@Grape
I'm sorry but why are the wagons garbage imo?
Why are you asking me if they are bad in your opinion?
But to answer the question you're trying to ask it's because they're largely being led by people I don't trust making cases I don't believe. I agree with targeting but not reasons or make up by and large. Plus I barely have anyone at greater than rand to be scum. I just have a huge clump at about random this game.
@DV That's not accurate. I was spectacularly wrong about tom and you were right. But at the same stage we were arguing about Kpaca and GJ I was correct and you were wrong. When I did the reset you were praising I changed on those two to be incorrect. But at the stage you're telling me how wrong I was and referring to I was more correct than you were.
Maybe he is trying to go deep, but there are far too many wolfie players to even consider. Start looking at bodies and we'll see where DV lies.
that's literally my point. I'm not scum reading him. I don't want to try and kill him today. I'm just not town reading him. I even said "If Rhand flips scum then we'll talk" so I was already doing what you just implored me to do. I find the idea of him and Rhand being buddies implausible. Rhand is likely to die either today or tomorrow so I'll reevaluate DV then.
Next you're absolutely right that KJ pulled the trigger on outing his peek on me too early. I wasn't under real pressure yet. But I don't have control over that. And my saying if you want to play that was about verbiage and hedging, not about the decision to out or not. And you're correct that hedging is helpful but it is not easy for me to stop doing that. It's something I've worked on in real life and not made much progress there so probably not going to have much in game till I do.
Anyway if it's an MU meme I'll accept that. It wasn't that part that bothered me so much as the wanting him to be a PR because you were town reading him. I generally want the people I can't figure out to be PRs.
I'm always suspicious of people that just refuse to town read me.
Going back to this the main things you've done this game are defend EtR, push Tubba, wall with Mindreaver, defend KA, and push Rhand. I disagree with you on like 2.5 of those and agree with you on your main thing (pushing Rhand). None of it was done in a fashion I found particularly townie and I found your push on Tubba particularly dubious. If you think you've earned town reads I don't know what you're thinking.
For someone showing a particularly nuanced reading of bad vs scummy on KA you were using bad as scummy as a hammer against Tubba and it doesn't sit right to me.
@GJ so now you want me to read you based on meta? After spending half this game railing against meta reads? Come on man.
As to the rest of your post fair enough. I can appreciate your frustration if you're town. I see what you're doing as wolf motivated because even though I haven't seen you do it I know skilled scum love to manipulate around the edges. And if the PR thing isn't a joke I didn't get it makes zero sense as that's the worst reason to want someone to be a PR. And discrediting me calling something self aware by referring to it as shameless is like saying "are you crazy my basement isn't wet, it's damp?" It's the same thing just a matter of perspective and degree.
As for the confidence of my language that's not going to change based on me being confirmed town or not. What will change and what has changed is my just going for it and not self filtering. I'm not trying at all for town reads and saying what I'm actually thinking whether or not it's supported, persuasive, or popular. Rather than trying to lead people (which given my lack of confidence in reads is a bad idea) I'm trying to instead be an open book and be a sounding board for anyone to bounce ideas off.
If that's not how you'd play it that's your prerogative.
Anyway if this doesn't go anywhere I'll consider another grenade at tom but most likely join either the EtR or Rhand trains. Anyway your point about why would you bother butting heads with me is well received.
@DV I don't care. There isn't a compelling reason to town read you at this stage. If Rhand flips scum then we'll talk. Till then you are in the mushy middle.
So I'm useless because I'm not trying to use my influence to swing a wagon I believe in but also because I'm voting a wagon that isn't happening. Uh-huh. Sure.
Anyway I think you're scum. I'm voting with my other main wolf read because I think you're scummier than he is. I am using my status to try to persuade other people of your scumminess. If I haven't by the time we have 24 hours left I will consolidate onto another wagon.
You pointed to my saying that my read on you isn't much above a random read as evidence that I don't believe in my vote and that it is crap. But that's the strongest scum read I have. You have said so many things that don't make sense if you're town. For example this post makes no sense from town you.
unvote
With the claims matching, t/t is the most likely option because I don’t think shadow would create a win more situation.
@tau: do you also not know what ability you can unlock?
Grape / Kami / tubba? / ?
@DV: don’t go and tunnel me and then say stuff like “not sure who was townreading him”. You’re only reading my posts it seems?
