No, that's precisely what you did. I've been poking at DC for multiple game days; I agree with him that's it hard to see your attack on him as anything other than trying to use my townie cred to save yourself. I don't see much of a reason not to lynch you today.
I've been vaguely suspicious of him for a while too. Probably not as long, and almost certainly not as vocal as you because I was haring after Cyan first and zindabad and Seppel later, but I don't see how my play today can be interpreted as hanging on your coattails. My real push on dC is because of the inconsistency with his copier ability. That, I'd safely say, isn't a barn.
(Since I've been arguing elsewhere where people have been using different definitions than me and I haven't noticed until way too late where they're basically just saying 'no u', I want to make sure we're using the same definition of barn. Basically a yes-man who tries to hide behind someone else?)
Cyan, when you get abilities with your search thingy, do you see if they're inherited, like we do when we see role PMs on death? Follow-up being obviously to confirm if dC's abilities are both inherited like he just said.
Quote from dC »
As for rider's role, as I mentioned previously, I simply forgot about him.
So you say, but you must admit it's a reasonable point against you. It's not like we can check if you really forgot...
As for the other point... given where I was in the post count, what did you expect me to do about the 6 point ability? Especially when it has the same restrictions that DYH's version had (no kill-related, vote-related, RB-related, etc.), making it essentially a really gimped backup?
Well, maybe.
My toy theory was going to be that you inherited that ability when you were passed the Maelstrom Gate, which would actually give you a chance of having the points to use it and be elegant design. That you have confirmed you did inherit the ability helps to justify that theory a little more.
No, I don't get told specifically whether or not they're inherited.
I can't really see any reason to lie about that, though. It doesn't seem like it matters either way.
Also, how could DYH have passed the Maelstrom Gate to DC? Nothing in the description of the gate indicates this capability. In fact, even with item sharing enabled, I'd be willing to bet that DYH couldn't give away the Maelstrom Gate. His whole role is tailored around that item. I suspect that, if someone had gained the Gate from killing DYH, their role would become /Maelstrom like his was. I'm not sure what that means in context of DYH being lynched, though.
Once I knew the number that corresponded to zindabad, I could talk about targeting him. I also talked about targeting people the multiple times I proved that I can get roles without targeting people and today when I talked about how I could have made up fake results.
This is reasonable, I suppose. Although I have no idea why in the world you mentioned retargeting in the first place, given that it's patently pointless for a rolecop to retarget the same person.
What do we gain by acting like only two scum are left? What we lose is potentially the game, so I'd like for there to be a decently-sized upside.
I'd like to ask what that 'upside' would be, in fact.
If we in fact have three scum left, then barring some strange turn of events, this is LyLo. If you are town, and you truly believe this to be the case, then you're justifiably alarmed at the prospect of dying, because you'd lose. This much is fine.
But any other town player dying results in a loss for a theoretical town-you as well. Which should naturally make a townie-you just as concerned about lynching another town player as for your own death. I'd expect more reasonable, more careful, more grounds-up play from somebody from that perspective.
This is not what I'm seeing from your responses now, or indeed your play today.
Yeah, that Seppel. I thought he was scum, but I highly doubt that the mafia took "ewie thinks Seppel is scum" into their consideration, unless they really wanted to make me look like a fool today. (Hint: they didn't)
And if you're trying to push for one more mislynch why wouldn't you kill the guy with a lot of sway in the town who very well might save the person you want to be going after?
No, it's analysis of claims. But no matter what you want to call it doesn't change its validity.
Semantics. 'Claim analysis' covers a much wider range than looking at point costs and trying to call people out on it. DYH was caught on claim analysis, when Cyan pointed out that his actions didn't make sense from a town perspective. Your 'claim analysis' here is quite literally the most superficial and unreliable facet of the entire concept of 'claim analysis'.
In addition to, you know, being totally wrong. But you ignored that, in your desperate and zealous push to not die.
It is a reasonable argument to make. Your ability having zero use as long as the town performs what was probably the only obvious action this game is unique among all the people in this game.
That's not impossible, but it gives the town as a whole no way to confirm your ability. Also in the months since rider's death I'm surprised that you never tried to look up the roles people had and get stonewalled by rider.
I did so once, upon first receiving the aspect, and only checked previous games, finding nothing of significant use. Roles in this game, having been revealed upon death, stayed in my memory.
Where some people who claimed are the ones who hadn't and people were telling you to claim. I mean, not fully claiming after the town yelled at you multiple times to actually claim what your abilities are isn't less suspicious or anything, but I can replace this contention with that.
...retconning, hm? The only person that 'yelled at me multiple times to claim' was you, and that was after at least two posts wilfully ignoring my previous claim posts and continuing to ask me to claim yet again.
Yup. Because Arim had an ability that didn't cost points but got a couple points to use the one that did. And Raf too, if I'm remembering correctly. I mean, Arim, RR, Ash, Cubus and I think raf all had abilities that cost points and just enough points to use them instead of a point generator.
...fine. Let's put this bovine faeces argument to rest right now.
Give Points: desCoures to RobRoy Transfer Points: desCoures to RobRoy
Donate Points: desCoures to RobRoy
...or whatever the right syntax is, let me know what the heck is right.
Your ability costs 6. DYH's ability costs 5. This is a suspicious thing.
...I'd say this is the ultimate proof that you're not interested in catching scum, only in not dying.
The very section you quote says 'see above'. I began my post with a clarification stating that my version of the Copier ability was permanent and irreversible, unlike DYH's one-shot version.
