So...he was a traitor. That lends some credence to the "everyone's a traitor" theory, whether they know it or not.
Quote from AI »
Actually, there's a good chance that Nakamura knew he was a traitor and simply declined to inform us, especially considering two other traitors know of their ambiguous alignment.
Time to look over who attacked Nakamura (Zchinque comes to mind first and foremost) and determine whether they were opportunistic or justified.
This... actually makes me feel a little better about AI.
Wow.... Can you read? I ROLEBLOCK PEOPLE!! My other ability I am keeping to myself. But you are identical to me except that you have two abilities than you can use ie one or the other, where I can only use my second ability twice and flavor wise my second ability blends well with my first ability which yours good sir does not.
That being said I agree with the bastard mod part of the game. I honestly do not think that me counterclaiming you makes you scum. Also, after I counterclaimed you, you seem to still be trying. Which I could make an argument for either alignment, but for the moment I am going to say that you are town. So, Unvote.
Also, I think that you should investigate a person tonight.
In other news writing Nak off as a gambit, I have done similar things, but would like someone to at least investigate him.
If Zchinque comes up scum, then couldn't we assume that both of the "confirmed" players (at the very least) are not scum?
Anyways, I do not like Zchinque or his posts and I was going to roleblock him tonight. So, Vote Zchinque
No, you're certainly not alone - I didn't like him earlier today, either. And your assessment of his posts is spot-on.
I don't like the Zchinque wagon, and I'm lukewarm on AI at the moment, but I'm in full support of further scrutiny for Some One who has been scummy pretty much all day.
Vote: Some One
A vote reset makes this more of a possibility.
@Some One: Who are your top two or three picks for scum and for town?
In spite of just getting stabbed in the back, I'm still against the AI wagon. Backtracking off Syrenz isnt anything inexplicable given that it was an activity prod, and attacking AI for getting irate I think is somewhat akin to attacking Cyan for tunnel-vision.
What does my active townie mode look like? *boggle*
Earlier in the Day you complained when people referred to you as a townie because you didn't want to get NK'd. While you probably aren't going to use the same excuse now, that comment bothered me then and even now I'm still leery about the implication that you shouldn't/don't want to present yourself as town because you're afraid of the scum. As I said back then, if you're town you're going to get NK'd eventually, if not immediately then within the first few Nights.
At this point, I'm so townie it ought to hurt to look at me if you know what to look for.
Instead, we have people concentrating on the fact that I'm behaving oddly, with hidden motivations behind many of my actions. That's DV and Tilde's gut reads. Shouldn't exactly be surprising, if you know me. I'm tricksy, I'm covert, and I can be manipulative. But if you've been paying any attention at all, it should be pretty clear who I've been being tricksy for.
I've taken my best shot at giving us a wagon that's not simply an "exhaustion, so let's kill sombody" option. I'll keep chipping away at that.
But if the town isn't heading that direction, we need folks to come forward with other options to move us forward before the people pushing AI send us tripping into an inertia lynch.
I've taken my best shot at giving us a wagon that's not simply an "exhaustion, so let's kill sombody" option. I'll keep chipping away at that.
But if the town isn't heading that direction, we need folks to come forward with other options to move us forward before the people pushing AI send us tripping into an inertia lynch.
While I'm not familiar with Zchinque's scum meta, his play here doesn't seem too different from how I've seen town-Zchinque act.
As for you, Azrael, your recent play is nothing like your scum-play in Symbiote. I don't think you stuck your neck out even once in that game. However, being Az, that is barely a point at all in your favor, as I don't doubt that you are able to switch up your playstyle as it suits you. In addition, RobRoy's game was fairly standard as far as Specialties go; the roles were straightforward for the most part and there were only a few truly surprising events (such as Seppel's teleportation and subsequent disappearance). Meanwhile, as a purported bastard game with at least one, and probably three or more, traitors, this is quite a different experience. Just because your behavior on the surface is different does not tell me much about your mindset, which I'm having trouble interpreting.
If the backstabbing reference raises your eyebrows, simply keep in mind that I'm not especially pleased with being stymied in putting away Zchinque and having to deal with narrow-sighted gut reads simultaneously.
Just because your behavior on the surface is different does not tell me much about your mindset, which I'm having trouble interpreting.
That's not surprising. You're not going to be able to read me unless you get down into the gritty details.
The fact that I'm playing differently tells you nothing of value. For that matter, the fact that I'm playing similarly often tells you nothing of value. Being reminded of someone's play in another game is not a substitute for a thorough parsing of mindset and actions.
If you parse mine, you ought to see that I've been plugging away furiously at multiple leads, that I've been shifting drastically in response to new information as it comes in, that I've been subtly eliciting new information throughout the day, that I've been leading the town without fear of exposure or overextension, and that all my stances are clearly linked and responsive to information stimuli. I've been inquisitive, curious, and aside from a lull last week, zealous in prosecuting multiple wagons and cases. I've avoided easy lynches, my avoidance has been linked to my analysis, and I've defended players who are not easy to defend - sometimes changing my mind mid-stream. Once you get past the smoke and mirrors I put up to keep the scum and my targets off-balance, my mindset here is an open book.
Am I good enough to do all that as scum? Probably to a lot of people's eyes, if they're dozing on the job. I could probably even leave a lot of analysts mystified, as to what my status was, as scum. But when I'm playing hard town to the best of my abilities, not putting up that charade, someone who's paying attention ought to be able to see the full depth and extent of my activity and see a really thorough pro-town record, through and through.
To be clear: If I'm being scum or half-hearted town, you might have a hard time reading me. But when I'm being hard town, I don't think there's much excuse for not picking up on that. And that's what I'm doing in this game. It's a distinctive style that most of you probably haven't seen before, or haven't seen it in a long while. But I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that obv-town Azrael is really, really obviously town.
People miss that on account of paranoia or lack of thoroughness a lot, but it's there for the finding.
Azrael's hyper-awareness of how townie he is and how every action he's done has been for the done has me convinced that he's town. After all, obv-town Azrael is really, really obviously town
See, that just sounds like AI is your scum buddy. You stick your neck out for him and he backstabs you and distances. Who talks about being stabbed in the back by a fellow townie?
At this point, I'm so townie it ought to hurt to look at me if you know what to look for.
If you say so.
Instead, we have people concentrating on the fact that I'm behaving oddly,
No- well, yes, a few people have, but we've got past that. It's a case of concentrating on the fact that you have unquestionably been making a lot of iffy arguments. I know you're capable of being really wrong as town though (amazing, I know), so I don't have you down as scum YET, but you have been sliding that way in my estimation in the last few page.
