I checked back with all of the Normal Mafia games ran this year, and in every single one on Day 1, a townie was lynched.
The odds are that whoever everyone jumps on today will most likely be a townie as well.
I'm perfectly content with leaving my vote on the (currently) not-playing Iso.
If captaineddie ends up getting swapped out for Iso, then it will count at that time!
Why are you dodging? You looked up all the NORMALS in the past YEAR, that's a small fraction of the games played on this site and surely not enough to base reliable statistics off of, as I'm sure you're aware. So you are using this flawed logic as an excuse to steer clear of any incriminating vote history.
Also, there's nothing saying this game is a normal, it's got 23 people in it and there are strange new gender mechanics. This makes your research/justification even weaker. To support your stance, you would be better off researching specialities.
But yeah, this looks to me like dodging content in order to post safe things.
Seriously, I only had like 15 minutes to check things out at the time, and I figured that checking Normal games was the best use of my time since this game has been labled a "Normal" game.
If this Normal game is not actually a Normal game, then so be it.
In any case, if Mafia players account for 25% of the players, then wouldn't you think they'd get hit at least 25% of the time out of the gate? All I found that it was an odd statistic that sampled a small portion of the total games played, yes.
Does it have any bearing in this game?
Probably not.
Feel free to throw facts and statistics around however you like.
I'm done looking up past game statistics and will focus my numbers on the game at hand.
Thing is, what you looked up has a bearing on this game, along with every game. The town is going to lynch someone today and your research claims it's almost guaranteed to be a townie. You were using this logic as a reason to continue voting for people outside the game and not focus on actual in-game stuff. My argument was that your statistic samples are flawed, giving you poor reasoning for not actually contributing. I don't have a problem with you looking at old games, I generally encourage it. However, when you are using flawed statistics to support scummy behavior, I'm going to call you on it.
I checked back with all of the Normal Mafia games ran this year, and in every single one on Day 1, a townie was lynched.
The odds are that whoever everyone jumps on today will most likely be a townie as well.
Interesting! I know why it'd be 75/25 or so in favor of a townie getting lynched, but why do you think it's 100%? That's a lot.
Quote from Kankennon »
I'm perfectly content with leaving my vote on the (currently) not-playing Iso.
I don't think "because townies usually get lynched I'm not gonna vote for anyone" is very reasonable. Townies getting lynched day one lets you check the wagon for the weakest justifications, and helps you scumhunt. It's virtually always protown to lynch SOMEBODY. I think I remember you saying you're kinda new at Mafia, is that true?
Very well, I'll stop with the jokey votes then if it's time to really start playing.
Unvote
Yes, this is my first official Mafia game so feel free to label me with whatever sort of noob Post-It notes you desire. Be sure not to consider me using humor or sarcasm as a tell in either direction, because that's how I always am 24/7. (Feel free to check back in any of my 10,000+ posts.)
It's way too early for me to get a read on anyone yet, and no, I'm not going to jump off a bridge just because everyone else is doing it.
One of my all-time pet peeves is people who commit to playing a game and then never show up to play it.
With that said, I'll place my official vote on whoever shows up LAST, between Seppel and captaineddie.
If by any chance, I see that someone else strikes me as a better candidate before either one of them posts, then by all means, I'll reserve my option to change my mind at that time.
Once again this "I'll vote for whoever checks in last" is the kind of content dodging that get's my attention. It acts as an excuse for legitimate vote reasoning, it acts as an excuse to not vote until one of them shows up last and it acts as an excuse to provide much content
Also, there's a contradiction in this post. Kank agrees that it's time for the jokey votes to be finished with, but I take his "vote for the last guy in" to be jokey. Whether it's jokey or not, it's a problem with me, but if it was intended as a joke, it's more of a problem because of his statement previously in the post.
Suit yourself. That was more along the lines of me stating that I didn't have a better candidate to pick yet and to incentivize people to actually play the game.
How is voting people outside the game and promising to vote the last person who checks in any incentive to play the game? I see you saying here that you did what you did to help the game in some way. How do you figure?
Lastly, Kank, to finish this post, you claim that you would change your vote if someone strikes you as a better candidate. What things are you looking for that would point more towards someone being scum? What are you watching out for?
Other than weeding out the non-players right now, I was looking for behavior that seemed odd to me.
My own behavior, no matter what, will seem odd to some people and logical to others.
If I'm too late to the wagon on a scum player, then I'll appear scummy.
If I'm too early or too late to a townie lynching, then I'll also appear scummy.
I'm sure me just stating these things makes me appear scummy as well, since townies don't ever say anything of the sort ever.
What it all comes down to is that day one appears to just be a random lynching of whoever that usually ends up flipping town.
I'd rather that not be me.
What I asked was what are you looking for in everyone else that you think would make them scummy? I'm not asking you to justify or rationalize your defeatism, just what you plan on doing, other than focusing on OOG stuff, to contribute to this game?
This is the only legit reason for voting IB, but looking at IB's tone and the rest of his play this game, I'm inclined to think he's town that's got himself into hot water as usual.
Vote Kankennon
Kank is a noob, to be sure, but he's the more experienced level of noob. He's been around the site for a while, has played in clan games before I believe and has got the gist of mafia. I believe he's on of those players that really wanted to be prepared for what they were getting into when they sign up for mafia. That being said, I'm keeping the noob excuse in my mind, but I'm not giving it as much thought as I would others. Moving on...
Kank's track record so far this game has consisted of two things: voting for people outside the game and digging into old game information. In other words, he's playing for appearances. Given the fact that he's been trying to justify his non-important votes, I'm inclined to believe it's an attempt to seem active while keeping the heat off of him. Secondly, while digging up old game information may seem townie and productive, the hard facts are that any player, town or scum, has access to those old games and can post those things. Scum tend to like to do it more, because it allows them to keep posting things that appear to be content.
I believe that Kank is smart enough to know that he's not going to be able to lurk through this game. Because he knows this, he's trying to make frequent posts yet still make them safe posts things he's not going to step on toes with.
I would like to hear from Kank about these matters.
I don't plan on lurking in any game ever. Since I don't have past games of my own to rely upon, I have to make use of the past games of others, and I found it numerically odd that so far every day one lynch in the 23/24 player Normal games this year have hit a townie.
I'll stop with the odds from other games and focus on the odds for this one.
We have 23 players.
12 are male characters, 11 are female.
Mafia history would tell us that 25% of these players are scum, and the rest are townsfolk.
If so, that would mean that 6 players are likely to be scum or evil (Gotham had 5 scum and a serial killer).
It would make sense for Arcadic to split the scum/SK into equal halves between the genders, even though in reality, they'd pretty much all be male, but this is a game based on an animated television series and anything goes in those.
So, lets say that there are 3 baddies in the men and 3 baddies in the women.
Right now the males outnumber the females, and if they wanted to, they could team up and wipe out all of the females and practically assure themselves of hitting half of the baddies in the process.
I doubt that Arcadic planned the game to operate like that, so let's not okay? (I'm playing a female after all.)
So the barns are on IB, Maokun, and myself is that right?
I'm not seeing IB behave any differently than the other games I watched him get lynched early in and flip town.
Maokun? No idea. I'm not seeing the guilt you've lain upon this person.
If y'all want me dead instead, then so be it. I'd be bummed, but I'd get over it. It would be a shame though, because I'd actually play the game as opposed to sit around and lurk.
I'm not accusing you of lurking, I'm saying you are smart enough to know not to lurk. My argument was that because you are smart enough not to lurk, it's very possible that you would post for appearances. In other words, you would post rather often, but much of your content would be fluff or bear little on this game.
Be careful about gaming the mod. It's not scummy persay, but it's dangerous. Guessing at that mod's setup and then planning around what you guessed at can lead to scum misleading you and possibly others based on what you thought was sure thing information.
Lastly, what do you think /barn means? The last bit of your post makes me think that you think a /barn is an indicator of suspicion.
I couldn't exactly edit my post to clean up the messy quotes now could I?
I'm cool with LampDwellr's suspicions about me, but something about GrickyTimmick's methodology is throwing me off.
I didn't spot it in the posts he addressed me directly, but actually in Post #128 where he responded to Tom.
An educational diatribe on Mafia game subtypes?
Normal to Normal = Apples to Ikea?
This is more helpful than me pulling out some silly data on past Normal games simply because I wanted to feel like I was doing *something* constructive?
Oh, and if you want to have an easier time distinguishing between Kahedron and myself, just use my emoticon: then.
Yeah, I'd like to learn a little more about GrickyTimmick and since this seems like a good way to do it:
Unvote Vote GrickyTimmick
First, I never asked you to edit your post and I certainly wasn't calling you scum for bad post formatting, I was just complaining a bit. Why so jumpy about that issue?
Second, what's wrong with my "educational diatribe" about the subtypes? More specifically, how does that make me scummy?
Third, comparing any games with each other is going to result in large differences. This game has gender mechanics, something I've personally never seen before in a game. Add in the multitude of different roles that can and do exist in various games and the varying amount of players in those games, and each one, even though they are in the same catagory, are completely different. Some of those differences can account for some of the early game play.
Also, I just did a check and there are only 4 completed Normal mafia games in the year of 2012. Gotham Underground, Cyberpunk, Starcraft and Flame Warriors. If that's all you are basing your statistics off of, it further proves the unreliability of those statistics.
Once again, my problem with you regarding your statistics isn't the statistics themselves, it's that you were using those stats to justify not lynching anyone and voting for Iso or whoever checked in last. You were resigning yourself to no-content land and giving a reason why you should be allowed to get away with it. What would be more helpful than your old statistics would be if you either made the stat's more comprehensive or if you actually played the game and did some behaviorial analysis or something.
Finally, nice retaliation vote there. Any specific reason for it, other than the fact that I voted you first?
- In Grickytimmick's post 120 I liked the way he defended InfectiousBaloth. Comparable to EtR (but the other way around), I think scum wouldn't white knight someone in this way. He's basically calling 'bull****' on everyone who voted IB based on the barn, which takes a certain bravado not often seen in scum. Though, now I think of it, I see it would have some advatages for Gricky to protect him as scum, whether IB is his buddy or town. However, what I didn't like in the same post, was his attack on Kank based on that he only looked up Normals from the past year. It seemed overdone, and coupled with his doubtful claim in post 128 that he had only seen that this was a Normal just now, I think it's very shady.
My attack on Kank isn't about his Normal information. That was part of my supportive reasoning, but the full reason that I'm voting him is he's posting a lot of non-content. He posts a lot, but it's a lot of fluff. I see Kank as posturing for the town with these votes for outside players and the statistical justification he uses for doing so. Me pointing out that his evidence was flawed was tantamount to me tearing down the statistical wall that Kank had build as a defense for his actions.
@PikachuGundum: I'm calling you PG from now on.
Also, you don't like my posts for 'noob smashing'. What do you expect when I'm one of the only experienced people in this game? What do you expect when 3/4's of the players in this game are noobs? Eventually, at some point, 'noob smashing' is going to take place. If there were only one or two noobs and I was part of a group of people who had ganged up on those players, then your noob-smashing call would be totally justified. Not here though. Furthermore, I believe that I was the only person getting onto Kank at the time. There was no gang-up, just my own personal pressure and analysis of what I saw before me. Calling my actions 'noob smashing' is taking an extremist view of my actions.