You never paid attention to either the very beginning of my post, or the line you quote that references the same very beginning of my post, choosing instead to continue to jump all over your perceived 'suspicious thing', which I highly suspect became your point of emphasis because of RafK stating it was a valid concern. You now state that the main thrust of your current 'suspicion' of me has to do with the difference in points between my ability and DYH's, which is both blatantly wrong as proven by the very clarification you completely failed to notice in your desperate push to not die and would require both me and Cyan to be scum (or Cyan to just be horrifically stupid and me to be horrifically stupid along with him) to be a reasonable basis for suspicion. In your entire horrifically bad 'weird things' post, you yourself say that you haven't bothered reading carefully... but have squarely set your sights on myself and Cyan by extension, showing none of the careful play that someone truly worried about the town's chances would be showing.
If I had any reservations about you being scum, this ended it.
Well, you're the only one who kept on getting confused and you're the only one who, when he didn't understand how my ability works, jumped into the thread with an "AHA! I CAUGHT YOU NOW!"
.....what?!
Quote from desCoures »
@Uncle Istvun
...what? 'Unless you want to retarget someone'?
Just how many more clauses to your ability are you intending to pull out of your ass here? Because I don't remember anything of the sort being mentioned before.
This is an expression of disbelief and slight frustration. What this is not is a blatant attempt at accusation as you seem to want to portray it as.
Also, Mr. Pot, I have a distinct problem with your hue, given this:
See, just when I'm feeling good about lynching UI you have to go and do that. This is the exact defense I'd expect from you as a scum pair. These are all things I actually find suspicious. It's also rather interesting that all these reasons are behaviors Cyan has had towards you; you, notably, have had practically nothing to say about Cyan all game.
* Ash LV-426 curses kpaca.
It would have been really nice to lock Raf into another vig tonight.
Kraj
...I really have no idea what to say to you about this. It's WIFOM, I know, but to me linking to each other so completely blatantly would be nothing short of horrible scum play.
As for 'nothing to say about Cyan' -- if this is the case, it's because I haven't found him scummy at all. About the only real questionable point I recall would be him taking his vote off of DYH, but considering that it was him noting DYH's disconnect between his actions and his claimed town mindset that led to DYH's lynch in the first place, I don't find that sufficient grounds for suspicion. (I believe I noted yesterday as well that the above point led me to believe Cyan very strongly to be town.)
Also, from the viewpoint of myself as town (which I know you have reservations about, no matter how unfounded I think they are), it makes absolutely no sense for Cyan to have been defending me so hard and so long as scum. To me, if he was scum, I should have been dead long ago in order to shore up his townie cred.
My toy theory was going to be that you inherited that ability when you were passed the Maelstrom Gate, which would actually give you a chance of having the points to use it and be elegant design. That you have confirmed you did inherit the ability helps to justify that theory a little more.
? DYH died day 3. I inherited the ability day 2. How does this connect?
Also, see above at my attempt to give RobRoy points. Given that Cyan targeted me, if I have the Maelstrom Gate, I cannot have no points. Logical?
@RobRoy
Please confirm your point total after the above.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
It seems to me like the lynch today is a choice between UI and DC. The only real problem I have with this choice is that the arguments against UI seem play related while the arguments against DC seem more role related. In a game where roles mean nothing, that puts me leaning towards a UI lynch unless someone can point out some really good *play related* reasons why DC is the better choice today.
It seems to me like the lynch today is a choice between UI and DC. The only real problem I have with this choice is that the arguments against UI seem play related while the arguments against DC seem more role related. In a game where roles mean nothing, that puts me leaning towards a UI lynch unless someone can point out some really good *play related* reasons why DC is the better choice today.
What does you being Seppel have to do with anything? You're confirmed town, so if you say 'I got X points from this person and gave them to this(other) person', we can trust you.
What does you being Seppel have to do with anything? You're confirmed town, so if you say 'I got X points from this person and gave them to this(other) person', we can trust you.
My not being seppel means that I don't want to be a central repository for stuff regardless of whether such a plan makes sense.
I'll leave it to you to determine why putting all points in my hands may not be the best of all possible plans.
<Point Sharing> While enabled, all players may donate points to other players freely, using the format Donate: Playername X Points. When disabled, not all players may transfer points freely.
Mod: Is Point-Sharing limited to in-thread if you don't have any point-sharing ability which says you can do it out of thread?
Mm hmm.
It seems pretty clear here that point sharing is done in-thread unless you have a special ability to share points (like rider did). But now you're saying that it is done only by PM. What gives?
Kraj
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
We were in Inheritance Mafia. People thought we were CropCircles. We can die happy now.
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
For balance reasons, they will not be confirmed in-thread.
Error. Error. Error.
Showers of sparks erupt from the hangar computer-terminal. Kraj leaps back, narrowly avoiding being singed. The screen flickers wildly, garbled images dancing chaotically.
Finally it settles, and a message blinks intermittently:
Computer-enabled point-sharing transfers are in-thread, not by PM, and use the format: [Donate: Playername X Points]. Computer-enabled point transfers will not be publicly confirmed by the moderator. However, you may contact the moderator for private confirmation.
This is reasonable, I suppose. Although I have no idea why in the world you mentioned retargeting in the first place, given that it's patently pointless for a rolecop to retarget the same person.
No it's not. I get the active aspect of the person I hit. So if I want to know what someone I've targeted and am suspicious of is doing tonight, I'll retarget them. If I wanted to know more of someone's aspects, I'd retarget them.
Quote from dC »
Don't play dumb. You're harping after me because Kraj keeps bringing me up.
Hey, after this accusation became anything more than a collection of mafia buzzwords when kraj made his post, I gave a more in depth response where I say what I've done, say what barning is and show that the two are different. It would behoove you to look at that.