As for the fact that you're leading from the front and actively pursuing wagons... well, that happens to be a very strong scum style. I know it (cf. most of my scum games) and you know it (cf. many of yours; I remember the uphill climb I had to convince people you were scum in God Mafia because you did this). Done well, and it controls the game.
@ Syrenz - Although it's retroactive, my answers don't change. I thought he was town, and that his behavior made sense given his claim at the time. What was the issue?
I had individual analyses on these, but I'm lazy and it crashed. Just look at these. He calls Rafaelk, Talore, dropkickdude, TFF, AI, WoD, and Some One scum in the span of what, 2 days, perhaps 3? All of them are baseless accusations, and even on back-to-back posts he calls TFF town then scum. I think he's playing opportunistic, trying to start wagons by throwing as much baseless crap as he can, and I would also guess that his claim is fake, riffing off of ~V~'s claim and taking it a step further, coupling with the convenient defense that he doesn't know what he is, for the purposes of having to claim a PR or get lynched.
Unvote; Vote Nakamura
Basically saying that Nakamura has been jumping around and trying to get wagons started and that he is scum.
3)
2 posts later, you say this:
Quote from Some One »
Talore has made a good point. Nakamura is certainly on a boat with flippy floppies.
Now, you didn't say, "Nakamura is on a boat with flippy floppies, which is in line with his claim." . What you said was clearly agreement with Talore's point ("Talore has made a good point"). And Talore's point here was that Nakamura was scum for flip-flopping. So you implied that Nakamura was scummy, despite having implied that he was not before. You were clearly not trying to say that his behavior made sense and was in-line with his claim in that post.
Let 'em have it, there's no law that says we have to pick off the scum one at a time.
I haven't decided my stance on Z yet, and I don't want the wagon to stop rolling before its time. Introducing another case would distract from what is currently going on.
Private Mod Note
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A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
While I'm not familiar with Zchinque's scum meta, his play here doesn't seem too different from how I've seen town-Zchinque act.
My scum meta consists of only one game so far, Newb 11 from well over three years ago. Ended in a perfect scum win. And I must say I was quite pleased with myself when I on the final night managed to draw the doc protect from LookingforReality, while picking off Sjelfrost, the cop.
Don't forget the flavor detail. I'm very interested in that (also, your expenses record). But don't do a Nakamura, obviously.
There really isn't much to it other than what I've said already.
First it mentions that it's not uncommon for British politicians to have served in the armed forces. Then that I have, as I mentioned, never served in any of the regular armed forces, everything was completely off records. Following it mentions that I performed secret assassinations for the MI6. Lurking in the dark, never found, never caught. After my time with the MI6, I made career in diplomacy, much thanks to my quick instincts.
Sprinkled throughout all of this is flavour of me assembling and loading my rifle, before taking it apart again.
If you need anything more than that, I will have to run it by desCoures.
As for my duck house, that was a completely legitimate business expense. I use it in my office as a paper weight.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to call someone to install my new gold toilet.
Private Mod Note
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Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Picross 3D
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
I'm going to Florida for a couple days, I'll be back monday & will address the case against me and answer Syrenz questions further next week if I do not get a chance sooner.
For town:
MH
IBug
Z
For scum:
I want to take a look at several specific individuals & will address this properly in the future.
Az is Town in my eyes because he's been very active at identifying scum tells, subsequently calling people on them, and (most importantly) listening to their reactions. The biggest point against him, it seems, is that he's good enough to do that as scum and make it look real. If that's the case, why not just lynch him D1 anyways because he's too good?
When I initially voted for Zch here, I gave reasoning. The reasoning hasn't changed.
He said that AI was pushing things too far, but the "fundamentals had merit." That's a little fence-sitty to me.
My second point about his non-committal attack on Nakamura to start could be explained by his vig claim as trying to not bypass the Town, but 1-shot vig is easy to claim as Mafia and who uses a sniper rifle indoors anyways?
And now we have his reactions to pressure. Az is absolutely correct about Z's mindset tell. He's arguing that killing a townie N1 with a one-shot ability wouldn't be "that bad" because that person was acting scummy. It makes no sense. If the ability is one-shot, you need to save it until it's really useful, and that's as an extra lynch. You shouldn't waste it D1 on someone who tried to pull a gambit without thinking it through clearly, and you really shouldn't be trying to justify it by saying the target was a Townie acting scummy. Point A and point B are not able to be connected here.
If the backstabbing reference raises your eyebrows, simply keep in mind that I'm not especially pleased with being stymied in putting away Zchinque and having to deal with narrow-sighted gut reads simultaneously.
<snip a bunch of self-meta mumbo-jumbo about how he's clearly town.>
Let the hand-waving begin.
And again with the legalese talk-off when questioned (you might recall I had to ask for a follow-up answer in English earlier that still wasn't very direct). Let me translate: Az isn't happy you all are bothering him with your 'petty gut reads' on him while he's trying to get Zchinque lynched [using clearly superior mafia tactics].
Azrael's hyper-awareness of how townie he is and how every action he's done has been for the done has me convinced that he's town. After all, obv-town Azrael is really, really obviously town
Huh. Weren't you just questioning his "backstabbing" comment? Were you truly swayed by that first paragraph above?
I am really starting to see DYH's point of view, this is painfull to watch.
Yes, yes it is. Not only do the masses willingly vote whomever Azrael decides should be voted, we now have people piling on the "Az is town" bus already day one because he said so.
Az is Town in my eyes because he's been very active at identifying scum tells, subsequently calling people on them, and (most importantly) listening to their reactions. The biggest point against him, it seems, is that he's good enough to do that as scum and make it look real. If that's the case, why not just lynch him D1 anyways because he's too good?
You have a good argument all the way up to the point where you make an overexaggeration and giant logical fallacy. Why are you discrediting the idea that Azrael is just that good as scum to lead people around by the nose? You're clearly posting tongue-in-cheek with that last line, and I don't think RafK or I, or any of the other few dissenting voices are saying that Az needs to be lynched today, especially because he's "too good" - this is where you go off-track with your strawman. I am, and have been all game, simply advocating to proceed with caution and use your own freaking brains.
Bottom line: if Az is scum, we're screwed because he has half the town in his pocket.
Quote from DKD »
When I initially voted for Zch here, I gave reasoning. The reasoning hasn't changed.
He said that AI was pushing things too far, but the "fundamentals had merit." That's a little fence-sitty to me.
My second point about his non-committal attack on Nakamura to start could be explained by his vig claim as trying to not bypass the Town, but 1-shot vig is easy to claim as Mafia and who uses a sniper rifle indoors anyways?
