There are two main themes in Goo Mafia:
1. Color is mutable and can mechanically affect the game-state.
2. Every role has the basic ability to target another player and there are roles which are triggered from being targeted.
Making such a list puts power roles at risk to some extent, but I can also see the benefits if it works as proposed. However, I do not think that players will be informed that they were targeted, so there is absolutely no way in enforce the list. (RobRoy beat me to the punch on this one.)
Basically this post is just /barning RobRoy because he 'nathed me.
He references his ability as probably pro-town, which means that he's likely neutral. I think it's highly unlikely that he's a cultist, although if a gold cult turns up he should obviously die. That's pretty much been stated already. So it looks like the role is a twist on neutral survivor, where he's competing with another player.
@StormBlind: Do you know if turning someone gold has any effects? Why do you consider it pro-town?
@loran16: It's good to see that you want somebody dead for little established reason. Why so vindictive with using a town vig when it could be easily proven if he's a cult leader or not? We don't even know yet if being gold gives you benefits. I call foul.
@StormBlind: Do you know if turning someone gold has any effects? Why do you consider it pro-town?
Im told it has some beneficial effects. I asked the mod but he refused to elaborate on it.
I consider it pro town because, simply, there's more town then mafia, and it makes great sense to provide the beneficial effects to the town in exchange for harmless Golding.
I think the benefits are likely the fact that A) i am targetting the person with a non-harmful effect. B) My supposition is that there's abilities that can affect certain color TYPES. I am led to believe that my role DOES benefit people simply BY changing their colors.
@loran16: It's good to see that you want somebody dead for little established reason. Why so vindictive with using a town vig when it could be easily proven if he's a cult leader or not? We don't even know yet if being gold gives you benefits. I call foul.
Vote loran16
I would not be surprised that he's the other Color transmogrifier. SOME have expressed suspicion, but none have been... well... pushing for my death out of hand :S. I suspect its silver or red or something. Mainly because im golden (Angelic), and he is from an "evil cosmic entity" i.e. devil, ect. So... black / Silver (the only other precious metal) / Red.
As stated, I came forward BECAUSE i wish to prove im NOT A cultist. I am A Goldifier. I make people golden, but dont affect anything else in a potentially negative manner.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
I need one goo to target me at night. Maybe 2 but not more.
Any volunteers?
Why? I'd be willing to target whoever it would be beneficial to target, but I think we need a bit more explanation. I'm assuming you have some ability that activates if X amount of people target you?
Also, why in the world would you expect SB's counterpart to come forward, when according to SB he is bad?
/agree on not doing anything to SB yet. I too put myself forward for goldifying.
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I'm going to /barn everyone who's saying that if anybody flips Gold Cult or something of the sort then we kill SB, but for now leave him alone. I'm hesitant to put myself up for Goldifying without knowing more what it does. I also agree that loran could be SB's "evil" counterpart, but who knows.
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Hmm. vezok already said that he would want to be targeted, but by no more than two people. I'm curious now if you have a similar upper limit, but am unsure if it is wise for you to claim that.
Without proof that we can keep track of what everyone is doing, though, I'm unwilling to go along with this plan. If the scum can know who everyone is targeting, and we don't have a way of catching the scum who promise to target X and actually shoot at Y, that seems to be giving up too much information.
The proof is that anyone whose ability is triggered by targetting claims it immediately if it shouldn't have happened based upon the targetting described in the thread.
Similarly, if someone should have been targetted enough to trigger his ability, and didn't we know someone's lying from that group.
It's not quite as easy to check via public voicing of the information, but it's doable enough that we ought to go for it. Otherwise the scum are going to reap the benefit of this mechanic and the town will fail miserably.
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I'm wondering, Loran, if you have considered at all the possibility of a role that kills people who target him?
And, since I feel this is info that everyone should have equally and be clear on, in the summary of the game we were given for Fast Track consideration, it was disclosed that there are roles (like Cop, and Doc) that work based on who targets them, as opposed to who that role targets. So, the "Cop" might get an inspection on everyone who targets him, and the Doc "protects" those who target him.
This would seem to raise possible game-busting scenarios (like, the Cop claims and everyone agrees to target him, and the Doc claims and the Cop targets the Doc. Cops gets an inspection of everyone in the game + is Doc protected.)
Since that possibility would almost certainly have had to be considered by the Mods is designing said game, I tend to believe the scum would have some way to bust up any plan along those lines. But if they do have those kind of disruptive abilities, then coming out in the open with who is going to be targeting who seems to be just not a great idea in general.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
He references his ability as probably pro-town, which means that he's likely neutral. I think it's highly unlikely that he's a cultist, although if a gold cult turns up he should obviously die. That's pretty much been stated already. So it looks like the role is a twist on neutral survivor, where he's competing with another player.
The proof is that anyone whose ability is triggered by targetting claims it immediately if it shouldn't have happened based upon the targetting described in the thread.
Similarly, if someone should have been targetted enough to trigger his ability, and didn't we know someone's lying from that group.
There is a way to see if the person was targeted by the amount of people he needs (i.e. by gaining whatever abilities he gains like you said) but there's no way to enforce or know that everyone is targeting who they are supposed to be targeting.
Also if we're forcing people to target someone then we prevent roles such as doc or vig from targeting who they want to target.
If we're aware of certain people getting abilities/benefits from being targeted then people could target them (if they trust them) possibly but I'm not sure coordinating everyone's targeting is a great idea.
I'm wondering, Loran, if you have considered at all the possibility of a role that kills people who target him?
