Stormblind, I don't recall if you said or not and I'm not checking now, but are you claiming to be "town" or are you claiming "neutral" like kpaca just did?
I am neutral. Haven't argued otherwise. Merely that i was going to try to play as a townie.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
Again, statement above. I agree to this for the most part, but would prefer that volunteers be allowed to be potential targets as well. Gives a huge bin from which to choose.
The thing is, for the first night at least, I don't want you to have a huge bin to choose from. I want us to first get your ability validated and what happens to the one you target. Once that is established we could loosen your reigns somewhat.
However, now that kpaca has stepped forward this might have changed. I must ponder it some more.
I dont know precisely what will happen, and would prefer for you to not put words into my mouth.
Wait...Suppose that kpaca was lynched or vigged today (or tonight). SB would then have essentially won, and have little reason to still be in the game; he claimed he doesn't need to be alive at the end of the game, so he just needs to turn somebody gold and he's basically already won. Same goes for kpaca if we got rid of SB today/tonight. That seems like really bad game design.
I'm not sure what that means. I need to think on this more.
This has struck me as well. From what they are claiming, they have no reason to care about anything else than living longer than their counterpart, so they can gain more recruits.
No, upon more in depth reading, my abilities are contrary to stormblind in that sense. I get personal abilities. So his targets getting abilities seems certainly possible. I imagine Dagger designed the roles as two neutral opposites, because also players I turn orange won't be notified. I need to go recheck and see if my color can be changed, because I was surprised when SB said that, I was planning on changing his color
Note: Colors are assigned randomly and independently of roles.
Up until now I assumed that SB weren't gold himself, but merely made other people gold. And likewise for his counterpart.
Also note that there are more possible colours (26 by my count) than players.
Eh, it's worth a try... @Mod: Can you confirm or deny that all goo had their colour assigned randomly?
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If it truly is random, that means that the gold recruiter randomly got the gold colored goo!
AWESOME.
Colors are assigned randomly independently of roles, but it doesn't mean that roles cannot be influenced by the color. Maybe Dagger assigned you the color gold first, and them assigned your role, choosing the gold color because it was yours.
Colors are assigned randomly independently of roles, but it doesn't mean that roles cannot be influenced by the color. Maybe Dagger assigned you the color gold first, and them assigned your role, choosing the gold color because it was yours.
Pretty sure it means colors are completely random and have nothing to do with role. Regardless we can probably figure that out from whatever kpaca is.
Uhh, wow. I'm kinda confused by the neutrals right now.
So Kpaca and SB are the neutrals that have to change colors. SB claims that Kpaca is a 'evil' force, Kpaca says they are both neutral, correct? And SB's color change possibly gives bonuses, whereas Kpaca's gives him some sort of bonus, correct?
Ok, so. Questions. Yeah.
@SB: Is Kpaca's 'evil' part of your PM most likely flavor or do you believe him to be scum/SK? I have more questions pending your answer.
@Kpaca: What good/evil implications does your PM make again?
@Both: Do either of you know for sure that these changes grant abilities? The 'benefit the town/grant stuff' part of the roles seems like bait for a bad idea.
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Theoretically, kpaca and SB could be scum in a gambit together. Just Food for thought. Still support a vig of one of them at the very least.
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My bigger issue right now may be that, while it's not horrible to have one "Neutral" role floating around early in the game, having multiples means the town just has that much less margin for error - assuming that the Neutral roles don't care whether Town or Mafia "Win" as long as they achieve their own objective. Mafia have little incentive to eliminate them, and it could significantly shorten an end game scenario.
Also, part of me doesn't like that - if one of these guy was eliminated early - the other would basically auto-win the game. That seems wrong, completely aside from being unfun. Which makes me nervous.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Also, part of me doesn't like that - if one of these guy was eliminated early - the other would basically auto-win the game. That seems wrong, completely aside from being unfun. Which makes me nervous.
It would also leave the survivor as a loose cannon that has no real incentive to work with the town. Right now they have to go along with what we say, at least in broad strokes, or risk getting killed, and thus losing.
They wouldn't have any real incentive to work with the scum either, but they could not be trusted.