As for the condescending you claim to see, there's really nothing I can do about that. I found the post hilarious because I was already thinking of a ridiculous comparison I could make, which ended up being the apples and Ikea's thing. Still, I can't change that you view it condescendingly. What I can ask though is how does that make me scum? What's your thought process here?
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Who was that masked man anyway?
MTGSalvation: Now with more Drama than Season 5 of Supernatural!
Again... saw A Bear viewing this thread and again... no post...
Vote: A Bear for massive lurking.
maybe if you stopped posting massive walls of text i'd be able to post
can't you just link to the post you want or quote the part you're replying to instead of the entire freakin essay come on
one thing i've gathered is that people seem to be copying others' opinions and not making their own. stop that. it's a bad habit.
even if your opinion is similar you should write it out because you may realize something that you didn't before while typing
for example while writing this i decided that wessel is my greenest townread because his longpost was basically a cliffnotes of this game so far so i am in debt to him and also he hasn't tried to twist anything with his observations like other people are doing (everyone)
I have only multi-quoted on this page, so nice deflection there... And I only quoted all those posts at WoD's insistence. Also, don't you find it more bothersome that someone links to a post than just quoting the post?
And to sum things up, every other time I'm looking at this thread, I see you lurking... So content?
Then again, you could tl;dr the quotes... That or read faster...
I'm reading this attack onto A bear as a scummy attack on a player who is fairly obvtown at this point, regardless of his level of posting. This makes me not like PG at all.
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Who was that masked man anyway?
MTGSalvation: Now with more Drama than Season 5 of Supernatural!
In other news, Tom, as per usual, is floundering. I don't see the solid scum hunting skills that Wessel was talking about, and frankly, Tom looks like the same sketchy player that got lynched in the two games of experience I have with her*. Vote: Tom.
Why would you make a vote on me for acting the same way I did in the two games I had with you? In both of those games I was town.
It seems like you are aware of how easily I got killed those two games and are trying to make that happen again.
Again... saw A Bear viewing this thread and again... no post...
Vote: A Bear for massive lurking.
maybe if you stopped posting massive walls of text i'd be able to post
can't you just link to the post you want or quote the part you're replying to instead of the entire freakin essay come on
one thing i've gathered is that people seem to be copying others' opinions and not making their own. stop that. it's a bad habit.
even if your opinion is similar you should write it out because you may realize something that you didn't before while typing
for example while writing this i decided that wessel is my greenest townread because his longpost was basically a cliffnotes of this game so far so i am in debt to him and also he hasn't tried to twist anything with his observations like other people are doing (everyone)
I have only multi-quoted on this page, so nice deflection there... And I only quoted all those posts at WoD's insistence. Also, don't you find it more bothersome that someone links to a post than just quoting the post?
And to sum things up, every other time I'm looking at this thread, I see you lurking... So content?
Then again, you could tl;dr the quotes... That or read faster...
I'm reading this attack onto A bear as a scummy attack on a player who is fairly obvtown at this point, regardless of his level of posting. This makes me not like PG at all.
Why is AB (what I'm calling A Bear) "fairly obvtown"?
I have been getting mixed reads from PG and GT. Actually, they are mostly against PG. I don't like PG (and Kank for that matter) preempitvely using the noob excuse so often. Especially for PG, hasn't he played before (even if elsewhere), so doesn't noob not work so much? And I did not like this.
And maybe I will try that wild accusations thing the next time (or maybe it should be if ever) I play with Iso.
BTW, how do you properly multi-quote without having to go page by page and hitting quote on each post that I want to quote, then copying and pasting the quote? I know there's a mult-quote button, but I could never figure out how to use it. >.<
Again... saw A Bear viewing this thread and again... no post...
Vote: A Bear for massive lurking.
maybe if you stopped posting massive walls of text i'd be able to post
can't you just link to the post you want or quote the part you're replying to instead of the entire freakin essay come on
one thing i've gathered is that people seem to be copying others' opinions and not making their own. stop that. it's a bad habit.
even if your opinion is similar you should write it out because you may realize something that you didn't before while typing
for example while writing this i decided that wessel is my greenest townread because his longpost was basically a cliffnotes of this game so far so i am in debt to him and also he hasn't tried to twist anything with his observations like other people are doing (everyone)
I have only multi-quoted on this page, so nice deflection there... And I only quoted all those posts at WoD's insistence. Also, don't you find it more bothersome that someone links to a post than just quoting the post?
And to sum things up, every other time I'm looking at this thread, I see you lurking... So content?
Then again, you could tl;dr the quotes... That or read faster...
Deflection..using the thing you said yourself? And why are you going after her for lurking when there are far worse lurkers?
I also have to agree with Gricky on much of PG's attack on him, namely the "noob-smashing".
Also, you don't like my posts for 'noob smashing'. What do you expect when I'm one of the only experienced people in this game? What do you expect when 3/4's of the players in this game are noobs? Eventually, at some point, 'noob smashing' is going to take place. If there were only one or two noobs and I was part of a group of people who had ganged up on those players, then your noob-smashing call would be totally justified. Not here though. Furthermore, I believe that I was the only person getting onto Kank at the time. There was no gang-up, just my own personal pressure and analysis of what I saw before me. Calling my actions 'noob smashing' is taking an extremist view of my actions.
As for the condescending you claim to see, there's really nothing I can do about that. I found the post hilarious because I was already thinking of a ridiculous comparison I could make, which ended up being the apples and Ikea's thing. Still, I can't change that you view it condescendingly. What I can ask though is how does that make me scum? What's your thought process here?
In fact, before this next post I would have had GT leaning town.
Again... saw A Bear viewing this thread and again... no post...
Vote: A Bear for massive lurking.
maybe if you stopped posting massive walls of text i'd be able to post
can't you just link to the post you want or quote the part you're replying to instead of the entire freakin essay come on
one thing i've gathered is that people seem to be copying others' opinions and not making their own. stop that. it's a bad habit.
even if your opinion is similar you should write it out because you may realize something that you didn't before while typing
for example while writing this i decided that wessel is my greenest townread because his longpost was basically a cliffnotes of this game so far so i am in debt to him and also he hasn't tried to twist anything with his observations like other people are doing (everyone)
I have only multi-quoted on this page, so nice deflection there... And I only quoted all those posts at WoD's insistence. Also, don't you find it more bothersome that someone links to a post than just quoting the post?
And to sum things up, every other time I'm looking at this thread, I see you lurking... So content?
Then again, you could tl;dr the quotes... That or read faster...
I'm reading this attack onto A bear as a scummy attack on a player who is fairly obvtown at this point, regardless of his level of posting. This makes me not like PG at all.
Obvtown? When she had had litterally three posts at that point, one of which was RVS and one of which was terminology clarification? Explain please.
--------------------------------------------------
@Kank: I don't like what you said earlier about taking your posts with a grain of salt. I'm not saying it's scummy, but it's a non-productive place to be. Also, why are you saying things like "I'm a jokester and it will get me lynched until people catch on"?
EWP: Tom beat me to the "obvtown" thing, and makes a very good point against Stardust.
Again... saw A Bear viewing this thread and again... no post...
Vote: A Bear for massive lurking.
maybe if you stopped posting massive walls of text i'd be able to post
can't you just link to the post you want or quote the part you're replying to instead of the entire freakin essay come on
one thing i've gathered is that people seem to be copying others' opinions and not making their own. stop that. it's a bad habit.
even if your opinion is similar you should write it out because you may realize something that you didn't before while typing
for example while writing this i decided that wessel is my greenest townread because his longpost was basically a cliffnotes of this game so far so i am in debt to him and also he hasn't tried to twist anything with his observations like other people are doing (everyone)
I have only multi-quoted on this page, so nice deflection there... And I only quoted all those posts at WoD's insistence. Also, don't you find it more bothersome that someone links to a post than just quoting the post?
And to sum things up, every other time I'm looking at this thread, I see you lurking... So content?
Then again, you could tl;dr the quotes... That or read faster...
have you ever heard of something called the "general you"
also i read really really fast it's just that the font + background combo makes it really hard for me to read large amounts of text on this forum
it's not as bad as the orange/white text on a brown background that the fantasy strike forum has though.
also i dont have the time to post every time im in the thread. :U
also also!!!
i like how you managed to derail discussion by making it entirely about me!
and yourself too of course!
what was it about the previous conversational topics that you didn't like
EBWOP: font + background combo is referring to the quotes, the actual posts are ok although the text size is too big and if i try to make it smaller it breaks how my browser renders the forum layout
Again... saw A Bear viewing this thread and again... no post...
Vote: A Bear for massive lurking.
maybe if you stopped posting massive walls of text i'd be able to post
can't you just link to the post you want or quote the part you're replying to instead of the entire freakin essay come on
one thing i've gathered is that people seem to be copying others' opinions and not making their own. stop that. it's a bad habit.
even if your opinion is similar you should write it out because you may realize something that you didn't before while typing
for example while writing this i decided that wessel is my greenest townread because his longpost was basically a cliffnotes of this game so far so i am in debt to him and also he hasn't tried to twist anything with his observations like other people are doing (everyone)
First, AB is a noob. His tells are going to be much more obvious than an experienced players. He proves it here over the frustration about walls-o-text. It's not an alignment tell at all, just helps us understand that he's completely new.
Now that it's firmly established that he's new, take a look at the bolded statements. A newer player calling out /barning as a bad habit strikes me as townie because he's preaching something that's generally a well known fact. He goes on to explain why voicing your opinion, even if it's similar to someone else's, is better play. Even though he's spouting well known things to experience mafia players, newer players may not know about these things. So not only is he showing a townie mindset by learning these things early, where scum would rather take advantage of these things, he's also preaching it, which is an incredibly protown move for a player who doesn't know any better.
Top it off with his last section, the second bolded part. He shows mass-paranoia, which is typical of a newer town player. Scum don't show paranoia because they know who they can trust, they know their partners. Noob townies aren't very willing to trust anyone and they let that be known.
At face value, I'm thinking AB is easily town. Unless he's lying about his mafia experience, I'm doubtful that will change.
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Who was that masked man anyway?
MTGSalvation: Now with more Drama than Season 5 of Supernatural!
Yes... you are bad at quoting... Perhaps you should proofread your posts more carefully since there was also confusion on what you meant with the slip that you knew more about the set up than you did.
I am not ever going to apologize for someone quoting a quarter of a sentence out of context and then trying to make something out of it. The person you're looking for on this "causing confusion" charge is not me.
Also, this doesn't make AB any more townie than I've already explained, but I think you could classify PG's initial attack onto AB as "noob-bashing". It's also attacking low-hanging fruit, going after lurkers right off the bat. But with the deflection attack and the "content?" attack, the whole attack reads very scummy.
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Who was that masked man anyway?
MTGSalvation: Now with more Drama than Season 5 of Supernatural!
