As things stand, unless Silicon suddenly is able to give an actual explanation for his actions, I'd be happy to lynch him today. The case made is strong, and like I said before he just kinda shrugged off the points made against him. I think it would do us some good to have everybody give their opinion on Silicon as scum or not and why. Heck, we might even finally have a lynch to end this second god-awful (pun intended) day.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
As things stand, unless Silicon suddenly is able to give an actual explanation for his actions, I'd be happy to lynch him today. The case made is strong, and like I said before he just kinda shrugged off the points made against him. I think it would do us some good to have everybody give their opinion on Silicon as scum or not and why. Heck, we might even finally have a lynch to end this second god-awful (pun intended) day.
I do believe I already gave the actual explanations. *looks back* Yes, yes I did, in post 1946. I would guess that this is the post you say that I "shrugged off" the accusations? Those are however the best explanations I can possibly give.
I am currently trying to reread some things. Hopefully I'll have another post tonight (no promises however).
All I can do about this is apologize for this.
I had seen no reason to tell everyone else
I'm unsure of why I did not mention the next post of Passdogs.
I don't know why I did not mention which points I agreed with
Again about all I can do here is apologize for saying "interesting"
I apologize again.
Hmm... I can definately see how it can be viewed like that
Wow, what was that about not shrugging things off and providing reasons? All I see is a lot of "Oh yeah, guess I should stop doing that" and "I don't know why I did that" with a few "Huh, yeah I guess that is scummy" for good measure. Not gonna fly with me. Vote stands.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
Lynching Silicon is too easy. It wouldn't have taken manipulation to divert us. A suggestion would have sufficed. And it did. This is not the right path. Not because of the case against Silicon, but because of why we are looking at Silicon.
Machin Shin seems to be in an awfully big hurry to end today. I know that this day (and day one) have dragged on quite a bit, but this blood-thirsty latch onto Silicon is not winning me over with confidence. The irony is, of the case on Silicon, I bet I could go back and make a similar one on Machin Shin. I might just take a look back at that...
I'm getting a little disillusioned by this this thread.
We have a good number of strong players backing me up on a number of points, but no pushes strong enough to generate a substantial wagon. In the meantime, the remainder of the thread has been bogged down by endless fields of point-by-point, and distracted from the actual lynch case against Rafk and Axel by a debate on theory which only makes up a portion of the case.
I would have done some PBPAs of them long ago, but from what I'm hearing, the last thing some of the people in this thread want is another point-by-point war between myself and one of them, so I've been hoping someone else will step up to the plate. But I'm not sure that's going to happen anytime soon, which might leave us with a Silicon default lynch.
I'm afraid that's the state we've reached. There is so much out there on the table, and so much of it convoluted by the wordy replies of the accused and accusers alike. There just comes a point where people begin to say, "screw it, let's get today over with", I guess (see Machin Shin), but given the current state of affairs if we throw away today's lynch, we're likely in an unrecoverable position when tomorrow dawns.
Concisely, Azrael, can you sum up what your preferred course of action would be? I would ask the same from Axelrod and RafaelK.
Anyone else who'd like to throw their hat in the ring, too, would be welcome, of course, but these are the three "big guns" of this thread as of late, and I'd like to weigh their opinions against one another laid out nice and cleanly.
Not really fond at the attempt to shift everything onto Az, me and Axel. The problem is currently that half the players are sitting back and hoping other people will resolve this lynch for them.
My stance hasn't changed. I want kops lynched. The Silicon bandwagon has merit; it's something to come back to tomorrow, with more information. Right now it seems to be getting a lot of inertia votes (or "whoo there's a bandwagon that's not on one of our scum buddies!" votes, or both) more than anything.
I'm willing to accept what Puzzle is saying re: kops for now so I don't see myself voting for him. Although I wonder if Puzzle really knows what he thinks he knows. Kops said that he thought the person he targeted might be aware of it. If Puzzle is thinking that kops targeted him (and since he's still alive kops is likely town) that might be a faulty conclusion. Especially as kops went out of his way to say it.
But I don't know who kops targeted and I don't know what Puzzle knows so that might be completely off base.
Also this:
Quote from AH »
Lynching Silicon is too easy. It wouldn't have taken manipulation to divert us. A suggestion would have sufficed. And it did. This is not the right path. Not because of the case against Silicon, but because of why we are looking at Silicon.
looks really bad in my opinion. He is saying (without quite directly saying) ignore the case because of who it came from. He even appears to be saying the case is reasonable (no "manipulation"). But it's somehow "too easy."
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Not really fond at the attempt to shift everything onto Az, me and Axel. The problem is currently that half the players are sitting back and hoping other people will resolve this lynch for them.
I'm trying to simplify weeks worth of debate and rhetoric into something concise that perhaps the general masses will take the time to read through completely. I do want everyone to weigh in on the summarized synopses. I think we're simply asking too much of the everyday mafia player to invest the time it takes go through pages and pages of debate between high-powered analysts. I'll admit that I've struggled a bit keeping focus, and given the amount of massive lurking going on here, it seems others are as well.
@Axel: So, to be clear- you're sticking with the case on Silicon being the best lead at this point?
Quote from Axelrod »
I'm willing to accept what Puzzle is saying re: kops for now so I don't see myself voting for him. Although I wonder if Puzzle really knows what he thinks he knows. Kops said that he thought the person he targeted might be aware of it. If Puzzle is thinking that kops targeted him (and since he's still alive kops is likely town) that might be a faulty conclusion. Especially as kops went out of his way to say it.
But I don't know who kops targeted and I don't know what Puzzle knows so that might be completely off base.
-and not to lynch Kops. You still seem to have your doubts about him, though.
@Puzzle: is the conclusion Axel is drawing here what's leading you to believe he may be town? As he's already claimed doctor, I don't know what else he could reveal that would be detrimental to the town. If it is the proper conclusion, do you want Kops to reveal whether or not he did target you?
Quote from Axelrod »
Quote from Abandon Hope »
Lynching Silicon is too easy. It wouldn't have taken manipulation to divert us. A suggestion would have sufficed. And it did. This is not the right path. Not because of the case against Silicon, but because of why we are looking at Silicon.
looks really bad in my opinion. He is saying (without quite directly saying) ignore the case because of who it came from. He even appears to be saying the case is reasonable (no "manipulation"). But it's somehow "too easy."
In all fairness, the Silicon wagon is reminding me of the Day one Absolutionis wagon in retrospect - gaining speed quickly as a result of utter frustration with the current game state.