Flavor and claim setup speculation is weak. "A little fence-sitty" is hardly damning. These are not good points. But more importantly, RafK debunked the meat of Azrael's argument in the post after yours.
Didn't you also say that in that very same post you linked above that what Naka was doing couldn't have come from a town mindset? I'm not sure that's meshing with getting on board with Az's case as you're doing below.
Quote from DKD »
And now we have his reactions to pressure. Az is absolutely correct about Z's mindset tell. He's arguing that killing a townie N1 with a one-shot ability wouldn't be "that bad" because that person was acting scummy. It makes no sense. If the ability is one-shot, you need to save it until it's really useful, and that's as an extra lynch. You shouldn't waste it D1 on someone who tried to pull a gambit without thinking it through clearly, and you really shouldn't be trying to justify it by saying the target was a Townie acting scummy. Point A and point B are not able to be connected here.
Or you could easily make the argument that he's saving the town a mislynch if he's wrong, which is what I read from it. He's said "scum or liability" I dont' know how many times now. Best-case, he feels that he shoots a scum. Worst-case, someone who was likely going to distract the town dies.
Wait... why does this sound familiar? Some kind of points for anyone who gets it.
I never said that I think DYH is right, simply that I see his point of view, and that watching the ai wagon breaking up because az steps in and says "this is not right" annoys me quite a bit.
Skander is not doing a great job of being sarcastic there, but he is nonetheless trying
ced got it.
I was aiming for sarcasm. Basically the fact that Az can go ahead and self-analyze himself and point to everything he's doing as super townie does not convince me at all. I especially don't like the last couple of paragraphs which are essentially exaggerated Seppelisim's.
Also, I missed Syrenz point on Some One before. I am now also awaiting an answer.
If the backstabbing reference raises your eyebrows, simply keep in mind that I'm not especially pleased with being stymied in putting away Zchinque and having to deal with narrow-sighted gut reads simultaneously.
That's not surprising. You're not going to be able to read me unless you get down into the gritty details.
The fact that I'm playing differently tells you nothing of value. For that matter, the fact that I'm playing similarly often tells you nothing of value. Being reminded of someone's play in another game is not a substitute for a thorough parsing of mindset and actions.
If you parse mine, you ought to see that I've been plugging away furiously at multiple leads, that I've been shifting drastically in response to new information as it comes in, that I've been subtly eliciting new information throughout the day, that I've been leading the town without fear of exposure or overextension, and that all my stances are clearly linked and responsive to information stimuli. I've been inquisitive, curious, and aside from a lull last week, zealous in prosecuting multiple wagons and cases. I've avoided easy lynches, my avoidance has been linked to my analysis, and I've defended players who are not easy to defend - sometimes changing my mind mid-stream. Once you get past the smoke and mirrors I put up to keep the scum and my targets off-balance, my mindset here is an open book.
Am I good enough to do all that as scum? Probably to a lot of people's eyes, if they're dozing on the job. I could probably even leave a lot of analysts mystified, as to what my status was, as scum. But when I'm playing hard town to the best of my abilities, not putting up that charade, someone who's paying attention ought to be able to see the full depth and extent of my activity and see a really thorough pro-town record, through and through.
To be clear: If I'm being scum or half-hearted town, you might have a hard time reading me. But when I'm being hard town, I don't think there's much excuse for not picking up on that. And that's what I'm doing in this game. It's a distinctive style that most of you probably haven't seen before, or haven't seen it in a long while. But I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that obv-town Azrael is really, really obviously town.
People miss that on account of paranoia or lack of thoroughness a lot, but it's there for the finding.
Wow is that an overdefensive, overreaction. -All this says to me is that Az's motivation here isn't catching scum, rather, the motivation for his actions is looking really, really town-like.
@Ced: I've been pushing this all day; it's not a new reaction for me. And now RafK can take away my sarcasm card - I thought Skander was legitimately sold on Az's post. Color me embarrassed.
You have a good argument all the way up to the point where you make an overexaggeration and giant logical fallacy. Why are you discrediting the idea that Azrael is just that good as scum to lead people around by the nose? You're clearly posting tongue-in-cheek with that last line, and I don't think RafK or I, or any of the other few dissenting voices are saying that Az needs to be lynched today, especially because he's "too good" - this is where you go off-track with your strawman. I am, and have been all game, simply advocating to proceed with caution and use your own freaking brains.
Bottom line: if Az is scum, we're screwed because he has half the town in his pocket.
I'm not "discrediting the idea that Azrael is just that good as scum to lead people around by the nose" at all. I'm saying that it's terrible to say "Az is acting so Townie, he deserves pressure." And it's borderline offensive for you to imply that I am "in [Az's] pocket" and not using my "own freaking brain." Az made some cursory points about Z, I didn't agree at first, he made some better points, I started to agree, I reread Z, didn't like what I saw in addition to what Az was saying, posted my own thoughts, and voted. Please tell me how that adds up to me being an Az flunkie with no brain. Especially since we still disagree about AI. I've said in no uncertain terms that I still think AI is scum, in stark disagreement with Az. Care to try this again Mr Unlynchable?
Flavor and claim setup speculation is weak. "A little fence-sitty" is hardly damning. These are not good points. But more importantly, RafK debunked the meat of Azrael's argument in the post after yours.
These were my additions to what Az had already brought up. Not trying to be damning, but they are legitimate concerns.
Didn't you also say that in that very same post you linked above that what Naka was doing couldn't have come from a town mindset? I'm not sure that's meshing with getting on board with Az's case as you're doing below.
I did. I said that there was no townie explanation for the lying Naka did. That doesn't rule out terribad play (which it turns out was the case). I don't think Az's case was predicated on Naka being Town, but rather the way that Z implied she was and needed to die anyways.
Or you could easily make the argument that he's saving the town a mislynch if he's wrong, which is what I read from it. He's said "scum or liability" I dont' know how many times now. Best-case, he feels that he shoots a scum. Worst-case, someone who was likely going to distract the town dies.
That's not the point here. Z was trying to convince everyone that Naka's death would be good for everyone even if she was Town, while at the same time still trying to show her as scummy. It reads as a smear on someone he knows is Town, but is trying to create plausible deniability for killing her.
I never said that I think DYH is right, simply that I see his point of view, and that watching the ai wagon breaking up because az steps in and says "this is not right" annoys me quite a bit.
On the contrary, I'd be happy to vote AI - despite what Az thinks. The wagon was dissipating anyways (because his scumbuddies wouldn't kill him), so I decided to put my vote to work elsewhere.