Quote from dC »
I'd like to ask what that 'upside' would be, in fact.
If we in fact have three scum left, then barring some strange turn of events, this is LyLo. If you are town, and you truly believe this to be the case, then you're justifiably alarmed at the prospect of dying, because you'd lose. This much is fine.
But any other town player dying results in a loss for a theoretical town-you as well. Which should naturally make a townie-you just as concerned about lynching another town player as for your own death. I'd expect more reasonable, more careful, more grounds-up play from somebody from that perspective.
This is not what I'm seeing from your responses now, or indeed your play today.
I don't believe that thre's an upside to assuming two scum. That's why I'm not operating under that assumption and I don't think there's a townie motivation for doing so.
Here's what this is resulting in for me. My concerns are, in order:
1) Don't get lynched
2) Get the scummiest player lynched
3) Get information that will be of use tomorrow
But frankly, I would be willing to vote literally anyone else and do literally anything (within the rules, of course) to make sure I don't get lynched. If, hypothetically, three people claimed scum and voted someone else and I had only the choice between getting that person lynched or getting myself lynched, I vould vote that other guy. Because there's a possibility it was a gambit and he's scum. There's no possibility that I am.
However, I don't think I've been all that cavalier today. I'm very possibly playing differently than you or most of Salv plays, but that isn't necessarily reckless and it isn't scummy.
Quote from dC »
....Seppel. With 'a lot of sway in the town'.
Are you even reading what you're writing?
Yes. I happen to think that the person who can say "Now we're lynching X" and get something like 3 or 4 votes to move onto them has a lot of sway.
Quote from dC »
Semantics. 'Claim analysis' covers a much wider range than looking at point costs and trying to call people out on it. DYH was caught on claim analysis, when Cyan pointed out that his actions didn't make sense from a town perspective. Your 'claim analysis' here is quite literally the most superficial and unreliable facet of the entire concept of 'claim analysis'.
In addition to, you know, being totally wrong. But you ignored that, in your desperate and zealous push to not die.
My claim argument against you is, broadly speaking, two-fold. Your claim is not believable and your behavior does not match your claim. These both lead to the conclusion that you're lying about your ability.
Quote from dC »
Take it up with the mod, not with me.
Frankly, this accusation isn't one you can respond to. Everyone else needs to individually look at your claim and decide how likely it is to exist.
Quote from dC »
I did so once, upon first receiving the aspect, and only checked previous games, finding nothing of significant use. Roles in this game, having been revealed upon death, stayed in my memory.
Two things here. First I need to make sure I'm getting your timeline correct. You got both of your abilities right after Axelrod died?
And secondly: Are you trying to say that you remembered every detail that mattered about every dead person from the middle of day 2 to (at least) day 4? You never once had to look at the original post to grab roles, but at the same time you completely forgot about rider? That boggles my mind.
Quote from dC »
...retconning, hm? The only person that 'yelled at me multiple times to claim' was you, and that was after at least two posts wilfully ignoring my previous claim posts and continuing to ask me to claim yet again.
Hmm, apparently you're right. Seppel asked you to claim anything relevent, you claimed nothing that matters, I asked for a claim from you, you said w/e and claimed that you stared at corpses, kraj pointed out that's not a claim, and then you claimed to rolecop dead people. I apologize for getting this wrong.
Quote from dC »
...fine. Let's put this bovine faeces argument to rest right now.
Give Points: desCoures to RobRoy Transfer Points: desCoures to RobRoy
Donate Points: desCoures to RobRoy
...or whatever the right syntax is, let me know what the heck is right.
Well, RobRoy? Feel any different?
I'm not saying you have a secret way to gain points. I'm saying that you don't have the 6 cost ability.
Quote from dC »
...you are so grasping at straws it isn't funny. Flavour? Really?
Maybe it so, I don't know, in case the town never turned on Role PMs for so reason, I'd be able to garner some information on current roles?
This was a random aside because it felt weird that your two aspects had nothing to do with each other. Even though this has nothing to do with it, I just remembered that Raf's abilities are kinda similar in that they only sync up with a lot of stretching.
Quote from dC »
...I'd say this is the ultimate proof that you're not interested in catching scum, only in not dying.
The very section you quote says 'see above'. I began my post with a clarification stating that my version of the Copier ability was permanent and irreversible, unlike DYH's one-shot version.
You never paid attention to either the very beginning of my post, or the line you quote that references the same very beginning of my post, choosing instead to continue to jump all over your perceived 'suspicious thing', which I highly suspect became your point of emphasis because of RafK stating it was a valid concern. You now state that the main thrust of your current 'suspicion' of me has to do with the difference in points between my ability and DYH's, which is both blatantly wrong as proven by the very clarification you completely failed to notice in your desperate push to not die and would require both me and Cyan to be scum (or Cyan to just be horrifically stupid and me to be horrifically stupid along with him) to be a reasonable basis for suspicion. In your entire horrifically bad 'weird things' post, you yourself say that you haven't bothered reading carefully... but have squarely set your sights on myself and Cyan by extension, showing none of the careful play that someone truly worried about the town's chances would be showing.
If I had any reservations about you being scum, this ended it.
Yeah, I'd skimmed your post because I had class in like half an hour. Man why didn't you say this as soon as I started this whole thing?
Quote from dC »
.....what?!
This is an expression of disbelief and slight frustration. What this is not is a blatant attempt at accusation as you seem to want to portray it as.
Also, Mr. Pot, I have a distinct problem with your hue, given this:
This is an 'AHA I CAUGHT YOU NOW'. Blatant hypocrisy FTL?