I've got some qualms with AH's play thus far, but this statement was not one of them. I think you're misrepresenting his point here- Abandon Hope seems to be saying that we're looking at Silicon only because we can't come to a consensus on the Kops situation, and it's frustrating to the point where it wouldn't take someone 'manipulating' the town to get off it, it simply would have taken a fresh 'suggestion'. And a wishy-washy lurker certainly fits that bill. He does seem to think the case against Silicon has some merit, just not that it's where we should be focusing our attention- at least that's what I'm getting from it. AH, feel free to clarify if I'm wrong, here, but I don't think he's attacking who it came from at all.
Quote from RafaelK »
My stance hasn't changed. I want kops lynched. The Silicon bandwagon has merit; it's something to come back to tomorrow, with more information. Right now it seems to be getting a lot of inertia votes (or "whoo there's a bandwagon that's not on one of our scum buddies!" votes, or both) more than anything.
I thought this was the case, and I'm not liking what I read, honestly. Raf, do you really want to lynch the claimed doctor? Can you extrapolate on how this is a good play?
See above about comparison of the Abso/Silicon wagons- I totally agree with you there.
In all fairness, the Silicon wagon is reminding me of the Day one Absolutionis wagon in retrospect - gaining speed quickly as a result of utter frustration with the current game state.
I've got some qualms with AH's play thus far, but this statement was not one of them. I think you're misrepresenting his point here- Abandon Hope seems to be saying that we're looking at Silicon only because we can't come to a consensus on the Kops situation, and it's frustrating to the point where it wouldn't take someone 'manipulating' the town to get off it, it simply would have taken a fresh 'suggestion'. And a wishy-washy lurker certainly fits that bill. He does seem to think the case against Silicon has some merit, just not that it's where we should be focusing our attention- at least that's what I'm getting from it. AH, feel free to clarify if I'm wrong, here, but I don't think he's attacking who it came from at all.
No no no. Disagree totally. AH is voting me right now. It appears quite clear to me that he is saying that I'm trying to distract the town from myself (not kops) with the Silicon attack.
I don't think AH has expressed an opinion about kops, at least not recently.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
No no no. Disagree totally. AH is voting me right now. It appears quite clear to me that he is saying that I'm trying to distract the town from myself (not kops) with the Silicon attack.
I don't think AH has expressed an opinion about kops, at least not recently.
I missed that he was voting you. That certainly paints the picture in a different perspective inserting "Axelrod" where I had been assuming "Kops". Similar to what you'd suggested, he does seem to imply we're looking at Silicon for the wrong reason, that being it should be you (Axelrod), instead. Got it.
I'm in much more agreement with AH with my original interpretation than this one.
Going back to look at his posts, it was awhile back, but he agreed with my assessment on Kops that if he truly is the doctor he'll likely meet his demise at the hands of someone other than the town.
To be honest, yes I am getting a little eager to end the day. We've been playing for 2 and 1/2 months and we're on day 2, with no clear end to this day in sight. It's almost to the point where it's not fun anymore, and guess what happens when I stop having fun with a game I'm playing? That's right, I quit and do something that is fun. I'm not to that point yet, but I feel like everybody is soooo concerned about point-counterpoint and building immaculate cases, and we've seen where that's gotten us. There are so many veterans in this game. If you asked me my opinion on most of them, it would be town/undecided, because guess what else: the veterans in this game are too smart to get caught this early. If I wouldn't get immediately wagonned and possibly even lynched for it, I'd almost suggest a random lynch today just to get it over with. So yeah, if I seem aggressive and willing to throw my vote around for the rest of today, now you know why.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
Could we at least get a claim out of Silicon? That might spur something.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
So, this is now officially the longest game on this site, ever, and we're only on Day 2. Does this mean that we're going to have 3500 posts by the time game is done, 3 months from now?
I still want Az to explain since when the case against kops as mafia has been weakening. As far as I can tell, it's stronger than ever.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Clarification: As far as I know, the person who I target gains no information just because I targetted them. However, I was hoping that something like in SftD happened where my target's role informed them that they were targetted by some kind of protection.
I think I can definately get behind a silicon wagon at this point in time as there are very few other leads (though I am still behind a Jobie wagon as well). I also agree with the sentiment that a claim would probably be the best course of action right now, at least to push this day forwards. At this point it seems to me this game is moving at about the same pace as Power Rangers mafia (possibly even slower) but with about 10 times as many posts, which is even less fun, as machin shin has said.
Thank you DYH for interpreting my posts so beautifully. My intent in my previous post was closer to the second explaination, but the first is also valid. The results of the Kops argument on those who argued it are being relitively ignored. So yes I think we should focus on Axel. But if not, we still have the kops situation before Silicon. And Chucklez. Silicon is a distraction.
My opinion of a Kops is as DYH said. Claimed docs die. And if they dont, then we can lynch them.
@CP: Really? Oh my! What was previously the longest game?
AH, I actually agree with all of your suspects over silicon, but want to see something happen.
Also, as I said, I've seen a Doc under suspcion live because the scum were hoping for a misslynch (they got it). We should find some criteria other than survival by which to analyze Kops.
No points for guessing where I'm headed with that one. Straight into WIFOM country I dare say. But I so love it there.
Quote from AH »
@CP: Really? Oh my! What was previously the longest game?
The one that finished right before this one started - Star Trek. So much for that record.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I don't find Silicon all that scummy, or Axel. The big thread and my lurking has really distracted me from who I found scummy yesterday, and trying to figure out the reasons again would require me to reread the thread, which most definatelly will not be happening.
So therefore I'm still standing behind my vote, because he's scummy, I don't really have anyone else I find that scummy, and LAD. !Chucklez! is fine for LAD too, since he's still alive, because I thought someone (SK, mafia, maybe vig) would kill him, though Treigit's brought up the mislynch scenario, which makes sense and makes the situation WIFOM.
By the amount of time, ROTK currently has the record with 6 months. Just sayin'.
I would also like to hear a claim from Silicon. However, I don't want to count the number of votes on him, and I also don't want to cliff push, so I will give him a psuedo-vote-like FOS: Silicon.
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The Following post was composed entierly while drunk, and shouldn't be considered to be an actual suggestion. It's a joke, and probably a bad one.
I think the ultimate play would be to have everyone claim whether or not they're a power role, and limit out lynches to one of those. It would... cut down on... People claiming vanilla when they're wagonned... yeah
I thought this was the case, and I'm not liking what I read, honestly. Raf, do you really want to lynch the claimed doctor? Can you extrapolate on how this is a good play?