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I Wont bother putting myself forward, its pretty obvious i want to survive. I have reasons to state you should choose me, I have beneficial powers as long as im alive, compared to kpaca just making himself stronger, I came forward from the start, Ive answered every question honestly and openly, I've basically put myself under town supervision from the start, ect.
Not to mention, even when i cant win (FF7 mafia), which i consider pretty close to having won, i actively participated in scum hunting and was instrumental in nailing 2 scum via Vigging. (Kraj among them if i remember right).
But i wont mention that, but would appreciate atleast knowing the thought processes currently.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
Thanks to kpaca for coming forward. The design implications, though, are - as mentioned - interesting. People seem to be ignoring the fact that, as mentioned initially, "color is mutable". Presumably someone who is made golden (or orange) can be changed in other ways. If SB and kpaca's abilities do not inform the target of the change, presumably that adds on a colour instead of replacing. For one of the two to not trivially win should the other die, there must be abilities out there that replace colour instead of just adding on. That would also explain SB's ability to tell how many golds are out there.
I'm still in favour of leaving them alone for now, although I do support any vig shots being aimed at them. Once one dies we can more accurately evaluate the other one.
Uhm. What gambit?
The general tenor this page is that you dont want 2 unchecked neutrals running around as we could be quite a thorn supposedly. But unless there's a double lynch you feel like wasting on neutrals to ensure we BOTH lose, or multiple vigs you, again, feel like using to ensure we both lose... one of us will win, and the other will lose. You could kill us one night after the other, and I'd be fine with that assuming Im the second one dead ;).
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
Theoretically, kpaca and SB could be scum in a gambit together. Just Food for thought. Still support a vig of one of them at the very least.
I agree with the first point. Regarding the second point, if there is a full vig who does not have any better targets, vigging Stormblind or kpaca would be fine by me, but a vig with a limited number of shots should aim to kill scum.
I feel somewhat better about Talore because he is relatively inexperienced.
I agree with the first point. Regarding the second point, if there is a full vig who does not have any better targets, vigging Stormblind or kpaca would be fine by me, but a vig with a limited number of shots should aim to kill scum.
I feel somewhat better about Talore because he is relatively inexperienced.
Obviously. This was meant to apply only to full-power vigs with no other obvious targets or that are not directed by the town.
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I think that they should both get killed, as I am skeptical that their entire existence is just 'one of us wins, one of us loses, neither of us affects the town's ability to win at all'.
I think that they should both get killed, as I am skeptical that their entire existence is just 'one of us wins, one of us loses, neither of us affects the town's ability to win at all'.
I don't see why not; gaming the mod seems unwise. The roles claimed are like a hybrid between a traditional survivor and cultist, where surviving to the endgame is ideal but not necessary. Survivors tend to side with whichever faction is winning, and I suspect that with these roles, had they not been made public Day One, would have done something similar, with the neutral in lead siding with the winning faction and the other neutral siding with the losing group. Personally I see little risk in keeping them alive for the next couple Days and waiting to see if they are telling the truth. Worst comes to worst we can always lynch or vig them later.
I am skeptical that their entire existence is just 'one of us wins, one of us loses, neither of us affects the town's ability to win at all'.
...which by implication means, "Dagger wouldn't write the roles in such and such a way." That would be gaming the mod. Regardless, this is not particularly relevant to the game at hand.
B)'We can always deal with them later' is the kiss of death. SB and Kpaca should be vigged as soon as possible, and that's it.
If they are to be vigged, is the order that they die relevant? I would recommend vigging kpaca first due to the nature of his role (giving himself abilities instead of helping others) but in the end it makes little difference to everyone else if they are both killed this way.
@Talore: Typically cop investigations return "Town" or "Non-Town" so targeting a claimed neutral would provide no information whatsoever.
It doesn't have anything to do with Dagger, but with the game of mafia itself.
But regardless, even if you assume that they are being 100% truthful, what motivation do they have to work on the side of the town? Absolutely zero. If someone is not an asset to the town, they are a liability. There is no middle ground.
It doesn't have anything to do with Dagger, but with the game of mafia itself.
I mentioned that the roles claimed are similar to survivors in that staying alive longer is better for them (but not surviving to the end is not necessary). I don't see how the claimed roles do not make sense with regards to what we expect from Mafia.