Apart from the stylistic differences (I like being all shouty and you like to be more studied) these both serve the same purpose. However, the motivations are different. When a mafia member makes a case on someone, they need to twist innocent mistakes and lack of clarity into deliberate distortions. Your post does that. (the 'Just how many more clauses to your ability are you intending to pull out of your ass here? ' bit is just a reskinned way of asking when I stopped beating my wife.) My post, on the other hand, is dealing with a claim that contradicts known information.
Computer-enabled point-sharing transfers are in-thread, not by PM, and use the format: [Donate: Playername X Points]. Computer-enabled point transfers will not be publicly confirmed by the moderator. However, you may contact the moderator for private confirmation.
Okeydokey, that means where right where we expected to be.
Any reason not to have each player take turns donating a point to RobRoy and then waiting for him to confirm whether he got a point?
Kraj
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
We were in Inheritance Mafia. People thought we were CropCircles. We can die happy now.
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
...fine. Let's put this bovine faeces argument to rest right now.
Give Points: desCoures to RobRoy Transfer Points: desCoures to RobRoy
Donate Points: desCoures to RobRoy
...or whatever the right syntax is, let me know what the heck is right.
Well, RobRoy? Feel any different?
<snip> @RobRoy
Please confirm your point total after the above.
I have no points, still. Az actually sent me a preemptive "you have no points" around this time yesterday, probably anticipating the inevitable question.
Since everyone publically has zero points to give, then it seems plain then that we should all be doing something like
Donate: RobRoy 1 point
(I don't want to run across some kind of clever thing where a donation of more points than you have "fails"; if anyone successfully donates 1 point, or refuses to try, that is sufficient to put their head on the block).
Actually, one extra thing before we go through with this:
Az, if someone successfully donates a point to RobRoy via this method, will he be told WHO donated it?
Before you make your decision on how that works, if you say no, I'm going to make us go through a thing of everyone donating one at a time and waiting for RobRoy to verify before the next person donates, and won't that be painful for everyone? Since the workaround is there, I suggest you say yes
Since everyone publically has zero points to give, then it seems plain then that we should all be doing something like
Donate: RobRoy 1 point
(I don't want to run across some kind of clever thing where a donation of more points than you have "fails"; if anyone successfully donates 1 point, or refuses to try, that is sufficient to put their head on the block).
Actually, one extra thing before we go through with this:
Az, if someone successfully donates a point to RobRoy via this method, will he be told WHO donated it?
Before you make your decision on how that works, if you say no, I'm going to make us go through a thing of everyone donating one at a time and waiting for RobRoy to verify before the next person donates, and won't that be painful for everyone? Since the workaround is there, I suggest you say yes
Jesus tapdancing christ, is it REQUIRED that we come up with at least five idiotic plans that fall flat on their face if the scum are only moderately to dramatically brain injured and not merely completely brain dead?
The obvious hole here, for those not following along, is if the scum do have a secret way of moving points, they can make it look like someone who doesn't have any points does...
Jesus tapdancing christ, is it REQUIRED that we come up with at least five idiotic plans that fall flat on their face if the scum are only moderately to dramatically brain injured and not merely completely brain dead?
The obvious hole here, for those not following along, is if the scum do have a secret way of moving points, they can make it look like someone who doesn't have any points does...
So what? The obvious hole in your scenario is the player the scum target will almost certainly be informed of receiving a point, at which point they can claim it. Then it'll be up to the town to decide whether to believe that player or not, we'll have a control over a point, and get an extra lynch today.
The other thing which makes your reaction overblown is it's completely unknown as to whether they have that ability. It's perfectly plausible your role was unique.
And I have a hard time beleiving Cyan of all people wouldn't want to milk this for whatever we can.
Kraj
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
We were in Inheritance Mafia. People thought we were CropCircles. We can die happy now.
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
So what? The obvious hole in your scenario is the player the scum target will almost certainly be informed of receiving a point, at which point they can claim it. Then it'll be up to the town to decide whether to believe that player or not, we'll have a control over a point, and get an extra lynch today.
The other thing which makes your reaction overblown is it's completely unknown as to whether they have that ability. It's perfectly plausible your role was unique.
And I have a hard time beleiving Cyan of all people wouldn't want to milk this for whatever we can.
Kraj
Plan:
Players use the donate syntax to prove they don't have a point.
Flaw: This in no way proves they don't have a point, because it's possible that points can be given secretly.
Conclusion:
Plan flawed, lynch UI.
Your post seems not to reach the correct conclusion, are we working on different data sets?
I don't understand why you're having such a hard time with this. Who cares if the scum move a point secretly? If they give it to a townie, we now have a point at our disposal. If they move it among themselves, we've done nothing to change the status quo. What's the problem here?
And IF there is a scum who does have a point and the scum don't have a way to move or use up that point, then we catch them. It's a no-risk, all-reward plan. Worst-case scenario is we've wasted time. But it's not like there's a danger of not reaching a lynch decision before deadline.
Kraj
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
We were in Inheritance Mafia. People thought we were CropCircles. We can die happy now.
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
I don't understand why you're having such a hard time with this. Who cares if the scum move a point secretly? If they give it to a townie, we now have a point at our disposal. If they move it among themselves, we've done nothing to change the status quo. What's the problem here?
And IF there is a scum who does have a point and the scum don't have a way to move or use up that point, then we catch them. It's a no-risk, all-reward plan. Worst-case scenario is we've wasted time. But it's not like there's a danger of not reaching a lynch decision before deadline.
Kraj
Ok, so Player A claims to have no points. They type the donate point syntax to RobRoy; RobRoy claims to have received a point.