So the barns are on IB, Maokun, and myself is that right?
I'm not seeing IB behave any differently than the other games I watched him get lynched early in and flip town.
Maokun? No idea. I'm not seeing the guilt you've lain upon this person.
This has me a little confused. Can you please clarify it?
On my first read of it, I thought you were discussing the barn post that IB made and the people who jumped on him for doing so... but the votes were from EtR, Tom and then GrickyTimmick barns the same post IB does while explaining why IB's barn wasn't scummy
how did you get you and maokun unless i am vastly misunderstanding this
PG is right.
I was merely commenting about the people who were getting the barns on them other than myself at the time, and I couldn't see any good justification for barns on either of them.
A lot has happened since then.
I'd REALLY like the non-players to start playing.
I'm more annoyed by players not playing than I am by LampDwellr and GrickyTimmick deciding that I'm a baddie.
Again... saw A Bear viewing this thread and again... no post...
Vote: A Bear for massive lurking.
maybe if you stopped posting massive walls of text i'd be able to post
can't you just link to the post you want or quote the part you're replying to instead of the entire freakin essay come on
one thing i've gathered is that people seem to be copying others' opinions and not making their own. stop that. it's a bad habit.
even if your opinion is similar you should write it out because you may realize something that you didn't before while typing
for example while writing this i decided that wessel is my greenest townread because his longpost was basically a cliffnotes of this game so far so i am in debt to him and also he hasn't tried to twist anything with his observations like other people are doing (everyone)
Har. Draw this out to its logical conclusion: the people playing the most town are the people who do nothing to advance the plot. Ergo, nobody should advance the plot.
Again... saw A Bear viewing this thread and again... no post...
Vote: A Bear for massive lurking.
maybe if you stopped posting massive walls of text i'd be able to post
can't you just link to the post you want or quote the part you're replying to instead of the entire freakin essay come on
one thing i've gathered is that people seem to be copying others' opinions and not making their own. stop that. it's a bad habit.
even if your opinion is similar you should write it out because you may realize something that you didn't before while typing
for example while writing this i decided that wessel is my greenest townread because his longpost was basically a cliffnotes of this game so far so i am in debt to him and also he hasn't tried to twist anything with his observations like other people are doing (everyone)
First, AB is a noob. His tells are going to be much more obvious than an experienced players. He proves it here over the frustration about walls-o-text. It's not an alignment tell at all, just helps us understand that he's completely new.
Now that it's firmly established that he's new, take a look at the bolded statements. A newer player calling out /barning as a bad habit strikes me as townie because he's preaching something that's generally a well known fact. He goes on to explain why voicing your opinion, even if it's similar to someone else's, is better play. Even though he's spouting well known things to experience mafia players, newer players may not know about these things. So not only is he showing a townie mindset by learning these things early, where scum would rather take advantage of these things, he's also preaching it, which is an incredibly protown move for a player who doesn't know any better.
Top it off with his last section, the second bolded part. He shows mass-paranoia, which is typical of a newer town player. Scum don't show paranoia because they know who they can trust, they know their partners. Noob townies aren't very willing to trust anyone and they let that be known.
At face value, I'm thinking AB is easily town. Unless he's lying about his mafia experience, I'm doubtful that will change.
1) I'm a girl
2) this is my second game here, but
3) in that game i said i'd been playing mafia for 5 years
also just call me Bear
you can call me 2/2 too, that's just as well
Again... saw A Bear viewing this thread and again... no post...
Vote: A Bear for massive lurking.
maybe if you stopped posting massive walls of text i'd be able to post
can't you just link to the post you want or quote the part you're replying to instead of the entire freakin essay come on
one thing i've gathered is that people seem to be copying others' opinions and not making their own. stop that. it's a bad habit.
even if your opinion is similar you should write it out because you may realize something that you didn't before while typing
for example while writing this i decided that wessel is my greenest townread because his longpost was basically a cliffnotes of this game so far so i am in debt to him and also he hasn't tried to twist anything with his observations like other people are doing (everyone)
First, AB is a noob. His tells are going to be much more obvious than an experienced players. He proves it here over the frustration about walls-o-text. It's not an alignment tell at all, just helps us understand that he's completely new.
Now that it's firmly established that he's new, take a look at the bolded statements. A newer player calling out /barning as a bad habit strikes me as townie because he's preaching something that's generally a well known fact. He goes on to explain why voicing your opinion, even if it's similar to someone else's, is better play. Even though he's spouting well known things to experience mafia players, newer players may not know about these things. So not only is he showing a townie mindset by learning these things early, where scum would rather take advantage of these things, he's also preaching it, which is an incredibly protown move for a player who doesn't know any better.
Top it off with his last section, the second bolded part. He shows mass-paranoia, which is typical of a newer town player. Scum don't show paranoia because they know who they can trust, they know their partners. Noob townies aren't very willing to trust anyone and they let that be known.
At face value, I'm thinking AB is easily town. Unless he's lying about his mafia experience, I'm doubtful that will change.
1) I'm a girl
2) this is my second game here, but
3) in that game i said i'd been playing mafia for 5 years
also just call me Bear
you can call me 2/2 too, that's just as well
1. hawt
2. ok but...
3. Why did you lie? What am I supposed to think about that?
lol at 2/2. hawt was for the lulz btw. I have no clue what you look like obv.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Who was that masked man anyway?
MTGSalvation: Now with more Drama than Season 5 of Supernatural!
Why would you make a vote on me for acting the same way I did in the two games I had with you? In both of those games I was town.
It seems like you are aware of how easily I got killed those two games and are trying to make that happen again.
Self-meta is the worst kind of meta. It's not a good defense.
Please elaborate. What do you mean?
Does it make sense to you for person A to vote for person B based on the fact that person B's attitude is the same as it was in other games... in which person B was town?
i didn't lie
you're thinking of some other bear
there is no post i made that says i am new to mafia :U
@lampdwellr: no, you're supposed to attack people on what they actually said, not what they didn't say, this isn't politics (unless there is a very specific omitted thing you want to know and then you ask them about it before attacking them on it)
Eron why the vote? Despite having a quote that is ultimately a barn to move the game on a bit your vote is nude. Of the pair why did you go for I.Baloth who merely agreed with the sentiment as opposed to Wessel who suggested it.
I can answer this, but I won't, since you addressed it to Eron.
Why post this? Seems like yet another post that is completely pointless and just serves the purpose to make us think you are town.
Also, ***, it seems you missed my above question. Please answer it, and then answer Kahedron's question (Eron already answered it, and I want to see what you have to say, specifically, in answer to Kahedron's question).
Methinks Maokun is a mafia noob (at least on this forum) and doesn't know how mafia here is suppose to work. IRL and on IRC... retaliatory voting happens all the time.... cuz I see it all the time. Then again... I only play with bored otakus and a bot script... and then there's the occasional game of Wolf with ppl at the LGS... So what do I know?
@Stardust: RVS voting is RVS voting... Didn't feel a response was required...
I've read a lot of guides and some other Mafia threads, but i have yet to see one where they explain all the acronyms.
Anyway, I decided not to go with my plan of voting retaliative after being pointed that's considered scummy behavior around here. Since apparently abstaining from vote may also seem scummy, I'll point my finger to the first name I see after scrolling up once.
*sigh* I wonder if it's more fun to host a game and watch it unfold or actually play in a game... I want to attempt to host a game, but min requirement is to actually play a few games first... Though looking at the hosting list... it'll be a while before I can subject this forum to my anime based mafia games. I saw a few that piqued my interest like NGE mafia, Arcadic's recently ended Suzumiya Haruhi mafia and Magical Girl mafia.
Anyway, with so many people (half of which are absent), it might be a while before we actually get a train going... Or if the noobs are too noobeh, then it won't be too long before we get this train wreck going...
This is quite the enjoyable fluff post. It seems like you're busy if you look at post counts (which for some reason Star(?) is keeping track of) but it's just actually padding to the actual count.
Not being able to work with anything here yet, I decided to start checking past games for patterns of behavior, and have found that infectiousbaloth has a habit of getting aggressive early, which often leads to a quick barnwagon that gets him lynched and then he ends up flipping town. (See Clan Mafia game for a recent example of this.)
I can't find a game where he's been scum before actually.
So, I'll pose a question to him then:
infectiousbaloth: Is this business as usual for you here, or are you actually scum this time around and merely using the same pattern of behavior
1. What games did you look at?
2. If IB is scum, do you actually expect an answer to that question? Or if you were to receive one, do you believe that it would be accurate?
Oh, well if you thought it was still RVS for everyone, then it makes more sense. I thought it was clear RVS was ending, but aparently that sentiment was not shared by everyone, you included.
I wouldn't really call that retaliating. Do you think you're retaliating?
------------
IB's /barn didn't feel off to me. I don't believe barning in of itself is a scummy action, as it is simply a quick way of stating that you mirror someone's sentiments.
This feels like coaching. You set up an answer, then give the question. At this point she could reply with "Well, I don't feel that way, but everyone is going to think I am." Why not just ask the question if you want a legitimate answer?
Eron why the vote? Despite having a quote that is ultimately a barn to move the game on a bit your vote is nude. Of the pair why did you go for I.Baloth who merely agreed with the sentiment as opposed to Wessel who suggested it.
I can answer this, but I won't, since you addressed it to Eron.
WoD, since I've answered why I voted, I'm interested in your answer now.
=
And I see nothing wrong with IB's barn. Votes on him for this reason are either scummy advantageous votes or votes of inexperience. I'm leaning inexperience at this point, for obvious reasons.
So you're cool with him barning a post requesting content, posting no content, and then overreacting to the votes against him?
Secondly, you aren't accounting for any of his other posts in the game. You are pointing at the barn and saying "look at this guy trying to post content like he's actually playing!" when he is, in fact, actually playing and posting things aside from the barn. You're attack onto IB for nothing more than the barn is defeated by the fact that IB is obviously posting more than you are accounting for.
So you believe that a scum can't be caught of one post? A post that you just can't understand the mindset behind? A post that accomplishes exactly what the post that was barned was urging not to do?
Lastly, if you have a problem with that barn and with barns in normal, then you are going to have a problem with me, with this game, with other players in the game and with the game in general. Barning, while it can sometimes be used to catch scum, is commonplace in mafia and is used by both town and scum equally. To catch a scum off of a barn is very situational, it depends on who's barning, how they are barning, who they are barning and what it is they are barning, among other things I'm sure. I know I barn a lot and I know plenty of other players who barn. It's a part of the game
Whoever said they have problems with barns in general? That barn, yes. Barns in general, no.
At the end of all this I have GT as leaning scum and partnering with IB. More to come on this later though.
To take it a step further, IB called me out in his "strong reasoning" post. No comments as to anything else occurring, no read as to why I voted and nothing else, just a snappy post to rebuke mine. Coming shortly after he barned a post that called for more reads and less jokes seems scummy.
It is definitely worded awkwardly, and the "this" would have helped.
I read it as "coming shortly after, he barned..."
No worries. I'm terrible with wording, punctuation and vocabulary in general, so my apologies for being a grump.