And, since I feel this is info that everyone should have equally and be clear on, in the summary of the game we were given for Fast Track consideration, it was disclosed that there are roles (like Cop, and Doc) that work based on who targets them, as opposed to who that role targets. So, the "Cop" might get an inspection on everyone who targets him, and the Doc "protects" those who target him.
This would seem to raise possible game-busting scenarios (like, the Cop claims and everyone agrees to target him, and the Doc claims and the Cop targets the Doc. Cops gets an inspection of everyone in the game + is Doc protected.)
Since that possibility would almost certainly have had to be considered by the Mods is designing said game, I tend to believe the scum would have some way to bust up any plan along those lines. But if they do have those kind of disruptive abilities, then coming out in the open with who is going to be targeting who seems to be just not a great idea in general.
While we're speculating on the setup, I'm going to venture a guess that a cop or doc who works in the way you described probably can only affect one (maybe two) other players each Night.
Which is why we should coordinate our targetting and do it out in the open....if we don't do it in the open and a scum player has such an ability, his fellow scum will (if they're not using other abilities) always use their targets on him, resulting in them more likely gaining the benefits of the mechanic.
---This is what happened in Tacronic mafia btw.
So, someone needs to keep track of the following:
Targetting_Choices_For_The_Next_Night.
The issue that I see with keeping a targeting list is that it gives the scum quite a bit more information to work with. Firstly, it has the potential to out power roles if people ask to be targeted. They know more about the game set up since we only have our own role pm's, so they would probably be able to piece together a better idea of what the targeting does during the first day or two. That, plus it seems like it would be very easy to say you would target someone and then not target that person. If there are multiple people that are supposed to target someone, we won't know who didn't target that person. It would allow the scum to manipulate the targeting to their benefit basically.
The issue that I see with keeping a targeting list is that it gives the scum quite a bit more information to work with. Firstly, it has the potential to out power roles if people ask to be targeted. They know more about the game set up since we only have our own role pm's, so they would probably be able to piece together a better idea of what the targeting does during the first day or two. That, plus it seems like it would be very easy to say you would target someone and then not target that person. If there are multiple people that are supposed to target someone, we won't know who didn't target that person. It would allow the scum to manipulate the targeting to their benefit basically.
I'm still not enamored with having all targeting choices above the table. There's next to no accountability, it seems it would help the scum maximize the value of their night actions (roleblocks and redirectors in particular, if they have them), over time I think it would help the scum narrow down potential town power roles, and finally, it would inhibit some of the town roles.
Out of curiosity, what is a VI?
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VI= Village Idiot.
I agree with not making public who to target. Still I think that vanilla should not start targeting at random.
VT should not target anyone tonight. After this night we can analise the situation better.
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A bit early to say what should or should not be done when night falls. Things might change once we have more information out in the open.
Anywho, I agree that vanillas should not go around poking people at random, but for now I would be okay with them targeting those who have expressed a wish to be targeted.
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Still not home, don't like SB claim, will expound later. Also read ghost town, particularly bilbroxain. Someone saying they are town over and over actually probably makes them the opposite.
No one should target Vezokpriko tonight.
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What I'd like to do with StormBlind is to pick somebody that we will probably lynch at some stage, during day one, have SB target them, then lynch them at some stage. That should hopefully tell us enough.
Thats just blind. So until that person gets lynched SB targets others without our knowledge of the ramifications.
So, you don't approve of dealing with him immediately (as loran suggests), but you don't approve either of playing the waiting strategy, because "SB targets others with unknown ramifications".
So, just what do you want to do with StormBlind?
Thats the thing. It will be a waiting game but its better to have a pool of players for him to choose from that are volunteers. At least we have some grounds to play from. I don't elect to kill him off as like the claiming of miller you have to take the wait and see approach.
Your original post that I quoted has you criticizing RobRoy and I for advocating a "wait and see" approach. Or were you criticizing us for something else?
You also showed distrust of StormBlind, stating that he could target others and we wouldn't know what happens to them. But here, you say that you're ok with him targeting people who volunteer to be targeted. What's different about that group of people that makes you ok with letting SB use whatever he has on them?
I quoted RR to show Loran there was an easy solution.
I believe it would be better for the town to direct him of sorts than to have him target on his own. Later down the line we'd have an idea if something hurtful to the town occurs.
I think that when night approaches we should give him a shortlist of 2-3 players we believe are pro-town for him to choose from.
SB seems to think that whoever gets goldified might (will?) increase in or gain a power/ability. If this is correct we don't want it to benefit scum even if we are going to lynch them at some point. Had we been certain that someone was going to be the next days lynch then maybe, but we don't have that luxury.
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Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
There was a period of uncertainty as every Goo deliberated on the available options.
“This is going to take a while.”
The Goo nearest to you sighed.
You narrowed your eyes suspiciously at it. Maybe this Goo was the one responsible for everything? If that Goo so much as twitched in your direction, you would… you flexed your pseudo-limbic elongated flexible non-segmented extensions just in case.
“So… you want to hear a joke? I got a good one.”
That, you decided, was entirely inappropriate in this situation you were all in, but it certainly wouldn’t hurt anymore than it was right now.
“Sure. What is it?”
“So, there were these two Goo wobbling about in a room. One of them said, “Wow, it sure is sticky in here!” What did the other Goo say?”
“Err… “Wow! A talking Goo!”?”
“Oh... But Goo have always been able to talk?”
“I give up. So what did the other Goo say?”
“Goo.”
“…Just Goo?”
“Yeap. Just Goo. Funny, isn’t it?”