HOW DO WE USE THIS INFORMATION? Is there a conclusion you feel comfortable making based on this?
Or is it crap?
Let's get on to lynching someone and stop dicking around with foolish points ideas.
rider, I think you're missing that if RobRoy receives a point, we can use it to nuke someone during the day as well as the regular lynch
I'm thinking there is a non-zero chance that this plan is designed to make sure the person nuked is not based on play but their perceived presence of absence of points.
I'm steadfastly against killing someone or making decisions on what appears to be the points a player had/has.
I think that Rider is saying that it's possible that some scum could just secretly move a point to RR when someone else is supposed to be doing so, to make it look like that person was lying about not having a point at their disposal.
But frankly, I think that the odds of that are extremely low.
I guess it's fine to go through the motions and see if RR ends up with some points somehow. Like Kraj said, all it does is use up some time, and we're just sitting around anyway.
Feel free to start then (or go second, I guess). Unless you want to wait for Az to show up and confirm that yes, alright, he will confirm to RobRoy who sent a point (if a point is sent).
I'm thinking there is a non-zero chance that this plan is designed to make sure the person nuked is not based on play but their perceived presence of absence of points.
I'm steadfastly against killing someone or making decisions on what appears to be the points a player had/has.
I'm for making decisions on who is acting scummy.
Isn't having a point right now a bit scummy, though? First, there's the possibility that the person with the point has already said in-thread that they have none. If that's the case, Lynch All Liars and such. Even if they haven't stated that, they still then have to argue why they felt keeping the point for themself was worth more than, effectively, a bonus lynch. I am fine with this scheme.
Isn't having a point right now a bit scummy, though? First, there's the possibility that the person with the point has already said in-thread that they have none. If that's the case, Lynch All Liars and such. Even if they haven't stated that, they still then have to argue why they felt keeping the point for themself was worth more than, effectively, a bonus lynch. I am fine with this scheme.
That's kind of my objection though isn't it? We really don't get to know whether someone doesn't have a point, we are just hoping this scheme doesn't backfire. We don't get a LAL out of "finding" someone with a point, instead we get a "lynch and hope" scenario.
I've said my peace, I think this plan is perilous, I'm not about to bang my head into a wall repeating it.
I agree that the plan could seriously backfire and lose the game for us. This plan is right up there with aggressive vigging plans in my book of bad ideas. I seriously don't think we should be jumping into this. With that said however, I don't mind transferring points I don't have to whomever the town agrees on.
I agree that the plan could seriously backfire and lose the game for us. This plan is right up there with aggressive vigging plans in my book of bad ideas.
That's kind of my objection though isn't it? We really don't get to know whether someone doesn't have a point, we are just hoping this scheme doesn't backfire. We don't get a LAL out of "finding" someone with a point, instead we get a "lynch and hope" scenario.
I've said my peace, I think this plan is perilous, I'm not about to bang my head into a wall repeating it.
It's been made very clear that I can make use of a point to give us an extra lynch, and that I need the donation of a point to do this today. If someone has a point and hasn't come forward with it, there are two possibilities: either they are scum and don't want to enable the extra lynch, or they are a townie who believes they have a better use of a point than the lynch. Either way, I want them forced out into the open. In the first case, I want them dead; in the second case, they have a large amount of 'splaining to do, because a point for a lynch is huge at this stage of the game.
It's been made very clear that I can make use of a point to give us an extra lynch, and that I need the donation of a point to do this today. If someone has a point and hasn't come forward with it, there are two possibilities: either they are scum and don't want to enable the extra lynch, or they are a townie who believes they have a better use of a point than the lynch. Either way, I want them forced out into the open. In the first case, I want them dead; in the second case, they have a large amount of 'splaining to do, because a point for a lynch is huge at this stage of the game.
YOU SEEM TO NOT BE READING MY POSTS
PLEASE TO BE READING MY THESIS
I'M FINE WITH YOU GETTING ANY POINTS THAT MAY BE AVAILABLE
IN THE CASE A POINT COMES INTO YOUR POSSESSION, I AM NOT FINE WITH DRAWING CONCLUSIONS AS IF THE SOURCE OF THAT POINT.
IN THE CASE A POINT COMES INTO YOUR POSSESSION, I AM NOT FINE WITH DRAWING CONCLUSIONS AS IF THE SOURCE OF THAT POINT.
Fine. Great. No one is saying "autolynch whoever is 'caught' with a point". All that's been said is "there's no drawback to trying to find a point via everyone donating". That's it. Nothing else.
You're objecting to a plan that hasn't been suggested and yelling to stop the current actions because of it.
Relax.
-Kraj
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
We were in Inheritance Mafia. People thought we were CropCircles. We can die happy now.
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
It's been made very clear that I can make use of a point to give us an extra lynch, and that I need the donation of a point to do this today. If someone has a point and hasn't come forward with it, there are two possibilities: either they are scum and don't want to enable the extra lynch, or they are a townie who believes they have a better use of a point than the lynch. Either way, I want them forced out into the open. In the first case, I want them dead; in the second case, they have a large amount of 'splaining to do, because a point for a lynch is huge at this stage of the game.
@Rider: I understand where you're coming from, but it feels like you're overreacting, alot. And I don't really understand that.
As someone who is all but confirmed town, your voice carries alot of weight, but you seem to be getting particularly heated up here, over nothing.
This game has been going on for virtually forever, I've been asked to come back and offer my voice, and I'm seeing folks doing anything they can to game the system rather than you know, make reads on who looks bad to them and ACTUALLY PLAY the game.