I'm not "discrediting the idea that Azrael is just that good as scum to lead people around by the nose" at all. I'm saying that it's terrible to say "Az is acting so Townie, he deserves pressure."
And nowhere did I say Az deserved any pressure. I said you (collective) need to exercise caution and use your own freaking brains.
Moreover, you were discrediting it for the very reason I said you were - you made an hyperbolic statement of "well, why don't we just lynch him D1 of every game?" to show your contempt for the idea.
Quote from DKD »
And it's borderline offensive for you to imply that I am "in [Az's] pocket" and not using my "own freaking brain."
I'm done apologizing for calling a sheep a sheep. Did you, or did you not, just say "Az is town" in a previous post? The prosecution rests, your honor.
Quote from DKD »
Az made some cursory points about Z, I didn't agree at first, he made some better points, I started to agree, I reread Z, didn't like what I saw in addition to what Az was saying, posted my own thoughts, and voted. Please tell me how that adds up to me being an Az flunkie with no brain. Especially since we still disagree about AI. I've said in no uncertain terms that I still think AI is scum, in stark disagreement with Az.
See above and below. This game's entire direction has been at Azrael's whim.
Quote from DKD »
Care to try this again Mr Unlynchable?
Non-sequitur and antagonistic. Duly noted.
Quote from DKD »
These were my additions to what Az had already brought up. Not trying to be damning, but they are legitimate concerns.
I don't think they're worth voting someone over, but you seem to be missing the point. Why Zchinque? (hint: because Az looked at him first.)
Quote from DKD »
I did. I said that there was no townie explanation for the lying Naka did. That doesn't rule out terribad play (which it turns out was the case). I don't think Az's case was predicated on Naka being Town, but rather the way that Z implied she was and needed to die anyways.
That's not at all what I get from what Zchinque said. I don't think Zchinque ever thought Naka was more likely town than scum, hence the "scum or liability" comments.
Quote from DKD »
That's not the point here. Z was trying to convince everyone that Naka's death would be good for everyone even if she was Town, while at the same time still trying to show her as scummy. It reads as a smear on someone he knows is Town, but is trying to create plausible deniability for killing her.
That most certainly is the point here since you and I are reading two different things in what Zchinque said.
Quote from DKD »
And I'm the Az flunkie? This sounds like a play straight out of page 1 of Az's playbook. Care to get your own material?
Yeah, it was a sarcastic jab at Azrael; I'm so glad you caught it. Now, do you understand the point I'm making or not?
Quote from DKD »
On the contrary, I'd be happy to vote AI - despite what Az thinks. The wagon was dissipating anyways (because his scumbuddies wouldn't kill him), so I decided to put my vote to work elsewhere.
Read: I decided to stay on the Azrael train even though I think AI is scum. Got it.
1. He isn't mafia (at the moment, at least). Doesn't necessarily mean he's town, though.
2. He's withholding important info. Most likely from both his flavor summary and his role mechanic claim. Traitor is a possiblity, but not the main one.
3. He should probably die anyway.
Ok, I'd like to explain my theory further, but it involves putting some of my unrevealed role info on the table - info that I wanted to hold onto until after I see what the Traitor ability even does. So, you guys would have to lynch me today.
I'm not looking at the information that you are right now, but this sounds pretty far out there.
Why does this reaction come now? One person says they think that Az is town (Skander is not doing a great job of being sarcastic there, but he is nonetheless trying), but several more are already questioning him.
Three people (including Az) are on the Zchinque wagon. Several more people are publicly against it. The non-Az people aren't just barning Az, we're also doing our own analysis.
Yet you (and ~V~) try to apply this argument now? Maybe it was relevant earlier, but here it is ridiculous.
*Nods*
We have a problem with getting townies to do their homework in this thread. We do not have a problem with barning specific persons.
Wow is that an overdefensive, overreaction. -All this says to me is that Az's motivation here isn't catching scum, rather, the motivation for his actions is looking really, really town-like.
Unvote; Vote: Az
Quote from DYH »
Yes, yes it is. Not only do the masses willingly vote whomever Azrael decides should be voted, we now have people piling on the "Az is town" bus already day one because he said so.
Your sheep argument was wrong-headed and a little condescending the first time around. It's still both of those things now.
We now have more people latching on to your idea of "people who agree with Az are Sheep", than people who are in agreement with me. I don't think that means that you're stronger Ta'veren: it means you have an idea that caught people's notice.
The point where I continue to agree with you is that we have a number of players who aren't yet putting in the effort to give themselves the information they need to make intelligent decisions about the game. Frankly, I'm a little angry for DKD and Ced's sakes that you're painting them with that same brush, after they've repeatedly made their own independent arguments on that score.
Neither of us are herding sheep in this game. But we do have players who aren't thinking things through, and as a result we're disorganized and splintered.
Am I sitting in my high chair, sipping tea and nibbling crumpits, turning up my nose at people's gut reads? I can own up to something like that. You ought to know as well as I do by this point that gut reads lose the town games, they don't win them.
You can't read people accurately if your analysis process is whatever passing fancy strikes you.
When I post my analysis, I don't ask people to trust me on it. I ask them to read it for themselves and form their own conclusions.
When I say that I'm really obviously townie this game, it's not because I'm asking anyone to take it on faith. I'm asking them to look for themselves.
If looking up people's posts before you decide what their alignment is, is too much to expect, then we should pack it up and concede to the scum right now, because we won't deserve a win. I'm finding myself wondering whether I really want to be a member of this town anymore.
The proportion of people who are committed to analysis in this game isn't that great to begin with, and now people who actually are doing an ok job are being painted as either demagogues or brainless sheep? Our teams sucks!
Prove me wrong, Az. Go back and read this game and tell me I'm wrong.
You can't.
You can sit there and call it "wrong-headed" or "condescending" all you want, but the ebb and flow of votes in this game speaks absolute volumes.
I've already complimented Ced once or twice in this thread for his analysis, and you're right - he is doing his part. I apologize.
I tried to get movement on the two people I've found scummy, but 1) given my intial blow-up I've lost credability, and 2) the topic never gets away from your target. Well, except maybe when I interject to point that out.
I'm curious. What about RafK? Why is it you fail to mention him at all?
Prove me wrong, Az. Go back and read this game and tell me I'm wrong.
You can't.
You can sit there and call it "wrong-headed" or "condescending" all you want, but the ebb and flow of votes in this game speaks absolute volumes.
You know why? It's not because I'm a unique snowflake! It's only because I'm one of the people who is most often bringing detailed points of analysis to the table right now.
