his MF'r is grading our submissions unfairly. I want to speak to the dean.
I think I was quite fair. I asked him to pick a number he would be happy with, he picked a number that he said he wouldn't be happy with, and I don't know why.
You're making the assumption that there is a number that would make me happy with a poor card design. Unfortunately, you've neglected to consider that no number could make me like the design. Believing that there is a tipping point between enough life/not enough life to make the card good is a false dichotomy. Too low, everyone acknowledges it's trash. Too high, and some people will choose to run it, but it doesn't require skill to play or encourage fun games people want to remember. Pump the number to unrealistic heights, and I still wouldn't be happy with it - it becomes a one-card combo at that point that still doesn't secure the win (unlike Approach of the Second Sun). I want to interact or end the game, not sit behind some untouchable life wall and wait to see if my library runs out before my opponent's life total.
I play lots of cards that gain life, but I always want them to do something more.
Elite Guardmage offers 3 life, a card, and a 2/3 flying body. Kitchen Finks offers 4 life across two bodies and the potential to combo. Behemoth Sledge and Loxodon Warhammer offer pump and trample to help punch through, on top of the lifegain. Vampire Nighthawk/Vampire Lighthawk offer decent flying bodies plus deathtouch or vigilance.
Even Soul Warden/Essence Warden offer a 1/1 body should you need a chump blocker. Pelakka Wurm offers a legitimate wincon, with 7 life plus a 7/7 trampler and card draw as a consolation prize when it inevitably gets blown up (as it must unless they want you to win).
I'd rather play any of these than a card that gains more life but does nothing else.
Then I have to ask, why didn't you pick a bigger number? Like, what if you doubled what you said? If you were in a million dollar draft, would you be happy to see "gain 100 life"?
Also, does it not seem odd to you that you're finding two versions of the card equally valuable?
I don't think I viewed them as equally valuable so much as equally undesirable. I really prefer a card that advances my board, removes something from my opponent's board, or otherwise provides options/card advantage. I'd rather see Fumigate downshifted.
I mean, sure, gain 100 life and draw a card would be ridiculous, but at that point, I'd probably feel about it the way some of you feel about Loxodon Warhammer. I don't see them reasonably printing a four mana cantrip with more than 7 or 8 lifegain, and that would never be enough for me to be interested.
If you added the text "draw a card" to the same sorcery, how much life does it need to gain now so you'll play it under the same circumstances?
I was going to ask if we were adding the cantrip to the original suggestion (2WW) or the second one (WWW), but then I realized it wouldn't change my answer at all. My original number stands - 20 - and I still am not excited to draft or run the card.
Cantrips are best on cheap cards, where you can potentially cast what you draw on the same turn. Once you staple the cantrip onto a card that uses all or most of your resources for the turn, the cantrip's effect is minimal. And even if I have all the mana, I'm never going to be excited about the card. I've never had a shortage of playables when drafting, and I just can't imagine this card making the cut when I go to deckbuilding.
I have a silly thought exercise. I'm going to ask two questions, but collect answers for the first one before asking the second.
Question 1)
"There's a sorcery. 2WW, you gain ? life
What does ? have to be so that if it was in your pool, you would probably play it in your average midrange deck?"
Notice that this question isn't asking if you would cube such a card. But let's say you're playing some lunatic's cube and this was in your sealed pool. Also your goal is to win a million american dollars at this particular tournament, so you're putting this card if and only if you think it will help you win. What's the number?
Try to answer without scrolling down and seeing other people's answers. Or if you want to be extra noble, put your own answer in spoiler tags
In general, I have a bias against any card that only gains life and won't even run them in dedicated lifegain constructed decks. If it doesn't advance my board or affect my opponent's board or at least give me a body to flicker/attack/chump-block with, I don't want it. I think it stems back to a game about 20 years ago where I pulled an infinite lifegain combo and selected 5 billion as my arbitrarily large number to end the loop; I then proceeded to die still with 5 billion life when I ran out of cards and drew from an empty library because I was playing a 60-card deck against a 300-card deck (some weird prismatic highlander deck worth 50x-100x what my deck was worth).
So for the lifegain-only sorcery, I can tell you no number would make me play it in a constructed deck.
For draft, I suppose if it gained 20 life I would consider it, but even then, I wouldn't ever be excited to play the card. It just doesn't do anything interesting or affect the board in any way. And it still doesn't guarantee a win. In fact, I can imagine plenty of board states where that lifegain is just a 1-2 turn speedbump.
I am intrigued to go back now and see everyone else's answers.