But regardless, even if you assume that they are being 100% truthful, what motivation do they have to work on the side of the town? Absolutely zero. If someone is not an asset to the town, they are a liability. There is no middle ground.
At first I was going to say that they have some motivation because otherwise we simply kill them, but it's hard to draw a line at some point and say, "You guys aren't pulling your weight, time to die." Also by then we would really rather kill mafia and mowing through neutrals would simply slow us down. I'm starting to see your point, not that I was strictly against the vigging of the neutrals to begin with.
Is "kill all neutrals" generally correct in the early game? I don't any experience in this regard.
Is "kill all neutrals" generally correct in the early game? I don't any experience in this regard.
Lynching (non-SK) neutrals is a bad idea, as it gives little-to-no information. Vigging them is a decent plan, if there are no better targets.
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On the vigging neutrals issue: I think it would be worth waiting a night to see what happens personally. If the town decides to vig one of them however, I would prefer Kpaca for the flavor reasons already mentioned.
Well, kpaca is the more obvious choice simply on the grounds that he claimed that when he color changes you he gains abilities, and SB claimed that his color change has beneficial effects for the person changed. Of course SB could be blowing smoke there (as he didn't say this for 100%, and gave himself enough room to fudge if someone he changes comes back and says "hey, I got nothing out of that...."
I'm taking more of a wait and see approach for the moment. Maybe something more attractive will present itself, and maybe not.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If one of them is lying at all, it is most likely SB. I'm not entirely convinced that his targetting of people does anything beneficial for them, especially if Kpaca's role works the exact opposite role. It doesn't make alot of sense for a mod to setup this kind of scenario, but making it overwhelmingly better for one of the two.
Thusly, I support SB dying first. But it really doesn't matter, they should both just get vigged.
If one of them is lying at all, it is most likely SB. I'm not entirely convinced that his targetting of people does anything beneficial for them, especially if Kpaca's role works the exact opposite role. It doesn't make alot of sense for a mod to setup this kind of scenario, but making it overwhelmingly better for one of the two.
Thusly, I support SB dying first. But it really doesn't matter, they should both just get vigged.
Agreed. SB has been unable to tell us what benefits he confers. In fact, he has not even been able to confirm that he does confer benefits - refer back to this post:
Why did i come forth? I have reason to believe some powers are goo color related. As in, by changing some players colors, i could change their role powers / Gold-a-fy them. I would also, for offering this service, request being allowed to target neutrals and volunteers.
...
Reasoning for coming forward: I have a service to offer, and the town has no reason to not want it. (As the first post made it abundantly clear that there's powers that go off goo colors) And in exchange, I'm simply asking for volunteers to assist me.
Listen to the language there. "I have reason to believe"..."I could change their role powers"..."the first post".
It leads me to believe that SB has absolutely no role-based information that he will give powers to those he targets and that he completely extrapolated that information from the rules post. I think it much more likely that he, like kpaca, will gain powers from converting people to gold and that he has just tried a bit of gamesmanship while kpaca came in and told the truth.
Therefore, I don't trust him and I trust kpaca only a little bit more, and I would like both of them dead.
You could kill us one night after the other, and I'd be fine with that assuming Im the second one dead ;).
You shouldn't be. See my earlier post - chances are the people you can make gold can be changed to other colours. You really should be trying to build up as much of a lead as possible.
I agree with the first point. Regarding the second point, if there is a full vig who does not have any better targets, vigging Stormblind or kpaca would be fine by me, but a vig with a limited number of shots should aim to kill scum.
I would actually be a lot happier if one of SB or kpaca were dead. Once one is gone we can much more accurately evaluate the other one. Even a limited vig would be helping out the town by firing at one of them. The only real question is if we should give it a night to see if SB really is helping out the people he goldifies.
A gambit where they both claim neutral with knowledge of eachother, hence, in the highly likely chance that we turn around and kill one at some stage, the other is immediately outed? Seems a pretty unlikely gambit.
*cough* Mason Gambit *cough*. Clearly I've never seen that one before. Seems highly similar except here Rahl claimed first. If they're scum and have daytalk, it's quite possible that one of the following scenarios might have happened:
1. Rahl's "opposite" doesn't claim. If Rahl dies, he dies. Otherwise, the town keeps him alive and might trust him. Minimal exposure to the rest of the scum here even if Rahl dies.