I claimed doctor at the end of ROOTK mafia. I was lying. You're far too trusting.
kops' doctor claim is extremely unconvincing to me, and he's said nothing and done nothing that would convince me he might actually be a townie doctor. Apart from all the behaviour which none of his defenders seem to want to try and explain (but you're doing an awfully good job of ignoring), what's he done to help the town? Az' argument is that he's probably the cult-leader type of scum and we must lynch a mafia scum tonight, which at least is an argument if not one I agree with. But trying to pull out the "kops' claim is true" card? Back it up, if you dare.
Quote from kops723 »
Clarification: As far as I know, the person who I target gains no information just because I targetted them. However, I was hoping that something like in SftD happened where my target's role informed them that they were targetted by some kind of protection.
I think I can definately get behind a silicon wagon at this point in time as there are very few other leads (though I am still behind a Jobie wagon as well). I also agree with the sentiment that a claim would probably be the best course of action right now, at least to push this day forwards.
kops' last post. What's he doing here?
1) kops at one stage hinted that his protection target could back him up. This is, of course, just one of his lies. Axelrod followed up on that point (good thing too, I'd forgotten it). kops instantly backpedals again. In fact, he was just "hoping" that his protection target would know. So nothing testable and no penalty for kops if the person doesn't know. HOW CONVENIENT.
2) Wants to just bandwagon silicon and make him claim, just because. But this time he makes sure to mention Jobie because I called him out last time for not being consistent about attacking Jobie.
I can read kops' posts like a book at this point. Lynch him and finish this day, seriously. He's scum. Guaranteed.
The Rafk summary post, if no one beats me to it, is slated for sometime in the near future. I'm a little rundown at the moment, but it's on the agenda.
So, this is now officially the longest game on this site, ever, and we're only on Day 2. Does this mean that we're going to have 3500 posts by the time game is done, 3 months from now?
I still want Az to explain since when the case against kops as mafia has been weakening. As far as I can tell, it's stronger than ever.
Weakening? Not particularly. I think it's more accurately described as superficial and inconclusive, as it stands.
The cult charge is somewhat weakened, at least if we believe Mosschop and Treigit. Lene, the supposed cult leader, is the God of Humility, not time. So, according to the claimed cultists, "time" wasn't a cult breadcrumb.
I claimed doctor at the end of ROOTK mafia. I was lying. You're far too trusting.
kops' doctor claim is extremely unconvincing to me, and he's said nothing and done nothing that would convince me he might actually be a townie doctor. Apart from all the behaviour which none of his defenders seem to want to try and explain (but you're doing an awfully good job of ignoring), what's he done to help the town? Az' argument is that he's probably the cult-leader type of scum and we must lynch a mafia scum tonight, which at least is an argument if not one I agree with. But trying to pull out the "kops' claim is true" card? Back it up, if you dare.
Misrepping me, again. The cult argument is somewhat weaker now, I'd say, although the sources are obviously a little biased. I've stated several times now in my arguments with you that that's my stance.
This one probably wasn't on purpose though, I don't see how it benefits you much at least.
Quote from Rafaelk »
kops' last post. What's he doing here?
1) kops at one stage hinted that his protection target could back him up. This is, of course, just one of his lies. Axelrod followed up on that point (good thing too, I'd forgotten it). kops instantly backpedals again. In fact, he was just "hoping" that his protection target would know. So nothing testable and no penalty for kops if the person doesn't know. HOW CONVENIENT.
So, your theory is that he was going to count on one of his mafia buddies to confirm him?
You're twisting every one of his actions to paint the picture you want it to(the same accusation that Axelrod attempted to hang on me, ironically). But none of them are conclusive, and there is little evidence to explain any of his claim-related gaffes have a basis in scumhood.
It might be bad play, but it certainly hasn't been helping him.
Quote from Rafaelk »
2) Wants to just bandwagon silicon and make him claim, just because. But this time he makes sure to mention Jobie because I called him out last time for not being consistent about attacking Jobie.
Ok, that's getting stronger, although you're still twisting the language to suit your purposes ("just because").
Quote from Rafaelk »
I can read kops' posts like a book at this point. Lynch him and finish this day, seriously. He's scum. Guaranteed.
I claimed doctor at the end of ROOTK mafia. I was lying. You're far too trusting.
Guess so. Sue me for not wanting to gank our potential doctor? Those situations are so far from similar, it's absurd. That was an endgame ploy you made in an attempt to win the game- this is day 2.
Quote from RafaelK »
kops' doctor claim is extremely unconvincing to me, and he's said nothing and done nothing that would convince me he might actually be a townie doctor. Apart from all the behaviour which none of his defenders seem to want to try and explain (but you're doing an awfully good job of ignoring), what's he done to help the town? Az' argument is that he's probably the cult-leader type of scum and we must lynch a mafia scum tonight, which at least is an argument if not one I agree with. But trying to pull out the "kops' claim is true" card? Back it up, if you dare.
I'm buying the crappy explanation of the breadcrumb back as kops' way of saying "hey, I think I know who you are". Given his dedication to the idea of getting his breadcrumb out there as a result of the game you modded, Raf, I can see him making this poor play. Also, he did breadcrumb Arvoreen, and frankly, looking at the literature, I don't see this as a scum role. He hasn't been counter-claimed on either point, and we have seen D&D gods. Sure, I might be gullible, but it's not built on complete and utter speculation (that he is scum pretending to be the townie person Treigit could have been seeking out?). Even the explanation that he recruited Treigit and knew was a Time-related god is far more believeable, hence the breadcrumb, and at that point, he's the Cult Leader, and I'm in agreement with Azrael that we need to hit killing scum.
Quote from RafaelK »
kops' last post. What's he doing here?
1) kops at one stage hinted that his protection target could back him up. This is, of course, just one of his lies. Axelrod followed up on that point (good thing too, I'd forgotten it). kops instantly backpedals again. In fact, he was just "hoping" that his protection target would know. So nothing testable and no penalty for kops if the person doesn't know. HOW CONVENIENT.
I'll wait for Puzzle to answer my question on this before jumping to this conclusion, thanks. Again, as a result of flavor from your very own game, Kops suspects his target may be notified. Not the greatest assumption in the world on his part- but it certainly explains what he could have PMed DM about, no?
Quote from RafaelK »
2) Wants to just bandwagon silicon and make him claim, just because. But this time he makes sure to mention Jobie because I called him out last time for not being consistent about attacking Jobie.
This is not a point in his favor, agreed.
I can read kops' posts like a book at this point. Lynch him and finish this day, seriously. He's scum. Guaranteed.[/quote]
I remember when we could finish whole games in under 1000 posts. Sigh. Those were the days, right?
