
- Fulminator Mage - 2/2 body which can be removed at a moment's notice so it works well with Balance.
- Veil of Summer - Nobody has mentioned this as a way to combat counterspells. I'm thinking this has to be a staple sideboard choice for ED lists
- Huntmaster of the Fells - This card is a sleeper and I loved playing it in my cascade version. On a clean board I'd rather have Huntmaster than Garg. Flipped version is Ravager of the Fells.
- Indestructible God creatures - They work well with pre-Balance boards since they often won't be creatures until late game. Only work with posts though, but they are indestructible wincons otherwise. Klothys, Thassa, and Keranos are my best picks.
- Kitchen Finks - This one is really cool with Garg suspended. You can either just gain 4 and remove 2 counters or it's a 3/2 body. It's a really good chump blocker which does a fine job at stalling 2 turns until you can Balance.
P.S. For every Balance player - The rise of Wrenn and Six is going to make this deck REALLY hard to pilot. The deck HAS to have maindeck answers. His +1 insures they can rebuild at 1 land per turn. This must be addressed moving forward.
Brother Im telling you we can approach the list in more than one way and there is enough breathing room and different cards to work with to enable many strategies.
I like very focused strategies that nuke everything. They are typically more combo than midrange or control. They will probably lose to extirpate but honestly Im not building my deck around every single card, and if I was I definitely would not be on this list because its far too reliant on moving parts and build around cards in my experience. Any creature.deck will be more focused, consistent, and (hopefully) able to combat random hate. If I was to be worried about being a high % against every single deck in the format I prob wouldnt be playing this list because its a tad bit slow. Restore Balance is a fun build around card. I see what you mean about different things but I think you misunderstand the focus of my list, which isnt to beat every single type of list. Modern is too diverse for that. Im not planning on winning vs red deck wins, and probably not storm, and I'll take a "L" to extirpate.
I promise you, youre just wrong about brain in a jar. When your goal is to balance one single time with gargadon suspended (about all of the core of every deck I make in this archetype) this card is GAS other than the single mana cost which is only truly 'costly' because of tolaria west's 3+ brains 1. Not because brain by itself is clunky. Not only that, it helps in control matchups. I have won many games off the back of people trying to get a tiny bit of value at EOT; whoops I win at instant speed since youre tapped out.
Thoughtsieze decks can be rough, but unless they are more aggro-tilted, I can compete with them and have a close matchup. And especially if my list is tuned well. To be resilient to this I need a lot of redundancy which my decks always have, and also either a lot of tutors or a lot of 'good' card draw.
We definitely can make a midrange list that is more grindy and doesnt 'need' gargadon. That said, as long as gargadon isnt straight extirpated we can still make other type of lists work. Or have just a very small handful of win-cons outside of gargadon that play more off of balance.
Wren and six I have never been even a tiny bit scared of. I just attack their face and they die in 2 turns.
I do appreciate all the feedback. Were not improving at all if we cant raise concerns and consider things.
Please drop any lists you come up with, especially non cascade ones, rough or not and we can talk about ways to tweak them.
Its just a starting point I was about to work on a bit more. Basically the goal is the same: Get garg in hand -> Suspend ASAP (Early turns is better, which is why I use 3 eladamri's and 4 garg). From there -> play artifacts and mana and try to 'full combo' off as fast as possible. I have 7 combo pieces to CAST balance, 1 more that can be fetched with Karn (who also doubles duty as someone with a target on his head to soak up damage), 4 balances, and 4 tolaria wests for the times when you can either have as foretold in play -> tolaria -> Combo off with '3 mana' and 1 enabler and 1 gargadon. Brain slightly worse for this since its 3 mana for tolaria + 1 for brain. That said, I can combo off instant speed using brain which is going to help a lot more for control matchups. Especially against people who wont know WTF brain in a jar is for till they have seen me 'cheat' the restore balance with it, having put its trigger on the stack then sac it to gargadon in response to cast a 0 spell.