If we have more people step it up, it won't look so much like an Azrael love/hate fest up in here.
Quote from DYH »
I've already complimented Ced once or twice in this thread for his analysis, and you're right - he is doing his part. I apologize.
*nods*
Quote from DYH »
I tried to get movement on the two people I've found scummy, but 1) given my intial blow-up I've lost credability, and 2) the topic never gets away from your target. Well, except maybe when I interject to point that out.
I'm curious. What about RafK? Why is it you fail to mention him at all?
I've yet to see either you or Rafaelk pull a full-length PBPA on anyone in this thread - either selectively pulling important posts, or a comprehensive review. I'd say that has far more do with it than the question of whether you have enough credibility for anyone to believe you.
So, looking at it, we have two camps forming, giving us the possible options:
1. Lynch AI/Az
2. Lynch Zchnique
3. Go find someone else to lynch that isn't heavily in contention(like SO).
With this, the major question I think is:
Can we possibly get enough on either side of the main targets for a lynch?
I'm not convinced we are going to: we all seem to be pretty well entrenched.
As such, I think we should just table the discussion for the day and look at our other potential targets, be it SO or anyone else there is a case to be made on.
@ibug: Would you mind posting your SO PBPA now? Pretty please?
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I am not opposed to lynching a different person than Zchinque today if the case is solid. There's no law that says we can't try to identify all the scum on day one.
Prove me wrong, Az. Go back and read this game and tell me I'm wrong.
You can't.
You can sit there and call it "wrong-headed" or "condescending" all you want, but the ebb and flow of votes in this game speaks absolute volumes.
I've already complimented Ced once or twice in this thread for his analysis, and you're right - he is doing his part. I apologize.
I tried to get movement on the two people I've found scummy, but 1) given my intial blow-up I've lost credability, and 2) the topic never gets away from your target. Well, except maybe when I interject to point that out.
I'm curious. What about RafK? Why is it you fail to mention him at all?
Because Azrael was the one who caught Nakamura in a lie. DIAF
You cannot BELIEVE how much I hate people who use the word sheep to describe anything other than a four-legged animal that produces wool and disgusting milk. As a representative of the mafia community, you shouldn't be touting around condecending opinions on everyone who hasn't played for years and years. I'm pretty appalled.
Yeah, I'm pretty pissed off at this game. I'll get back into it later.
Christ on a cracker, that took forever. Of the options listed above, I think 3 is probably the best option for today. Just wanted to get the thought out there.
Actual reads and other content to come a little later tonight.
Preface: This case was written about 45 hours before this post. Some One has changed his behavior somewhat, likely in light of the vague accusations previously made against him. /preface
Note: All of this is based on 15 posts per page.
At one point Some One questions me about this post:
And yet as soon as one tries to do any scumhunting while they're being cased someone shouts Deflection. Caring about how you look in the eyes of others isn't a scummy mindset, it's a survival mindset. And townies surviving is better for the town than townies looking scummy and getting mislynched.
This was Some One's response to my post (which was directed at AI):
W0rd, a comment. He is saying you haven't defended yourself and you go off talking about scumhunting while being bandwagoned.
And then Some One reveals he has no idea what's going on. SO is under the impression that AI is casing me and I am not defending myself, only making random comments without answering questions.
How could he come to this conclusion?
Some One is not reading the thread, it's the only possible explanation. Only by not looking at previous pages could he not see what's going on.
Here he has read the previous page. But still doesn't show any sign of having made a mistake. Clearly admitting to it would show his general disinterest in the goings on of the game, and he can't let people know that most of what happens in the thread is unimportant to him.
I call him on this again:
SO's next post is about 14 hours later, and he makes no reference to my accusation (which is on the previous page), only responding to a V post on the current page.
I was down with that and AI said we didn't know what the downfall was. However, it's no known the downfall is its limited usage, so it does make sense, no?
He pops in again 4 pages later and comments on the current situation, but ignores references made toward him in the between pages by myself and AI:
I don't get it, but perhaps someone could explain why it is more logical to lynch Naka than to lynch one of the traitors. With claimed traitors, they are like time bombs along with Naka, however, we know the outcome of the traitors is certainly not a positive one, whereas whatever happens with Naka is yet to be determined.
He then picks a fight with Syrenz on that same page:
This statement irks me and defeats the purpose of what I was trying to establish. You can't say people are irrelevant because it is the very essence of their illogical nature that may cause them to be relevant.
Being that SO manages to make it back while Syrenz' response is still on the last page, he responds to it.
Three pages later he posts again, ignoring any questions or comments made toward him.
It's fine because Nak's riding the "unknown future." Being that it's claimed, what he says is generally pretty meaningless overall. The behavior correlates with the claim quite nicely because it's not necessarily wise to scumhunt if you could flip scum yourself (i.e. traitors, too). Him being on a boat with flippy floppies is about as relevant as him at Kinko's straight flipping copies AKA doing nothing.
He's trying to remain vaguely relevant without trying to hard. Or really trying much at all. He keeps his posts fairly frequent to avoid prodding, but he's simply not paying attention like a townie should.
He also jumps on the Nakamura wagon, smelling the blood in the water and hoping to get the wagon going.
Pretty much, Naka, you said that we narrowed down a list of people who could be scum...but that would imply there are better odds in the narrowed down list as opposed to the entire player base as a whole.
tl;dr version: Some One has not been reading the thread with any regularity, and only looking at the last page or two whenever he checks in. That screams scum to me. Lynch this guy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
IB has covered SO's posts pretty well. He's not been paying attention and has been making posts that serve no purpose at all quite often.
He's trying to remain vaguely relevant without trying to hard. Or really trying much at all. He keeps his posts fairly frequent to avoid prodding, but he's simply not paying attention like a townie should.
I don't get it, but perhaps someone could explain why it is more logical to lynch Naka than to lynch one of the traitors. With claimed traitors, they are like time bombs along with Naka, however, we know the outcome of the traitors is certainly not a positive one, whereas whatever happens with Naka is yet to be determined.
Vezok and Tilde are both voting for unknown/terrible reasons. I find you asking the public ("perhaps someone") as if most people believe lynching Naka is a good idea, instead of asking them directly, strange.You are addressing the public, yet criticizing a point of view the public never had. You are providing a whole explanation to everyone as to why lynching Naka is a bad idea when it's quite clear that no one, besides for Vezok and Tilde who clearly are voting for obviously bad reasons, thinks that it's a good one. Which strikes me as off.
@ Syrenz - Although it's retroactive, my answers don't change. I thought he was town, and that his behavior made sense given his claim at the time. What was the issue?