Chucklez has gone AWOL again. He never answered my question. Did I mention I don't trust him either?
Raf: don't "guarantee" anything your not sure about. I'm not even guaranteeing Silicon is scum, though I like my odds. What about Puzzle and his 99% certainty? It would seem one of you is overstating his position.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Chucklez has gone AWOL again. He never answered my question. Did I mention I don't trust him either?
I think I've mentioned I'm pretty sure Chucklez is scum. I'd be happy to lynch him. The only reason I'm not voting him is because I hate feeling impotent, and with no one supporting me, my vote does nothing.
Quote from Azrael »
Pseudo-vote Rafaelk, Vote Azrael.
I am your sword, I am your shield. Vote: RafaelK. (this is a joke. Not the vote, but the quote)
More seriously, I think we are finally going in a promising direction. Patterns of scummy behavior in an experienced player = scum.
So, your theory is that he was going to count on one of his mafia buddies to confirm him?
No. My theory is that he made it up so people would go "oh, he's a confirmable doc, good, let's look elsewhere", and it would have worked if Axelrod hadn't actually asked him to confirm it.
You're twisting every one of his actions to paint the picture you want it to(the same accusation that Axelrod attempted to hang on me, ironically). But none of them are conclusive, and there is little evidence to explain any of his claim-related gaffes have a basis in scumhood.
It might be bad play, but it certainly hasn't been helping him.[/quote]
It is bad play and it's not helping him, but the guy is doing nothing but lie and mislead and at some point I expect people to ask themselves "why would a townie consistently act like this?".
You say little evidence of scumhood? I would say that his inability to be straight with us is strong evidence of scumhood. That's where the LAL rule comes from.
Oh, and the MD lynch wasn't bad. I feel that bandwagon was justified. Before you get too righteous, so did you (well, of course you did because you knew he was town etc etc).
Especially before you get too righteous, I'll point out I strongly defended Abso while others tried to lynch him (not naming names.. YET). Abso was town.
The reason I bring up Abso right now is because Abso's vanilla claim was verified, by Cyan. We had evidence Abso was telling the truth, but certain people still wanted him lynched. Compare that to right now, where we have evidence kops is lying but apparently that's not good enough.
Raf: don't "guarantee" anything your not sure about.
It helped when I trying to get bateleur on day 1 of Trek *shrugs* I'm sure enough. No-one can be 100% sure in these games, and the downfall right now is that half the people here aren't willing to commit until they are 100% sure, and with scum/misguided townies out defending anything that moves (I'd almost guarantee Az at this point too, he's been incredibly obstructionist and unproductive all day) no-one's going to be 100% sure.
I spoke too soon about being settled in. Put simply the last few days have been a cluster ****.
Anyway, definitely done now, and have read what I missed.
Axel: What was your question?
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Hi everyone, um feel like giving me a couple days to sort through this mess of a thread?
I'm about a quarter of the way through day one so it'll be a while before I have anything meaningful.
I did not target Puzzle, nor (like I said) does my pm imply that my target would know I targetted them. Of course, there is the possibility that I was redirected although there's nothing to imply this since the person I did target didn't die (obviously... since I asked if anyone thought I may have targetted them) and I didn't even get a reply pm at all, which I thought was kind of odd b/c I looked at the post-game for D_M's last game and he seemed to be sending reply pms to everyone.
Anyway, long story short, I don't know why puzzle received that info.
First of all, does anyone actually recall when/where Lene came from in our discussion? If it started with Treigit, after we already knew about Glasswright gods, then it means very little. I seem to recall that Abso was the first Glasswright, wasn't he? Saying that the case against kops as cult is weaker because the cultists have claimed a name that may or may not have anything to do with them is an insignificant point.
Of course, I may be misremembering, and there might be some reason to think that Lene is real that I don't recall. Can anyone point that out?
I have to leave, but I'll comment on the Puzzle/kops situation soon.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Oh my god, my brain has just simultaneously exploded and imploded from reading about half of this thread. So far I've gotten through say 2 but I'd like to go through it again to be sure I have it all down. I also got through day 1.
So I'm going to go ahead and just post some of the public knowledge to make sure I have it straight, and if I got it wrong will someone please correct me.
Kops = Arvoreeen doc
me = cop
treigit = cultist to lene(vanilla), previously lealean (or however it's spelt) a vanilla elf god of time
mosschops = the other cultist to lene (vanilla)
Chuckie = faith healer( I'm guessing doc that only works some of the time)
puzzle = confirmed townie by myself
kenji = another doc?
Just confirmation for myself.
Anyways from my first runthrough the players I'm most comfortable going after are Sillicon, Rafel they are the two players that I believe have contributed little to the disscussion and, in my experience, are people that I have an impossible time getting a read on.
That is by no means my definitive opinion just the one I have after a first read through. fos: Sillicon, Rafel
I'll be on later tonight and likely tomorrow so I'll have some more to add then.
@CP: As far as I can tell lene is the Cult leader, and this has been confirmed by both mosschops and treigit.
Okay what just happened? Did Puzzle just get caught out in a complete piece of BS? Claiming he was targeted by some kind of "silver" protection when he thought kops had targeted him?
That "breadcrumb" doesn't appear to make any sense either as a crumb that you were targeted by something silver. Or that it was a protection. So what is going on here?
Not happy.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Puzzle was on the list anyway due to the Abso vigging, but that apparently backfired attempt to gild the lily just shot him to #1 (but in other news, kops looks much much better... see what happens when you actually tell the truth?).
No, dammit unvote. There's something more to this than that. Puzzle, what do you mean Kenji confirmed something silver about you? Could you give me a link?
@CP: As far as I can tell lene is the Cult leader, and this has been confirmed by both mosschops and treigit.
Yes, well that's the problem. My whole point was that Treigit and Mosschop both have an excellent reason to be lying. In fact, beyond excellent; fantastic. Unless we have some kind of outside confirmation that Lene exists in the game, we have about as much reason to trust Mosschop and Treigit on this point as we do to trust those people who say that apes evolved from humans.
As for Puzzle, we first have to keep in mind that he was investigated as innocent. He is presumably not lying. Which makes kops' claim as doc quite a bit less believable, since we seem to have yet another doc (who isn't Kenji).
Lastly, unless I'm missing something, Kenji is not the doc. IIRC, he specifically said that he didn't know anything about the silver that Puzzle was talking about, and that it didn't have anything to do with his role. All we do know is that he targeted Puzzle.
Can someone explain why we aren't lynching kops now?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Tregit - his claim is plausable but I'm struggling to think of a scenario where Labelas' goal will be good for the town. I also have my doubts about that actually being Treigit's cult leader. At the moment I'm in favour of the 'vig Treigit' plan
a lot to say.