Early turns you just jam as much mana in as possible. Playing talisman into talisman is super easy on the manabase. In my experience this results in us having plenty of mana if we want it, AND 'ramped' mana for things like Karn or Fact or Fiction (need lots of draw to feed gargadon primarily).
I have Karn in there as 2nd wincon with Ghostly prison + Balance making it very very hard for people to attack when I start disrupting mana. Karn might be better suited as another PW, but does have the small added bonus of both fetching a combo piece (brain from SB) AND making attackers if needs be later in the game.
This list also shows how easy it should be to find the colors you need using signets/talismans/artifact mana. Even with mox being gone.
So compared to my old lists its going to a bit slower, but more interactive by a tiny bit.
BTW guys, while Mox Opal was a phenomenal card for us; we can still just jam signets/talismans/borderposts(my least fav)/artifact mana (pentad prism). They still do double duty with feeding gargadon, and staying around post balance. And let you play less lands total but still be very consistent with mana, even being able to breathe a LOT more with your nonbasic lands. They also enable any color combinations with relative ease.
Youre right about playing vs a really bad hate card like extirpate. Take our balance or our gargadon and its easy match, or at least should be.
Also, for a black list; bitterblossom survives balance, chump blockers for days, and feeds gargadon every turn. Interesting at least.
Heres an example of what Im talking about with artifact mana:
hey bro, have you considered sword of body and mind and sword of feast and famine in here? seems like sword of body and mind would be especially good since when you equip it to your phyrexian crusader you gain protection from red, white, blue, and green too. all thats left to kill your guy is basically dismember at that point lol. worth trying i'd say
Another obvious one (in the rules) that cant cast it is snapcaster mage.
I think I understand it mostly now.
If I understand you correctly aetherflux marvel should work, to cast restore balance.
Do you know any cards which WONT work to cheat it into play? I know the cards are special in that they have no manacost unlike 99% of cards.
Also I am confused a bit on when a card like restore balance will have a manacost. I know it works with as foretold, and you can even 'cheat' it into play with brain in a jar + sacrifice effect. If someone could clear this up it would be appreciated.
If I have multiple fluctuators in play it will help my X costs, right? So Decree Cycling with 2 fluctuators in play is 1 White mana for X=2?
I feel like probably, just wanted to be sure.
I worry about the cost of all of these cards. Those mana costs are brutal. Siege will always go into a card draw 'engine' spot, not one of your interactive spots so you could potentially run both.
Monastery siege has been excellent for me if my opponent is slow at all or not seriously clocking me in the red zone. Probably meta dependent. Been testing Bontu's Last Reckoning and Sultai Ascendancy and they both seem like they have a lot of potential. Sultai Asc 'digs' deeper than Siege does so Im trying numbers skewed towards Asc but using both. 2 Siege 3 Asc. Bontus has been excellent and Im super curious about it. Im wondering if my semi working Sultai list could work using cards like Treasure Map + Clockspinning in some numbers. Simian spirit guide also works well with Bontus and helps me unload my hand which sometimes has been an issue with my newer lists with clunky 3 mana things all over the place.
I also wonder about the potential about a list using aether vial and one of the 'artifacts cost 1 less' creatures for 2 mana. Huge combo potential with paradoxical outcome to find things fast and replay/dump hand.Noose Constrictor to dump hand. Potential to use eladamris -> Constrictor or 1 of Tribute mage to find your brain in a jar to combo off.
Would you mind posting both those lists? (search eladamris and borderpost).
I was always super convinced borderposts were not the way to go unless I was on cascade because of how easy those cards are to hate out. Running borderposts into a artifact removal card or god forbid ancient grudge is rough. Thats why I always avoid them if I can help it at all.
Even with 4 call and 4 gargadon youre still having trouble suspending gargadon? Sometimes I might just call that being unlucky because thats normally been plenty of ways to fetch up a garg to suspend.
As for more combos make sure you arent diulting the strategy too much. Overlap cards or cards that hit our goals while maintaining the board state will probably help more than individual cards that are nuts when drawn with their counterparts. Especially when we can only run 1-4 of a card "A" and 1-4 of a card "B".