I had individual analyses on these, but I'm lazy and it crashed. Just look at these. He calls Rafaelk, Talore, dropkickdude, TFF, AI, WoD, and Some One scum in the span of what, 2 days, perhaps 3? All of them are baseless accusations, and even on back-to-back posts he calls TFF town then scum. I think he's playing opportunistic, trying to start wagons by throwing as much baseless crap as he can, and I would also guess that his claim is fake, riffing off of ~V~'s claim and taking it a step further, coupling with the convenient defense that he doesn't know what he is, for the purposes of having to claim a PR or get lynched.
Unvote; Vote Nakamura
Basically saying that Nakamura has been jumping around and trying to get wagons started and that he is scum.
3)
2 posts later, you say this:
Quote from Some One »
Talore has made a good point. Nakamura is certainly on a boat with flippy floppies.
Now, you didn't say, "Nakamura is on a boat with flippy floppies, which is in line with his claim." . What you said was clearly agreement with Talore's point ("Talore has made a good point"). And Talore's point here was that Nakamura was scum for flip-flopping. So you implied that Nakamura was scummy, despite having implied that he was not before. You were clearly not trying to say that his behavior made sense and was in-line with his claim in that post.
I don't think Naka flipping town and traitor changes much of anything really.
This... actually makes me feel a little better about AI.
So, Vote Azrael
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Oh? So what changed since you made this post (aside from the modkill of Nakamura, who you did not vote until your subsequent post)?
A vote reset makes this more of a possibility.
@Some One: Who are your top two or three picks for scum and for town?
Really? Why? Those posts seemed fairly neutral to me.
I can't argue with that vote; Azrael has not given me town vibes for the majority of this game, and I don't buy the "laying low" NK avoidance excuse.
What does my active townie mode look like? *boggle*
Earlier in the Day you complained when people referred to you as a townie because you didn't want to get NK'd. While you probably aren't going to use the same excuse now, that comment bothered me then and even now I'm still leery about the implication that you shouldn't/don't want to present yourself as town because you're afraid of the scum. As I said back then, if you're town you're going to get NK'd eventually, if not immediately then within the first few Nights.
Implying...?
Instead, we have people concentrating on the fact that I'm behaving oddly, with hidden motivations behind many of my actions. That's DV and Tilde's gut reads. Shouldn't exactly be surprising, if you know me. I'm tricksy, I'm covert, and I can be manipulative. But if you've been paying any attention at all, it should be pretty clear who I've been being tricksy for.
Yeah, I did not like this turn of phrase either.
But if the town isn't heading that direction, we need folks to come forward with other options to move us forward before the people pushing AI send us tripping into an inertia lynch.
No one is questioning the face value of that statement. What's worrisome is how you worded it.
While I'm not familiar with Zchinque's scum meta, his play here doesn't seem too different from how I've seen town-Zchinque act.
As for you, Azrael, your recent play is nothing like your scum-play in Symbiote. I don't think you stuck your neck out even once in that game. However, being Az, that is barely a point at all in your favor, as I don't doubt that you are able to switch up your playstyle as it suits you. In addition, RobRoy's game was fairly standard as far as Specialties go; the roles were straightforward for the most part and there were only a few truly surprising events (such as Seppel's teleportation and subsequent disappearance). Meanwhile, as a purported bastard game with at least one, and probably three or more, traitors, this is quite a different experience. Just because your behavior on the surface is different does not tell me much about your mindset, which I'm having trouble interpreting.
That's not surprising. You're not going to be able to read me unless you get down into the gritty details.
The fact that I'm playing differently tells you nothing of value. For that matter, the fact that I'm playing similarly often tells you nothing of value. Being reminded of someone's play in another game is not a substitute for a thorough parsing of mindset and actions.
If you parse mine, you ought to see that I've been plugging away furiously at multiple leads, that I've been shifting drastically in response to new information as it comes in, that I've been subtly eliciting new information throughout the day, that I've been leading the town without fear of exposure or overextension, and that all my stances are clearly linked and responsive to information stimuli. I've been inquisitive, curious, and aside from a lull last week, zealous in prosecuting multiple wagons and cases. I've avoided easy lynches, my avoidance has been linked to my analysis, and I've defended players who are not easy to defend - sometimes changing my mind mid-stream. Once you get past the smoke and mirrors I put up to keep the scum and my targets off-balance, my mindset here is an open book.
Am I good enough to do all that as scum? Probably to a lot of people's eyes, if they're dozing on the job. I could probably even leave a lot of analysts mystified, as to what my status was, as scum. But when I'm playing hard town to the best of my abilities, not putting up that charade, someone who's paying attention ought to be able to see the full depth and extent of my activity and see a really thorough pro-town record, through and through.
To be clear: If I'm being scum or half-hearted town, you might have a hard time reading me. But when I'm being hard town, I don't think there's much excuse for not picking up on that. And that's what I'm doing in this game. It's a distinctive style that most of you probably haven't seen before, or haven't seen it in a long while. But I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that obv-town Azrael is really, really obviously town.
People miss that on account of paranoia or lack of thoroughness a lot, but it's there for the finding.
I was told that I could paraphrase the flavor.
What did I do incorrectly?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
When did this happen?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Have fun!
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
And @ Nakamura.
Sarcasm on target for once
See, that just sounds like AI is your scum buddy. You stick your neck out for him and he backstabs you and distances. Who talks about being stabbed in the back by a fellow townie?
If you say so.
No- well, yes, a few people have, but we've got past that. It's a case of concentrating on the fact that you have unquestionably been making a lot of iffy arguments. I know you're capable of being really wrong as town though (amazing, I know), so I don't have you down as scum YET, but you have been sliding that way in my estimation in the last few page.
As for the fact that you're leading from the front and actively pursuing wagons... well, that happens to be a very strong scum style. I know it (cf. most of my scum games) and you know it (cf. many of yours; I remember the uphill climb I had to convince people you were scum in God Mafia because you did this). Done well, and it controls the game.
AI is playing loads better now the attention is off of him, but I'm not convinced of innocence yet.
Zch is most definitely scum. I was convinced before, but now that Naka's dead and flipped Town I'm sure.
Vote: Zch
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Are you referring to my vote on Z? 'Cause it was there before the reset, I'm just putting it back where it belongs.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
1)You imply that you believe Nakamura.
2) Here's what Talore says:
Basically saying that Nakamura has been jumping around and trying to get wagons started and that he is scum.