No. My theory is that he made it up so people would go "oh, he's a confirmable doc, good, let's look elsewhere", and it would have worked if Axelrod hadn't actually asked him to confirm it.
Ok. So your theory is that he has the brains of a squirrel hopped up on cocaine.
Quote from Rafaelk »
It is bad play and it's not helping him, but the guy is doing nothing but lie and mislead and at some point I expect people to ask themselves "why would a townie consistently act like this?".
Lie and mislead who? The town, or the mafia in their search for power roles?
Quote from Rafaelk »
You say little evidence of scumhood? I would say that his inability to be straight with us is strong evidence of scumhood. That's where the LAL rule comes from.
See above.
Quote from Rafaelk »
Oh, and the MD lynch wasn't bad. I feel that bandwagon was justified. Before you get too righteous, so did you (well, of course you did because you knew he was town etc etc).
You're going aside from the point. The issue I was raising was your posting style, and your rationales for the MD case, both of which were faulty. It's not who, it's why and how.
Quote from Rafaelk »
Especially before you get too righteous, I'll point out I strongly defended Abso while others tried to lynch him (not naming names.. YET). Abso was town.
Mm hmm. You're definitely taking the high road again. Showing remarkable restraint by not even THINKING of throwing in some attacks on the source.
Quote from Rafaelk »
The reason I bring up Abso right now is because Abso's vanilla claim was verified, by Cyan. We had evidence Abso was telling the truth, but certain people still wanted him lynched. Compare that to right now, where we have evidence kops is lying but apparently that's not good enough.
Double standards much?
Claim information != alignment confirmation. Bad comparison.
Quote from Rafaelk »
It helped when I trying to get bateleur on day 1 of Trek *shrugs* I'm sure enough. No-one can be 100% sure in these games, and the downfall right now is that half the people here aren't willing to commit until they are 100% sure, and with scum/misguided townies out defending anything that moves (I'd almost guarantee Az at this point too, he's been incredibly obstructionist and unproductive all day) no-one's going to be 100% sure.
El. Oh. El. So if I support the wagons you support, I'm being productive, and if I push for your lynch, I'm obstructionist? I like that logic.:rofl:
Puzzle was on the list anyway due to the Abso vigging, but that apparently backfired attempt to gild the lily just shot him to #1 (but in other news, kops looks much much better... see what happens when you actually tell the truth?).
Add voting for a currently confirmed townie, via cop investigation, to Rafaelk's list of tells.
I'd forgotten about the investigation on Puzzle. It was a long time ago (in real time), and Puzzle's been gone most of the time since then and I was gone for part of that time too. Do me a lemon.
Regarding obstructionist, it's not until recently that you started pushing for my lynch. What did you do for the 800 or so posts before that?
The Abso situation is NOT a bad comparison at all. The Abso wagon was based on poor logic and part of his claim was verified. Yes, he wasn't cop-verified or anything (and neither is kops), but at least something he said came up true and yet you had it in for him. Whereas you defend kops' lies by saying he'd have to be stupid to do so as mafia (WIFOM), he's lying to protect his (exposed) (claimed) power role, etc etc. I like that attempt to exaggerate things out of the park with the coked-up squirrel line, btw.
I'd forgotten about the investigation on Puzzle. It was a long time ago (in real time), and Puzzle's been gone most of the time since then and I was gone for part of that time too. Do me a lemon.
Ok. We'll ignore your scum tell just this once. *extends hand*
Quote from Rafaelk »
Regarding obstructionist, it's not until recently that you started pushing for my lynch. What did you do for the 800 or so posts before that?
Try to lynch Axelrod?
Quote from Rafaelk »
The Abso situation is NOT a bad comparison at all. The Abso wagon was based on poor logic and part of his claim was verified. Yes, he wasn't cop-verified or anything (and neither is kops), but at least something he said came up true and yet you had it in for him.
Telling the truth != confirmation.
LAL is obviously not a hard-and-fast rule. You have to examine the reasons why a lie might be told. You should ask Cropcircles about that sometime.
Quote from Rafaelk »
Whereas you defend kops' lies by saying he'd have to be stupid to do so as mafia (WIFOM), he's lying to protect his (exposed) (claimed) power role, etc etc.
I'm not saying he'd have to be stupid to do it as mafia, I'm saying there's no point in doing it as mafia, so it's not one of his tells.
Quote from Rafaelk »
I like that attempt to exaggerate things out of the park with the coked-up squirrel line, btw.
Thank you, I was proud of that one.
But that's exactly what he'd have to be, if he thought for an instant that he could get away with claiming confirmability without having anyone to confirm him. Again, you're speculating wildly to protect your argument, and none of your suggestions are credible.
ok so kenji just targeted puzzle and it gave puzzle a silver protective thing but kenji is not a doctor. Kops who is Arvoreen, a claimed doc that uses silver, didn't target puzzle?
@CP: Ignoring your blasphemous comment about evolution that makes a lot of sense, but really with multiple members of the cult outed we can control it's size for at least a little while. So I'm going to agree with AZ on ignoring the cult for our target. But that is something that needs to be addressed, likely tomorrow.
I'm extremly confused by the kenji/puzzle thing.
@CC: when you mentiond the redirector did you say you were notified that your target had been altered?
ok so kenji just targeted puzzle and it gave puzzle a silver protective thing but kenji is not a doctor. Kops who is Arvoreen, a claimed doc that uses silver, didn't target puzzle?
That would seem to be the case. So we have a claimed doctor who can't be confirmed, and a claimed non-doctor who can protect people. I'm so confused.
@CP: Ignoring your blasphemous comment about evolution that makes a lot of sense,
Oh? So you support the theory that apes evolved from humans?:rolleyes:
but really with multiple members of the cult outed we can control it's size for at least a little while.
So you're suggesting that we ought to, what? Have the vig kill off recruits for us while we lynch others? This argument doesn't make much sense to me.
So I'm going to agree with AZ on ignoring the cult for our target. But that is something that needs to be addressed, likely tomorrow.
What is the difference between addressing the cult today or tomorrow?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
So you're suggesting that we ought to, what? Have the vig kill off recruits for us while we lynch others? This argument doesn't make much sense to me.
No, my point is that if we don't deal with the cult before it becomes a problem we can have the vig kill off known recruits to keep from losing, as a last resort sort of thing. And by not spending time lynching cultists we can focus on finding mafia.
What is the difference between addressing the cult today or tomorrow?