We need so many things to line up already it will probably hurt the deck to require this many slots and maybe even more build around cards to bring it together. That said you do have eladamri's call or congregation at dawn.
Please make sure your sideboard includes probably 2 minimum and easily 3 or even 4 Ceremonious Rejection. When a single card eats our deck so hard we really need to put some SB slots dedicated to stopping it. I also run a lot of remand since its great for tempo and staying on gameplan with the +1 draw, especially if you can go off next turn.
Ive been messing around with a black list but I havent been able to find a playtest partner for a while to test anything new :C
Here is my new spicy black list. It aims to grind my opponent down and win via attrition or maybe just a gargadon. Or maybe I get a small faerie army going and overrun them. Bitterblossom by itself can out race its -1 damage provided the board is clear, but with Bad moon you can actually push your faeries pretty hard into the red zone.:
3 Coldsteel Heart
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
3 Brain in a Jar
2 Talisman of Indulgence
2 Talisman of Creativity
2 Dimir Signet
2 Talisman of Dominance
// 4 Creature
4 Greater Gargadon
// 14 Enchantment
4 As Foretold
3 Monastery Siege
4 Bitterblossom
3 Bad Moon
4 Glimmervoid
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Island
4 Tolaria West
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Snow-Covered Swamp
// 2 Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
// 7 Sorcery
4 Restore Balance
3 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Defense Grid
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Remand
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Thoughtseize
Another cool card I just found is Sultai Ascendancy. Anyone who has played with Mirri's Guile before can attest to the strength of this type of card having a per-turn filter effect.
For card advantage we have thirst for knowledge, fact or fiction, (my least favorite) ancestral vision.
Personally from my testing (non cascade) tutors are often times much much better than card advantage. You can spend a lot of time and mana digging for things but just drawing 1 tutor and getting what you need is elegant. From there sometimes instead of more draw I have just run more redundancy, depending. The main problem being these 'good' draw spells are very clunky mana costs, typically. We have thoughtcast but draw 2 is almost not good enough, just being +1 card advantage. Thirst for knowledge is very good, and monastery siege is as well; but they are 3 mana. The worst on a mana curve.
I did consider and make a paradoxical outcome list but I needed mox's 0 mana cost.
One of our main 'hero' cards (non cascade) is arcums astrolabe. <3 that card.
Brain is for non cascade lists that want to be as fast as possible. This deck is slow/grindy. Doenst need to win with the first balance since I can offload my manabase into artifact mana and use that for things like bontus.
I just dont really have room for every single card. So I opted towards being streamlined in my approach / gameplan. I want to control the board, maybe stick a liliana. Eventually have 0 lands (gargadon) and restore balance. And eventually win from grinding them down and winning via attrition or just a gargadon. You guys seemed to think we need more than 1 wincon so I added a few more. Even using 18 mana I still need so many of each type of card to make things work and give overlap so I can run 5-8 of a certain card instead of only 1-4. Like how I'm now running 4 As foretold with typically some number of brain with 4 tolaria west+4 balance.
Im not interested in beating every single deck. Like I said everything is meta dependent so just build what you think will work best and most consistently. Sure I'll have garbage matchups but its modern, every deck has garbage matchups. And every list I make will obviously be better vs different types of lists. Its not like I play each list Ive posted X times I havent had much time to test since mox was banned. Im giving you guys concept ideas so people can see what Im talking about: That non cascade can be made in a LOT of different ways and each way can have plenty of overlap and consistency. Then hopefully with any extra slots you can build to your meta. Our deck can be up to 5 colors with ease.
As for 'full combo' typically when I combo off Im at maybe 1 or 2 cards in hand (almost every single time) and 0 lands and 0 creatures. Either that or I didn't make it in time. This will depend on my opponent.