3)
2 posts later, you say this:
Now, you didn't say, "Nakamura is on a boat with flippy floppies, which is in line with his claim." . What you said was clearly agreement with Talore's point ("Talore has made a good point"). And Talore's point here was that Nakamura was scum for flip-flopping. So you implied that Nakamura was scummy, despite having implied that he was not before. You were clearly not trying to say that his behavior made sense and was in-line with his claim in that post.
This.
Also @DV: I asked you some stuff here (although you can ignore the one about Nakamura now)
Based on what?
Can you sum up your reasons for believing so?
I'm going to see if I can get a PBPA of Some One done later.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
I'm currently sitting on one about his lack of reading, pending the results of the Zchinque wagon.
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
I haven't decided my stance on Z yet, and I don't want the wagon to stop rolling before its time. Introducing another case would distract from what is currently going on.
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
My scum meta consists of only one game so far, Newb 11 from well over three years ago. Ended in a perfect scum win. And I must say I was quite pleased with myself when I on the final night managed to draw the doc protect from LookingforReality, while picking off Sjelfrost, the cop.
There really isn't much to it other than what I've said already.
First it mentions that it's not uncommon for British politicians to have served in the armed forces. Then that I have, as I mentioned, never served in any of the regular armed forces, everything was completely off records. Following it mentions that I performed secret assassinations for the MI6. Lurking in the dark, never found, never caught. After my time with the MI6, I made career in diplomacy, much thanks to my quick instincts.
Sprinkled throughout all of this is flavour of me assembling and loading my rifle, before taking it apart again.
If you need anything more than that, I will have to run it by desCoures.
As for my duck house, that was a completely legitimate business expense. I use it in my office as a paper weight.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to call someone to install my new gold toilet.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
For town:
MH
IBug
Z
For scum:
I want to take a look at several specific individuals & will address this properly in the future.
Az is Town in my eyes because he's been very active at identifying scum tells, subsequently calling people on them, and (most importantly) listening to their reactions. The biggest point against him, it seems, is that he's good enough to do that as scum and make it look real. If that's the case, why not just lynch him D1 anyways because he's too good?
When I initially voted for Zch here, I gave reasoning. The reasoning hasn't changed.
He said that AI was pushing things too far, but the "fundamentals had merit." That's a little fence-sitty to me.
My second point about his non-committal attack on Nakamura to start could be explained by his vig claim as trying to not bypass the Town, but 1-shot vig is easy to claim as Mafia and who uses a sniper rifle indoors anyways?
And now we have his reactions to pressure. Az is absolutely correct about Z's mindset tell. He's arguing that killing a townie N1 with a one-shot ability wouldn't be "that bad" because that person was acting scummy. It makes no sense. If the ability is one-shot, you need to save it until it's really useful, and that's as an extra lynch. You shouldn't waste it D1 on someone who tried to pull a gambit without thinking it through clearly, and you really shouldn't be trying to justify it by saying the target was a Townie acting scummy. Point A and point B are not able to be connected here.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Ignore all my arguments from now on, just listen to Ceds and DKD.
Let the hand-waving begin.
And again with the legalese talk-off when questioned (you might recall I had to ask for a follow-up answer in English earlier that still wasn't very direct). Let me translate: Az isn't happy you all are bothering him with your 'petty gut reads' on him while he's trying to get Zchinque lynched [using clearly superior mafia tactics].
Huh. Weren't you just questioning his "backstabbing" comment? Were you truly swayed by that first paragraph above?
Yes, yes it is. Not only do the masses willingly vote whomever Azrael decides should be voted, we now have people piling on the "Az is town" bus already day one because he said so.
You have a good argument all the way up to the point where you make an overexaggeration and giant logical fallacy. Why are you discrediting the idea that Azrael is just that good as scum to lead people around by the nose? You're clearly posting tongue-in-cheek with that last line, and I don't think RafK or I, or any of the other few dissenting voices are saying that Az needs to be lynched today, especially because he's "too good" - this is where you go off-track with your strawman. I am, and have been all game, simply advocating to proceed with caution and use your own freaking brains.
Bottom line: if Az is scum, we're screwed because he has half the town in his pocket.
Flavor and claim setup speculation is weak. "A little fence-sitty" is hardly damning. These are not good points. But more importantly, RafK debunked the meat of Azrael's argument in the post after yours.
Didn't you also say that in that very same post you linked above that what Naka was doing couldn't have come from a town mindset? I'm not sure that's meshing with getting on board with Az's case as you're doing below.
Or you could easily make the argument that he's saving the town a mislynch if he's wrong, which is what I read from it. He's said "scum or liability" I dont' know how many times now. Best-case, he feels that he shoots a scum. Worst-case, someone who was likely going to distract the town dies.
Wait... why does this sound familiar? Some kind of points for anyone who gets it.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
ced got it.
I was aiming for sarcasm. Basically the fact that Az can go ahead and self-analyze himself and point to everything he's doing as super townie does not convince me at all. I especially don't like the last couple of paragraphs which are essentially exaggerated Seppelisim's.
Also, I missed Syrenz point on Some One before. I am now also awaiting an answer.
Wow is that an overdefensive, overreaction. -All this says to me is that Az's motivation here isn't catching scum, rather, the motivation for his actions is looking really, really town-like.
Unvote; Vote: Az
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I'm not "discrediting the idea that Azrael is just that good as scum to lead people around by the nose" at all. I'm saying that it's terrible to say "Az is acting so Townie, he deserves pressure." And it's borderline offensive for you to imply that I am "in [Az's] pocket" and not using my "own freaking brain." Az made some cursory points about Z, I didn't agree at first, he made some better points, I started to agree, I reread Z, didn't like what I saw in addition to what Az was saying, posted my own thoughts, and voted. Please tell me how that adds up to me being an Az flunkie with no brain. Especially since we still disagree about AI. I've said in no uncertain terms that I still think AI is scum, in stark disagreement with Az. Care to try this again Mr Unlynchable?
These were my additions to what Az had already brought up. Not trying to be damning, but they are legitimate concerns.
I did. I said that there was no townie explanation for the lying Naka did. That doesn't rule out terribad play (which it turns out was the case). I don't think Az's case was predicated on Naka being Town, but rather the way that Z implied she was and needed to die anyways.
That's not the point here. Z was trying to convince everyone that Naka's death would be good for everyone even if she was Town, while at the same time still trying to show her as scummy. It reads as a smear on someone he knows is Town, but is trying to create plausible deniability for killing her.
And I'm the Az flunkie? This sounds like a play straight out of page 1 of Az's playbook. Care to get your own material?