2. Rahl's opposite claims and it's another scum member who ISNT kpaca. Same situation we're in now.
So a gambit here could easily have functioned as Rahl acting unilaterally, only to have a second scum jump in with him in kpaca. Rahl's quite insane enough to try something of this sort.
---------------------------------------------------------
Mind you, whatever they are, i'm strongly in favor of both dying by at least lets say day 4. Neither are town, both can very possibly have negative effects, etc etc. Note that even if they are neutral and harmless, theoretically the scum can turn one into a true survivor by killing off the other one. This would give an incentive to the survivor to help the winning side, which could very well be the scum (and probably will be if they're killing one of the two).
Anyhow, this is probably enough talk on this for now...we really ought to focus on the scummy players and leave these two for vigs.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
*cough* Mason Gambit *cough*. Clearly I've never seen that one before.
I was thinking the same thing, but the situations are only superficially similar. The town has no reason to kill (town) masons, but neutrals can't be trusted because they could side with either faction. It's a point in favor of the claimed neutrals telling the truth (as opposed to being mafia) but doesn't change the fact that they are still dangerous to keep around for too long.
Anyhow, this is probably enough talk on this for now...we really ought to focus on the scummy players and leave these two for vigs.
Definitely. I don't have a scum read on anyone yet. (Talore pinged my scumdar early but I'm giving him a pass for inexperience.) However, ChrisXIV and Buranri should post more, as well as anyone else with fewer posts than the mod. (zindabad has Internet issues, so he is exempt for now.)
*cough* Mason Gambit *cough*. Clearly I've never seen that one before. Seems highly similar except here Rahl claimed first. If they're scum and have daytalk, it's quite possible that one of the following scenarios might have happened:
1. Rahl's "opposite" doesn't claim. If Rahl dies, he dies. Otherwise, the town keeps him alive and might trust him. Minimal exposure to the rest of the scum here even if Rahl dies.
2. Rahl's opposite claims and it's another scum member who ISNT kpaca. Same situation we're in now.
So a gambit here could easily have functioned as Rahl acting unilaterally, only to have a second scum jump in with him in kpaca. Rahl's quite insane enough to try something of this sort.
---------------------------------------------------------
Mind you, whatever they are, i'm strongly in favor of both dying by at least lets say day 4. Neither are town, both can very possibly have negative effects, etc etc. Note that even if they are neutral and harmless, theoretically the scum can turn one into a true survivor by killing off the other one. This would give an incentive to the survivor to help the winning side, which could very well be the scum (and probably will be if they're killing one of the two).
Anyhow, this is probably enough talk on this for now...we really ought to focus on the scummy players and leave these two for vigs.
This makes me feel better about loran as compared to his initial reactions.
However, I am a bit confused as to the scenarios outlined. Once I figured out Rahl==Stormblind, that helped, but I'm still confused as to what's going on in those scenarios.
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I agree we should leave the neutrals for now, but we should come back to them before the day ends. What to do with their abilities and all.
/barn AI on that the low-posters should POST MOAR!
Now I shall sleep. See you in the morning, gentlemen.
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I don't think there's even the slightest possibility of this being a scum "gambit" to both claim "Neutral" color-changing opposites. How ridiculous would that be? Loran is losing a ton of credibility here by even seriously considering it.
I am perfectly willing to believe in the possibility that there's something more sinister going on with their roles, but not that they are actually Mafia together. No way.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I don't think there's even the slightest possibility of this being a scum "gambit" to both claim "Neutral" color-changing opposites. How ridiculous would that be? Loran is losing a ton of credibility here by even seriously considering it.
I am perfectly willing to believe in the possibility that there's something more sinister going on with their roles, but not that they are actually Mafia together. No way.
It would seem a lot easier to claim masons... then something that is more provable.
Alongside one putting the other in a bad light, and the other trying to get the former lynched, it seems extremely unlikely.
I think we should discuss more about the lynch rather than about the vig. I am for letting bot SB and Kpaca alive at least for one night to see what happen about them.
I think some people take too much care about neutrals. (And they are Neutrals, as the posts above clearly demonstrate.)