I'm not enamored in running around for what may take a few extra weeks to try and ferret out zero extra 'information' about who may or may not have a point when it's pretty clearly an opportunity for a smokescreen to be put up. I think to delay now is to increase my disinterest in the goings on of this game.
I'm fine with everyone saying DONATE to robroy or whatever, but I do not think we should even attempt to incriminate an unknown point source because that line of play seems terrible.
People seem to think that it's a good line of play, but I don't see why some highly suspect piece of *possible* 'information' would be a better thing to work from than the remainder of the thread.
So if we want to get this hair-brained donate to RobRoy scheme done with and get back to playing, fine. But let's not drag this stupidity out any longer than necessary.
(Since I've been arguing elsewhere where people have been using different definitions than me and I haven't noticed until way too late where they're basically just saying 'no u', I want to make sure we're using the same definition of barn. Basically a yes-man who tries to hide behind someone else?)
So you say, but you must admit it's a reasonable point against you. It's not like we can check if you really forgot...
Well, maybe.
My toy theory was going to be that you inherited that ability when you were passed the Maelstrom Gate, which would actually give you a chance of having the points to use it and be elegant design. That you have confirmed you did inherit the ability helps to justify that theory a little more.
I can't really see any reason to lie about that, though. It doesn't seem like it matters either way.
Also, how could DYH have passed the Maelstrom Gate to DC? Nothing in the description of the gate indicates this capability. In fact, even with item sharing enabled, I'd be willing to bet that DYH couldn't give away the Maelstrom Gate. His whole role is tailored around that item. I suspect that, if someone had gained the Gate from killing DYH, their role would become /Maelstrom like his was. I'm not sure what that means in context of DYH being lynched, though.
This is reasonable, I suppose. Although I have no idea why in the world you mentioned retargeting in the first place, given that it's patently pointless for a rolecop to retarget the same person.
Don't play dumb. You're harping after me because Kraj keeps bringing me up.
I'd like to ask what that 'upside' would be, in fact.
If we in fact have three scum left, then barring some strange turn of events, this is LyLo. If you are town, and you truly believe this to be the case, then you're justifiably alarmed at the prospect of dying, because you'd lose. This much is fine.
But any other town player dying results in a loss for a theoretical town-you as well. Which should naturally make a townie-you just as concerned about lynching another town player as for your own death. I'd expect more reasonable, more careful, more grounds-up play from somebody from that perspective.
This is not what I'm seeing from your responses now, or indeed your play today.
....Seppel. With 'a lot of sway in the town'.
Are you even reading what you're writing?
Semantics. 'Claim analysis' covers a much wider range than looking at point costs and trying to call people out on it. DYH was caught on claim analysis, when Cyan pointed out that his actions didn't make sense from a town perspective. Your 'claim analysis' here is quite literally the most superficial and unreliable facet of the entire concept of 'claim analysis'.
In addition to, you know, being totally wrong. But you ignored that, in your desperate and zealous push to not die.
Take it up with the mod, not with me.
I did so once, upon first receiving the aspect, and only checked previous games, finding nothing of significant use. Roles in this game, having been revealed upon death, stayed in my memory.
...retconning, hm? The only person that 'yelled at me multiple times to claim' was you, and that was after at least two posts wilfully ignoring my previous claim posts and continuing to ask me to claim yet again.
...fine. Let's put this bovine faeces argument to rest right now.
Give Points: desCoures to RobRoy
Transfer Points: desCoures to RobRoy
Donate Points: desCoures to RobRoy
...or whatever the right syntax is, let me know what the heck is right.
Well, RobRoy? Feel any different?
...you are so grasping at straws it isn't funny. Flavour? Really?
Maybe it so, I don't know, in case the town never turned on Role PMs for so reason, I'd be able to garner some information on current roles?
...I'd say this is the ultimate proof that you're not interested in catching scum, only in not dying.
The very section you quote says 'see above'. I began my post with a clarification stating that my version of the Copier ability was permanent and irreversible, unlike DYH's one-shot version.
You never paid attention to either the very beginning of my post, or the line you quote that references the same very beginning of my post, choosing instead to continue to jump all over your perceived 'suspicious thing', which I highly suspect became your point of emphasis because of RafK stating it was a valid concern. You now state that the main thrust of your current 'suspicion' of me has to do with the difference in points between my ability and DYH's, which is both blatantly wrong as proven by the very clarification you completely failed to notice in your desperate push to not die and would require both me and Cyan to be scum (or Cyan to just be horrifically stupid and me to be horrifically stupid along with him) to be a reasonable basis for suspicion. In your entire horrifically bad 'weird things' post, you yourself say that you haven't bothered reading carefully... but have squarely set your sights on myself and Cyan by extension, showing none of the careful play that someone truly worried about the town's chances would be showing.
If I had any reservations about you being scum, this ended it.
.....what?!
This is an expression of disbelief and slight frustration. What this is not is a blatant attempt at accusation as you seem to want to portray it as.
Also, Mr. Pot, I have a distinct problem with your hue, given this:
This is an 'AHA I CAUGHT YOU NOW'. Blatant hypocrisy FTL?
@Ash-Kraj
...I really have no idea what to say to you about this. It's WIFOM, I know, but to me linking to each other so completely blatantly would be nothing short of horrible scum play.
As for 'nothing to say about Cyan' -- if this is the case, it's because I haven't found him scummy at all. About the only real questionable point I recall would be him taking his vote off of DYH, but considering that it was him noting DYH's disconnect between his actions and his claimed town mindset that led to DYH's lynch in the first place, I don't find that sufficient grounds for suspicion. (I believe I noted yesterday as well that the above point led me to believe Cyan very strongly to be town.)