With that, the Goo nearest to you just heaved with mirth and rolled right off the stand you were both standing on at that time to splat onto the floor. There, the still-shaking colored mass just continued to roll around in laughter.
The joke did not even remotely make sense. You wobbled just once in exasperation.
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Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Picross 3D
Assassin's Creed 2
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BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
I trust SB's claim enough to want him alive for at least another night or two. If he's telling the truth, then there will be someone else turning everyone a specific color. If we can confirm the existence of that person, then I'd be very surprised to see SB as any sort of cult leader; having two anti-town cult leaderish roles would be fairly ridiculous. I also doubt that it's some sort of ultra-weird mafia gambit.
Basically, I'm saying let's keep an eye on him for a bit longer. I agree that giving him a choice of 2-3 people makes the most sense. Of course, if he goldifies someone and there doesn't seem to be a significant benefit then the best option might be to just vig him N2. We'll see.
The proof is that anyone whose ability is triggered by targetting claims it immediately if it shouldn't have happened based upon the targetting described in the thread.
Similarly, if someone should have been targetted enough to trigger his ability, and didn't we know someone's lying from that group.
It's not quite as easy to check via public voicing of the information, but it's doable enough that we ought to go for it. Otherwise the scum are going to reap the benefit of this mechanic and the town will fail miserably.
People have pretty much already covered this, but the thing is, say that Person X needs at least 3 people to target him for his ability to trigger. Suppose that only 2 people were supposed to target him. His ability triggers. Unfortunately, we don't learn anything from that because we have no idea who the extra person was.
The only way we could catch scum this way is if Person X instead had 3 people claiming to target him, and his ability did NOT go off. From that we could figure that one of those 3 players is scum. It depends on how many triggered abilities we have and what their thresholds are, but it doesn't seem worth the massive amount of information it gives the scum.
Random people should definitely not go around targeting someone when they don't actually have an ability. This just gives any scum caught red-handed an easy out, and should be avoided at all costs.
As Ced said (say that three times fast!), that feels like a bit of a waste. Maybe could direct all our vanilla targets at one or two townie seeming people?
I'll probably post again later tonight (not promising anything though). There's quite a bit to catch up on.
I believe it would be better for the town to direct him of sorts than to have him target on his own. Later down the line we'd have an idea if something hurtful to the town occurs.
I think that when night approaches we should give him a shortlist of 2-3 players we believe are pro-town for him to choose from.
SB seems to think that whoever gets goldified might (will?) increase in or gain a power/ability. If this is correct we don't want it to benefit scum even if we are going to lynch them at some point. Had we been certain that someone was going to be the next days lynch then maybe, but we don't have that luxury.
-it makes trackers/watchers less useful.
-seeing as there are roles that get more powerful by being targeted, vanillas randomly poking around could lead to scum randomly being powered up.
-seeing as there are roles that get more powerful by being targeted, I find it very likely that there are roles where poking it will have negative consequences for either the poker or the poked.
1 and 3 of these weigh the most with me, hence why i here
Anywho, I agree that vanillas should not go around poking people at random, but for now I would be okay with them targeting those who have expressed a wish to be targeted.
say that I am okay with vanillas targeting people that have expressed a wish to be targeted. There's still some risk to it, but them's the breaks.
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Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
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Metal Gear Solid 3
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Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
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Kingdom Hearts
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Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Just got back from Memorial day celebration, here are thoughts:
at Vezok
I like the 'shortlist' idea for SB. The town picking targets should prove the best way to figure things out.
I /barn Cyan on the vanilla townies targeting = bad thing. Random targeting = random events = bad for the town. The more planned and controled the town can be, the better.
Loran's reaction to SB seems quick. IGMEOY.
Interested in hearing more from Talore and Zindabad. Zinda mentioned a case or something on AE right? Where's that at I wonder.
BTW, fishing in Oklahome makes for a mighty nice vacation.
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Actually, I would expect a call for a vigging like that to be made by a townie more than one from a scum. Neutrals aren't bad vig targets anyway, but you do have to find out whether they might be better keeping around first, though.
I don't see why scum wouldn't want to direct a vig-shot against a neutral. They're rather kill town but as long as scum don't die they're happy, especially if they gain town cred as a result. At any rate Talore's posts still give me a bad gut feeling.
I hope there's something to zindabad's case and not just a continuation of his rivalry with AE.
I'm still not enamored with having all targeting choices above the table. There's next to no accountability, it seems it would help the scum maximize the value of their night actions (roleblocks and redirectors in particular, if they have them), over time I think it would help the scum narrow down potential town power roles, and finally, it would inhibit some of the town roles.
Out of curiosity, what is a VI?
vote: Zchinque. It shouldn't be just curiosity that makes you ask that question.
I don't see why scum wouldn't want to direct a vig-shot against a neutral. They're rather kill town but as long as scum don't die they're happy, especially if they gain town cred as a result. At any rate Talore's posts still give me a bad gut feeling.
I hope there's something to zindabad's case and not just a continuation of his rivalry with AE.
Yeah, the scum wasting one of our vig-shots would definitely be bad. I don't see why we would want to quickly vig someone who looks like a survivor, where a rolecop or the suggested goldifying of a scummy player could easily make or break SB. I took suspicion to it.
AI, could you justify your vote on me, or remove it? I'm not liking your playstyle right now.
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Stormblind, you may turn me gold.
I assume that if you turn your rival gold or your rival turns you Color X the two of you would be able to target yourselves and turn yourselves your original color again. Otherwise, you outing yourself means your rival will target you and be at a huge advantage (-1 Gold +1 X) right off the bat with no hope for you to target yourself to reverse that swing.
vezokpiraka is probably town but is definitely annoying me.