Quote from GT »
I'm accounting for slack on Kank. Maybe not enough, but I'd like to see his responses. What I'm not going to do is not pressure half the town because of the possible noobieness of my targets. That gets us nowhere. So, because of the level of saturation of noobs in the game, I'm very close to throwing the noob card straight out the window.
This I can get behind. I'm not totally experienced, but I think I have about 10 games at this point, counting my replaces in's. Unless something is totally out of left field (i.e., the retaliation thing from the beginning of the game) then I think we need to call it out. And even if it is out of left field it's worth calling out.
@Waiting for trains: I have no idea what I'm doing. Therefore, wait for train?
@Kank: I told you I should have done a basic first!
Like this for example. Why are you just waiting for a train as opposed to creating one on someone that you suspect?
Quote from pikachugundam »
@Wessel: Lessee... for lack of contribution, but me seeing her at the bottom of the thread a whole bunch of times when I'm reading the thread and then not posting, I think that A Bear is a massive lurker, which may or may not be a scum tell because I think this is her first game too.
Setting up your soon to come vote?
Quote from pikachugundam »
I think IB is flailing town.
I'm reading Kank, Maokun and ferro_man as flailing noob.
I'm reading Tom and EtR as town for posting content.
I'm leaning GrickyTimmick and LampDwellr as scum on gut feeling. So don't ask for posts indicating such because it's just the feel I get from reading what they've posted thus far (so it's all their posts).
It's also quite a large game, so anyone that I haven't mentioned I've got a null read on.
Why do you have IB, Kank, Maokun, and f_m as flailing anything?
Again... saw A Bear viewing this thread and again... no post...
Vote: A Bear for massive lurking.
Whoomp there it is. Do not like. Bear has posted more content than Seppel and the captain...Why the vote for her?
As an aside - This is the reason that I set myself to invisible. I read from my phone, my work laptop, at home, running through airports, whatever. It's always easy to read. You don't always have time to make a post though. Getting voted for trying to keep up with a game while not actually having time to post is dumb. I'm not saying that is what Bear is doing, but that's from my perspective.
Again... saw A Bear viewing this thread and again... no post...
Vote: A Bear for massive lurking.
maybe if you stopped posting massive walls of text i'd be able to post
can't you just link to the post you want or quote the part you're replying to instead of the entire freakin essay come on
one thing i've gathered is that people seem to be copying others' opinions and not making their own. stop that. it's a bad habit.
even if your opinion is similar you should write it out because you may realize something that you didn't before while typing
for example while writing this i decided that wessel is my greenest townread because his longpost was basically a cliffnotes of this game so far so i am in debt to him and also he hasn't tried to twist anything with his observations like other people are doing (everyone)
I have only multi-quoted on this page, so nice deflection there... And I only quoted all those posts at WoD's insistence. Also, don't you find it more bothersome that someone links to a post than just quoting the post?
And to sum things up, every other time I'm looking at this thread, I see you lurking... So content?
Then again, you could tl;dr the quotes... That or read faster...
I'm reading this attack onto A bear as a scummy attack on a player who is fairly obvtown at this point, regardless of his level of posting. This makes me not like PG at all.
I have to agree with Gricky here. In fact, this post changed my opinion of GT.
Here is my thoughts on GT at the moment:
Hated his defense of IB.
Liked some of his back and forth with other players.
Liked his defense of Bear here.
This leads me to have GT leaning town. This doesn't change my opinion of IB at the moment though. I do believe based on my read of IB being scum and GT defending him AND Bear that further cements my town read on GT.
Again... saw A Bear viewing this thread and again... no post...
Vote: A Bear for massive lurking.
maybe if you stopped posting massive walls of text i'd be able to post
can't you just link to the post you want or quote the part you're replying to instead of the entire freakin essay come on
one thing i've gathered is that people seem to be copying others' opinions and not making their own. stop that. it's a bad habit.
even if your opinion is similar you should write it out because you may realize something that you didn't before while typing
for example while writing this i decided that wessel is my greenest townread because his longpost was basically a cliffnotes of this game so far so i am in debt to him and also he hasn't tried to twist anything with his observations like other people are doing (everyone)
First, AB is a noob. His tells are going to be much more obvious than an experienced players. He proves it here over the frustration about walls-o-text. It's not an alignment tell at all, just helps us understand that he's completely new.
Now that it's firmly established that he's new, take a look at the bolded statements. A newer player calling out /barning as a bad habit strikes me as townie because he's preaching something that's generally a well known fact. He goes on to explain why voicing your opinion, even if it's similar to someone else's, is better play. Even though he's spouting well known things to experience mafia players, newer players may not know about these things. So not only is he showing a townie mindset by learning these things early, where scum would rather take advantage of these things, he's also preaching it, which is an incredibly protown move for a player who doesn't know any better.
Top it off with his last section, the second bolded part. He shows mass-paranoia, which is typical of a newer town player. Scum don't show paranoia because they know who they can trust, they know their partners. Noob townies aren't very willing to trust anyone and they let that be known.
At face value, I'm thinking AB is easily town. Unless he's lying about his mafia experience, I'm doubtful that will change.
1) I'm a girl
2) this is my second game here, but
3) in that game i said i'd been playing mafia for 5 years
also just call me Bear
you can call me 2/2 too, that's just as well
Wait a minute... GT - where did you get that Bear was new?
A Bear - I thought you went by beru?
@MODARCADIC I will be getting on a stupid plane tomorrow, after I vote, and probably won't post until later on Wednesday.
Why would you make a vote on me for acting the same way I did in the two games I had with you? In both of those games I was town.
It seems like you are aware of how easily I got killed those two games and are trying to make that happen again.
Self-meta is the worst kind of meta. It's not a good defense.
Please elaborate. What do you mean?
Does it make sense to you for person A to vote for person B based on the fact that person B's attitude is the same as it was in other games... in which person B was town?
Why post this? What does anyone gain from you posting this, besides you (as in, "oh oh look at me I'm town I know the answer")?
This kind of stuff been happening a lot this game. I can't understand the motivation behind it.
There are several reasons why I've done it in this post.
1. I think this is going to become an important exchange, so I want to draw attention to it.
2. I want to remember to respond to it, and when I read through later, this will draw my attention back to this exchange.
3. I want to ensure that WoD answers, but don't want to influence said answer in any way.
1. Doesn't require "oh oh look at me I'm town I know the answer"
2. Doesn't require "oh oh look at me I'm town I know the answer"
3. Doesn't require "oh oh look at me I'm town I know the answer"
All in all a very strange way of doing those 3 things...
1. Doesn't require "oh oh look at me I'm town I know the answer"
2. Doesn't require "oh oh look at me I'm town I know the answer"
3. Doesn't require "oh oh look at me I'm town I know the answer"
All in all a very strange way of doing those 3 things...
Is it scummy?
This forum requires that you wait 30 seconds between posts. Please try again in 1 seconds.
Lessee... the games I've played on IRC last for about 5-15 minutes max, which is why I have never had to analyze people's written content to this degree. And playing this game with real people, you also have body language and actual tones of voice to help in gauging whether someone is scummy or not.
@GT: As I posted prior to the wall of text, it's the vibe I'm getting off of you as a gut feel. There isn't really much I can put my finger on right now, and that's what I stated.
@Bear: I suppose it can be argued that by simply reading the thread, but not posting is not the scummiest thing in the world. It did get you to post though, didn't it? Unvote: A Bear
Yes... you are bad at quoting... Perhaps you should proofread your posts more carefully since there was also confusion on what you meant with the slip that you knew more about the set up than you did.
I am not ever going to apologize for someone quoting a quarter of a sentence out of context and then trying to make something out of it. The person you're looking for on this "causing confusion" charge is not me.
Make serious posts, not random needling.
@LampDwellr: I was confused when reading that post the first time. Even without Kank pointing out the error.
@EtR: What chainsaw? Also, I don't know how to make a train... You saw what happened when I tried it on A Bear... therefore, I just jump on them? As for flailing, I see it as getting attacked for supposedly scummy behavior and trying to explain ourselves to deaf ears. Hence we are flailing... And I voted her because I've seen her looking at the thread and she's actually posted. Seppel and captaineddie haven't even checked in from what I've seen.
And I'm really feeling like replacing since all the more experienced players seem to take any effort I put into this and turn it into me being scummy. You guys actually think I know WTF I'm doing? Maybe I'll just claim, get NKed or lynched and be done with this normal... So I can go do a basic like I originally planned to do in the first place...
Since the random voting stage is over, can we get a votecount?
I think I forgot to quote this in my bigger post... Is your reason for requesting a votecount that we are out of RVS?
yes, my reason for requesting a votecount was that we had finished the RVS. By having a votecount at the end of RVS, it would show where all the non-serious votes were, see how many votes Iso has, and see if there any interactions between people "randomly" voting for the same person
I had to split this out over time, so let's see if Word has helped me make sense of this any:
GrickyTimmick: A) How is voting people outside the game and promising to vote the last person who checks in any incentive to play the game? I see you saying here that you did what you did to help the game in some way. How do you figure? B) What I asked was what are you looking for in everyone else that you think would make them scummy? C) Lastly, what do you think /barn means? D) Why so jumpy about that issue? E) Second, what's wrong with my "educational diatribe" about the subtypes? More specifically, how does that make me scummy? F) Finally, nice retaliation vote there. Any specific reason for it, other than the fact that I voted you first?
A) I look at people not willing to play the game and/or lurk instead as being detrimental to the game. “Last one in the pool is a rotten egg!” Whether that person would be scum, town, or other means less to me than the fact that they just aren’t playing. I have no idea what the overall mafia stats of lurkers to chance of being scum are. All I know is that I have no patience for non-participants. If you sign up to play a game, then play it dammit! B) Contradictory and/or predatory behavior. C) Jumping onto a lynch bandwagon without having any personal justification for it. D) Huh? What? Who goes there? All I know is that I can’t trust any of you. For all I know, my clan mates are all evil and are secretly plotting my demise as I type this. E) I made a small observation about past Normal games, which you weren’t content with, and then you went and blew it way out of proportion on your own. See B) above. F) LampDwellr actually voted for me before you did.
Misting: @Kank: I don't like what you said earlier about taking your posts with a grain of salt. I'm not saying it's scummy, but it's a non-productive place to be. Also, why are you saying things like "I'm a jokester and it will get me lynched until people catch on"?
Because I predict that I’ll have an early death in this game. Oh, I’d love to be proven wrong. I just expect that I’ll be early on the list of lynches/nightkills. Such is my lot in life.
GrickyTimmick: 1. Hawt 2. ok but... 3. Why did you lie? What am I supposed to think about that?
lol at 2/2. hawt was for the lulz btw. I have no clue what you look like obv.
If I didn’t already have a vote on you, I would because of you being tacky instead of scummy. Us girls have to stick together!
Tom: Does it make sense to you for person A to vote for person B based on the fact that person B's attitude is the same as it was in other games... in which person B was town?
It makes sense as a scum player to point out past behavior where you were town that you have replicated in a current game. I’m not seeing you as scum yet by the way, but that does sound like a tactic a scum player would use.
