hello every one , recently played with the great creator build in a tournament at my local store
i reached top 8, lost by a grixis delver due to he was using boom/bast as away to defeat tron ,also i drew poorly
i want 4-0-1 at the 5 round swings
2-0 vs deaths shadow(big karn and Ugin were enough)
2-0 vs Bg midrange ( even though i drew like crazy big karn and ugin sealed the deal)
2-0 vs Great Creator tron mirror (game 1 got advantage with my early quarter and turn 5 ulamog end the game, game 2 made al lock out of new karn-crusible-quarter)
2-1 vs Spirits ( was though game drew poorly and didnt expect lavinia , my body was ready for damping shpere , but at the game 2 cards had shine blast zone and ugin)
ID with an other mirror
my conclusion from this event is that most of the matches not even all i didnt need the new karn to win my games i didnt even drew him expect from game 2 mirror at round 3
also it was really hard for me to sideboard in the match ups because of the sb being full of one off random artifacts
i even need a dismember against spirits where i just couldnt do a thing against lavinia
i might go back to the traditional build where my sideboard is more wide in the meta and more easy for me as i know better to sb with
last thing at my fnm's i didnt feel fun playing the new karn and make a 2 card combo with lattice , i dont know i might not be that kind of guy but i couldnt feel it that new karn fits in the deck from my point of view
thats all would like to hear your thoughts too peace !!
I like the way you think. Traditional is the better version of the deck - it's actually amazing to me how much traction the Great Creator builds have gained, though I certainly don't blame people for trying it out.
If you're asking about my list, the main bad matchup is G Tron. It's a tough one - there's really no silver bullet to shore it up, but Great Creator's static is good and you can always go Coating into Lattice.
Humans is traditionally a bad matchup but with 3 Contortion, 3 Dismember, 3 All Is Dust in the 75 along with a Torpor Orb to fetch it feels fine now.
Dredge can also be difficult which is why you see Leylines.
Affinity used to be really bad but Great Creator is a game changer there.
Yeah I've been running it on MTGO lately and have had good success. Had a streak of 4-1,4-1,5-0 in Comp leagues recently with roughly this list. Unlike most people I'm off Chalice completely. It's not very good in the meta right now with Dredge and Humans being 2 of the top decks and with Burn and Shadow being on a downswing. Also now with Great Creator we can fetch Trinisphere which has a similar effect to Chalice. I tested Ugin, the Ineffable and it was fun/powerful but ultimately not what we want to be doing I think. The existing 6/7 drops are better against the field.
People are way overestimating how good Great Creator is in Tron. There is a very real cost in including him and his accompanying wishboard in terms of the cuts you have to make, and it ultimately doesn't improve the deck's matchups against the field - in fact I think it actually makes them slightly worse. There's a reason the deck hasn't changed in over 2 years - because it already has everything it needs against the field. The Great Creator package isn't providing anything more powerful on balance - it's just a different angle of attack. Most people are running it now because it's the new hotness but I think as the hype dies down a lot of people will end up back on the traditional build. I'm firmly there already. So no, Great Creator is not pushing Tron over the top.
Also, you guys keep referencing Witchbane Orb against Titanshift. Can't they just Valakut all of our threats to death?
I think in most cases they'll just concede to Witchbane in game 1, assuming they don't have a random Rec Sage or are playing the Woodfall/Breach version. If not, we just Lattice or Ulamog them.
Lol yes well fortunately very few decks in the format can actually utilize it. Red Prison is one of them but that deck still has fundamental issues that Karn doesn't solve so I don't see it being a large part of the meta anytime soon.
man you said what i was thinking. losing removal like “contortion” and wail hurts a bit but im also camp that we are just scratching the surface of an ideal 75 with karn. It’s very possible we keep the wish board to 4-6 slots. Lattice is really good, i cant stress how quick that ends a game. if you look at the recent 5-0 list it ran 3 tks, maybe we should do the same? its refreshing though to have something to try and innovate with
The problem with that one is there's no Thragtusks.
What do you do against Grixis Shadow with no Thragtusks (and no Dismembers!)? You're relying so heavily on going GC into Bridge and hoping they don't have counters or artifact destruction, of which they have plenty post-board.
You have a similar problem against Burn. You have the ability to steal game 1's with your wishboard if you can get on the board fast enough (not a given by any means), but relying on that in post-board games is extremely shaky considering how much artifact destruction they bring in.
Thragtusk is an important card against Dredge as well, plus most GC lists (that one included) are shaving graveyard hate to fit everything in so this matchup almost always gets worse.
I wonder about the BG matchup as well. Thragtusk is our best sideboard card there. I guess you could argue that Great Creator makes up for the loss of Tusk because it's a low-curve card but the problem is it doesn't impact the board the turn it comes down. A lot of the time it's going to draw you a card (probably a good one, to be fair) and then just get eaten by one of their beaters. Maybe this one is close to a wash; I'd need to test it more.
I could go on but I wanna stress again that I don't think it matters which cards you take out to accommodate the wishboard. I think you lose some percentage points no matter what. There's a reason why this deck has looked the same for 2+ years - because it already has everything it needs against the field, and the wishboard doesn't improve on that.
Sounds like a good time. Great Creator is certainly tons of fun and breathes new life into the deck, but I wonder how you arrived at the conclusion that it's a significantly better build against the field. I've been testing it a lot and I did a comparison here with a GC list pretty close to yours, and came to the opposite conclusion:
In a lot of the writeups in which I see people singing the praises of the wishboard, I see very little if any discussion about the cuts they had to make in order to accommodate it. Most of the lists I've seen drop all the spot removal and Thought-Knot Seers, for example, and this creates a set of holes that the wishboard can't adequately cover. Or at the very least, that it doesn't improve upon compared to a traditional list containing those cards. I still haven't seen a GC list that offers us more percentage points against the field than a traditional one, and frankly, barring significant metagame changes, I don't think one exists.