Vote Talore
You had no justification and have kept it on, even when the random phase was over and votecounts passed.
vote: Zchinque. It shouldn't be just curiosity that makes you ask that question.
This seems really random.
I like how active Ced is being. I don't have a clue as to whether or not he's town yet, but if he stays this active we'll have a pretty good answer to that question I think.
I've already stated my opinion on SB, so I won't rehash that here.
Talore seems town to me.
Waiting on Kpaca and Zinda to get back to hear what they have to say.
Also, why in the world would you expect SB's counterpart to come forward, when according to SB he is bad?
/agree on not doing anything to SB yet. I too put myself forward for goldifying.
The interesting thing is that i think every player has posted since i made my claim (It WAS freaking post 4), and no one has come forth yet. I'd say that that's a good indicator that i can be somewhat trusted. I *DID* come forward.
Alright. First thought is how we can trust you over this non-Golden guy. Of course, the easy way to do that is to have that other guy come forward. Are they willing to volunteer?
He hasnt come forward has he? He hasn't tried to work with the town at all has he? He's tried to hide within the town and work from there. Without townie consent, without townie guidance, without any supervision at all.
Seems to me that that's a little +1 Stormblind.
Well, it seems pretty obvious that the colors have some relevance in this game. I think that my initial speculation on that was something like if a Goo targeted another Goo with the same color. But that's pretty unfounded.
Though, could you give more explanation on this "reason to believe"? Not sure whether it is just a guess or actually based on something.
Roughly stated, my PM implied that i would be "Improving" the players i target.Improving is rarely used as a negative term, especially with a setup such as this.
While it is clear that Goo colors have some relevance in the game, it isn't clear what that relevance is. And here, it's almost like you claim that you both know what that relevance is, and that you can provide it. But, this "providing powers" seems to be entirely off of your own speculation, and, in fact, there seems to be no obvious source of benefit for for being Gold for anybody but yourself.
It honestly seems you're trying to heap as much mud onto me as possible. I have answered this, and YES I honestly *DONT* have much more to go off of but supposition and design analysis, as well as analysis of my own role and its PM, as well as public information. I will almost guarantee you (and there's been murmurs in the game to this effect) that what color you are will matter. And will affect peoples ability to target you, and, potentially, ones abilities. That is why i ask for Volunteers, and im not targetting at random. Near as i can tell, my role has the capacity to hurt some roles, while benefitnig others. I would rather do the latter over the former.
It only has "no disadvantages" if you're trustworthy.
Even then, it could be anything. Once again, you're presenting your speculation as reason to trust you.
Again. Seems a decent amount like mud flinging. It only has "no disadvantages" if im not a cultist, and that is EASILY noticable isnt it?
Here's the situation. If i follow the path some players have laid out of targetting very townie players, they will get NK'd and my lack of cult-hood will be revealed. Or the mafia purposely chooses to not target them, in hopes that i'll get lynched, which acts as a form of protection for them (And lets face it, this isnt a terrible idea. I waste a lynch or a vig, and its not firing trying to find them is it?) Either way, its pro-me, but only one is pro-town.
Or i take the other path and target very scummy players likely to be vigged or Lynched. Guess what happens then? My lack of culthood is ALSO revealed.
This is also why im seeking a somewhat substantial listing. I dont want my competitor to be able to simply recruit who i target. I dont want him to DIE before i target him, and i'd PREFER if he lived long enough to claim what happens to him. He claims nothing bad happened, A Gold Goo dies, and turns up non-cult, guess what that means? I didnt lie.
What I'd like to do with StormBlind is to pick somebody that we will probably lynch at some stage, during day one, have SB target them, then lynch them at some stage. That should hopefully tell us enough.
Thats just blind. So until that person gets lynched SB targets others without our knowledge of the ramifications.
Uhm, that's how this ability and situation would work, and is the best case scenario. Seriously, how hard is it to understand that if they die and come up cult and *I* die.
I think that when night approaches we should give him a shortlist of 2-3 players we believe are pro-town for him to choose from.
Again, statement above. I agree to this for the most part, but would prefer that volunteers be allowed to be potential targets as well. Gives a huge bin from which to choose.
I also request that, if something negative happens to them due to becoming gold, they come forward. If not... they dont. I'd REALLY rather not have every recruit of mine become incredibly public knowledge. (Kinda defeats the purpose of coming forward if the town guides me to such a degree i lose right?)
SB seems to think that whoever gets goldified might (will?) increase in or gain a power/ability.
I dont know precisely what will happen, and would prefer for you to not put words into my mouth. It might be as active as a new ability, or as passive as partial protection from abilities. I have No clue, merely that dagger has stated (after i questioned the improved line in my PM) that there would be benefits, but he wouldnt state what.
If this is correct we don't want it to benefit scum even if we are going to lynch them at some point. Had we been certain that someone was going to be the next days lynch then maybe, but we don't have that luxury.
I trust SB's claim enough to want him alive for at least another night or two. If he's telling the truth, then there will be someone else turning everyone a specific color. If we can confirm the existence of that person, then I'd be very surprised to see SB as any sort of cult leader; having two anti-town cult leaderish roles would be fairly ridiculous. I also doubt that it's some sort of ultra-weird mafia gambit.
This is a great point, and DM, i thank you for that. I never thought of this. My coming forward means that my competitor could try to not fire in the hopes of getting me lynched, but then runs the severe risk of getting lynched, vigged, mafia NK'd and not having any points. Meaning, the town has a very good chance of someone getting changed another non-gold color, and it being obvious im not a cultist (Unless you're suggesting there's 2 cults ofcourse :rolleyes:).