Well we'll have more information so we'll have a better chance at finding the CL since it appears to me to not be worth it going after vanilla cultists.
I do believe I already gave the actual explanations. *looks back* Yes, yes I did, in post 1946. I would guess that this is the post you say that I "shrugged off" the accusations? Those are however the best explanations I can possibly give.
I am currently trying to reread some things. Hopefully I'll have another post tonight (no promises however).
Wow, what was that about not shrugging things off and providing reasons? All I see is a lot of "Oh yeah, guess I should stop doing that" and "I don't know why I did that" with a few "Huh, yeah I guess that is scummy" for good measure. Not gonna fly with me. Vote stands.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
We have a good number of strong players backing me up on a number of points, but no pushes strong enough to generate a substantial wagon. In the meantime, the remainder of the thread has been bogged down by endless fields of point-by-point, and distracted from the actual lynch case against Rafk and Axel by a debate on theory which only makes up a portion of the case.
I would have done some PBPAs of them long ago, but from what I'm hearing, the last thing some of the people in this thread want is another point-by-point war between myself and one of them, so I've been hoping someone else will step up to the plate. But I'm not sure that's going to happen anytime soon, which might leave us with a Silicon default lynch.
Vote Azrael.
I'm afraid that's the state we've reached. There is so much out there on the table, and so much of it convoluted by the wordy replies of the accused and accusers alike. There just comes a point where people begin to say, "screw it, let's get today over with", I guess (see Machin Shin), but given the current state of affairs if we throw away today's lynch, we're likely in an unrecoverable position when tomorrow dawns.
Concisely, Azrael, can you sum up what your preferred course of action would be? I would ask the same from Axelrod and RafaelK.
Anyone else who'd like to throw their hat in the ring, too, would be welcome, of course, but these are the three "big guns" of this thread as of late, and I'd like to weigh their opinions against one another laid out nice and cleanly.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
My stance hasn't changed. I want kops lynched. The Silicon bandwagon has merit; it's something to come back to tomorrow, with more information. Right now it seems to be getting a lot of inertia votes (or "whoo there's a bandwagon that's not on one of our scum buddies!" votes, or both) more than anything.
You don't need this from me. Why are you asking?
1493
I'm willing to accept what Puzzle is saying re: kops for now so I don't see myself voting for him. Although I wonder if Puzzle really knows what he thinks he knows. Kops said that he thought the person he targeted might be aware of it. If Puzzle is thinking that kops targeted him (and since he's still alive kops is likely town) that might be a faulty conclusion. Especially as kops went out of his way to say it.
But I don't know who kops targeted and I don't know what Puzzle knows so that might be completely off base.
Also this:
looks really bad in my opinion. He is saying (without quite directly saying) ignore the case because of who it came from. He even appears to be saying the case is reasonable (no "manipulation"). But it's somehow "too easy."
Agreed with the last sentence. See next point.
I'm trying to simplify weeks worth of debate and rhetoric into something concise that perhaps the general masses will take the time to read through completely. I do want everyone to weigh in on the summarized synopses. I think we're simply asking too much of the everyday mafia player to invest the time it takes go through pages and pages of debate between high-powered analysts. I'll admit that I've struggled a bit keeping focus, and given the amount of massive lurking going on here, it seems others are as well.
@Axel: So, to be clear- you're sticking with the case on Silicon being the best lead at this point?
-and not to lynch Kops. You still seem to have your doubts about him, though.
@Puzzle: is the conclusion Axel is drawing here what's leading you to believe he may be town? As he's already claimed doctor, I don't know what else he could reveal that would be detrimental to the town. If it is the proper conclusion, do you want Kops to reveal whether or not he did target you?
In all fairness, the Silicon wagon is reminding me of the Day one Absolutionis wagon in retrospect - gaining speed quickly as a result of utter frustration with the current game state.
I've got some qualms with AH's play thus far, but this statement was not one of them. I think you're misrepresenting his point here- Abandon Hope seems to be saying that we're looking at Silicon only because we can't come to a consensus on the Kops situation, and it's frustrating to the point where it wouldn't take someone 'manipulating' the town to get off it, it simply would have taken a fresh 'suggestion'. And a wishy-washy lurker certainly fits that bill. He does seem to think the case against Silicon has some merit, just not that it's where we should be focusing our attention- at least that's what I'm getting from it. AH, feel free to clarify if I'm wrong, here, but I don't think he's attacking who it came from at all.
I thought this was the case, and I'm not liking what I read, honestly. Raf, do you really want to lynch the claimed doctor? Can you extrapolate on how this is a good play?
See above about comparison of the Abso/Silicon wagons- I totally agree with you there.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
No no no. Disagree totally. AH is voting me right now. It appears quite clear to me that he is saying that I'm trying to distract the town from myself (not kops) with the Silicon attack.
I don't think AH has expressed an opinion about kops, at least not recently.
I missed that he was voting you. That certainly paints the picture in a different perspective inserting "Axelrod" where I had been assuming "Kops". Similar to what you'd suggested, he does seem to imply we're looking at Silicon for the wrong reason, that being it should be you (Axelrod), instead. Got it.
I'm in much more agreement with AH with my original interpretation than this one.
Going back to look at his posts, it was awhile back, but he agreed with my assessment on Kops that if he truly is the doctor he'll likely meet his demise at the hands of someone other than the town.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Could we at least get a claim out of Silicon? That might spur something.
Unvote Kops, Vote Silicon
I still want Az to explain since when the case against kops as mafia has been weakening. As far as I can tell, it's stronger than ever.
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I think I can definately get behind a silicon wagon at this point in time as there are very few other leads (though I am still behind a Jobie wagon as well). I also agree with the sentiment that a claim would probably be the best course of action right now, at least to push this day forwards. At this point it seems to me this game is moving at about the same pace as Power Rangers mafia (possibly even slower) but with about 10 times as many posts, which is even less fun, as machin shin has said.
My opinion of a Kops is as DYH said. Claimed docs die. And if they dont, then we can lynch them.
@CP: Really? Oh my! What was previously the longest game?
Also, as I said, I've seen a Doc under suspcion live because the scum were hoping for a misslynch (they got it). We should find some criteria other than survival by which to analyze Kops.
I call it "Why was Passdog killed?"
No points for guessing where I'm headed with that one. Straight into WIFOM country I dare say. But I so love it there.
The one that finished right before this one started - Star Trek. So much for that record.
So therefore I'm still standing behind my vote, because he's scummy, I don't really have anyone else I find that scummy, and LAD. !Chucklez! is fine for LAD too, since he's still alive, because I thought someone (SK, mafia, maybe vig) would kill him, though Treigit's brought up the mislynch scenario, which makes sense and makes the situation WIFOM.