EtR: The game was already going at the time of this post. What was the point here? 1. What games did you look at? 2. If IB is scum, do you actually expect an answer to that question? Or if you were to receive one, do you believe that it would be accurate?
I looked at IB’s own blog post referencing his past mafia history. Do you expect every rhetorical question be answered?
Glad to see you're working to get the game moving, Wessel, but that list is just loaded with WIFOM. Not that we have much else to go on at this point, but it's worth noting for the rookies that that reasoning won't fly later in the game.
Why bring WIFOM into this already? I was just listing my reads so far at the request of LampDwellr. I think many people (including the newer players) will understand that those are just my views on the game. Why do you have to smear it by calling it WIFOM?
No smear here. Just pointing out that stuff like that won't fly later in the game. I really do like that post otherwise, so why smear my WIFOM by calling it a smear?
@everyone, leave PG alone for that voting for lurkers thing. Lurkers might not be scum, you're right, but voting for them to get them to post isn't scummy either. This is helping no one.
@Kank, could you please confirm the exact number of games you looked at when you said "all of the Normal Mafia games ran this year"?
@Wessel, Bolly & Stardust: Thanks for the moral support guys. I think I'll step back for a reread and try to come up with something more tangible. And then hope that more people actually post. Wahaha...
I've read a lot of guides and some other Mafia threads, but i have yet to see one where they explain all the acronyms.
Anyway, I decided not to go with my plan of voting retaliative after being pointed that's considered scummy behavior around here. Since apparently abstaining from vote may also seem scummy, I'll point my finger to the first name I see after scrolling up once.
Vote LampDwellr
Why the random vote here?
It was almost immediately explained that I believed that there would be an official end-of-RVS announcement and as I said in the quoted paragraph I simply was trying to counteract some random accusations that my unwillingless to randomly vote was somehow a scum tell.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
have you ever heard of something called the "general you" [b]Maybe you should have said 'you all' instead to clarify[/c]
also i read really really fast it's just that the font + background combo makes it really hard for me to read large amounts of text on this forum
it's not as bad as the orange/white text on a brown background that the fantasy strike forum has though.
also i dont have the time to post every time im in the thread. :U
also also!!!
i like how you managed to derail discussion by making it entirely about me!
and yourself too of course!
what was it about the previous conversational topics that you didn't like
[b]Previous topic? The topic is to analyze people's play in order to scumhunt. Thus I analyzed your play to try and open up new avenues of thought? And to ultimately make you post.[/b]
I don't plan on lurking in any game ever. Since I don't have past games of my own to rely upon, I have to make use of the past games of others, and I found it numerically odd that so far every day one lynch in the 23/24 player Normal games this year have hit a townie.
I'll stop with the odds from other games and focus on the odds for this one.
We have 23 players.
12 are male characters, 11 are female.
Mafia history would tell us that 25% of these players are scum, and the rest are townsfolk.
If so, that would mean that 6 players are likely to be scum or evil (Gotham had 5 scum and a serial killer).
It would make sense for Arcadic to split the scum/SK into equal halves between the genders, even though in reality, they'd pretty much all be male, but this is a game based on an animated television series and anything goes in those.
So, lets say that there are 3 baddies in the men and 3 baddies in the women.
Right now the males outnumber the females, and if they wanted to, they could team up and wipe out all of the females and practically assure themselves of hitting half of the baddies in the process.
I doubt that Arcadic planned the game to operate like that, so let's not okay? (I'm playing a female after all.)
So the barns are on IB, Maokun, and myself is that right?
I'm not seeing IB behave any differently than the other games I watched him get lynched early in and flip town.
Maokun? No idea. I'm not seeing the guilt you've lain upon this person.
If y'all want me dead instead, then so be it. I'd be bummed, but I'd get over it. It would be a shame though, because I'd actually play the game as opposed to sit around and lurk.
Your assumption that there are 6 scum and 3 are male and 3 are female seems problematic for a number of reasons. Your reasoning from it also strikes me as spurious, because the order in which you kill people matters even if you do decide that it's 90% likely the scum are half-male and half-female - which is not the case.
Since we're gaming the setup a bit here, why do you think it is likely that there are an equal number of M/F scum, exactly?
Hitting half the baddies in 11 lynches is pretty horrible anyway, with nightkills included!
BUT ANYWAY, you're doing this thing through your posts where you're like "sorry I was really joking, sorry you couldn't tell, don't persecute me for making jokes!" If everything you say is half-serious this is a very convenient position for you, wouldn't you say?
Why would you make a vote on me for acting the same way I did in the two games I had with you? In both of those games I was town.
It seems like you are aware of how easily I got killed those two games and are trying to make that happen again.
Self-meta is the worst kind of meta. It's not a good defense.
Please elaborate. What do you mean?
Does it make sense to you for person A to vote for person B based on the fact that person B's attitude is the same as it was in other games... in which person B was town?
Also @pikachuG - hang in there. Your first game is always pretty rough whether it's a basic or otherwise. Just keep posting your thoughts and it will all be sorted out.
[QUOTE=A Bear;/comments/10862769]
have you ever heard of something called the "general you" [b]Maybe you should have said 'you all' instead to clarify[/c]
also i read really really fast it's just that the font + background combo makes it really hard for me to read large amounts of text on this forum
it's not as bad as the orange/white text on a brown background that the fantasy strike forum has though.
also i dont have the time to post every time im in the thread. :U
also also!!!
i like how you managed to derail discussion by making it entirely about me!
and yourself too of course!
what was it about the previous conversational topics that you didn't like
[b]Previous topic? The topic is to analyze people's play in order to scumhunt. Thus I analyzed your play to try and open up new avenues of thought? And to ultimately make you post.[/b]
no the topics at the time were
1) how many scum do we have
2) your existence
3) barns
none of these were entirely resolved yet!
after you voted me, the only topic was me, with all the other ones pretty much being forgotten
thats a really good derailment if there ever was one
Why would you make a vote on me for acting the same way I did in the two games I had with you? In both of those games I was town.
It seems like you are aware of how easily I got killed those two games and are trying to make that happen again.
Self-meta is the worst kind of meta. It's not a good defense.
Please elaborate. What do you mean?
Does it make sense to you for person A to vote for person B based on the fact that person B's attitude is the same as it was in other games... in which person B was town?
No, it doesn't make sense for me to vote for anyone based exclusively on behaviour in past games, because meta is stupid.
And that's all I'm hearing from you here. You need to learn to defend yourself with something that isn't just "But I did it the same way this one time when I was town!"
Meta is stupid, because players play into their meta.
If a given player can play like they would as Town when in fact they are scum, and they can then point to games where they did the same "townie things" and everyone takes it as granted that they're town because they did certain "townie things they do every game", then it comes back to bite you in the ass if you give them a pass. It's even more dodgy and bad if they point to their own meta as a reason for poor play.
So, my summary is: Meta is a super weak tell at best, but if someone points to their own meta as excuse for poor play... It's lazy and no excuse for a proper defense.
Don't just say "I did it THIS WAY in that one game where I was Town". That's lazy.
Provide reasoning, tell us what you were thinking when you posted x or y. Honestly I don't even know why you are self-meta-ing right now, but it's a bad crutch for bad play.
I guess there were only four (it felt like more). Not enough of a representative sampling to seriously extrapolate anything from. Not having any past games myself to draw from, that was the next best thing that I could think of at the time.
I'm noticing a pattern of LampDwellr and GrickyTimmick sharing many of the same opinions yet seemingly avoiding referencing or talking to/about each other.
I'd really like to see them grill each other for a change and show the rest of us novices just how it's supposed to be done.
I must say that I'm somewhat suspicious of a possible interconnection between them.
I guess there were only four (it felt like more). Not enough of a representative sampling to seriously extrapolate anything from. Not having any past games myself to draw from, that was the next best thing that I could think of at the time.
The bolded is what you should have said the first time. It's great that you looked, but I can't help but narrow my eyes a bit at what looks like you twisting the truth.
Whilst I agree that there are issues with that post of Lampdwellrs could you atleast provide some idea of what you find with it
I don't like the fact that LampDwellr seems to know something about the setup that only scum could know. His backpedalling that what he wrote isn't what he meant doesn't ring true to me. It sounds like scum who said too much and got caught.
I guess there were only four (it felt like more). Not enough of a representative sampling to seriously extrapolate anything from. Not having any past games myself to draw from, that was the next best thing that I could think of at the time.
The bolded is what you should have said the first time. It's great that you looked, but I can't help but narrow my eyes a bit at what looks like you twisting the truth.
What truth am I twisting here?
I said I looked at all of the Normal games ran this year (which were four, but truly felt like a lot more since two of them you had to go in deep to find how who died and in what order) and found that all blue townies and one green (?) person died, but I didn't spot a day one offing of anyone in red, and in a couple of them, it took quite a while for the town to find a red baddie.
Purely an observation. Take it for what you will.
It wasn't nearly as helpful as I hoped it would be, but c'est la vie.
Why would you make a vote on me for acting the same way I did in the two games I had with you? In both of those games I was town.
It seems like you are aware of how easily I got killed those two games and are trying to make that happen again.
Self-meta is the worst kind of meta. It's not a good defense.
Please elaborate. What do you mean?
Does it make sense to you for person A to vote for person B based on the fact that person B's attitude is the same as it was in other games... in which person B was town?
No, it doesn't make sense for me to vote for anyone based exclusively on behaviour in past games, because meta is stupid.
And that's all I'm hearing from you here. You need to learn to defend yourself with something that isn't just "But I did it the same way this one time when I was town!"
Meta is stupid, because players play into their meta.
If a given player can play like they would as Town when in fact they are scum, and they can then point to games where they did the same "townie things" and everyone takes it as granted that they're town because they did certain "townie things they do every game", then it comes back to bite you in the ass if you give them a pass. It's even more dodgy and bad if they point to their own meta as a reason for poor play.
So, my summary is: Meta is a super weak tell at best, but if someone points to their own meta as excuse for poor play... It's lazy and no excuse for a proper defense.
Don't just say "I did it THIS WAY in that one game where I was Town". That's lazy.
Provide reasoning, tell us what you were thinking when you posted x or y. Honestly I don't even know why you are self-meta-ing right now, but it's a bad crutch for bad play.
You seem to be convieniently forgetting how this particualr meta got started, with Stardust voting Tom because he was acting the same whay he was in other games. What Tom is doing is pointing out that in those games, he was town, therefore Stardust's vote only makes sense if his reasoning is "Tom is acting the same as he does as town on purpose because he is scum", which is certainly not the argument.
In summary, Tom was defending against meta by pointing out the flaw with it.
This is so obvious to me, I have a hard time beliveing your not intentionally twisting it. Vote: Wrath of Dog
Whilst I agree that there are issues with that post of Lampdwellrs could you atleast provide some idea of what you find with it
I don't like the fact that LampDwellr seems to know something about the setup that only scum could know. His backpedalling that what he wrote isn't what he meant doesn't ring true to me. It sounds like scum who said too much and got caught.
vote LampDwellr
Eh, why did you wait until now to vote? Lamp did not post, all that happened was Kahedron indicated some support.