EDIT - huh, I thought people would think my number was ridiculous, so I kept it conservative. I'm actually glad to see it tied for the lowest. There definitely seems to be a consensus regarding how favorable/unfavorable this design would be.
Next, here are some rules text that will be showing up on cards:
• “If a permanent entering the battlefield causes a triggered ability of a permanent you control to trigger, that ability triggers an additional time.”
...
• “it produces three times as much of that mana instead.”
They really need to stop doing this. Sure, there have been some fun cards that double and triple things, but where does it stop? It's getting ridiculous how often they do this lately.
For a graveyard synergy deck would you prefer the exact search of Vile Entomber or the constant mill of Mindwrack Harpy that also mill your opp? I think I only have space for one.
Personally not a fan of either, but I think I'd compare pros/cons including how they function outside of graveyard synergy. Vile Entomber searches for and bins exactly the card you want but is really only good for that ability, as a 4 mana 2/2 deathtouch is way overcosted. If you don't have a reanimation spell in hand, it's not a very good card. Mindwrack Harpy offers less control, potentially milling away things you'd rather have in hand and/or whiffing on getting the right stuff in your graveyard, and while 3 power flying isn't amazing for 4 mana, it can at least offer a more aggressive alternative.
I'm running Mirran banesplitter which you're missing, but I've never seriously considered this archetype.
Too parasitic. I could run some black sac outlet in a deck without a reassembling skeleton analog, but Kemba Kha Regent absolutely needs 2 or more specific cards in the deck to have a chance at working.
Also anything that cares about modified creatures should be on your list
I can definitely see the too parasitic aspect. There are certainly equipment that are worth running on their own, but most of the signpost creatures that care about equipment don't really do a lot without equipment.
I had totally forgotten about modified (only ever played one card with it), but after looking at the options for peasant, I can't really see any worth playing. Maybe I could stretch for Ambitious Assault?
Cruel Somnophage looked promising until I realized it's never going to be big in my Umbris deck. I guess it's still a trigger for 2 mana, though.
Moonshaker Cavalry is nuts. Flying is better than Craterhoof's trample, but I guess that's offset by being eight mana in white rather than green (ramp) and lacking haste for itself.
What does everyone think? Has the archetype reached critical mass yet? Is it still short?
And importantly, how many slots would we need to dedicate to make it a viable draft archetype in each cube size? 360? 450? 540? 720+?
I see a problem with good colorless equipment getting picked up by random players while dedicated Boros cards may be considered dead for anyone not drafting the archetype.
Yedora, Grave Gardener
I can’t think of any way to abuse this (but if someone does, please let me know!)
Morph. A cube with a heavy morph component would love this card as a way to recur and reset morph creatures over and over. I just don't know of anyone who has that as a legit archetype.
Kemba, Kha Regent
I am ordering a copy of this card for if I ever decide to run a equipment/artifact theme in my cube. However with the recent release of Éowyn, Lady of Rohan I am not sure which I like more. Éowyn is better if you have no equipments in play or if you want to equip something other than her, but Kemba is stronger when you do. I guess it depends on how aggro your equipment theme is. The more aggro the better Éowyn becomes compared to Kemba.
Akiri, Fearless Voyager
If you support an equipment theme in white/red I think this is the second best Boros card for that. I would only rate Reyav, Master Smith above it.
We've certainly been getting more options for this as an archetype. I've never really considered it for my own cube, but I'm starting to wonder how many cards I would need to really make it viable. Maybe I'll necro the old Boros Equipment thread and see if we can get some new discussion.
Okay, now this is a fun game. I'm going to guess what those are.
I know Sad Robot, Superman, Tim, Prime Time, and Gary. (I actually really dislike the name gary, but that's probably because for some reason I spell that color "grey".)
I dislike it as well, but grey is the non-American spelling.
grEy is from England.
grAy is from America.
Wow, that's a lot of downshifts. Some are pretty exciting, too, as cards I play in Commander (Yahenni and Gonti in particular). I'll have to look over the full spoiler this weekend to decide what I'm adding.
Angel of Despair may have recently been outclassed, but it will remain my favorite card - awesome art and a powerful ETB ability in colors than allow it to be recurred either by blinking or through reanimation, all stapled to a big flying body. What's not to love?
I play lots of cards that gain life, but I always want them to do something more.
Elite Guardmage offers 3 life, a card, and a 2/3 flying body.
Kitchen Finks offers 4 life across two bodies and the potential to combo.
Behemoth Sledge and Loxodon Warhammer offer pump and trample to help punch through, on top of the lifegain.
Vampire Nighthawk/Vampire Lighthawk offer decent flying bodies plus deathtouch or vigilance.