I don't think there's even the slightest possibility of this being a scum "gambit" to both claim "Neutral" color-changing opposites. How ridiculous would that be? Loran is losing a ton of credibility here by even seriously considering it.
I am perfectly willing to believe in the possibility that there's something more sinister going on with their roles, but not that they are actually Mafia together. No way.
I don't think there's even the slightest possibility of this being a scum "gambit" to both claim "Neutral" color-changing opposites. How ridiculous would that be? Loran is losing a ton of credibility here by even seriously considering it.
I am perfectly willing to believe in the possibility that there's something more sinister going on with their roles, but not that they are actually Mafia together. No way.
I was considering it as a possbility because of things just not adding up. If one of them dies early it would seem that the other should win the game which is weird (SB's thing about someone else taking over was very vague). The survivor would be left to do whatever he wants with no incentive to work with anyone. SB being gold seemed like too much of a coincidence given the way the colors are distributed. kpaca's orange color changing is also weird. If there was going to be some sort of make everyone a certain color thing going on I would imagine it would be between the Great Goo of the Sky Above and the Green Goo as there seems to be some sort of rivalry between them (unless I'm misintrepreting the flavor) and thus gold vs green would make sense and orange doesn't fit into that. I wanted to see if kpaca claimed that his color was orange because if they both "randomly" recieved their color that would be way too much of a coincidence. But yeah, them trying to get each other killed so badly makes absolutely no sense if they are running a scum gambit.
I was thinking the same thing, but the situations are only superficially similar. The town has no reason to kill (town) masons, but neutrals can't be trusted because they could side with either faction. It's a point in favor of the claimed neutrals telling the truth (as opposed to being mafia) but doesn't change the fact that they are still dangerous to keep around for too long.
Definitely. I don't have a scum read on anyone yet. (Talore pinged my scumdar early but I'm giving him a pass for inexperience.) However, ChrisXIV and Buranri should post more, as well as anyone else with fewer posts than the mod. (zindabad has Internet issues, so he is exempt for now.)
Either AI has gotten a lot better, or he's not scum this game. As scum in LOTR II (which I followed along with), his posts had this awful forced quality, whereas this game he's felt much more natural. Plus, I agree with his suspicion of Talore.
Yeah, the scum wasting one of our vig-shots would definitely be bad. I don't see why we would want to quickly vig someone who looks like a survivor, where a rolecop or the suggested goldifying of a scummy player could easily make or break SB. I took suspicion to it.
AI, could you justify your vote on me, or remove it? I'm not liking your playstyle right now.
What exactly are your thoughts on AI? You agree with him in the first part, then say that you don't like his playstyle in the second.
This pretty much confirms the two, as others have stated, so yeah, /barn AI.
I assume the "others" you are referring to is Zajnet. How does the post you quoted confirm them at all (@Zajnet -- let Talore answer first, then I'll ask you)? This post feels off; I feel like you're trying to go along with the general opinion, except that you've misperceived what the general opinion actually was.
Vote: Talore
I can't imagine why you would falseclaim gold if that's not your real color though.
I don't think Dagger's statement about color randomization means that every instance of color in the role pms is randomized. The way I interpreted it, the way he would do a role like SB claimed is to write it as "Color X," and give him the ability to change people into Color X and the win-con to turn more people into Color X than some other player can turn Color Y. Then all the colors would be randomized, but SB would always turn people into the color he starts off as. Otherwise, having color as a mechanic would be difficult to balance.
Maybe could direct all our vanilla targets at one or two townie seeming people?
No one's commented on this yet. Good idea or not? The main problem I can think of is if someone doesn't want to be targeted, they'd be forced to claim.
SB and kpaca:
With the second color changer claimed, at least the idea of a traditional cult leader can be pretty much thrown out. As he's claimed it though, kpaca's role doesn't help us at all. SB probably made up the fact that the people he targets gain benefits, but it's at least possible that there might be a benefit to leaving him alive. Thus, I'd prefer kpaca being vigged first if there are no better targets. We'll figure out what to do about SB later; there's no reason to decide right now.
Rahl, Kpaca: Clarification please.....do you actually change the color of the other players? Or do they just become "golden" in addition to their original color.
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I am neutral. Haven't argued otherwise. Merely that i was going to try to play as a townie.