There wasn't a vote but there was a drastic change in suspicion with no justification. Over basically nothing. @Rhand basically even though you didn't vote the timing of your suspicion of Tubba is suspect and makes me think you could be scum.
Grape your play is dangerously close to reminding me of PlayStation.
I don't know what you need to do to reset, but I'd do what ever that is.
It took flips. Also my worldview is pretty similar to yours for you to be declaring me off in cuckoo land. We're different in a big way on like 2 people and just have our low town reads to scum reads ordered differently.
So, 4-3 technically. I moved Etr down because I liked that he fought back, acknowledged my point and tried to make a post. Hell, if he continues that, I might even town read the slot, which would be ******* stoked.
Again I'm catching tons of shade/pleas to play better and your bottom 7 is the same as mine with Tubba, Mind, and LnG slightly higher in mine and you in my PoE. So yeah given the relative similarity of our kill lists I'm confused why your main reaction to me is:
Quote from GJ »
Instead, in this same world, now you and grape are probable nk targets, and honestly, from what I have seen this day, turned Grape ridiculously lazy who doesn't think he needs to post to make points because he is lock town until you flip otherwise.
Which is silly because I've obviously not been lazy. And my being a NK target should be a great thing from your POV given that you think my votes are ****. The level of frustration you and DV have with my play for how similar our views are just doesn't make sense. Which is why I think you're scum. Your perspective doesn't feel townie here.
@Grape: you want to vote me for my Tubba vote? I never voted Tubba.
What is it with this game and people thinking I’m doing stuff that I’m not doing?
You're right you never voted him. Just glommed on suspicion when a flash counterwagon coalesced out of nothing. Point was factually incorrect but idea behind it stands.
Tubba Fett
Grapefruit21
KamikazeArchon
Reaverb Tau
Lastwhisper
EtR
Rodemy
tomsloger
D_V
Vaimes
M1ndreaver
Killjoy
Rhand
Gentleman Johnny
LnGrrrR
vezokpiraka
I'm Town, KJ is town because of the spec chat read, general positive activity, and his defense of me, Vaimes is town for the last few pages, particularly his back and forth with LW, and LW is town for tom's PR read, his leaning into it, and activity level.
Grape
KJ, Vaimes, LW
Tau is probably town for the way he handled the gambit. It's almost too bizarre to make as scum, and his scum game is strong enough I wouldn't expect him to take such a high risk gambit. Vez might be town because Riku looked to be town!Riku before he vanished. Vez's catch up also felt pure and his frustration with me felt genuine. Tubba has felt like the completely relaxed town!tubba I've grown familiar with. It's possible he's learned to imitate that as scum but by and large his targetting has felt right to me and his 1BADPOST^tm is more a bad town post than a scummy post in my eyes (and very obviously so). Rodemy hasn't been super active of late but his jumpiness and scattershot targeting early had the correct feel to it. Agendaless as some would say.
Grape
KJ, Vaimes, LW
Tau, Vez, Tubba, Rod
I'm kind of out of town reads at this point. I've had various stale reads on Mind, Rhand, Tom, EtR, and DV that I don't believe anymore. And 7 is too many people to really rely on this sort of method to produce a PoE. On the upside however I don't believe that DV and Mind are ever aligned and I'd be mildly surprised if Rhand and GJ are.
Of my remaining group (Mind, Rhand, Tom, EtR, DV, GJ, KA, LnGrrrR) DV is probably the towniest on a gut level, but it's really not a read I'm confident making. I'm never going to vote him today but he's basically right at the null point for me. I really strongly disagree with any strong reads on LnG. His main characteristic has been his absentee nature. I liked his punch back after Tau's wall but not enough that I'm going to move him out of the null tier. I'm also not interested in voting mind today because I'm stubborn and reluctant to give up my stale read even though I know I should (the end of his DV slapfight reads like a CFTWR vent).
