@Tom I mean it helped convince me that at least 1 of you, Rhand, and DV are scum which you clearly don't agree with so I'm not sure it accomplished anything. Also why is Riku pastel green? Doesn't seem to be enough to evaluate him yet either way
it helped convince me that tubba probably isnt. Not really my problem you arbitrarily chose a wagon to call scummier than any others.
Could be rhand though. Still think his metaing of you looked townie regardless of being correct, but dont like his stance on tubba or kami at all.
Kinda want to scumread him for it since i townread him earlier and i don't want to look bad if he does end up scum but im pretty much at null.
Ruma is one of the only agendaless reactions to tau/etr. Him and rodemy stood out as actually not knowing what to make of it.
You can't just handwave my explanations for why that wagon is more relevant than the others and say it's arbitrary. The scum reads are based off 1 post or your assertions about positioning that I can't follow. It cropped up around the time I'd expect scum to try and hop on a counter wagon. It's suspicious.
I don't think confusion to that is necessarily an agendaless reaction in this situation. But I will say if Riku is scum I'd hard call EtR/Tau as town/town.
@DV I think you're either in a tunnel and wrong or scum. I read his ISO three times, I don't know how anyone could conclude he's scum. Yes he said he wanted to resolve both EtR/Tau. It was much more "bad" than scummy to me.
@Wisp good because I'm definitely selfish enough not to listen to other people.
@Tom I mean it helped convince me that at least 1 of you, Rhand, and DV are scum which you clearly don't agree with so I'm not sure it accomplished anything. Also why is Riku pastel green? Doesn't seem to be enough to evaluate him yet either way.
@Wisp if when you read him you reached the conclusion that he wasn't scummy and so has everyone else who read Tubba then I'm going to reach the conclusion that it's a wagon that never should have happened. Though I appreciate that we are on such different pages my agreeing with you has caused you to to change your mind on the read.
@Tom getting into why your tubba reasoning feels fake, I don't fully understand your positional reads. Usually I can sort of understand a part of it but not always. This one I can't follow. I get that it's in relation to the EtR stuff and the one Tubba post anyone has pointed to (wanting to kill both EtR and Tau) but I'm not getting the why. Just feels like a because you said so.
Also back to an earlier point you made, I'm not saying the other wagons are too hard to evaluate. I'm saying since unlike this one they were either legit or RVS that the wagon itself is more insightful. The happenings around the other ones might be more worthwhile but as a wagon that is the one most likely to be scum pushed (presumably by one of you, Rhand, or maybe DV).
@Wisp So not that I've given reasons (the post with the spoiler in it being when I started digging in) what do you think of it? Given that you share my opinion that the wagon never should have happened what do you think of it.
@Wisp I made a provocative statement without backing initially. I then proceeded to explain my reasoning for why I thought the various votes were bad. I didn't bother with doing yours in depth because you had already disowned your vote for the same reason I disliked the wagon (reading Tubba's ISO doesn't give the impression that he's scum). Plus given everything else I just strongly think you're town so looking into you is a waste of effort.
If you still believed Tubba was scum or had done an in depth case then I'd understand the analogy but neither of those things are true so other than general caution I don't see why you're defending a wagon you've disowned as being ill advised, when that's the exact reason I'm pushing it for.
I'll ISO you once I get home, and I'll happily apologize if I was wrong, I still think that statement was scummy either way, no shade intended, if you had added your reasons in the statement, then sure, I could be ok with it
I moved my vote because I read his reread him last night and I agreed with others sentiment that he wasnt as scummy as I originally thought, as well as I liked his reaction to my claim
I might have called him townie at some point. I don't really know. But the section in bold is the main point I was trying to make. I didn't understand how anyone could read his ISO and confidently conclude he was scum. It felt fake to me.
Woah woah, I don't shade, where did I shade, if I ever shade, it's by accident
@Grape
Wisp you're great but shade is your default mode. If it's due to frustration then frustration is your default mode.
@DV fair on Mindreaver. On EtR I remember the comma stuff happening without ever paying attention to the details of the exact debate. That wasn't mistakes of carelessness though. You argued he was wrong and I don't remember it exactly, but even in that he was very detail oriented. You thought the details were wrong, but the point stands that he was obsessed with the details. If anything that argument is in favor of my point.
@DV For
I think everything is unlikely but simplest explanation is he got fooled.
@Wisp it's not so much that I'm town reading him as that his wagon is incredibly artificial. He's a slightly townish null to me.