The thing is, for the first night at least, I don't want you to have a huge bin to choose from. I want us to first get your ability validated and what happens to the one you target. Once that is established we could loosen your reigns somewhat.
However, now that kpaca has stepped forward this might have changed. I must ponder it some more.
I don't see how I was.
What was it you believed?
And who is it you want to apply LAL to? And for what?
This has struck me as well. From what they are claiming, they have no reason to care about anything else than living longer than their counterpart, so they can gain more recruits.
Why should we care if one of them wins? From what they are claiming, this'll have no impact on the town at all.
Not sure this means anything, but...
Up until now I assumed that SB weren't gold himself, but merely made other people gold. And likewise for his counterpart.
Also note that there are more possible colours (26 by my count) than players.
Eh, it's worth a try...
@Mod: Can you confirm or deny that all goo had their colour assigned randomly?
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I'll confirm the following statement:
Goocount
loran16 (1) - Talore
Archmage Eternal (1) - zindabad
Zchinque (1) - RobRoy
Dancing Mad (1) - StormBlind
StormBlind (1) - kpaca
With 21 Goo alive, it’s 11 Goo to Lynch.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
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Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
If it truly is random, that means that the gold recruiter randomly got the gold colored goo!
AWESOME.
That is odd luck.
I can't imagine why you would falseclaim gold if that's not your real color though.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
I Wouldn't.
Colors are assigned randomly independently of roles, but it doesn't mean that roles cannot be influenced by the color. Maybe Dagger assigned you the color gold first, and them assigned your role, choosing the gold color because it was yours.
[The Family] pressed the "lynch" button, thinking it was labeled "lunch" .
Pretty sure it means colors are completely random and have nothing to do with role. Regardless we can probably figure that out from whatever kpaca is.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
So Kpaca and SB are the neutrals that have to change colors. SB claims that Kpaca is a 'evil' force, Kpaca says they are both neutral, correct? And SB's color change possibly gives bonuses, whereas Kpaca's gives him some sort of bonus, correct?
Ok, so. Questions. Yeah.
@SB: Is Kpaca's 'evil' part of your PM most likely flavor or do you believe him to be scum/SK? I have more questions pending your answer.
@Kpaca: What good/evil implications does your PM make again?
@Both: Do either of you know for sure that these changes grant abilities? The 'benefit the town/grant stuff' part of the roles seems like bait for a bad idea.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Theoretically. More on this subject after kpaca gets back.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
Also, part of me doesn't like that - if one of these guy was eliminated early - the other would basically auto-win the game. That seems wrong, completely aside from being unfun. Which makes me nervous.
It would also leave the survivor as a loose cannon that has no real incentive to work with the town. Right now they have to go along with what we say, at least in broad strokes, or risk getting killed, and thus losing.
They wouldn't have any real incentive to work with the scum either, but they could not be trusted.
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I Wont bother putting myself forward, its pretty obvious i want to survive. I have reasons to state you should choose me, I have beneficial powers as long as im alive, compared to kpaca just making himself stronger, I came forward from the start, Ive answered every question honestly and openly, I've basically put myself under town supervision from the start, ect.
Not to mention, even when i cant win (FF7 mafia), which i consider pretty close to having won, i actively participated in scum hunting and was instrumental in nailing 2 scum via Vigging. (Kraj among them if i remember right).
But i wont mention that, but would appreciate atleast knowing the thought processes currently.
Okay now I'm less sure about this gambit.
Need to see what kpaca says.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
I'm still in favour of leaving them alone for now, although I do support any vig shots being aimed at them. Once one dies we can more accurately evaluate the other one.
Uhm. What gambit?
The general tenor this page is that you dont want 2 unchecked neutrals running around as we could be quite a thorn supposedly. But unless there's a double lynch you feel like wasting on neutrals to ensure we BOTH lose, or multiple vigs you, again, feel like using to ensure we both lose... one of us will win, and the other will lose. You could kill us one night after the other, and I'd be fine with that assuming Im the second one dead ;).
This one
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
I feel somewhat better about Talore because he is relatively inexperienced.