On the contrary, I'd be happy to vote AI - despite what Az thinks. The wagon was dissipating anyways (because his scumbuddies wouldn't kill him), so I decided to put my vote to work elsewhere.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
And nowhere did I say Az deserved any pressure. I said you (collective) need to exercise caution and use your own freaking brains.
Moreover, you were discrediting it for the very reason I said you were - you made an hyperbolic statement of "well, why don't we just lynch him D1 of every game?" to show your contempt for the idea.
I'm done apologizing for calling a sheep a sheep. Did you, or did you not, just say "Az is town" in a previous post? The prosecution rests, your honor.
See above and below. This game's entire direction has been at Azrael's whim.
Non-sequitur and antagonistic. Duly noted.
I don't think they're worth voting someone over, but you seem to be missing the point. Why Zchinque? (hint: because Az looked at him first.)
That's not at all what I get from what Zchinque said. I don't think Zchinque ever thought Naka was more likely town than scum, hence the "scum or liability" comments.
That most certainly is the point here since you and I are reading two different things in what Zchinque said.
Yeah, it was a sarcastic jab at Azrael; I'm so glad you caught it. Now, do you understand the point I'm making or not?
Read: I decided to stay on the Azrael train even though I think AI is scum. Got it.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I'm not looking at the information that you are right now, but this sounds pretty far out there.
*Nods*
We have a problem with getting townies to do their homework in this thread. We do not have a problem with barning specific persons.
Your sheep argument was wrong-headed and a little condescending the first time around. It's still both of those things now.
We now have more people latching on to your idea of "people who agree with Az are Sheep", than people who are in agreement with me. I don't think that means that you're stronger Ta'veren: it means you have an idea that caught people's notice.
The point where I continue to agree with you is that we have a number of players who aren't yet putting in the effort to give themselves the information they need to make intelligent decisions about the game. Frankly, I'm a little angry for DKD and Ced's sakes that you're painting them with that same brush, after they've repeatedly made their own independent arguments on that score.
Neither of us are herding sheep in this game. But we do have players who aren't thinking things through, and as a result we're disorganized and splintered.
Am I sitting in my high chair, sipping tea and nibbling crumpits, turning up my nose at people's gut reads? I can own up to something like that. You ought to know as well as I do by this point that gut reads lose the town games, they don't win them.
You can't read people accurately if your analysis process is whatever passing fancy strikes you.
When I post my analysis, I don't ask people to trust me on it. I ask them to read it for themselves and form their own conclusions.
When I say that I'm really obviously townie this game, it's not because I'm asking anyone to take it on faith. I'm asking them to look for themselves.
If looking up people's posts before you decide what their alignment is, is too much to expect, then we should pack it up and concede to the scum right now, because we won't deserve a win. I'm finding myself wondering whether I really want to be a member of this town anymore.
The proportion of people who are committed to analysis in this game isn't that great to begin with, and now people who actually are doing an ok job are being painted as either demagogues or brainless sheep? Our teams sucks!
You can't.
You can sit there and call it "wrong-headed" or "condescending" all you want, but the ebb and flow of votes in this game speaks absolute volumes.
I've already complimented Ced once or twice in this thread for his analysis, and you're right - he is doing his part. I apologize.
I tried to get movement on the two people I've found scummy, but 1) given my intial blow-up I've lost credability, and 2) the topic never gets away from your target. Well, except maybe when I interject to point that out.
I'm curious. What about RafK? Why is it you fail to mention him at all?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
You know why? It's not because I'm a unique snowflake! It's only because I'm one of the people who is most often bringing detailed points of analysis to the table right now.
If we have more people step it up, it won't look so much like an Azrael love/hate fest up in here.
*nods*
I've yet to see either you or Rafaelk pull a full-length PBPA on anyone in this thread - either selectively pulling important posts, or a comprehensive review. I'd say that has far more do with it than the question of whether you have enough credibility for anyone to believe you.
Research = power.
On the other hand, I do think that if RafK had actually ever done his promised PBPA of AI then the AI wagon might not be where it is.
1. Lynch AI/Az
2. Lynch Zchnique
3. Go find someone else to lynch that isn't heavily in contention(like SO).
With this, the major question I think is:
Can we possibly get enough on either side of the main targets for a lynch?
I'm not convinced we are going to: we all seem to be pretty well entrenched.
As such, I think we should just table the discussion for the day and look at our other potential targets, be it SO or anyone else there is a case to be made on.
@ibug: Would you mind posting your SO PBPA now? Pretty please?
Because Azrael was the one who caught Nakamura in a lie. DIAF
You cannot BELIEVE how much I hate people who use the word sheep to describe anything other than a four-legged animal that produces wool and disgusting milk. As a representative of the mafia community, you shouldn't be touting around condecending opinions on everyone who hasn't played for years and years. I'm pretty appalled.
Yeah, I'm pretty pissed off at this game. I'll get back into it later.
Actual reads and other content to come a little later tonight.
Note: All of this is based on 15 posts per page.
At one point Some One questions me about this post:
This was Some One's response to my post (which was directed at AI):
I'll give you guys the rest of the interaction here:
(I'm confused, because I don't see why Some One is addressing me here.
And then Some One reveals he has no idea what's going on. SO is under the impression that AI is casing me and I am not defending myself, only making random comments without answering questions.
How could he come to this conclusion?
Some One is not reading the thread, it's the only possible explanation. Only by not looking at previous pages could he not see what's going on.
I call him on this:
and his response is this:
Here he has read the previous page. But still doesn't show any sign of having made a mistake. Clearly admitting to it would show his general disinterest in the goings on of the game, and he can't let people know that most of what happens in the thread is unimportant to him.
I call him on this again:
SO's next post is about 14 hours later, and he makes no reference to my accusation (which is on the previous page), only responding to a V post on the current page.
He pops in again 4 pages later and comments on the current situation, but ignores references made toward him in the between pages by myself and AI:
He then picks a fight with Syrenz on that same page:
Being that SO manages to make it back while Syrenz' response is still on the last page, he responds to it.
Three pages later he posts again, ignoring any questions or comments made toward him.
Another post a couple pages later to maintain presence:
He's trying to remain vaguely relevant without trying to hard. Or really trying much at all. He keeps his posts fairly frequent to avoid prodding, but he's simply not paying attention like a townie should.
He also jumps on the Nakamura wagon, smelling the blood in the water and hoping to get the wagon going.
Here he even jokes about someone else doing his work for him:
tl;dr version: Some One has not been reading the thread with any regularity, and only looking at the last page or two whenever he checks in. That screams scum to me. Lynch this guy.
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
Can we see more of his posts?
This.
To add on:
__________
I'd be fine with an SO lynch.
Vote Some One
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)