I'm sorry, but no, u were calling him town before hand, give me better reasons... And I can argue that even ETRs wagon growth was insanely unnatural
I don't remember calling him town. Find it in my ISO and I'll consider replying. I vividly remember quoting a Vaimes post saying that "thank you for seeing the same thing as me."
And townies and scum both overreacting to a gotcha is the most natural thing in mafia. It's probably the default state of mafia. People overreact.
@Tom I've never understood your positional play to be honest. People toss the word around a lot and I generally pretend to understand it but it's like one of those words where you get it off context but are never quite sure on the finer points of it's meaning.
On EtR the explanations for him to be town are more convoluted to me than the ones that he's scum. I don't find his explanation of the "incorrect" targets has never sat right with me. I find that he got fooled more plausible than that he incorrectly indicated 3 people that he didn't mean to. If that case of mistaken targets didn't exist I'd find it to be pretty likely he was town FPS'ing (even if I think it's an awful play) but I can't get myself to believe that he made that mistake as town trying to FPS.
I hate how mindreaver is pushing that we need to solve the ETR/Tau thing.
No, no we don't. Its also clear he didn't read diddly squat of what I read, because I've argued a lot more then what he said I did. I used the opinion of Sir Chris and the "Remember when" as supplemental material.
Okay, why is Mindreaver's opinion of "we need to resolve this" stick out to you more than mine did? During your catch up you positively reacted to my break down of the possibilities (which concluded EtR was likely scum) and my desire to resolve it. If it's that your opinion changed why didn't this change draw ire to me as well?
Welp this is it until someone else posts.
Maybe ill go to bed...
Think i wanna vote tubba amd make that the etr counterwagon.
Mind still scummy and ill prolly case him toDay, and dont like what lngrr is choosing to focus on upon his return.
But tubba as counter makes w/v wagons most likely and i dig that.
I kind of like rhand reacting to etr/tau too. He mostly ignored the gambit and solved based on roles. #575 is a pretty good post actually.
Unvote Vote Tubba
Expect me to jump between these two all day.
There was also Rhand going from "I don't have a real tubba read" to listing him as scum with nary a mention in between.
Wisp's shade is the scummiest, but it's wisp and shade is what he does. Plus he's been independently townie and [redacted].
KJ is town. Rhand's feels the most opportunistic of the bunch, while opportunistic isn't exactly what I was looking for with this it's better than nothing. A quick skim through his ISO shows someone who can't find a comfortable place to vote. Given Rhand's normal tendencies I'd say that's a soft scum indicator.
Tom's read feels real fake. Really fake.
DV's is fine, it's a bit opportunistic as well, but not as bad as I remembered.
Maybe we should just kill everyone who thought tubba was scum and call it a day. There is no world where everyone pushing him was town.
why tubba wagon over last wagon? Or grape wagon? Or... ******* etr wagon?
Because there were demonstrable reasons those wagons existed. The tubba wagon had zero reason to exist and was pushed with great confidence by a few players over 1(?) post that was not well reasoned.
The last wagon cropped up in RVS and was fake pushed by me. As fun as it was I don't have a ton of confidence drawing conclusions from the wagon itself. Reactions to it were more valuable than the wagon.
My wagon had legit reasons behind it and since most people sheeped Rhand it's hard to sort. Vaimes looks slightly sketchy for his unecessary alternative reasoning but you've already provided semi compelling reasoning why that might be townie for Vaimes specifically.
The EtR wagon was full of either excited townies overreacting or scum pretending to overreact. It's not the easiest wagon to parse.
The tubba wagon had no mitigating circumstances and cropped up around the time I'd expect a counterwagon to be hopped on by wolves for "contrarian" credit.
LW what don't you get? Tubba was never scummy. Had a huge consensus that he was bubble up out of nothing and seemed to have real momentum before it all disippated quickly. That feels like an agenda forced wagon if I've ever seen one. I don't actually think we should kill everyone on it. But there is definitely scum who pushed Tubba.
You can't just handwave my explanations for why that wagon is more relevant than the others and say it's arbitrary. The scum reads are based off 1 post or your assertions about positioning that I can't follow. It cropped up around the time I'd expect scum to try and hop on a counter wagon. It's suspicious.
I don't think confusion to that is necessarily an agendaless reaction in this situation. But I will say if Riku is scum I'd hard call EtR/Tau as town/town.
@DV I think you're either in a tunnel and wrong or scum. I read his ISO three times, I don't know how anyone could conclude he's scum. Yes he said he wanted to resolve both EtR/Tau. It was much more "bad" than scummy to me.