Obviously. This was meant to apply only to full-power vigs with no other obvious targets or that are not directed by the town.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I don't see why not; gaming the mod seems unwise. The roles claimed are like a hybrid between a traditional survivor and cultist, where surviving to the endgame is ideal but not necessary. Survivors tend to side with whichever faction is winning, and I suspect that with these roles, had they not been made public Day One, would have done something similar, with the neutral in lead siding with the winning faction and the other neutral siding with the losing group. Personally I see little risk in keeping them alive for the next couple Days and waiting to see if they are telling the truth. Worst comes to worst we can always lynch or vig them later.
B)'We can always deal with them later' is the kiss of death. SB and Kpaca should be vigged as soon as possible, and that's it.
You said:
...which by implication means, "Dagger wouldn't write the roles in such and such a way." That would be gaming the mod. Regardless, this is not particularly relevant to the game at hand.
If they are to be vigged, is the order that they die relevant? I would recommend vigging kpaca first due to the nature of his role (giving himself abilities instead of helping others) but in the end it makes little difference to everyone else if they are both killed this way.
@Talore: Typically cop investigations return "Town" or "Non-Town" so targeting a claimed neutral would provide no information whatsoever.
But regardless, even if you assume that they are being 100% truthful, what motivation do they have to work on the side of the town? Absolutely zero. If someone is not an asset to the town, they are a liability. There is no middle ground.
I mentioned that the roles claimed are similar to survivors in that staying alive longer is better for them (but not surviving to the end is not necessary). I don't see how the claimed roles do not make sense with regards to what we expect from Mafia.
At first I was going to say that they have some motivation because otherwise we simply kill them, but it's hard to draw a line at some point and say, "You guys aren't pulling your weight, time to die." Also by then we would really rather kill mafia and mowing through neutrals would simply slow us down. I'm starting to see your point, not that I was strictly against the vigging of the neutrals to begin with.
Is "kill all neutrals" generally correct in the early game? I don't any experience in this regard.
Lynching (non-SK) neutrals is a bad idea, as it gives little-to-no information. Vigging them is a decent plan, if there are no better targets.
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=52729
I'm taking more of a wait and see approach for the moment. Maybe something more attractive will present itself, and maybe not.
Thusly, I support SB dying first. But it really doesn't matter, they should both just get vigged.
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Agreed. SB has been unable to tell us what benefits he confers. In fact, he has not even been able to confirm that he does confer benefits - refer back to this post:
Listen to the language there. "I have reason to believe"..."I could change their role powers"..."the first post".
It leads me to believe that SB has absolutely no role-based information that he will give powers to those he targets and that he completely extrapolated that information from the rules post. I think it much more likely that he, like kpaca, will gain powers from converting people to gold and that he has just tried a bit of gamesmanship while kpaca came in and told the truth.
Therefore, I don't trust him and I trust kpaca only a little bit more, and I would like both of them dead.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
You shouldn't be. See my earlier post - chances are the people you can make gold can be changed to other colours. You really should be trying to build up as much of a lead as possible.
I would actually be a lot happier if one of SB or kpaca were dead. Once one is gone we can much more accurately evaluate the other one. Even a limited vig would be helping out the town by firing at one of them. The only real question is if we should give it a night to see if SB really is helping out the people he goldifies.
@SB and kpaca (answer separately even if you have the same answer):
1. What happens if you tie with one another?
2. If someone you gold/orangify dies, what happens? Do they count towards your win-con?
Thoughts coming later tonight.
Vig Kpaca
They hate us cause they ain't us.
*cough* Mason Gambit *cough*. Clearly I've never seen that one before. Seems highly similar except here Rahl claimed first. If they're scum and have daytalk, it's quite possible that one of the following scenarios might have happened:
1. Rahl's "opposite" doesn't claim. If Rahl dies, he dies. Otherwise, the town keeps him alive and might trust him. Minimal exposure to the rest of the scum here even if Rahl dies.
2. Rahl's opposite claims and it's another scum member who ISNT kpaca. Same situation we're in now.
So a gambit here could easily have functioned as Rahl acting unilaterally, only to have a second scum jump in with him in kpaca. Rahl's quite insane enough to try something of this sort.