Honestly dude I know youre trying to help but sometimes you seem pretty condescending. Seems like youve been 100% sure my approach wont work despite presumably having never even tested using moxes or seen it work. Have you even tried to playtest non cascade at all? Idk maybe you updated your list but the last one you posted seemed both very scattered and easy to attack from many angles like borderposts being a huge target, which would explain why you seem so convinced this cant work if thats the only list youve tried in this archetype. Try to tone it down a bit man were all on the same side. And honestly if you want this deck that has huge % against all of the field why are you even here?
Astrolabe is awesome. Even just being 1 food and a cantrip is fine. Mana fixing is nice it just brings it all together and gives great consistency, whilst being 'perfect' to slot into any manacurves.
Borderposts are a huge potential weakness. I feel bad running any but were really short on options for this category outside of signets/talismans which dont give double black too well and I dont want to ping myself every time I tap for black mana. So while coldsteel is slower, it gives the color I need (prob the core color black for BB1 bontus). Borderposts giving -1 land is not always an upside, its situational. And if you cant 'shortcut' it its just worse. Def not a card Im trying to play.
Thanks mate! Yea our SB options for this list are great. Finding Ceremonious Rejection recently was great. Fk you karn! Lol
I'll leave you guys with my 'bant' list I brewed up:
4 As Foretold
3 Brain in a Jar
4 Restore Balance
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Talisman of Curiosity
3 Selesnya Signet
2 Talisman of Creativity
2 Monastery Siege
1 Thopter Spy Network
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Eladamri's Call
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Snow-Covered Island
4 Tolaria West
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Glimmervoid
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Defense Grid
1 Nature's Claim
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Venarian Glimmer
4 Remand
1 Electrodominance
3 Ceremonious Rejection
Yes I play to compete. Thats my goal of building decks and tweaking them. To improve them to compete more.
I havent run into lost legacy or bitterblossom. I have lost to extirpate once though. Should I run more threats and ways to win? Maybe, but Im not overly worried about it since gargadon does work and almost every time its not an issue. Then I can be that much more focused and consistent in my approach and not have to worry about clunky cards that arent getting me there.
Our '3 combo pieces' aren't just 4 ofs tho. Some of them can be in multiples and all of them can be fetched or drawn into with good draw spells. And sure were not winning with lifegain or w/e or on the spot but when I have a garg in play and they have 1 card in hand (maybe), its a 2 turn clock almost every single time and rarely if ever are they coming back. Maybe I have to attack liliana first so she cant -2. Either way the massive clock is ending them fast.
Youre prob right about not needing Bauble now. The main plus to this was to be thrown into gargs mouth, not even for the draw. Just the 0 mana cost that sometimes gives you a card. Maybe not needed.
Cantrips might work, havent tried them in large numbers yet. That said, you can spend a lot of time and mana spinning your wheels and still not end up with enough artifacts to feed gargadon. Which is typically my goal.. to balance then attack with gargadon on the exact same turn (which is why it end up feeling more like a combo deck to me). Simian spirit guide is the same deal. Its not an artifact and while the +1 mana is great, its fleeting. Sometimes the extra 1 mana whenever you want it might be better as just a land or just a talisman, I have found. I used to play with SSG a lot, not so much anymore. Maybe as a 1 of. Its just a tiny bit too niche or something, idk. Not quite enough power. Who knows, maybe you could be in a spot where you are running some monastery siege or fact or fiction or some random card like that where that turn-earlier spell is more gas than normal.
4 color is not a problem. Neither is splashing GW in a UR deck. I could be 5 colors easily. Theres so many cards to enable that its absurd. Do not need mox. It just helped. Really theres plenty without mox to fix mana.
Signets / talismans are phenomenal. Exactly what you want with balance. For example here is a black list Ive been cooking up:
4 Restore Balance
4 Greater Gargadon
4 As Foretold
4 Eladamri's Call
3 Bontu's Last Reckoning
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Talisman of Resilience
3 Coldsteel Heart
4 Veinfire Borderpost
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana Vess
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
1 Bitterblossom
4 Glimmervoid
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Island
4 Tolaria West
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Defense Grid
2 Imprisoned in the Moon
2 Nature's Claim
3 Assassin's Trophy
1 Electrodominance
4 Remand
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
Brother Im telling you we can approach the list in more than one way and there is enough breathing room and different cards to work with to enable many strategies.