Well, you see son, sometimes, a man has to think things over before he makes a big decision. If ya just fire up the lawnmower and have at it before you think it through, you'll never have an award winning turf.
i didn't lie
you're thinking of some other bear
there is no post i made that says i am new to mafia :U
I see, you've played mafia before just not on this site, except for one time. I called you a liar because it looked like you were saying that this is only your second game, but in your first game you told them you had five years experience. See what I'm saying?
What do you expect when I'm one of the only experienced people in this game? What do you expect when 3/4's of the players in this game are noobs?
When I'm reading the player list, I identify names that aren't familiar to me. I play a lot of games and read a lot of games and tend to know if a player has been around much at all. That being said, when I read the player list, I thought that Ferro Man, Raging Levine, Misting, Captain Eddie, LampDwellr, Kank, Tom, Macius, Bolly, A Bear, Stardust, PG and Maokun were all noobs. I recognize only some of those names and that's only because mafia isn't the only part of the forum I read. Furthermore, EtR, Reya, Kahedron, and IB are all newer players, not quite noob anymore, but still figuring out the game. Maybe Kahedron is more experienced that I'm thinking, but he plays very few games from what I've seen. That leaves Seppel, Wrath of Dog, Dork Knight, Wessel and Voxxicus as players that I know have experience playing this game.
I may have jumped to conclusions with who I assumed was a noob and for that I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.
I had to split this out over time, so let's see if Word has helped me make sense of this any:
GrickyTimmick: A) How is voting people outside the game and promising to vote the last person who checks in any incentive to play the game? I see you saying here that you did what you did to help the game in some way. How do you figure? B) What I asked was what are you looking for in everyone else that you think would make them scummy? C) Lastly, what do you think /barn means? D) Why so jumpy about that issue? E) Second, what's wrong with my "educational diatribe" about the subtypes? More specifically, how does that make me scummy? F) Finally, nice retaliation vote there. Any specific reason for it, other than the fact that I voted you first?
A) I look at people not willing to play the game and/or lurk instead as being detrimental to the game. “Last one in the pool is a rotten egg!” Whether that person would be scum, town, or other means less to me than the fact that they just aren’t playing. I have no idea what the overall mafia stats of lurkers to chance of being scum are. All I know is that I have no patience for non-participants. If you sign up to play a game, then play it dammit! B) Contradictory and/or predatory behavior. C) Jumping onto a lynch bandwagon without having any personal justification for it. D) Huh? What? Who goes there? All I know is that I can’t trust any of you. For all I know, my clan mates are all evil and are secretly plotting my demise as I type this. E) I made a small observation about past Normal games, which you weren’t content with, and then you went and blew it way out of proportion on your own. See B) above. F) LampDwellr actually voted for me before you did.
A. Your frustration at non-playing players is fine, we are all frustrated that they aren't playing. However, the solution to that problem is and has always been asking the mod to find a replacement. Voting for a player that's not in the game is a scum strategy. Not only does it let you vote and attack someone who doesn't fight back, but it makes you look like you are providing content to the thread without actually providing anything. That's why I'm calling you scummy.
B. It's good that you are looking for behaviorial patterns, but be careful. There are a lot of behaviorial patterns that town and scum can share. The differences lie in their presentation and the situations in which they are behaving. Finding the behaviorial analysis on a player is like finding the motive for a crime. It's great and all, but the motive isn't going to send them to jail, you still need evidence.
C. Actually, /barn means that you agree with whoever you are barning. When IB /barned Wessel's post about RVS being over, he was simply stating that he agrees with what Wessel said. You can /barn a vote, but not all /barns have something to do with voting.
D. This is the kind of thinking that made me call A Bear obvtown. While I'm inclined to believe you hear, the fact is that you made this comment after I had declared mass=paranoia to be a towntell. There's no way of knowing if your faking it or not. BTW, the jokey "Who's there?" bit at the beginning of this makes me less inclined to believe it.
E. Like I've said before, while I have a problem with your research, it's not what makes you scum to me. Its that you have been hiding behind the research in order to justify you not actually voting anyone in the game. You were using that research to post non-content things and appear useful to the town, your posts were all for appearances. I thought it looked scummy, I disproved the legitimacy of the research and I proceeded to explain my thought process and place my vote. I fail to see how that's predatory in any way, I made a case and made my vote. You OMGUS'd me, proceeded to skew my attack to be more about the research than anything else and have, at the time of this reading, suggested that I'm partnered with Lampdwellr just because we are both voting you, which has kept the terrible "noob-bashing" argument afloat.
F. I think this is the beginning of the ties you are trying to make between me and Lampdwellr. I did think I was first, but it turns out that you are right, he was. However, my vote reasoning and analysis are completely different. I'm already knee-deep in quotes so I really don't wanna go searching for it right now, but Lamp's reasons and my reasons have nothing to do with each other from what I remember.
Secondly, you state later on that you believe Lamp and me to be in league, that we are both scum. Have you done any analysis on Lamp to show that he's had scummy actions on his own, or are you just tying him to me because we both voted you?
- In Grickytimmick's post 120 I liked the way he defended InfectiousBaloth. Comparable to EtR (but the other way around), I think scum wouldn't white knight someone in this way. He's basically calling 'bull****' on everyone who voted IB based on the barn, which takes a certain bravado not often seen in scum. Though, now I think of it, I see it would have some advatages for Gricky to protect him as scum, whether IB is his buddy or town. However, what I didn't like in the same post, was his attack on Kank based on that he only looked up Normals from the past year. It seemed overdone, and coupled with his doubtful claim in post 128 that he had only seen that this was a Normal just now, I think it's very shady.
My attack on Kank isn't about his Normal information. That was part of my supportive reasoning, but the full reason that I'm voting him is he's posting a lot of non-content. He posts a lot, but it's a lot of fluff. I see Kank as posturing for the town with these votes for outside players and the statistical justification he uses for doing so. Me pointing out that his evidence was flawed was tantamount to me tearing down the statistical wall that Kank had build as a defense for his actions.
Yea. Not buying it. I think it was bad and opportunistic argumentation to go after him for researching just the Normals of the past year. I know it wasn't your sole argument, but the fact you included this makes me think you're just trying to grasp at straws.
Once again, you are putting to much stock into how much stock I'm putting in the research, if that makes sense. The research argument was only a support to show that his justification for his non-content posts was flawed. So, my arguments were as such - Kank is posting non-content, which is scummy, and he says he can justify it, which is scummy too, because there's zero justification for posting non-content that I can think of. Regardless, his justification (the research) is flawed, so justified or not, his non-content is scummy!
I said earlier, in an argument to Kank, that you can have a motive for someones crime, but you also need side evidence. The research argument is my side evidence for the larger "Kank is a no-content posting noob scum" argument I have been trying to make.
What do you expect when 3/4's of the players in this game are noobs? Eventually, at some point, 'noob smashing' is going to take place. If there were only one or two noobs and I was part of a group of people who had ganged up on those players, then your noob-smashing call would be totally justified. Not here though.
This is a very weak defence. Just because three quarters of a game would be newbies, it doesn't mean you should 'noob smash' (as PikachuGundam calls it). Furthermore, as others have already pointed out, why so over the top in your defence saying 'three quarters of the players are noobs'?
Well, first, because damn near three-quarters of this game is full of noobs, at least to me, as I've explained earlier.
Second, I didn't say I was noob-smashing, but if everyone is going to claim that any attack on a newer player is a "smash" attempt, then there's no use in actually playing this game. There are far too many new or newer players that tip-toeing around them isn't going to get us anywhere. I don't think the way I was playing was "smashing", I even attempted to thwart that argument when I initially made my argument against Kank. I've kept the same level of aggression that I would show to anyone else and I don't believe my tactics to be twisted by any means. "GRICKY SMASH" just isn't a thing, and smashing in general is a rather poor argument anyway. At some point, a noob is going to need to be questioned about something. They aren't babies, they're just new mafia players. I've even seen plenty of newer players that stand up mightily against some of the experienced players we have. I see this "noob-smashing" argument as an excuse to coddle the newer players and a hinderence on anyone who actually wants to accomplish an interrogation in this game.
Furthermore, I believe that I was the only person getting onto Kank at the time. There was no gang-up, just my own personal pressure and analysis of what I saw before me. Calling my actions 'noob smashing' is taking an extremist view of my actions.
So you acknowledge that you were attacking Kank, but you vehemently deny being part of a 'gang-up'. Why the fear of being coupled to LampDwellr? (At least, I think you're referring to him when you're talking about ganging up?)
So apparently Lamp was on Kank too. However, twisting that into a "gang-up" seems like you are twisting the argument quite a bit. I have no fear of being coupled with Lamp, it's just that there's nothing to couple. The only thing we share is that we both voted Kank, for different reasons too. And I wasn't the one who brought ganging-up up. I can't remember who was attacking me at the time, I think it was PG, but I believe he mentioned that I was ganging up on Kank, which is why I brought it up.
So, players I'd like to hear from soon, because hey look, they've disappeared!
Seppel, Reya, Raging Levine, Captain Eddie, Voxx, Macius and I think that's it.
Interesting story, that's 3 men and 3 women. Could it be our scumteam? Doubtful, but worth thinking about. Chances are good that there's at least one scum there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Who was that masked man anyway?
MTGSalvation: Now with more Drama than Season 5 of Supernatural!
Seriously, somebody go find the big man.
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Thing is, what you looked up has a bearing on this game, along with every game. The town is going to lynch someone today and your research claims it's almost guaranteed to be a townie. You were using this logic as a reason to continue voting for people outside the game and not focus on actual in-game stuff. My argument was that your statistic samples are flawed, giving you poor reasoning for not actually contributing. I don't have a problem with you looking at old games, I generally encourage it. However, when you are using flawed statistics to support scummy behavior, I'm going to call you on it.
How is voting people outside the game and promising to vote the last person who checks in any incentive to play the game? I see you saying here that you did what you did to help the game in some way. How do you figure?
What I asked was what are you looking for in everyone else that you think would make them scummy? I'm not asking you to justify or rationalize your defeatism, just what you plan on doing, other than focusing on OOG stuff, to contribute to this game?
I'm not accusing you of lurking, I'm saying you are smart enough to know not to lurk. My argument was that because you are smart enough not to lurk, it's very possible that you would post for appearances. In other words, you would post rather often, but much of your content would be fluff or bear little on this game.
Be careful about gaming the mod. It's not scummy persay, but it's dangerous. Guessing at that mod's setup and then planning around what you guessed at can lead to scum misleading you and possibly others based on what you thought was sure thing information.
Lastly, what do you think /barn means? The last bit of your post makes me think that you think a /barn is an indicator of suspicion.
First, I never asked you to edit your post and I certainly wasn't calling you scum for bad post formatting, I was just complaining a bit. Why so jumpy about that issue?
Second, what's wrong with my "educational diatribe" about the subtypes? More specifically, how does that make me scummy?