Information dump coming up soon. I just reached day 2 in my reread.
I would also like to hear a claim from Silicon. However, I don't want to count the number of votes on him, and I also don't want to cliff push, so I will give him a psuedo-vote-like FOS: Silicon.
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I think the ultimate play would be to have everyone claim whether or not they're a power role, and limit out lynches to one of those. It would... cut down on... People claiming vanilla when they're wagonned... yeah
LAPR FTW!
I claimed doctor at the end of ROOTK mafia. I was lying. You're far too trusting.
kops' doctor claim is extremely unconvincing to me, and he's said nothing and done nothing that would convince me he might actually be a townie doctor. Apart from all the behaviour which none of his defenders seem to want to try and explain (but you're doing an awfully good job of ignoring), what's he done to help the town? Az' argument is that he's probably the cult-leader type of scum and we must lynch a mafia scum tonight, which at least is an argument if not one I agree with. But trying to pull out the "kops' claim is true" card? Back it up, if you dare.
kops' last post. What's he doing here?
1) kops at one stage hinted that his protection target could back him up. This is, of course, just one of his lies. Axelrod followed up on that point (good thing too, I'd forgotten it). kops instantly backpedals again. In fact, he was just "hoping" that his protection target would know. So nothing testable and no penalty for kops if the person doesn't know. HOW CONVENIENT.
2) Wants to just bandwagon silicon and make him claim, just because. But this time he makes sure to mention Jobie because I called him out last time for not being consistent about attacking Jobie.
I can read kops' posts like a book at this point. Lynch him and finish this day, seriously. He's scum. Guaranteed.
Weakening? Not particularly. I think it's more accurately described as superficial and inconclusive, as it stands.
The cult charge is somewhat weakened, at least if we believe Mosschop and Treigit. Lene, the supposed cult leader, is the God of Humility, not time. So, according to the claimed cultists, "time" wasn't a cult breadcrumb.
Misrepping me, again. The cult argument is somewhat weaker now, I'd say, although the sources are obviously a little biased. I've stated several times now in my arguments with you that that's my stance.
This one probably wasn't on purpose though, I don't see how it benefits you much at least.
So, your theory is that he was going to count on one of his mafia buddies to confirm him?
You're twisting every one of his actions to paint the picture you want it to(the same accusation that Axelrod attempted to hang on me, ironically). But none of them are conclusive, and there is little evidence to explain any of his claim-related gaffes have a basis in scumhood.
It might be bad play, but it certainly hasn't been helping him.
Ok, that's getting stronger, although you're still twisting the language to suit your purposes ("just because").
Why am I getting this mysterous sense of Deja Vu?
Oh yeah:
That's why.
Pseudo-vote Rafaelk, Vote Azrael.
Guess so. Sue me for not wanting to gank our potential doctor? Those situations are so far from similar, it's absurd. That was an endgame ploy you made in an attempt to win the game- this is day 2.
I'm buying the crappy explanation of the breadcrumb back as kops' way of saying "hey, I think I know who you are". Given his dedication to the idea of getting his breadcrumb out there as a result of the game you modded, Raf, I can see him making this poor play. Also, he did breadcrumb Arvoreen, and frankly, looking at the literature, I don't see this as a scum role. He hasn't been counter-claimed on either point, and we have seen D&D gods. Sure, I might be gullible, but it's not built on complete and utter speculation (that he is scum pretending to be the townie person Treigit could have been seeking out?). Even the explanation that he recruited Treigit and knew was a Time-related god is far more believeable, hence the breadcrumb, and at that point, he's the Cult Leader, and I'm in agreement with Azrael that we need to hit killing scum.
I'll wait for Puzzle to answer my question on this before jumping to this conclusion, thanks. Again, as a result of flavor from your very own game, Kops suspects his target may be notified. Not the greatest assumption in the world on his part- but it certainly explains what he could have PMed DM about, no?
This is not a point in his favor, agreed.
I can read kops' posts like a book at this point. Lynch him and finish this day, seriously. He's scum. Guaranteed.[/quote]
Dammit- Az beat me to it.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Chucklez has gone AWOL again. He never answered my question.
Raf: don't "guarantee" anything your not sure about. I'm not even guaranteeing Silicon is scum, though I like my odds. What about Puzzle and his 99% certainty? It would seem one of you is overstating his position.
More seriously, I think we are finally going in a promising direction. Patterns of scummy behavior in an experienced player = scum.
No. My theory is that he made it up so people would go "oh, he's a confirmable doc, good, let's look elsewhere", and it would have worked if Axelrod hadn't actually asked him to confirm it.
You're twisting every one of his actions to paint the picture you want it to(the same accusation that Axelrod attempted to hang on me, ironically). But none of them are conclusive, and there is little evidence to explain any of his claim-related gaffes have a basis in scumhood.
It might be bad play, but it certainly hasn't been helping him.[/quote]
It is bad play and it's not helping him, but the guy is doing nothing but lie and mislead and at some point I expect people to ask themselves "why would a townie consistently act like this?".
You say little evidence of scumhood? I would say that his inability to be straight with us is strong evidence of scumhood. That's where the LAL rule comes from.
Oh, and the MD lynch wasn't bad. I feel that bandwagon was justified. Before you get too righteous, so did you (well, of course you did because you knew he was town etc etc).
Especially before you get too righteous, I'll point out I strongly defended Abso while others tried to lynch him (not naming names.. YET). Abso was town.
The reason I bring up Abso right now is because Abso's vanilla claim was verified, by Cyan. We had evidence Abso was telling the truth, but certain people still wanted him lynched. Compare that to right now, where we have evidence kops is lying but apparently that's not good enough.
Double standards much?
It helped when I trying to get bateleur on day 1 of Trek *shrugs* I'm sure enough. No-one can be 100% sure in these games, and the downfall right now is that half the people here aren't willing to commit until they are 100% sure, and with scum/misguided townies out defending anything that moves (I'd almost guarantee Az at this point too, he's been incredibly obstructionist and unproductive all day) no-one's going to be 100% sure.
Anyway, definitely done now, and have read what I missed.
Axel: What was your question?
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
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Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Azrael (1)- Azrael
Jobie (3)- kops723, arimnaes, DYH
kops723 (4)- carrion pigeons, Treigit, RafaelK, MMoD
RafaelK (4)- Puzzle, Crop Circles, Mosschop, Abandon Hope
silicon (3)- Axelrod, Machin Shin, Kenji
Not Voting (7)- krashbot, Jobie, silicon, bluesoul, aurorasparrow, Chucklez, Xyre
Effective Immediately, Enigma91 replaces bluesoul
I'm about a quarter of the way through day one so it'll be a while before I have anything meaningful.