Also, from the viewpoint of myself as town (which I know you have reservations about, no matter how unfounded I think they are), it makes absolutely no sense for Cyan to have been defending me so hard and so long as scum. To me, if he was scum, I should have been dead long ago in order to shore up his townie cred.
@RafaelK
True. It is, however, what happened.
? DYH died day 3. I inherited the ability day 2. How does this connect?
Also, see above at my attempt to give RobRoy points. Given that Cyan targeted me, if I have the Maelstrom Gate, I cannot have no points. Logical?
@RobRoy
Please confirm your point total after the above.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
You know where I stand.
Point transfers can only be accomplished via PM.
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
Just visiting.
-Kraj
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
Just visiting.
I guess you're voting the Mod now
Still, we may be able to hash it out. Everyone can give their points to Rider, and he can then pass them to the appropriate party.
This plan seems hopelessly flawed.
Also, I am not Seppel.
My not being seppel means that I don't want to be a central repository for stuff regardless of whether such a plan makes sense.
I'll leave it to you to determine why putting all points in my hands may not be the best of all possible plans.
HINT: what happens if 1 person votes me?
It seems pretty clear here that point sharing is done in-thread unless you have a special ability to share points (like rider did). But now you're saying that it is done only by PM. What gives?
Kraj
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
Just visiting.
Error. Error. Error.
Showers of sparks erupt from the hangar computer-terminal. Kraj leaps back, narrowly avoiding being singed. The screen flickers wildly, garbled images dancing chaotically.
Finally it settles, and a message blinks intermittently:
Computer-enabled point-sharing transfers are in-thread, not by PM, and use the format: [Donate: Playername X Points]. Computer-enabled point transfers will not be publicly confirmed by the moderator. However, you may contact the moderator for private confirmation.
Hey, after this accusation became anything more than a collection of mafia buzzwords when kraj made his post, I gave a more in depth response where I say what I've done, say what barning is and show that the two are different. It would behoove you to look at that.
I don't believe that thre's an upside to assuming two scum. That's why I'm not operating under that assumption and I don't think there's a townie motivation for doing so.
Here's what this is resulting in for me. My concerns are, in order:
1) Don't get lynched
2) Get the scummiest player lynched
3) Get information that will be of use tomorrow
But frankly, I would be willing to vote literally anyone else and do literally anything (within the rules, of course) to make sure I don't get lynched. If, hypothetically, three people claimed scum and voted someone else and I had only the choice between getting that person lynched or getting myself lynched, I vould vote that other guy. Because there's a possibility it was a gambit and he's scum. There's no possibility that I am.
However, I don't think I've been all that cavalier today. I'm very possibly playing differently than you or most of Salv plays, but that isn't necessarily reckless and it isn't scummy.
Yes. I happen to think that the person who can say "Now we're lynching X" and get something like 3 or 4 votes to move onto them has a lot of sway.
My claim argument against you is, broadly speaking, two-fold. Your claim is not believable and your behavior does not match your claim. These both lead to the conclusion that you're lying about your ability.
Frankly, this accusation isn't one you can respond to. Everyone else needs to individually look at your claim and decide how likely it is to exist.
Two things here. First I need to make sure I'm getting your timeline correct. You got both of your abilities right after Axelrod died?
And secondly: Are you trying to say that you remembered every detail that mattered about every dead person from the middle of day 2 to (at least) day 4? You never once had to look at the original post to grab roles, but at the same time you completely forgot about rider? That boggles my mind.
Hmm, apparently you're right. Seppel asked you to claim anything relevent, you claimed nothing that matters, I asked for a claim from you, you said w/e and claimed that you stared at corpses, kraj pointed out that's not a claim, and then you claimed to rolecop dead people. I apologize for getting this wrong.
I'm not saying you have a secret way to gain points. I'm saying that you don't have the 6 cost ability.
This was a random aside because it felt weird that your two aspects had nothing to do with each other. Even though this has nothing to do with it, I just remembered that Raf's abilities are kinda similar in that they only sync up with a lot of stretching.
Yeah, I'd skimmed your post because I had class in like half an hour. Man why didn't you say this as soon as I started this whole thing?
Apart from the stylistic differences (I like being all shouty and you like to be more studied) these both serve the same purpose. However, the motivations are different. When a mafia member makes a case on someone, they need to twist innocent mistakes and lack of clarity into deliberate distortions. Your post does that. (the 'Just how many more clauses to your ability are you intending to pull out of your ass here? ' bit is just a reskinned way of asking when I stopped beating my wife.) My post, on the other hand, is dealing with a claim that contradicts known information.
Okeydokey, that means where right where we expected to be.
Any reason not to have each player take turns donating a point to RobRoy and then waiting for him to confirm whether he got a point?
Kraj
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
Just visiting.
I have no points to give, nor should I be given one because I can easily be killed.
I have no points, still. Az actually sent me a preemptive "you have no points" around this time yesterday, probably anticipating the inevitable question.
Donate: RobRoy 1 point
(I don't want to run across some kind of clever thing where a donation of more points than you have "fails"; if anyone successfully donates 1 point, or refuses to try, that is sufficient to put their head on the block).
Actually, one extra thing before we go through with this:
Az, if someone successfully donates a point to RobRoy via this method, will he be told WHO donated it?
Before you make your decision on how that works, if you say no, I'm going to make us go through a thing of everyone donating one at a time and waiting for RobRoy to verify before the next person donates, and won't that be painful for everyone? Since the workaround is there, I suggest you say yes
Jesus tapdancing christ, is it REQUIRED that we come up with at least five idiotic plans that fall flat on their face if the scum are only moderately to dramatically brain injured and not merely completely brain dead?