Third, comparing any games with each other is going to result in large differences. This game has gender mechanics, something I've personally never seen before in a game. Add in the multitude of different roles that can and do exist in various games and the varying amount of players in those games, and each one, even though they are in the same catagory, are completely different. Some of those differences can account for some of the early game play.
Also, I just did a check and there are only 4 completed Normal mafia games in the year of 2012. Gotham Underground, Cyberpunk, Starcraft and Flame Warriors. If that's all you are basing your statistics off of, it further proves the unreliability of those statistics.
Once again, my problem with you regarding your statistics isn't the statistics themselves, it's that you were using those stats to justify not lynching anyone and voting for Iso or whoever checked in last. You were resigning yourself to no-content land and giving a reason why you should be allowed to get away with it. What would be more helpful than your old statistics would be if you either made the stat's more comprehensive or if you actually played the game and did some behaviorial analysis or something.
Finally, nice retaliation vote there. Any specific reason for it, other than the fact that I voted you first?
My attack on Kank isn't about his Normal information. That was part of my supportive reasoning, but the full reason that I'm voting him is he's posting a lot of non-content. He posts a lot, but it's a lot of fluff. I see Kank as posturing for the town with these votes for outside players and the statistical justification he uses for doing so. Me pointing out that his evidence was flawed was tantamount to me tearing down the statistical wall that Kank had build as a defense for his actions.
@PikachuGundum: I'm calling you PG from now on.
Also, you don't like my posts for 'noob smashing'. What do you expect when I'm one of the only experienced people in this game? What do you expect when 3/4's of the players in this game are noobs? Eventually, at some point, 'noob smashing' is going to take place. If there were only one or two noobs and I was part of a group of people who had ganged up on those players, then your noob-smashing call would be totally justified. Not here though. Furthermore, I believe that I was the only person getting onto Kank at the time. There was no gang-up, just my own personal pressure and analysis of what I saw before me. Calling my actions 'noob smashing' is taking an extremist view of my actions.
As for the condescending you claim to see, there's really nothing I can do about that. I found the post hilarious because I was already thinking of a ridiculous comparison I could make, which ended up being the apples and Ikea's thing. Still, I can't change that you view it condescendingly. What I can ask though is how does that make me scum? What's your thought process here?
I'm reading this attack onto A bear as a scummy attack on a player who is fairly obvtown at this point, regardless of his level of posting. This makes me not like PG at all.
Why would you make a vote on me for acting the same way I did in the two games I had with you? In both of those games I was town.
It seems like you are aware of how easily I got killed those two games and are trying to make that happen again.
Why is AB (what I'm calling A Bear) "fairly obvtown"?
Bolding by me. Keep in mind.
Deflection..using the thing you said yourself? And why are you going after her for lurking when there are far worse lurkers?
I also have to agree with Gricky on much of PG's attack on him, namely the "noob-smashing".
In fact, before this next post I would have had GT leaning town.
Obvtown? When she had had litterally three posts at that point, one of which was RVS and one of which was terminology clarification? Explain please.
--------------------------------------------------
@Kank: I don't like what you said earlier about taking your posts with a grain of salt. I'm not saying it's scummy, but it's a non-productive place to be. Also, why are you saying things like "I'm a jokester and it will get me lynched until people catch on"?
EWP: Tom beat me to the "obvtown" thing, and makes a very good point against Stardust.
have you ever heard of something called the "general you"
also i read really really fast it's just that the font + background combo makes it really hard for me to read large amounts of text on this forum
it's not as bad as the orange/white text on a brown background that the fantasy strike forum has though.
also i dont have the time to post every time im in the thread. :U
also also!!!
i like how you managed to derail discussion by making it entirely about me!
and yourself too of course!
what was it about the previous conversational topics that you didn't like
First, AB is a noob. His tells are going to be much more obvious than an experienced players. He proves it here over the frustration about walls-o-text. It's not an alignment tell at all, just helps us understand that he's completely new.
Now that it's firmly established that he's new, take a look at the bolded statements. A newer player calling out /barning as a bad habit strikes me as townie because he's preaching something that's generally a well known fact. He goes on to explain why voicing your opinion, even if it's similar to someone else's, is better play. Even though he's spouting well known things to experience mafia players, newer players may not know about these things. So not only is he showing a townie mindset by learning these things early, where scum would rather take advantage of these things, he's also preaching it, which is an incredibly protown move for a player who doesn't know any better.
Top it off with his last section, the second bolded part. He shows mass-paranoia, which is typical of a newer town player. Scum don't show paranoia because they know who they can trust, they know their partners. Noob townies aren't very willing to trust anyone and they let that be known.
At face value, I'm thinking AB is easily town. Unless he's lying about his mafia experience, I'm doubtful that will change.
I am not ever going to apologize for someone quoting a quarter of a sentence out of context and then trying to make something out of it. The person you're looking for on this "causing confusion" charge is not me.
Make serious posts, not random needling.
I have decided nothing. It's a vote.
Har. Draw this out to its logical conclusion: the people playing the most town are the people who do nothing to advance the plot. Ergo, nobody should advance the plot.
1) I'm a girl
2) this is my second game here, but
3) in that game i said i'd been playing mafia for 5 years
also just call me Bear
you can call me 2/2 too, that's just as well
1. hawt
2. ok but...
3. Why did you lie? What am I supposed to think about that?
lol at 2/2. hawt was for the lulz btw. I have no clue what you look like obv.
Please elaborate. What do you mean?
Does it make sense to you for person A to vote for person B based on the fact that person B's attitude is the same as it was in other games... in which person B was town?
you're thinking of some other bear
there is no post i made that says i am new to mafia :U
@lampdwellr: no, you're supposed to attack people on what they actually said, not what they didn't say, this isn't politics (unless there is a very specific omitted thing you want to know and then you ask them about it before attacking them on it)
Also, ***, it seems you missed my above question. Please answer it, and then answer Kahedron's question (Eron already answered it, and I want to see what you have to say, specifically, in answer to Kahedron's question).
Is that chainsaw heavy?
The game was already going at the time of this post. What was the point here?
Why the random vote here?
This is quite the enjoyable fluff post. It seems like you're busy if you look at post counts (which for some reason Star(?) is keeping track of) but it's just actually padding to the actual count.
1. What games did you look at?
2. If IB is scum, do you actually expect an answer to that question? Or if you were to receive one, do you believe that it would be accurate?
This feels like coaching. You set up an answer, then give the question. At this point she could reply with "Well, I don't feel that way, but everyone is going to think I am." Why not just ask the question if you want a legitimate answer?
WoD, since I've answered why I voted, I'm interested in your answer now.
I'm in your head now...And I'll never leave.
So you're cool with him barning a post requesting content, posting no content, and then overreacting to the votes against him?
So you believe that a scum can't be caught of one post? A post that you just can't understand the mindset behind? A post that accomplishes exactly what the post that was barned was urging not to do?
Whoever said they have problems with barns in general? That barn, yes. Barns in general, no.
At the end of all this I have GT as leaning scum and partnering with IB. More to come on this later though.
No worries. I'm terrible with wording, punctuation and vocabulary in general, so my apologies for being a grump.
This I can get behind. I'm not totally experienced, but I think I have about 10 games at this point, counting my replaces in's. Unless something is totally out of left field (i.e., the retaliation thing from the beginning of the game) then I think we need to call it out. And even if it is out of left field it's worth calling out.
Like this for example. Why are you just waiting for a train as opposed to creating one on someone that you suspect?
Setting up your soon to come vote?
Why do you have IB, Kank, Maokun, and f_m as flailing anything?
Whoomp there it is. Do not like. Bear has posted more content than Seppel and the captain...Why the vote for her?
As an aside - This is the reason that I set myself to invisible. I read from my phone, my work laptop, at home, running through airports, whatever. It's always easy to read. You don't always have time to make a post though. Getting voted for trying to keep up with a game while not actually having time to post is dumb. I'm not saying that is what Bear is doing, but that's from my perspective.
I have to agree with Gricky here. In fact, this post changed my opinion of GT.
Here is my thoughts on GT at the moment:
Hated his defense of IB.
Liked some of his back and forth with other players.
Liked his defense of Bear here.
This leads me to have GT leaning town. This doesn't change my opinion of IB at the moment though. I do believe based on my read of IB being scum and GT defending him AND Bear that further cements my town read on GT.
Wait a minute... GT - where did you get that Bear was new?
A Bear - I thought you went by beru?
@MODARCADIC I will be getting on a stupid plane tomorrow, after I vote, and probably won't post until later on Wednesday.
Must......Not......Respond......To.....Other......People's.....Questions......
Here's a question you can answer:
Why post this? What does anyone gain from you posting this, besides you (as in, "oh oh look at me I'm town I know the answer")?
This kind of stuff been happening a lot this game. I can't understand the motivation behind it.
To add on to this question: GT, where did you get that most of the players in this game are new?
After reviewing the list of players there are only 5 people that I know to be noobs. Kank, myself, Macius, PG, and Maokun.
5 out of 23. Even if I missed someone, it would only be 6 out of 23. Nowhere near your "75%":
There are several reasons why I've done it in this post.
1. I think this is going to become an important exchange, so I want to draw attention to it.
2. I want to remember to respond to it, and when I read through later, this will draw my attention back to this exchange.
3. I want to ensure that WoD answers, but don't want to influence said answer in any way.
2. Doesn't require "oh oh look at me I'm town I know the answer"
3. Doesn't require "oh oh look at me I'm town I know the answer"
All in all a very strange way of doing those 3 things...
I think I forgot to quote this in my bigger post... Is your reason for requesting a votecount that we are out of RVS?
Is it scummy?
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@GT: As I posted prior to the wall of text, it's the vibe I'm getting off of you as a gut feel. There isn't really much I can put my finger on right now, and that's what I stated.
@Bear: I suppose it can be argued that by simply reading the thread, but not posting is not the scummiest thing in the world. It did get you to post though, didn't it? Unvote: A Bear
@LampDwellr: I was confused when reading that post the first time. Even without Kank pointing out the error.
@EtR: What chainsaw? Also, I don't know how to make a train... You saw what happened when I tried it on A Bear... therefore, I just jump on them? As for flailing, I see it as getting attacked for supposedly scummy behavior and trying to explain ourselves to deaf ears. Hence we are flailing... And I voted her because I've seen her looking at the thread and she's actually posted. Seppel and captaineddie haven't even checked in from what I've seen.
And I'm really feeling like replacing since all the more experienced players seem to take any effort I put into this and turn it into me being scummy. You guys actually think I know WTF I'm doing? Maybe I'll just claim, get NKed or lynched and be done with this normal... So I can go do a basic like I originally planned to do in the first place...
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yes, my reason for requesting a votecount was that we had finished the RVS. By having a votecount at the end of RVS, it would show where all the non-serious votes were, see how many votes Iso has, and see if there any interactions between people "randomly" voting for the same person
A) I look at people not willing to play the game and/or lurk instead as being detrimental to the game. “Last one in the pool is a rotten egg!” Whether that person would be scum, town, or other means less to me than the fact that they just aren’t playing. I have no idea what the overall mafia stats of lurkers to chance of being scum are. All I know is that I have no patience for non-participants. If you sign up to play a game, then play it dammit!