I did not target Puzzle, nor (like I said) does my pm imply that my target would know I targetted them. Of course, there is the possibility that I was redirected although there's nothing to imply this since the person I did target didn't die (obviously... since I asked if anyone thought I may have targetted them) and I didn't even get a reply pm at all, which I thought was kind of odd b/c I looked at the post-game for D_M's last game and he seemed to be sending reply pms to everyone.
Anyway, long story short, I don't know why puzzle received that info.
First of all, does anyone actually recall when/where Lene came from in our discussion? If it started with Treigit, after we already knew about Glasswright gods, then it means very little. I seem to recall that Abso was the first Glasswright, wasn't he? Saying that the case against kops as cult is weaker because the cultists have claimed a name that may or may not have anything to do with them is an insignificant point.
Of course, I may be misremembering, and there might be some reason to think that Lene is real that I don't recall. Can anyone point that out?
I have to leave, but I'll comment on the Puzzle/kops situation soon.
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So I'm going to go ahead and just post some of the public knowledge to make sure I have it straight, and if I got it wrong will someone please correct me.
Kops = Arvoreeen doc
me = cop
treigit = cultist to lene(vanilla), previously lealean (or however it's spelt) a vanilla elf god of time
mosschops = the other cultist to lene (vanilla)
Chuckie = faith healer( I'm guessing doc that only works some of the time)
puzzle = confirmed townie by myself
kenji = another doc?
Just confirmation for myself.
Anyways from my first runthrough the players I'm most comfortable going after are Sillicon, Rafel they are the two players that I believe have contributed little to the disscussion and, in my experience, are people that I have an impossible time getting a read on.
That is by no means my definitive opinion just the one I have after a first read through. fos: Sillicon, Rafel
I'll be on later tonight and likely tomorrow so I'll have some more to add then.
@CP: As far as I can tell lene is the Cult leader, and this has been confirmed by both mosschops and treigit.
That "breadcrumb" doesn't appear to make any sense either as a crumb that you were targeted by something silver. Or that it was a protection. So what is going on here?
Not happy.
Puzzle was on the list anyway due to the Abso vigging, but that apparently backfired attempt to gild the lily just shot him to #1 (but in other news, kops looks much much better... see what happens when you actually tell the truth?).
Yes, well that's the problem. My whole point was that Treigit and Mosschop both have an excellent reason to be lying. In fact, beyond excellent; fantastic. Unless we have some kind of outside confirmation that Lene exists in the game, we have about as much reason to trust Mosschop and Treigit on this point as we do to trust those people who say that apes evolved from humans.
As for Puzzle, we first have to keep in mind that he was investigated as innocent. He is presumably not lying. Which makes kops' claim as doc quite a bit less believable, since we seem to have yet another doc (who isn't Kenji).
Lastly, unless I'm missing something, Kenji is not the doc. IIRC, he specifically said that he didn't know anything about the silver that Puzzle was talking about, and that it didn't have anything to do with his role. All we do know is that he targeted Puzzle.
Can someone explain why we aren't lynching kops now?
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Where the hell does this leave us?
Interesting post surfaced on the same page as Kenji and Puzzle's "silver" dialogue:
Answers, Mosschop?
Ok. So your theory is that he has the brains of a squirrel hopped up on cocaine.
Lie and mislead who? The town, or the mafia in their search for power roles?
See above.
You're going aside from the point. The issue I was raising was your posting style, and your rationales for the MD case, both of which were faulty. It's not who, it's why and how.
Mm hmm. You're definitely taking the high road again. Showing remarkable restraint by not even THINKING of throwing in some attacks on the source.
Claim information != alignment confirmation. Bad comparison.
El. Oh. El. So if I support the wagons you support, I'm being productive, and if I push for your lynch, I'm obstructionist? I like that logic.:rofl:
Add voting for a currently confirmed townie, via cop investigation, to Rafaelk's list of tells.
Pseudo-vote Rafaelk, Vote Azrael.
Regarding obstructionist, it's not until recently that you started pushing for my lynch. What did you do for the 800 or so posts before that?
The Abso situation is NOT a bad comparison at all. The Abso wagon was based on poor logic and part of his claim was verified. Yes, he wasn't cop-verified or anything (and neither is kops), but at least something he said came up true and yet you had it in for him. Whereas you defend kops' lies by saying he'd have to be stupid to do so as mafia (WIFOM), he's lying to protect his (exposed) (claimed) power role, etc etc. I like that attempt to exaggerate things out of the park with the coked-up squirrel line, btw.
Ok. We'll ignore your scum tell just this once. *extends hand*
Try to lynch Axelrod?
Telling the truth != confirmation.
LAL is obviously not a hard-and-fast rule. You have to examine the reasons why a lie might be told. You should ask Cropcircles about that sometime.
I'm not saying he'd have to be stupid to do it as mafia, I'm saying there's no point in doing it as mafia, so it's not one of his tells.
Thank you, I was proud of that one.
But that's exactly what he'd have to be, if he thought for an instant that he could get away with claiming confirmability without having anyone to confirm him. Again, you're speculating wildly to protect your argument, and none of your suggestions are credible.
Vote Azrael.
@CP: Ignoring your blasphemous comment about evolution that makes a lot of sense, but really with multiple members of the cult outed we can control it's size for at least a little while. So I'm going to agree with AZ on ignoring the cult for our target. But that is something that needs to be addressed, likely tomorrow.
I'm extremly confused by the kenji/puzzle thing.
@CC: when you mentiond the redirector did you say you were notified that your target had been altered?
That would seem to be the case. So we have a claimed doctor who can't be confirmed, and a claimed non-doctor who can protect people. I'm so confused.
Oh? So you support the theory that apes evolved from humans?:rolleyes:
So you're suggesting that we ought to, what? Have the vig kill off recruits for us while we lynch others? This argument doesn't make much sense to me.
What is the difference between addressing the cult today or tomorrow?
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um, I was being sarcastic there....
No, my point is that if we don't deal with the cult before it becomes a problem we can have the vig kill off known recruits to keep from losing, as a last resort sort of thing. And by not spending time lynching cultists we can focus on finding mafia.
Well we'll have more information so we'll have a better chance at finding the CL since it appears to me to not be worth it going after vanilla cultists.
Ya, I was, but mommy had to tell me! That bad redirector person made me zap myself, so it was kinda obv.
[The Family]