All this said, it's pretty close. It's close enough to as good that a lot of people will do it anyway, because like I said, the card and its toolbox aspect is very fun, and it's been so long since this deck has gotten anything to be excited about. So I do expect to see at least some people playing it going forward. And there is one scenario where I could see it being "correct" to play a Great Creator build, and this is if London sticks - Tron will be considered to be one of the very best decks, so there will be a lot of mirrors, and Great Creator is a mirror breaking card to a certain extent. But even then, when you consider how much of the field it would be (not that much), it might be a stretch.
Hola all, I tested for a few hours tonight on mtgo, going 9-3 overall. I didn't like newugin and I cut him immediately, I went with this list as a starting point:
So the Colossus was LOL moment, I'm sure it should be Witchbane Orb or a Chalice. The deck is so good now, decision trees, it makes me feel like I'm playing a new arch type. I have won many games off of Lattice + Karn, it's crazy. I beat Storm on T3 by landing new karn, and nabbing trinisphere. I'm not sure what the correct 75 is but, it's nice to be grinding modern again.
Glad to see you testing it. Your list looks a bit wonky though - only 57 cards and no Sylvan Scryings?
Yeah, I've been chatting with the pilot of that list. He actually won 4 Tron mirrors and 1 GDS for that 5-0, lol. I'm still not a fan of Newgin, and that list has far too few early interactive spells. Gonna have a real tough time with Dredge for example.
Yeah Bridge is not often going to be the play against Dredge - their creatures are generally too small and plus they can just Grudge it post-board.
The fact that Bridge is a turn 3 play with GC + Tron makes it a better option than O-Stone in many scenarios, including against a fast Awoken Horror which is the #1 way we lose to Phoenix.
It is great against Valakut, but I actually think the most important application of Bridge is stopping the other Titan out of Amulet. It's one of the top 10 decks right now, and one that we don't really have a lot of other specific answers for. There is Torpor Orb, which is also good against Humans, but we have better options there and Bridge does more in other matchups. Plus, if we have GC in play, Amulet can't even Engineered Explosives away the Bridge, so they generally can't remove it, in game 1 anyway.
Honestly I havent had any real opportunities to grab Trinisphere yet. But in theory it's good against Phoenix, Burn, Storm, Shadow, etc, as the case my be.
Humans is traditionally a bad matchup but with 3 Contortion, 3 Dismember, 3 All Is Dust in the 75 along with a Torpor Orb to fetch it feels fine now.
Dredge can also be difficult which is why you see Leylines.
Affinity used to be really bad but Great Creator is a game changer there.
The problem with that one is there's no Thragtusks.
What do you do against Grixis Shadow with no Thragtusks (and no Dismembers!)? You're relying so heavily on going GC into Bridge and hoping they don't have counters or artifact destruction, of which they have plenty post-board.
You have a similar problem against Burn. You have the ability to steal game 1's with your wishboard if you can get on the board fast enough (not a given by any means), but relying on that in post-board games is extremely shaky considering how much artifact destruction they bring in.
Thragtusk is an important card against Dredge as well, plus most GC lists (that one included) are shaving graveyard hate to fit everything in so this matchup almost always gets worse.
I wonder about the BG matchup as well. Thragtusk is our best sideboard card there. I guess you could argue that Great Creator makes up for the loss of Tusk because it's a low-curve card but the problem is it doesn't impact the board the turn it comes down. A lot of the time it's going to draw you a card (probably a good one, to be fair) and then just get eaten by one of their beaters. Maybe this one is close to a wash; I'd need to test it more.
I could go on but I wanna stress again that I don't think it matters which cards you take out to accommodate the wishboard. I think you lose some percentage points no matter what. There's a reason why this deck has looked the same for 2+ years - because it already has everything it needs against the field, and the wishboard doesn't improve on that.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qtB_hHSIApnRkTO3a17PNzzBpiNcc2sRdjth3nZgOt0/edit?usp=sharing
In a lot of the writeups in which I see people singing the praises of the wishboard, I see very little if any discussion about the cuts they had to make in order to accommodate it. Most of the lists I've seen drop all the spot removal and Thought-Knot Seers, for example, and this creates a set of holes that the wishboard can't adequately cover. Or at the very least, that it doesn't improve upon compared to a traditional list containing those cards. I still haven't seen a GC list that offers us more percentage points against the field than a traditional one, and frankly, barring significant metagame changes, I don't think one exists.
All this said, it's pretty close. It's close enough to as good that a lot of people will do it anyway, because like I said, the card and its toolbox aspect is very fun, and it's been so long since this deck has gotten anything to be excited about. So I do expect to see at least some people playing it going forward. And there is one scenario where I could see it being "correct" to play a Great Creator build, and this is if London sticks - Tron will be considered to be one of the very best decks, so there will be a lot of mirrors, and Great Creator is a mirror breaking card to a certain extent. But even then, when you consider how much of the field it would be (not that much), it might be a stretch.
The fact that Bridge is a turn 3 play with GC + Tron makes it a better option than O-Stone in many scenarios, including against a fast Awoken Horror which is the #1 way we lose to Phoenix.
It is great against Valakut, but I actually think the most important application of Bridge is stopping the other Titan out of Amulet. It's one of the top 10 decks right now, and one that we don't really have a lot of other specific answers for. There is Torpor Orb, which is also good against Humans, but we have better options there and Bridge does more in other matchups. Plus, if we have GC in play, Amulet can't even Engineered Explosives away the Bridge, so they generally can't remove it, in game 1 anyway.