Basically, I'm saying let's keep an eye on him for a bit longer. I agree that giving him a choice of 2-3 people makes the most sense. Of course, if he goldifies someone and there doesn't seem to be a significant benefit then the best option might be to just vig him N2. We'll see.
Question for you is: If there's another person come forward who states he's been turned, magenta lets say, then its been made clear that there's another one of my role, meaning im not a CL. Now, lets say the people i recruit dont get a HUGE benefit, or not a readily apparent one, why would you kill me? Even if its just a MINOR benefit, why would you purposely kill me when, as you said above, Its almost impossible i'd be a cult leader, and its INCREDIBLY unlikely im mafia... meaning i'd be neutral who came forward to work with the town? *WHY* Would you advocate vigging me then?
Vote Dancing Mad
Something about that paragraph just does... NOT ring very townie to me. A, most likely, neutral role working with the town to provide a benefit, (regardless of size) shouldn't be rewarded with a vigging, not when the situation means that im basically confirmed to be that role.
I like the 'shortlist' idea for SB. The town picking targets should prove the best way to figure things out.
Actually, Dancing Mad provided a great method of proving im not a Cultist atleast. If my competitor changes someone non-their starting color, then its obvious im not a cult leader. And I'd appreciate if you could prove these roles could make sense as mafia roles.
I don't see why scum wouldn't want to direct a vig-shot against a neutral. They're rather kill town but as long as scum don't die they're happy
This. A vig whose firing at the most suspicious targets is a pro-town role. And eliminating someone who is easily provable to be atleast, not anti-town, is definitely a boon to the mafia if the vig isnt attacking suspects / mafia.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
AE and I have been going at it since we first played together in Noob 26, back in November 2008. There was a reason I random-voted him, but it wasn't an in-game reason.
yep to the above. We were clearly past the random stage at that point and that post came right after a whole interaction with Ced and AE and did not sound random at all.
yep to the above. We were clearly past the random stage at that point and that post came right after a whole interaction with Ced and AE and did not sound random at all.
So? Are you telling me you think he is scum for that vote? Pshah.
Anyway, to expound upon what I was saying earlier. If you notice, Stormblind is doing the same sort of sell bilbro attempted in ghost town, albeit he is doing it better that bilbroxain. What he did was (with what I presume is an anti-town role), claim early to try and establish his towniness, and then he proceeded to in several other posts refer to himself and his role as town at every possible oppurtunity to passively make it secure in the other players minds that he's being honest and trustworthy. The way he quickly turned on someone with one vote on him supports this idea to me. I was okay with letting this happen in Ghost Town, because I was scum and bilbo had no realistic chance of duping me and Seppell, so we let him shoot at will to speed up our victory. I'm not willing to let that happen in this game though.
unvote: Vote Stormblind
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Anyway, to expound upon what I was saying earlier. If you notice, Stormblind is doing the same sort of sell bilbro attempted in ghost town, albeit he is doing it better that bilbroxain. What he did was (with what I presume is an anti-town role), claim early to try and establish his towniness, and then he proceeded to in several other posts refer to himself and his role as town at every possible oppurtunity to passively make it secure in the other players minds that he's being honest and trustworthy. The way he quickly turned on someone with one vote on him supports this idea to me.
Uhm, cept, DM doesnt *HAVE* a vote on me does he? No, he doesnt, he said something scummy, i attacked him for it. Its called mafia. Learn to play it.
I was okay with letting this happen in Ghost Town, because I was scum and bilbo had no realistic chance of duping me and Seppell, so we let him shoot at will to speed up our victory. I'm not willing to let that happen in this game though.
unvote: Vote Stormblind
Cept the situations aren't the same at all due to role symmetry. There's 2 (!!) of us. So, either you're claiming that there's... 2 SK's, 2 cult leaders, we're 2 mafia trying some insane gambit, something?
I'd really really like if you could explain how it is you think this would work with 2 of us? A fact i feel you've greatly overlooked.
And the fact you're trying to waste the town's lynch on me?
Answer this to me, there's 2 of us. How do you expect your theory holds with that consideration?
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
Cept the situations aren't the same at all due to role symmetry. There's 2 (!!) of us. So, either you're claiming that there's... 2 SK's, 2 cult leaders, we're 2 mafia trying some insane gambit, something?
I'd really really like if you could explain how it is you think this would work with 2 of us? A fact i feel you've greatly overlooked.
Answer this to me, there's 2 of us. How do you expect your theory holds with that consideration?
Yeah, the glaring issue I'm seeing with your case is that we can't prove there is a second person, which is kind what you're riding on at this point.
I don't think killing you is useful at this point until we can confirm anything, you could easily turn up as a cult leader or this wierd role, with little harm to us. You will have to comply with our wishes on who to target. If that person comes up silver, or whatever color is your alledged opponent, then that's enough confirmation for me.
I also believe kpaca knows how to play mafia...
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I do not like how quickly you suggested this (especially given what RobRoy just posted). Everyone has that ability.
Making such a list puts power roles at risk to some extent, but I can also see the benefits if it works as proposed. However, I do not think that players will be informed that they were targeted, so there is absolutely no way in enforce the list. (RobRoy beat me to the punch on this one.)
Basically this post is just /barning RobRoy because he 'nathed me.
Zchinque (1) - ChrisXIV
TACKY (1) - Archmage Eternal
vezokpiraka (1) - falkonn
Talore (1) - AsianInvasion
With 21 Goo alive, it’s 11 Goo to Lynch.