Even Soul Warden/Essence Warden offer a 1/1 body should you need a chump blocker.
Pelakka Wurm offers a legitimate wincon, with 7 life plus a 7/7 trampler and card draw as a consolation prize when it inevitably gets blown up (as it must unless they want you to win).
I'd rather play any of these than a card that gains more life but does nothing else.
I mean, sure, gain 100 life and draw a card would be ridiculous, but at that point, I'd probably feel about it the way some of you feel about Loxodon Warhammer. I don't see them reasonably printing a four mana cantrip with more than 7 or 8 lifegain, and that would never be enough for me to be interested.
Cantrips are best on cheap cards, where you can potentially cast what you draw on the same turn. Once you staple the cantrip onto a card that uses all or most of your resources for the turn, the cantrip's effect is minimal. And even if I have all the mana, I'm never going to be excited about the card. I've never had a shortage of playables when drafting, and I just can't imagine this card making the cut when I go to deckbuilding.
So for the lifegain-only sorcery, I can tell you no number would make me play it in a constructed deck.
For draft, I suppose if it gained 20 life I would consider it, but even then, I wouldn't ever be excited to play the card. It just doesn't do anything interesting or affect the board in any way. And it still doesn't guarantee a win. In fact, I can imagine plenty of board states where that lifegain is just a 1-2 turn speedbump.
EDIT - huh, I thought people would think my number was ridiculous, so I kept it conservative. I'm actually glad to see it tied for the lowest. There definitely seems to be a consensus regarding how favorable/unfavorable this design would be.
Vile Entomber searches for and bins exactly the card you want but is really only good for that ability, as a 4 mana 2/2 deathtouch is way overcosted. If you don't have a reanimation spell in hand, it's not a very good card.
Mindwrack Harpy offers less control, potentially milling away things you'd rather have in hand and/or whiffing on getting the right stuff in your graveyard, and while 3 power flying isn't amazing for 4 mana, it can at least offer a more aggressive alternative.
I had totally forgotten about modified (only ever played one card with it), but after looking at the options for peasant, I can't really see any worth playing. Maybe I could stretch for Ambitious Assault?
Tough Cookie isn't great. Two foods for two mana, and one is an artifact bear. I don't really see anyone getting excited about this.
Cruel Somnophage looked promising until I realized it's never going to be big in my Umbris deck. I guess it's still a trigger for 2 mana, though.
Moonshaker Cavalry is nuts. Flying is better than Craterhoof's trample, but I guess that's offset by being eight mana in white rather than green (ramp) and lacking haste for itself.
Akiri, Fearless Voyager
Éowyn, Lady of Rohan
Kemba, Kha Regent
Barrow-Blade
Beamtown Beatstick
Bladehold War-Whip
Citizen's Crowbar
Forebear's Blade
Greatsword of Tyr
Livewire Lash
Kor Halberd
Rabbit Battery
Simian Sling
Thran Power Suit
Any others I've missed?
What does everyone think? Has the archetype reached critical mass yet? Is it still short?
And importantly, how many slots would we need to dedicate to make it a viable draft archetype in each cube size? 360? 450? 540? 720+?
I see a problem with good colorless equipment getting picked up by random players while dedicated Boros cards may be considered dead for anyone not drafting the archetype.
We've certainly been getting more options for this as an archetype. I've never really considered it for my own cube, but I'm starting to wonder how many cards I would need to really make it viable. Maybe I'll necro the old Boros Equipment thread and see if we can get some new discussion.
grEy is from England.
grAy is from America.
Tim comes from Tim the Enchanter in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Apparently someone thought they looked similar? I don't see the resembalce.The Mike/Trike combo is Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion for infinite damage.
Skittles = Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Cocoa Puffs (or Kokopuffs) = Kokusho, the Evening Star
Sword of the Anime = Sword of the Animist (which is an especially dumb nickname as it doesn't shorten the syllables at all)
I had never heard Darcy before; how did it get that name? I have heard Mom and Stepmom. Never heard the Temple one, either.
The most used nicknames are probably Gary, Mike/Trike, Steve, Tim, Skittles, Sad Robot, Prime Time, Scooze, Superman, etc.
I personally don't use nicknames for cards, with the exception of Cocoa Puffs and Skittles. I especially hate "Sword of the Anime."
-Rishkar, Peema Renegade
-Yahenni, Undying Partisan
-Gonti, Lord of Luxury
-Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
This brings me to 15 legendaries out of 229 creatures (about 6.5%). Cast Down may be slipping in targets, but it's still pretty good.
Also, I'll probably swap out Slaughter the Strong for Kirtar's Wrath.