The obvious hole here, for those not following along, is if the scum do have a secret way of moving points, they can make it look like someone who doesn't have any points does...
So what? The obvious hole in your scenario is the player the scum target will almost certainly be informed of receiving a point, at which point they can claim it. Then it'll be up to the town to decide whether to believe that player or not, we'll have a control over a point, and get an extra lynch today.
The other thing which makes your reaction overblown is it's completely unknown as to whether they have that ability. It's perfectly plausible your role was unique.
And I have a hard time beleiving Cyan of all people wouldn't want to milk this for whatever we can.
Kraj
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
Just visiting.
Plan:
Players use the donate syntax to prove they don't have a point.
Flaw: This in no way proves they don't have a point, because it's possible that points can be given secretly.
Conclusion:
Plan flawed, lynch UI.
Your post seems not to reach the correct conclusion, are we working on different data sets?
And IF there is a scum who does have a point and the scum don't have a way to move or use up that point, then we catch them. It's a no-risk, all-reward plan. Worst-case scenario is we've wasted time. But it's not like there's a danger of not reaching a lynch decision before deadline.
Kraj
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
Just visiting.
Ok, so Player A claims to have no points. They type the donate point syntax to RobRoy; RobRoy claims to have received a point.
HOW DO WE USE THIS INFORMATION? Is there a conclusion you feel comfortable making based on this?
Or is it crap?
Let's get on to lynching someone and stop dicking around with foolish points ideas.
TIA,
-rider
I'm thinking there is a non-zero chance that this plan is designed to make sure the person nuked is not based on play but their perceived presence of absence of points.
I'm steadfastly against killing someone or making decisions on what appears to be the points a player had/has.
I'm for making decisions on who is acting scummy.
But frankly, I think that the odds of that are extremely low.
I guess it's fine to go through the motions and see if RR ends up with some points somehow. Like Kraj said, all it does is use up some time, and we're just sitting around anyway.
Transfer Points: Cyan to RobRoy
Donate Points: Cyan to RobRoy
Now we just wait for Az to confirm to RR that he still has no points? Is that formatting even correct?
Given that this is going to accomplish nothing, who cares?
Use that format. Also, while we're at it:
Donate: rider 1 point
Just to prove that I currently have none.
Isn't having a point right now a bit scummy, though? First, there's the possibility that the person with the point has already said in-thread that they have none. If that's the case, Lynch All Liars and such. Even if they haven't stated that, they still then have to argue why they felt keeping the point for themself was worth more than, effectively, a bonus lynch. I am fine with this scheme.
That's kind of my objection though isn't it? We really don't get to know whether someone doesn't have a point, we are just hoping this scheme doesn't backfire. We don't get a LAL out of "finding" someone with a point, instead we get a "lynch and hope" scenario.
I've said my peace, I think this plan is perilous, I'm not about to bang my head into a wall repeating it.
Can we just get this over with?
Not feeling guilty, are you?
It's been made very clear that I can make use of a point to give us an extra lynch, and that I need the donation of a point to do this today. If someone has a point and hasn't come forward with it, there are two possibilities: either they are scum and don't want to enable the extra lynch, or they are a townie who believes they have a better use of a point than the lynch. Either way, I want them forced out into the open. In the first case, I want them dead; in the second case, they have a large amount of 'splaining to do, because a point for a lynch is huge at this stage of the game.
YOU SEEM TO NOT BE READING MY POSTS
PLEASE TO BE READING MY THESIS
I'M FINE WITH YOU GETTING ANY POINTS THAT MAY BE AVAILABLE
IN THE CASE A POINT COMES INTO YOUR POSSESSION, I AM NOT FINE WITH DRAWING CONCLUSIONS AS IF THE SOURCE OF THAT POINT.
Fine. Great. No one is saying "autolynch whoever is 'caught' with a point". All that's been said is "there's no drawback to trying to find a point via everyone donating". That's it. Nothing else.
You're objecting to a plan that hasn't been suggested and yelling to stop the current actions because of it.
Relax.
-Kraj
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
Just visiting.
Can we stop being brain injured chimpanzees yet?
No! We are upset that people are so unfamiliar with Crop Circles awesomeness that they thought we were him. We die angry
Oh get a room.
о дерьмо | i can has cheezburger?
This means I'm horny.
ITS A ZOMBIE! ......oh wait, it's just Tyler Hansbrough.
Elvis! Elvis! Let me be! Keep that pelvis faaaaar from me!
Just visiting.
How about the assumption, which I pointed out, THAT WE CAN TELL WHO HAD THE POINT.
Just vote me off the island, I'm getting to the point where I'd rather not be associated with this group.
As someone who is all but confirmed town, your voice carries alot of weight, but you seem to be getting particularly heated up here, over nothing.
This game has been going on for virtually forever, I've been asked to come back and offer my voice, and I'm seeing folks doing anything they can to game the system rather than you know, make reads on who looks bad to them and ACTUALLY PLAY the game.
I'm not enamored in running around for what may take a few extra weeks to try and ferret out zero extra 'information' about who may or may not have a point when it's pretty clearly an opportunity for a smokescreen to be put up. I think to delay now is to increase my disinterest in the goings on of this game.
I'm fine with everyone saying DONATE to robroy or whatever, but I do not think we should even attempt to incriminate an unknown point source because that line of play seems terrible.
People seem to think that it's a good line of play, but I don't see why some highly suspect piece of *possible* 'information' would be a better thing to work from than the remainder of the thread.
So if we want to get this hair-brained donate to RobRoy scheme done with and get back to playing, fine. But let's not drag this stupidity out any longer than necessary.
Donate: RobRoy 1 point