Grape
KJ, Vaimes, LW
Tau, Vez, Tubba, Rod
DV, LnG, Mind
Rhand, Tom, EtR, KA, and GJ are definitely not the scum team in an subset of 4 but they are basically the only people I'm willing to vote today. Rhand I'm willing to vote over his Tubba voting. There isn't much else that strikes me poorly but I really dislike his vote on that wagon. Tom's early game felt completely agenda and positionally scummy. I've tried to explain it like 4 times now and it never makes sense. He just feels like scum for the way he's handled his scum reads. EtR is basically just to resolve the gambit. I think there is roughly a 15% chance EtR messed up and believed Tau and has been attempting to spill wine ever since. He has responded well and his not crumpling suggests he is town (because man would it be hard to keep trying after that as scum) but I'm not confident locking in a read there. KA is the less townie version of Tubba and LnG. Reading his ISO I don't get a strong town vibe but I also get the arguments people have made about this stubborn single-mindedness being indicative of his town game. Not my favorite target for the day but not the worst. GJ is my preferred choice but doing so feels awful given tom is my strongest gut scum read and he's pushing this hard. GJ's catch up has felt wrong and he's just had a few small mindset things that feel off (see his reaction to Wisp being a PR, his banter with me over set up speculation, and his poking at me over voting with scum reads). My vote is sticking there but it's also not much more confidence than random.
Why are you asking me if they are bad in your opinion?
But to answer the question you're trying to ask it's because they're largely being led by people I don't trust making cases I don't believe. I agree with targeting but not reasons or make up by and large. Plus I barely have anyone at greater than rand to be scum. I just have a huge clump at about random this game.
Next you're absolutely right that KJ pulled the trigger on outing his peek on me too early. I wasn't under real pressure yet. But I don't have control over that. And my saying if you want to play that was about verbiage and hedging, not about the decision to out or not. And you're correct that hedging is helpful but it is not easy for me to stop doing that. It's something I've worked on in real life and not made much progress there so probably not going to have much in game till I do.
Anyway if it's an MU meme I'll accept that. It wasn't that part that bothered me so much as the wanting him to be a PR because you were town reading him. I generally want the people I can't figure out to be PRs.
Going back to this the main things you've done this game are defend EtR, push Tubba, wall with Mindreaver, defend KA, and push Rhand. I disagree with you on like 2.5 of those and agree with you on your main thing (pushing Rhand). None of it was done in a fashion I found particularly townie and I found your push on Tubba particularly dubious. If you think you've earned town reads I don't know what you're thinking.
For someone showing a particularly nuanced reading of bad vs scummy on KA you were using bad as scummy as a hammer against Tubba and it doesn't sit right to me.
As to the rest of your post fair enough. I can appreciate your frustration if you're town. I see what you're doing as wolf motivated because even though I haven't seen you do it I know skilled scum love to manipulate around the edges. And if the PR thing isn't a joke I didn't get it makes zero sense as that's the worst reason to want someone to be a PR. And discrediting me calling something self aware by referring to it as shameless is like saying "are you crazy my basement isn't wet, it's damp?" It's the same thing just a matter of perspective and degree.
As for the confidence of my language that's not going to change based on me being confirmed town or not. What will change and what has changed is my just going for it and not self filtering. I'm not trying at all for town reads and saying what I'm actually thinking whether or not it's supported, persuasive, or popular. Rather than trying to lead people (which given my lack of confidence in reads is a bad idea) I'm trying to instead be an open book and be a sounding board for anyone to bounce ideas off.
If that's not how you'd play it that's your prerogative.
Anyway if this doesn't go anywhere I'll consider another grenade at tom but most likely join either the EtR or Rhand trains. Anyway your point about why would you bother butting heads with me is well received.
@DV I don't care. There isn't a compelling reason to town read you at this stage. If Rhand flips scum then we'll talk. Till then you are in the mushy middle.
Anyway I think you're scum. I'm voting with my other main wolf read because I think you're scummier than he is. I am using my status to try to persuade other people of your scumminess. If I haven't by the time we have 24 hours left I will consolidate onto another wagon.
You pointed to my saying that my read on you isn't much above a random read as evidence that I don't believe in my vote and that it is crap. But that's the strongest scum read I have. You have said so many things that don't make sense if you're town. For example this post makes no sense from town you.
It's weirdly self aware for you and doesn't add up from what I'd expect from town you.
Similarly I just don't understand what town you is doing egging on DV here. Your later explanations don't make sense to me.
@KJ I read your Tubba case. I didn't find it compelling.
This is Rhand after Tubba became a throw in scum read du jour. With no mention of Tubba in between the two. There wasn't a vote but there was a drastic change in suspicion with no justification. Over basically nothing. @Rhand basically even though you didn't vote the timing of your suspicion of Tubba is suspect and makes me think you could be scum.