@Wisp good because I'm definitely selfish enough not to listen to other people.
But that's worse than Vote:EtR
And I'm not ready to do that till I hear more from EtR and Tau so I'm going to stick with Vote: Rhand and see where it leads.
@Wisp if when you read him you reached the conclusion that he wasn't scummy and so has everyone else who read Tubba then I'm going to reach the conclusion that it's a wagon that never should have happened. Though I appreciate that we are on such different pages my agreeing with you has caused you to to change your mind on the read.
Vote: Rhand
Should have done this earlier tbh.
Also back to an earlier point you made, I'm not saying the other wagons are too hard to evaluate. I'm saying since unlike this one they were either legit or RVS that the wagon itself is more insightful. The happenings around the other ones might be more worthwhile but as a wagon that is the one most likely to be scum pushed (presumably by one of you, Rhand, or maybe DV).
@Wisp So not that I've given reasons (the post with the spoiler in it being when I started digging in) what do you think of it? Given that you share my opinion that the wagon never should have happened what do you think of it.
If you still believed Tubba was scum or had done an in depth case then I'd understand the analogy but neither of those things are true so other than general caution I don't see why you're defending a wagon you've disowned as being ill advised, when that's the exact reason I'm pushing it for.
I might have called him townie at some point. I don't really know. But the section in bold is the main point I was trying to make. I didn't understand how anyone could read his ISO and confidently conclude he was scum. It felt fake to me.
@DV fair on Mindreaver. On EtR I remember the comma stuff happening without ever paying attention to the details of the exact debate. That wasn't mistakes of carelessness though. You argued he was wrong and I don't remember it exactly, but even in that he was very detail oriented. You thought the details were wrong, but the point stands that he was obsessed with the details. If anything that argument is in favor of my point.
I don't remember calling him town. Find it in my ISO and I'll consider replying. I vividly remember quoting a Vaimes post saying that "thank you for seeing the same thing as me."
And townies and scum both overreacting to a gotcha is the most natural thing in mafia. It's probably the default state of mafia. People overreact.
@Tom I've never understood your positional play to be honest. People toss the word around a lot and I generally pretend to understand it but it's like one of those words where you get it off context but are never quite sure on the finer points of it's meaning.
On EtR the explanations for him to be town are more convoluted to me than the ones that he's scum. I don't find his explanation of the "incorrect" targets has never sat right with me. I find that he got fooled more plausible than that he incorrectly indicated 3 people that he didn't mean to. If that case of mistaken targets didn't exist I'd find it to be pretty likely he was town FPS'ing (even if I think it's an awful play) but I can't get myself to believe that he made that mistake as town trying to FPS.
Okay, why is Mindreaver's opinion of "we need to resolve this" stick out to you more than mine did? During your catch up you positively reacted to my break down of the possibilities (which concluded EtR was likely scum) and my desire to resolve it. If it's that your opinion changed why didn't this change draw ire to me as well?
Anyway Tubba stuff
There was also Rhand going from "I don't have a real tubba read" to listing him as scum with nary a mention in between.
KJ is town. Rhand's feels the most opportunistic of the bunch, while opportunistic isn't exactly what I was looking for with this it's better than nothing. A quick skim through his ISO shows someone who can't find a comfortable place to vote. Given Rhand's normal tendencies I'd say that's a soft scum indicator.
Tom's read feels real fake. Really fake.
DV's is fine, it's a bit opportunistic as well, but not as bad as I remembered.
I think everything is unlikely but simplest explanation is he got fooled.
@Wisp it's not so much that I'm town reading him as that his wagon is incredibly artificial. He's a slightly townish null to me.
Because there were demonstrable reasons those wagons existed. The tubba wagon had zero reason to exist and was pushed with great confidence by a few players over 1(?) post that was not well reasoned.
The last wagon cropped up in RVS and was fake pushed by me. As fun as it was I don't have a ton of confidence drawing conclusions from the wagon itself. Reactions to it were more valuable than the wagon.
My wagon had legit reasons behind it and since most people sheeped Rhand it's hard to sort. Vaimes looks slightly sketchy for his unecessary alternative reasoning but you've already provided semi compelling reasoning why that might be townie for Vaimes specifically.
The EtR wagon was full of either excited townies overreacting or scum pretending to overreact. It's not the easiest wagon to parse.
The tubba wagon had no mitigating circumstances and cropped up around the time I'd expect a counterwagon to be hopped on by wolves for "contrarian" credit.