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He references his ability as probably pro-town, which means that he's likely neutral. I think it's highly unlikely that he's a cultist, although if a gold cult turns up he should obviously die. That's pretty much been stated already. So it looks like the role is a twist on neutral survivor, where he's competing with another player.
@StormBlind: Do you know if turning someone gold has any effects? Why do you consider it pro-town?
@loran16: It's good to see that you want somebody dead for little established reason. Why so vindictive with using a town vig when it could be easily proven if he's a cult leader or not? We don't even know yet if being gold gives you benefits. I call foul.
Vote loran16
I consider it pro town because, simply, there's more town then mafia, and it makes great sense to provide the beneficial effects to the town in exchange for harmless Golding.
I think the benefits are likely the fact that A) i am targetting the person with a non-harmful effect. B) My supposition is that there's abilities that can affect certain color TYPES. I am led to believe that my role DOES benefit people simply BY changing their colors.
I would not be surprised that he's the other Color transmogrifier. SOME have expressed suspicion, but none have been... well... pushing for my death out of hand :S. I suspect its silver or red or something. Mainly because im golden (Angelic), and he is from an "evil cosmic entity" i.e. devil, ect. So... black / Silver (the only other precious metal) / Red.
As stated, I came forward BECAUSE i wish to prove im NOT A cultist. I am A Goldifier. I make people golden, but dont affect anything else in a potentially negative manner. Im told it has some beneficial effects. I asked the mod but he refused to elaborate on it.
Why? I'd be willing to target whoever it would be beneficial to target, but I think we need a bit more explanation. I'm assuming you have some ability that activates if X amount of people target you?
Also, why in the world would you expect SB's counterpart to come forward, when according to SB he is bad?
/agree on not doing anything to SB yet. I too put myself forward for goldifying.
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MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
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The proof is that anyone whose ability is triggered by targetting claims it immediately if it shouldn't have happened based upon the targetting described in the thread.
Similarly, if someone should have been targetted enough to trigger his ability, and didn't we know someone's lying from that group.
It's not quite as easy to check via public voicing of the information, but it's doable enough that we ought to go for it. Otherwise the scum are going to reap the benefit of this mechanic and the town will fail miserably.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
And, since I feel this is info that everyone should have equally and be clear on, in the summary of the game we were given for Fast Track consideration, it was disclosed that there are roles (like Cop, and Doc) that work based on who targets them, as opposed to who that role targets. So, the "Cop" might get an inspection on everyone who targets him, and the Doc "protects" those who target him.
This would seem to raise possible game-busting scenarios (like, the Cop claims and everyone agrees to target him, and the Doc claims and the Cop targets the Doc. Cops gets an inspection of everyone in the game + is Doc protected.)
Since that possibility would almost certainly have had to be considered by the Mods is designing said game, I tend to believe the scum would have some way to bust up any plan along those lines. But if they do have those kind of disruptive abilities, then coming out in the open with who is going to be targeting who seems to be just not a great idea in general.
This sounds right.
There is a way to see if the person was targeted by the amount of people he needs (i.e. by gaining whatever abilities he gains like you said) but there's no way to enforce or know that everyone is targeting who they are supposed to be targeting.
Also if we're forcing people to target someone then we prevent roles such as doc or vig from targeting who they want to target.
If we're aware of certain people getting abilities/benefits from being targeted then people could target them (if they trust them) possibly but I'm not sure coordinating everyone's targeting is a great idea.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
Talore's vote on loran feels forced to me.
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Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
You are asking me how it works. It means I have an ability that does the same. You're rolefishing beause you're asking me how I knew that.
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[The Family] pressed the "lynch" button, thinking it was labeled "lunch" .
Unvote
The issue that I see with keeping a targeting list is that it gives the scum quite a bit more information to work with. Firstly, it has the potential to out power roles if people ask to be targeted. They know more about the game set up since we only have our own role pm's, so they would probably be able to piece together a better idea of what the targeting does during the first day or two. That, plus it seems like it would be very easy to say you would target someone and then not target that person. If there are multiple people that are supposed to target someone, we won't know who didn't target that person. It would allow the scum to manipulate the targeting to their benefit basically.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=52729
I like you as town and agree with this post.
Out of curiosity, what is a VI?
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
I agree with not making public who to target. Still I think that vanilla should not start targeting at random.
VT should not target anyone tonight. After this night we can analise the situation better.
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Anywho, I agree that vanillas should not go around poking people at random, but for now I would be okay with them targeting those who have expressed a wish to be targeted.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
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Does this change when you consider the possibility of being targeted by 2 vanillas and one interfering scum?
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No one should target Vezokpriko tonight.
Quite hasty. Seeing how theres an easy solution. You come across as his competitor.
Thats just blind. So until that person gets lynched SB targets others without our knowledge of the ramifications.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Thats the thing. It will be a waiting game but its better to have a pool of players for him to choose from that are volunteers. At least we have some grounds to play from. I don't elect to kill him off as like the claiming of miller you have to take the wait and see approach.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
I quoted RR to show Loran there was an easy solution.
I believe it would be better for the town to direct him of sorts than to have him target on his own. Later down the line we'd have an idea if something hurtful to the town occurs.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
I think that when night approaches we should give him a shortlist of 2-3 players we believe are pro-town for him to choose from.
SB seems to think that whoever gets goldified might (will?) increase in or gain a power/ability. If this is correct we don't want it to benefit scum even if we are going to lynch them at some point. Had we been certain that someone was going to be the next days lynch then maybe, but we don't have that luxury.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
“This is going to take a while.”
The Goo nearest to you sighed.