B) Contradictory and/or predatory behavior.
C) Jumping onto a lynch bandwagon without having any personal justification for it.
D) Huh? What? Who goes there? All I know is that I can’t trust any of you. For all I know, my clan mates are all evil and are secretly plotting my demise as I type this.
E) I made a small observation about past Normal games, which you weren’t content with, and then you went and blew it way out of proportion on your own. See B) above.
F) LampDwellr actually voted for me before you did.
Because I predict that I’ll have an early death in this game. Oh, I’d love to be proven wrong. I just expect that I’ll be early on the list of lynches/nightkills. Such is my lot in life.
If I didn’t already have a vote on you, I would because of you being tacky instead of scummy. Us girls have to stick together!
It makes sense as a scum player to point out past behavior where you were town that you have replicated in a current game. I’m not seeing you as scum yet by the way, but that does sound like a tactic a scum player would use.
I looked at IB’s own blog post referencing his past mafia history.
Do you expect every rhetorical question be answered?
No smear here. Just pointing out that stuff like that won't fly later in the game. I really do like that post otherwise, so why smear my WIFOM by calling it a smear?
@everyone, leave PG alone for that voting for lurkers thing. Lurkers might not be scum, you're right, but voting for them to get them to post isn't scummy either. This is helping no one.
@Kank, could you please confirm the exact number of games you looked at when you said "all of the Normal Mafia games ran this year"?
A votecount will be incoming. Prods will be sent to any player who has not posted or confirmed.
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It was almost immediately explained that I believed that there would be an official end-of-RVS announcement and as I said in the quoted paragraph I simply was trying to counteract some random accusations that my unwillingless to randomly vote was somehow a scum tell.
She's not lying... you're just trying to put her into the noob bracket, when she isn't a noob.
And I'm going to go reread the last few pages again because there was a lot of content... Yay content!
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Well that post just ain't right.
Whilst I agree that there are issues with that post of Lampdwellrs could you atleast provide some idea of what you find with it
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Do you find this post scummy?
What do you think of those attacking you?
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no the topics at the time were
1) how many scum do we have
2) your existence
3) barns
none of these were entirely resolved yet!
after you voted me, the only topic was me, with all the other ones pretty much being forgotten
thats a really good derailment if there ever was one
And that's all I'm hearing from you here. You need to learn to defend yourself with something that isn't just "But I did it the same way this one time when I was town!"
Meta is stupid, because players play into their meta.
If a given player can play like they would as Town when in fact they are scum, and they can then point to games where they did the same "townie things" and everyone takes it as granted that they're town because they did certain "townie things they do every game", then it comes back to bite you in the ass if you give them a pass. It's even more dodgy and bad if they point to their own meta as a reason for poor play.
So, my summary is: Meta is a super weak tell at best, but if someone points to their own meta as excuse for poor play... It's lazy and no excuse for a proper defense.
Don't just say "I did it THIS WAY in that one game where I was Town". That's lazy.
Provide reasoning, tell us what you were thinking when you posted x or y. Honestly I don't even know why you are self-meta-ing right now, but it's a bad crutch for bad play.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=417522
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=404435
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=375262
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=356511
I guess there were only four (it felt like more). Not enough of a representative sampling to seriously extrapolate anything from. Not having any past games myself to draw from, that was the next best thing that I could think of at the time.
I'm noticing a pattern of LampDwellr and GrickyTimmick sharing many of the same opinions yet seemingly avoiding referencing or talking to/about each other.
I'd really like to see them grill each other for a change and show the rest of us novices just how it's supposed to be done.
I must say that I'm somewhat suspicious of a possible interconnection between them.
infectiousbaloth (4): Eron ; Tom ; WoD ; Reya
Kankennon (3): Raging Levine ; LampDwellr ; GrickyTimmick
Wessel (1): Misting
captaineddie (1): ferro_man
Maokun (1): infectiousbaloth
Misting (1): Maokun
GrickyTimmick (1): Kankennon
Tom (1): Stardust
LampDwellr (1): Kahedron
Not Voting (9)- Seppel ; Dork Knight ; captaineddie ; Macius ; Bolly ; A bear ; Wessel ; pikachugundam ; Voxxicus
Prodding - captaineddie ; Seppel ; Voxxicus
If i have made any errors, please let me know.
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The bolded is what you should have said the first time. It's great that you looked, but I can't help but narrow my eyes a bit at what looks like you twisting the truth.
I don't like the fact that LampDwellr seems to know something about the setup that only scum could know. His backpedalling that what he wrote isn't what he meant doesn't ring true to me. It sounds like scum who said too much and got caught.
vote LampDwellr
What truth am I twisting here?
I said I looked at all of the Normal games ran this year (which were four, but truly felt like a lot more since two of them you had to go in deep to find how who died and in what order) and found that all blue townies and one green (?) person died, but I didn't spot a day one offing of anyone in red, and in a couple of them, it took quite a while for the town to find a red baddie.
Purely an observation. Take it for what you will.
It wasn't nearly as helpful as I hoped it would be, but c'est la vie.
Unvote. Forgot about that.
You seem to be convieniently forgetting how this particualr meta got started, with Stardust voting Tom because he was acting the same whay he was in other games. What Tom is doing is pointing out that in those games, he was town, therefore Stardust's vote only makes sense if his reasoning is "Tom is acting the same as he does as town on purpose because he is scum", which is certainly not the argument.
In summary, Tom was defending against meta by pointing out the flaw with it.
This is so obvious to me, I have a hard time beliveing your not intentionally twisting it. Vote: Wrath of Dog
Eh, why did you wait until now to vote? Lamp did not post, all that happened was Kahedron indicated some support.
I see, you've played mafia before just not on this site, except for one time. I called you a liar because it looked like you were saying that this is only your second game, but in your first game you told them you had five years experience. See what I'm saying?
When I'm reading the player list, I identify names that aren't familiar to me. I play a lot of games and read a lot of games and tend to know if a player has been around much at all. That being said, when I read the player list, I thought that Ferro Man, Raging Levine, Misting, Captain Eddie, LampDwellr, Kank, Tom, Macius, Bolly, A Bear, Stardust, PG and Maokun were all noobs. I recognize only some of those names and that's only because mafia isn't the only part of the forum I read. Furthermore, EtR, Reya, Kahedron, and IB are all newer players, not quite noob anymore, but still figuring out the game. Maybe Kahedron is more experienced that I'm thinking, but he plays very few games from what I've seen. That leaves Seppel, Wrath of Dog, Dork Knight, Wessel and Voxxicus as players that I know have experience playing this game.
I may have jumped to conclusions with who I assumed was a noob and for that I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.
A. Your frustration at non-playing players is fine, we are all frustrated that they aren't playing. However, the solution to that problem is and has always been asking the mod to find a replacement. Voting for a player that's not in the game is a scum strategy. Not only does it let you vote and attack someone who doesn't fight back, but it makes you look like you are providing content to the thread without actually providing anything. That's why I'm calling you scummy.
B. It's good that you are looking for behaviorial patterns, but be careful. There are a lot of behaviorial patterns that town and scum can share. The differences lie in their presentation and the situations in which they are behaving. Finding the behaviorial analysis on a player is like finding the motive for a crime. It's great and all, but the motive isn't going to send them to jail, you still need evidence.
C. Actually, /barn means that you agree with whoever you are barning. When IB /barned Wessel's post about RVS being over, he was simply stating that he agrees with what Wessel said. You can /barn a vote, but not all /barns have something to do with voting.
D. This is the kind of thinking that made me call A Bear obvtown. While I'm inclined to believe you hear, the fact is that you made this comment after I had declared mass=paranoia to be a towntell. There's no way of knowing if your faking it or not. BTW, the jokey "Who's there?" bit at the beginning of this makes me less inclined to believe it.
E. Like I've said before, while I have a problem with your research, it's not what makes you scum to me. Its that you have been hiding behind the research in order to justify you not actually voting anyone in the game. You were using that research to post non-content things and appear useful to the town, your posts were all for appearances. I thought it looked scummy, I disproved the legitimacy of the research and I proceeded to explain my thought process and place my vote. I fail to see how that's predatory in any way, I made a case and made my vote. You OMGUS'd me, proceeded to skew my attack to be more about the research than anything else and have, at the time of this reading, suggested that I'm partnered with Lampdwellr just because we are both voting you, which has kept the terrible "noob-bashing" argument afloat.
F. I think this is the beginning of the ties you are trying to make between me and Lampdwellr. I did think I was first, but it turns out that you are right, he was. However, my vote reasoning and analysis are completely different. I'm already knee-deep in quotes so I really don't wanna go searching for it right now, but Lamp's reasons and my reasons have nothing to do with each other from what I remember.
Secondly, you state later on that you believe Lamp and me to be in league, that we are both scum. Have you done any analysis on Lamp to show that he's had scummy actions on his own, or are you just tying him to me because we both voted you?
Once again, you are putting to much stock into how much stock I'm putting in the research, if that makes sense. The research argument was only a support to show that his justification for his non-content posts was flawed. So, my arguments were as such - Kank is posting non-content, which is scummy, and he says he can justify it, which is scummy too, because there's zero justification for posting non-content that I can think of. Regardless, his justification (the research) is flawed, so justified or not, his non-content is scummy!
I said earlier, in an argument to Kank, that you can have a motive for someones crime, but you also need side evidence. The research argument is my side evidence for the larger "Kank is a no-content posting noob scum" argument I have been trying to make.
Well, first, because damn near three-quarters of this game is full of noobs, at least to me, as I've explained earlier.
Second, I didn't say I was noob-smashing, but if everyone is going to claim that any attack on a newer player is a "smash" attempt, then there's no use in actually playing this game. There are far too many new or newer players that tip-toeing around them isn't going to get us anywhere. I don't think the way I was playing was "smashing", I even attempted to thwart that argument when I initially made my argument against Kank. I've kept the same level of aggression that I would show to anyone else and I don't believe my tactics to be twisted by any means. "GRICKY SMASH" just isn't a thing, and smashing in general is a rather poor argument anyway. At some point, a noob is going to need to be questioned about something. They aren't babies, they're just new mafia players. I've even seen plenty of newer players that stand up mightily against some of the experienced players we have. I see this "noob-smashing" argument as an excuse to coddle the newer players and a hinderence on anyone who actually wants to accomplish an interrogation in this game.
So apparently Lamp was on Kank too. However, twisting that into a "gang-up" seems like you are twisting the argument quite a bit. I have no fear of being coupled with Lamp, it's just that there's nothing to couple. The only thing we share is that we both voted Kank, for different reasons too. And I wasn't the one who brought ganging-up up. I can't remember who was attacking me at the time, I think it was PG, but I believe he mentioned that I was ganging up on Kank, which is why I brought it up.
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So, players I'd like to hear from soon, because hey look, they've disappeared!
Seppel, Reya, Raging Levine, Captain Eddie, Voxx, Macius and I think that's it.
Interesting story, that's 3 men and 3 women. Could it be our scumteam? Doubtful, but worth thinking about. Chances are good that there's at least one scum there.