---------------------------------------------------------
Mind you, whatever they are, i'm strongly in favor of both dying by at least lets say day 4. Neither are town, both can very possibly have negative effects, etc etc. Note that even if they are neutral and harmless, theoretically the scum can turn one into a true survivor by killing off the other one. This would give an incentive to the survivor to help the winning side, which could very well be the scum (and probably will be if they're killing one of the two).
Anyhow, this is probably enough talk on this for now...we really ought to focus on the scummy players and leave these two for vigs.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I was thinking the same thing, but the situations are only superficially similar. The town has no reason to kill (town) masons, but neutrals can't be trusted because they could side with either faction. It's a point in favor of the claimed neutrals telling the truth (as opposed to being mafia) but doesn't change the fact that they are still dangerous to keep around for too long.
Definitely. I don't have a scum read on anyone yet. (Talore pinged my scumdar early but I'm giving him a pass for inexperience.) However, ChrisXIV and Buranri should post more, as well as anyone else with fewer posts than the mod. (zindabad has Internet issues, so he is exempt for now.)
This makes me feel better about loran as compared to his initial reactions.
However, I am a bit confused as to the scenarios outlined. Once I figured out Rahl==Stormblind, that helped, but I'm still confused as to what's going on in those scenarios.
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
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/barn AI on that the low-posters should POST MOAR!
Now I shall sleep. See you in the morning, gentlemen.
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I am perfectly willing to believe in the possibility that there's something more sinister going on with their roles, but not that they are actually Mafia together. No way.
It would seem a lot easier to claim masons... then something that is more provable.
Alongside one putting the other in a bad light, and the other trying to get the former lynched, it seems extremely unlikely.
I think some people take too much care about neutrals. (And they are Neutrals, as the posts above clearly demonstrate.)
[The Family] pressed the "lynch" button, thinking it was labeled "lunch" .
/barn on all points.
I really want to hear back from loran as to how that logic is supposed to make sense.
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I was considering it as a possbility because of things just not adding up. If one of them dies early it would seem that the other should win the game which is weird (SB's thing about someone else taking over was very vague). The survivor would be left to do whatever he wants with no incentive to work with anyone. SB being gold seemed like too much of a coincidence given the way the colors are distributed. kpaca's orange color changing is also weird. If there was going to be some sort of make everyone a certain color thing going on I would imagine it would be between the Great Goo of the Sky Above and the Green Goo as there seems to be some sort of rivalry between them (unless I'm misintrepreting the flavor) and thus gold vs green would make sense and orange doesn't fit into that. I wanted to see if kpaca claimed that his color was orange because if they both "randomly" recieved their color that would be way too much of a coincidence. But yeah, them trying to get each other killed so badly makes absolutely no sense if they are running a scum gambit.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
On AI:
Either AI has gotten a lot better, or he's not scum this game. As scum in LOTR II (which I followed along with), his posts had this awful forced quality, whereas this game he's felt much more natural. Plus, I agree with his suspicion of Talore.
Talore:
What exactly are your thoughts on AI? You agree with him in the first part, then say that you don't like his playstyle in the second.
I assume the "others" you are referring to is Zajnet. How does the post you quoted confirm them at all (@Zajnet -- let Talore answer first, then I'll ask you)? This post feels off; I feel like you're trying to go along with the general opinion, except that you've misperceived what the general opinion actually was.
Vote: Talore
falkonn:
Why?
Mechanics:
I don't think Dagger's statement about color randomization means that every instance of color in the role pms is randomized. The way I interpreted it, the way he would do a role like SB claimed is to write it as "Color X," and give him the ability to change people into Color X and the win-con to turn more people into Color X than some other player can turn Color Y. Then all the colors would be randomized, but SB would always turn people into the color he starts off as. Otherwise, having color as a mechanic would be difficult to balance.
No one's commented on this yet. Good idea or not? The main problem I can think of is if someone doesn't want to be targeted, they'd be forced to claim.
SB and kpaca:
With the second color changer claimed, at least the idea of a traditional cult leader can be pretty much thrown out. As he's claimed it though, kpaca's role doesn't help us at all. SB probably made up the fact that the people he targets gain benefits, but it's at least possible that there might be a benefit to leaving him alive. Thus, I'd prefer kpaca being vigged first if there are no better targets. We'll figure out what to do about SB later; there's no reason to decide right now.
By the way, did you guys answer this?