You narrowed your eyes suspiciously at it. Maybe this Goo was the one responsible for everything? If that Goo so much as twitched in your direction, you would… you flexed your pseudo-limbic elongated flexible non-segmented extensions just in case.
“So… you want to hear a joke? I got a good one.”
That, you decided, was entirely inappropriate in this situation you were all in, but it certainly wouldn’t hurt anymore than it was right now.
“Sure. What is it?”
“So, there were these two Goo wobbling about in a room. One of them said, “Wow, it sure is sticky in here!” What did the other Goo say?”
“Err… “Wow! A talking Goo!”?”
“Oh... But Goo have always been able to talk?”
“I give up. So what did the other Goo say?”
“Goo.”
“…Just Goo?”
“Yeap. Just Goo. Funny, isn’t it?”
With that, the Goo nearest to you just heaved with mirth and rolled right off the stand you were both standing on at that time to splat onto the floor. There, the still-shaking colored mass just continued to roll around in laughter.
The joke did not even remotely make sense. You wobbled just once in exasperation.
This was going to take awhile indeed.
Goocount
Talore (1) - AsianInvasion
loran16 (1) - Talore
Archmage Eternal (1) - zindabad
With 21 Goo alive, it’s 11 Goo to Lynch.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
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Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
This. Either tell us your role, or just shut up about it (note: the first part
was sarcastic).
Signature from Nakamura and Heroes of the Planes Studios.
MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
Basic 24
Basically, I'm saying let's keep an eye on him for a bit longer. I agree that giving him a choice of 2-3 people makes the most sense. Of course, if he goldifies someone and there doesn't seem to be a significant benefit then the best option might be to just vig him N2. We'll see.
People have pretty much already covered this, but the thing is, say that Person X needs at least 3 people to target him for his ability to trigger. Suppose that only 2 people were supposed to target him. His ability triggers. Unfortunately, we don't learn anything from that because we have no idea who the extra person was.
The only way we could catch scum this way is if Person X instead had 3 people claiming to target him, and his ability did NOT go off. From that we could figure that one of those 3 players is scum. It depends on how many triggered abilities we have and what their thresholds are, but it doesn't seem worth the massive amount of information it gives the scum.
As Ced said (say that three times fast!), that feels like a bit of a waste. Maybe could direct all our vanilla targets at one or two townie seeming people?
I'll probably post again later tonight (not promising anything though). There's quite a bit to catch up on.
What do you mean by "hurtful"?
I must be missing something, can you explain?
Agree with this.
(btw, you didn't actually win Anita Blake like your sig suggests )
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
-it makes trackers/watchers less useful.
-seeing as there are roles that get more powerful by being targeted, vanillas randomly poking around could lead to scum randomly being powered up.
-seeing as there are roles that get more powerful by being targeted, I find it very likely that there are roles where poking it will have negative consequences for either the poker or the poked.
1 and 3 of these weigh the most with me, hence why i here
say that I am okay with vanillas targeting people that have expressed a wish to be targeted. There's still some risk to it, but them's the breaks.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Syrenz: Oh yeah, lol. Forgot we lost that game
Signature from Nakamura and Heroes of the Planes Studios.
MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
Basic 24
at Vezok
I like the 'shortlist' idea for SB. The town picking targets should prove the best way to figure things out.
I /barn Cyan on the vanilla townies targeting = bad thing. Random targeting = random events = bad for the town. The more planned and controled the town can be, the better.
Loran's reaction to SB seems quick. IGMEOY.
Interested in hearing more from Talore and Zindabad. Zinda mentioned a case or something on AE right? Where's that at I wonder.
BTW, fishing in Oklahome makes for a mighty nice vacation.
I don't see why scum wouldn't want to direct a vig-shot against a neutral. They're rather kill town but as long as scum don't die they're happy, especially if they gain town cred as a result. At any rate Talore's posts still give me a bad gut feeling.
I hope there's something to zindabad's case and not just a continuation of his rivalry with AE.
vote: Zchinque. It shouldn't be just curiosity that makes you ask that question.
Yeah, the scum wasting one of our vig-shots would definitely be bad. I don't see why we would want to quickly vig someone who looks like a survivor, where a rolecop or the suggested goldifying of a scummy player could easily make or break SB. I took suspicion to it.
AI, could you justify your vote on me, or remove it? I'm not liking your playstyle right now.
You had no justification and have kept it on, even when the random phase was over and votecounts passed.
This seems really random.
I like how active Ced is being. I don't have a clue as to whether or not he's town yet, but if he stays this active we'll have a pretty good answer to that question I think.
I've already stated my opinion on SB, so I won't rehash that here.
Talore seems town to me.
Waiting on Kpaca and Zinda to get back to hear what they have to say.
Think that's about it for now.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=52729
The interesting thing is that i think every player has posted since i made my claim (It WAS freaking post 4), and no one has come forth yet. I'd say that that's a good indicator that i can be somewhat trusted. I *DID* come forward.
He hasnt come forward has he? He hasn't tried to work with the town at all has he? He's tried to hide within the town and work from there. Without townie consent, without townie guidance, without any supervision at all.
Seems to me that that's a little +1 Stormblind.
Roughly stated, my PM implied that i would be "Improving" the players i target.Improving is rarely used as a negative term, especially with a setup such as this.
It honestly seems you're trying to heap as much mud onto me as possible. I have answered this, and YES I honestly *DONT* have much more to go off of but supposition and design analysis, as well as analysis of my own role and its PM, as well as public information. I will almost guarantee you (and there's been murmurs in the game to this effect) that what color you are will matter. And will affect peoples ability to target you, and, potentially, ones abilities. That is why i ask for Volunteers, and im not targetting at random. Near as i can tell, my role has the capacity to hurt some roles, while benefitnig others. I would rather do the latter over the former.