It took flips. Also my worldview is pretty similar to yours for you to be declaring me off in cuckoo land. We're different in a big way on like 2 people and just have our low town reads to scum reads ordered differently.
Again I'm catching tons of shade/pleas to play better and your bottom 7 is the same as mine with Tubba, Mind, and LnG slightly higher in mine and you in my PoE. So yeah given the relative similarity of our kill lists I'm confused why your main reaction to me is:
Which is silly because I've obviously not been lazy. And my being a NK target should be a great thing from your POV given that you think my votes are ****. The level of frustration you and DV have with my play for how similar our views are just doesn't make sense. Which is why I think you're scum. Your perspective doesn't feel townie here.
You're right you never voted him. Just glommed on suspicion when a flash counterwagon coalesced out of nothing. Point was factually incorrect but idea behind it stands.
KJ, Vaimes, LW
Tau, Vez, Tubba, Rod
DV, LnG, Mind
Rhand, EtR, KA
Tom, GJ
Grapefruit21
KamikazeArchon
Reaverb Tau
Lastwhisper
EtR
Rodemy
tomsloger
D_V
Vaimes
M1ndreaver
Killjoy
Rhand
Gentleman Johnny
LnGrrrR
vezokpiraka
Grape
KJ, Vaimes, LW
Tau is probably town for the way he handled the gambit. It's almost too bizarre to make as scum, and his scum game is strong enough I wouldn't expect him to take such a high risk gambit. Vez might be town because Riku looked to be town!Riku before he vanished. Vez's catch up also felt pure and his frustration with me felt genuine. Tubba has felt like the completely relaxed town!tubba I've grown familiar with. It's possible he's learned to imitate that as scum but by and large his targetting has felt right to me and his 1BADPOST^tm is more a bad town post than a scummy post in my eyes (and very obviously so). Rodemy hasn't been super active of late but his jumpiness and scattershot targeting early had the correct feel to it. Agendaless as some would say.
Grape
KJ, Vaimes, LW
Tau, Vez, Tubba, Rod
I'm kind of out of town reads at this point. I've had various stale reads on Mind, Rhand, Tom, EtR, and DV that I don't believe anymore. And 7 is too many people to really rely on this sort of method to produce a PoE. On the upside however I don't believe that DV and Mind are ever aligned and I'd be mildly surprised if Rhand and GJ are.
Of my remaining group (Mind, Rhand, Tom, EtR, DV, GJ, KA, LnGrrrR) DV is probably the towniest on a gut level, but it's really not a read I'm confident making. I'm never going to vote him today but he's basically right at the null point for me. I really strongly disagree with any strong reads on LnG. His main characteristic has been his absentee nature. I liked his punch back after Tau's wall but not enough that I'm going to move him out of the null tier. I'm also not interested in voting mind today because I'm stubborn and reluctant to give up my stale read even though I know I should (the end of his DV slapfight reads like a CFTWR vent).
Grape
KJ, Vaimes, LW
Tau, Vez, Tubba, Rod
DV, LnG, Mind
Rhand, Tom, EtR, KA, and GJ are definitely not the scum team in an subset of 4 but they are basically the only people I'm willing to vote today. Rhand I'm willing to vote over his Tubba voting. There isn't much else that strikes me poorly but I really dislike his vote on that wagon. Tom's early game felt completely agenda and positionally scummy. I've tried to explain it like 4 times now and it never makes sense. He just feels like scum for the way he's handled his scum reads. EtR is basically just to resolve the gambit. I think there is roughly a 15% chance EtR messed up and believed Tau and has been attempting to spill wine ever since. He has responded well and his not crumpling suggests he is town (because man would it be hard to keep trying after that as scum) but I'm not confident locking in a read there. KA is the less townie version of Tubba and LnG. Reading his ISO I don't get a strong town vibe but I also get the arguments people have made about this stubborn single-mindedness being indicative of his town game. Not my favorite target for the day but not the worst. GJ is my preferred choice but doing so feels awful given tom is my strongest gut scum read and he's pushing this hard. GJ's catch up has felt wrong and he's just had a few small mindset things that feel off (see his reaction to Wisp being a PR, his banter with me over set up speculation, and his poking at me over voting with scum reads). My vote is sticking there but it's also not much more confidence than random.
Yuck...
Have I mentioned I hate all of these wagons.
This is probably right to be honest. I have no feel for this game at all.