I like very focused strategies that nuke everything. They are typically more combo than midrange or control. They will probably lose to extirpate but honestly Im not building my deck around every single card, and if I was I definitely would not be on this list because its far too reliant on moving parts and build around cards in my experience. Any creature.deck will be more focused, consistent, and (hopefully) able to combat random hate. If I was to be worried about being a high % against every single deck in the format I prob wouldnt be playing this list because its a tad bit slow. Restore Balance is a fun build around card. I see what you mean about different things but I think you misunderstand the focus of my list, which isnt to beat every single type of list. Modern is too diverse for that. Im not planning on winning vs red deck wins, and probably not storm, and I'll take a "L" to extirpate.
I promise you, youre just wrong about brain in a jar. When your goal is to balance one single time with gargadon suspended (about all of the core of every deck I make in this archetype) this card is GAS other than the single mana cost which is only truly 'costly' because of tolaria west's 3+ brains 1. Not because brain by itself is clunky. Not only that, it helps in control matchups. I have won many games off the back of people trying to get a tiny bit of value at EOT; whoops I win at instant speed since youre tapped out.
Thoughtsieze decks can be rough, but unless they are more aggro-tilted, I can compete with them and have a close matchup. And especially if my list is tuned well. To be resilient to this I need a lot of redundancy which my decks always have, and also either a lot of tutors or a lot of 'good' card draw.
We definitely can make a midrange list that is more grindy and doesnt 'need' gargadon. That said, as long as gargadon isnt straight extirpated we can still make other type of lists work. Or have just a very small handful of win-cons outside of gargadon that play more off of balance.
Wren and six I have never been even a tiny bit scared of. I just attack their face and they die in 2 turns.
I do appreciate all the feedback. Were not improving at all if we cant raise concerns and consider things.
Please drop any lists you come up with, especially non cascade ones, rough or not and we can talk about ways to tweak them.
Early turns you just jam as much mana in as possible. Playing talisman into talisman is super easy on the manabase. In my experience this results in us having plenty of mana if we want it, AND 'ramped' mana for things like Karn or Fact or Fiction (need lots of draw to feed gargadon primarily).
I have Karn in there as 2nd wincon with Ghostly prison + Balance making it very very hard for people to attack when I start disrupting mana. Karn might be better suited as another PW, but does have the small added bonus of both fetching a combo piece (brain from SB) AND making attackers if needs be later in the game.
This list also shows how easy it should be to find the colors you need using signets/talismans/artifact mana. Even with mox being gone.
So compared to my old lists its going to a bit slower, but more interactive by a tiny bit.
Trinisphere
Blood Moon
Ghostly Prison (and similar cards)
Planeswalkers
Signets/Talismans/Artifact mana
Bontu's Last Reckoning
BTW guys, while Mox Opal was a phenomenal card for us; we can still just jam signets/talismans/borderposts(my least fav)/artifact mana (pentad prism). They still do double duty with feeding gargadon, and staying around post balance. And let you play less lands total but still be very consistent with mana, even being able to breathe a LOT more with your nonbasic lands. They also enable any color combinations with relative ease.
Youre right about playing vs a really bad hate card like extirpate. Take our balance or our gargadon and its easy match, or at least should be.
Also, for a black list; bitterblossom survives balance, chump blockers for days, and feeds gargadon every turn. Interesting at least.
Heres an example of what Im talking about with artifact mana:
4 Restore Balance
3 Brain in a Jar
4 As Foretold
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Selesnya Signet
2 Talisman of Curiosity
2 Talisman of Impulse
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Eladamri's Call
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Glimmervoid
4 Tolaria West
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Brain in a Jar (Karn Fetches this)
4 Remand
3 Venarian Glimmer
2 Nature's Claim
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Electrodominance