Again. Seems a decent amount like mud flinging. It only has "no disadvantages" if im not a cultist, and that is EASILY noticable isnt it?
Here's the situation. If i follow the path some players have laid out of targetting very townie players, they will get NK'd and my lack of cult-hood will be revealed. Or the mafia purposely chooses to not target them, in hopes that i'll get lynched, which acts as a form of protection for them (And lets face it, this isnt a terrible idea. I waste a lynch or a vig, and its not firing trying to find them is it?) Either way, its pro-me, but only one is pro-town.
Or i take the other path and target very scummy players likely to be vigged or Lynched. Guess what happens then? My lack of culthood is ALSO revealed.
This is also why im seeking a somewhat substantial listing. I dont want my competitor to be able to simply recruit who i target. I dont want him to DIE before i target him, and i'd PREFER if he lived long enough to claim what happens to him. He claims nothing bad happened, A Gold Goo dies, and turns up non-cult, guess what that means? I didnt lie.
Night 1 im guessing you mean.
Uhm, that's how this ability and situation would work, and is the best case scenario. Seriously, how hard is it to understand that if they die and come up cult and *I* die.
Again, statement above. I agree to this for the most part, but would prefer that volunteers be allowed to be potential targets as well. Gives a huge bin from which to choose.
I also request that, if something negative happens to them due to becoming gold, they come forward. If not... they dont. I'd REALLY rather not have every recruit of mine become incredibly public knowledge. (Kinda defeats the purpose of coming forward if the town guides me to such a degree i lose right?)
I dont know precisely what will happen, and would prefer for you to not put words into my mouth. It might be as active as a new ability, or as passive as partial protection from abilities. I have No clue, merely that dagger has stated (after i questioned the improved line in my PM) that there would be benefits, but he wouldnt state what.
See Above.
This is a great point, and DM, i thank you for that. I never thought of this. My coming forward means that my competitor could try to not fire in the hopes of getting me lynched, but then runs the severe risk of getting lynched, vigged, mafia NK'd and not having any points. Meaning, the town has a very good chance of someone getting changed another non-gold color, and it being obvious im not a cultist (Unless you're suggesting there's 2 cults ofcourse :rolleyes:).
Question for you is: If there's another person come forward who states he's been turned, magenta lets say, then its been made clear that there's another one of my role, meaning im not a CL. Now, lets say the people i recruit dont get a HUGE benefit, or not a readily apparent one, why would you kill me? Even if its just a MINOR benefit, why would you purposely kill me when, as you said above, Its almost impossible i'd be a cult leader, and its INCREDIBLY unlikely im mafia... meaning i'd be neutral who came forward to work with the town? *WHY* Would you advocate vigging me then?
Vote Dancing Mad
Something about that paragraph just does... NOT ring very townie to me. A, most likely, neutral role working with the town to provide a benefit, (regardless of size) shouldn't be rewarded with a vigging, not when the situation means that im basically confirmed to be that role.
Actually, Dancing Mad provided a great method of proving im not a Cultist atleast. If my competitor changes someone non-their starting color, then its obvious im not a cult leader. And I'd appreciate if you could prove these roles could make sense as mafia roles.
Meaning, I am what I claimed.
This. A vig whose firing at the most suspicious targets is a pro-town role. And eliminating someone who is easily provable to be atleast, not anti-town, is definitely a boon to the mafia if the vig isnt attacking suspects / mafia.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Umm... that's wierd. You definitely sounded like you had a reason before. Care to explain the post that you voted in?
I was going to say the same thing. I went to go and check his post to make sure I was remembering it right first though.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=52729
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
So? Are you telling me you think he is scum for that vote? Pshah.
Anyway, to expound upon what I was saying earlier. If you notice, Stormblind is doing the same sort of sell bilbro attempted in ghost town, albeit he is doing it better that bilbroxain. What he did was (with what I presume is an anti-town role), claim early to try and establish his towniness, and then he proceeded to in several other posts refer to himself and his role as town at every possible oppurtunity to passively make it secure in the other players minds that he's being honest and trustworthy. The way he quickly turned on someone with one vote on him supports this idea to me. I was okay with letting this happen in Ghost Town, because I was scum and bilbo had no realistic chance of duping me and Seppell, so we let him shoot at will to speed up our victory. I'm not willing to let that happen in this game though.
unvote: Vote Stormblind
Cept the situations aren't the same at all due to role symmetry. There's 2 (!!) of us. So, either you're claiming that there's... 2 SK's, 2 cult leaders, we're 2 mafia trying some insane gambit, something?
I'd really really like if you could explain how it is you think this would work with 2 of us? A fact i feel you've greatly overlooked.
And the fact you're trying to waste the town's lynch on me?
Answer this to me, there's 2 of us. How do you expect your theory holds with that consideration? Uhm, cept, DM doesnt *HAVE* a vote on me does he? No, he doesnt, he said something scummy, i attacked him for it. Its called mafia. Learn to play it.
Yeah, the glaring issue I'm seeing with your case is that we can't prove there is a second person, which is kind what you're riding on at this point.
I don't think killing you is useful at this point until we can confirm anything, you could easily turn up as a cult leader or this wierd role, with little harm to us. You will have to comply with our wishes on who to target. If that person comes up silver, or whatever color is your alledged opponent, then that's enough confirmation for me.
I also believe kpaca knows how to play mafia...