In the first video, the woman is alleged to have walked onto the bus and attempted to sit down without paying the fare. The bus driver calls her on it, and when she gets belligerent he decides to throw it back in her face. While we only catch two minutes of the confrontation, it ends badly for the woman: after spitting/hitting the driver while the bus is in motion, the driver pulls the bus over, saying, "You goin' to jail now! You goin' to jail now!" before suddenly uppercutting the woman. After attempting to throw her off the bus, she remains belligerent, going so far as to say he shouldn't be hitting a woman, period. His response is classic:
"I don't care! She wanna' act like a man, I'ma treat you like a man!"
Now, her version is that she wasn't trying to skimp on fare, but had sat down to "look for" the money to pay. I don't know why you don't have the money ready, I know I do before I get on the bus. I digress.
She claims that he was the one who was belligerent, and claims she was the one assaulted by the bus driver without provocation.
Either way, the bus driver was fired, and she's apparently suing him for the attack.
In the second video, an elderly white gentleman and a younger black man are verbally assaulting each other. At one point the man gets up and walks to the front of the bus, with the black guy still insulting him. The white guy, not taking **** at this point, throws it back at him. The black guy walks up, says something then starts walking away. The white gentleman (I'm just going to refer to him by his online nickname now, "Vietnam Tom") says something along the lines of, "I see a bunch of hardasses like you everyday! I'll slap the **** out of you!"
The black guy walks back to Tom in a threatening manner. He makes a move at Tom, which looks to be some sort of strike aimed at his midsection. In an instant, Tom is on the guy, pummeling him with his fists and even slamming his head against the seat. The hardass is suddenly crying and begging not to be beaten anymore, and Tom is kicked off the bus by the driver.
-----
In both instances, I would say no party is "right" in this, other than in self-defense. You might be able to make a case that the female attacking the bus driver didn't warrant an uppercut, but I would remind you the bus was in motion. Had the bus driver attempted to defend himself and swerved, he could have caused an accident. Tom's case was pure self-defense: he'd just been attacked by a man who admits he was drunk at the time, and he defended himself. Plus, let's face it: the guy was a Vietnam vet...he's dealt with his fair share of **** in life!
So the question of the day: would you ever consider these people who defended themselves at fault for doing so? I don't think I could bring myself to do so...hell, in one instance there was a very real threat to public safety! I mean...he's driving a ****ing bus!
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would you ever consider these people who defended themselves at fault for doing so?
If somebody attacks you and you try to defend yourself in response, there needs to be some proportionality between the attack and the defense. For example, if a guy slaps you and in response you pull out your gun and shoot him, then your so-called 'defense' is ridiculously disproportionate to the original attack.
In the two examples you have given I personally do not think that the defense was disproportionate to the original attack / provocation.
If it is in self defense I understand but other than that I don't believe it is ever right to hit a woman. In these cases the result was justifiable imo.
For the first video, I don't believe that it is right to hit a woman, and could not see myself ever doing it unless it was a life or death situation. However, if a woman hits a man first assuming that he will not hit back due to morals, I have zero pity for her. I thought the woman that got hit deserved what she got.
As for Vietnam Tom/Epic Beard Man, considering that the video got him internet popularity, a lot of support, and even a B-movie made about him, I think he made the right choice.
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I have a feeling this'll boil down to the arguments that always gets shown.
Technically, he uppercut the woman who "only" slapped him, as spitting doesn't do anything except disrespect. Some people will say he over-reacted, circumstances don't matter. On the other hand, she could have killed someone, by making the buss run over them. This makes me think of airplane pilots who take guns on aircrafts to save the crew by shooting the terrorist.
I don't know if she deserved that punch, but I am happy he punched her.
If it is in self defense I understand but other than that I don't believe it is ever right to hit a woman.
This attitude is what's perpetuating the woman's place in society. They're still underpaid and overlooked for promotions because we still look at them as something to be protected. Women want to be treated as equals, and it can't be halfsies. As noble as your statement sounds, it's doing them a disservice.
To the OP: Yes, self defense is justifiable as long as the response is proportionate. The law already does a good job of defining what self defense is, and take note that "self defense" stops if you have the opportunity to flee the altercation but do not. In the case of the old man, I think he did go a bit too far. When the kid started begging, he should have got up and left.
If we want to give women equal rights (which we should) in all regards, they should expect equal retribution for actions perpetrated under the guise of being "the fair sex".
If it is in self defense I understand but other than that I don't believe it is ever right to hit a woman.
This attitude is what's perpetuating the woman's place in society. They're still underpaid and overlooked for promotions because we still look at them as something to be protected. Women want to be treated as equals, and it can't be halfsies. As noble as your statement sounds, it's doing them a disservice.
I am so happy others see it like I do. I was taught to respect women, but they can cross that line too.
Until we start treating people how they treat others, there will always be those who feel they can step on others. Both of the people got what was coming to them. I am happy to see people actually standing up to the bullies and those who feel they can do as they wish and screw everyone else. Maybe if enough people start standing up for themselves, the laws will reflect the wants of those who are tired of being spit on, slapped and just bullied all together.
The best way to deal with a bully, loud mouth is not to walk away, that just gives them more power over you. Stand your ground.
When you spit on and slap a person, you can never be sure what response you'll provoke; you have to expect anything, and it's pretty freaking stupid to think your genitals will protect you. But at the same time, an all-out attack is absolutely the wrong response. There is exactly one profession where you can uppercut a client and not be fired, and that is boxing coach.
Watching the video makes it abundantly clear that neither of them were gentlemen.
The video doesn't show the beginning of the altercation; my recollection from the first time it made its rounds on the internet is that Epic Beard Guy basically started it (though as you can see, it was clearly a "takes two to tango" situation throughout).
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When you spit on and slap a person, you can never be sure what response you'll provoke; you have to expect anything, and it's pretty freaking stupid to think your genitals will protect you. But at the same time, an all-out attack is absolutely the wrong response. There is exactly one profession where you can uppercut a client and not be fired, and that is boxing coach.
To be fair, she was slapping someone driving what could easily become a box of death for anything nearby.
Her actions endangered a street full of pedestrians, other drivers, and everyone sitting on the bus. His reaction only appears extreme if you don't take this into account.
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Well since the driver responded it escalated from assault to a fight. So yes, fighting on the job should get you fired. It has nothing to do with her being a woman.
So an elderly white man is a gentleman but a young black man isn't?
That crossed my mind as well. Initially I thought the OP was just being facetious with calling the old guy a gentleman, but the repeated use of that word has me thinking otherwise.
Well since the driver responded it escalated from assault to a fight. So yes, fighting on the job should get you fired. It has nothing to do with her being a woman.
That's why she should get the book thrown at her, not why he shouldn't.
Look, I see where you're both coming from, and I'm not trying to outright excuse the driver, but this is where my train of thought is going for now:
A bus driver is in some position of authority while he is driving his bus. He is in charge of the safety and well being of his passengers, and he is liable for any damage his bus would cause. If someone within the bus threatens that safety, he has the authority to remove that person from the bus.
I can't watch the video here at work; I've seen it once before but my memory isn't that clear. I think I remember him telling her to get off the bus after he stops. If she refuses to obey that authority, what course is left other than to physically remove her from the bus?
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Also I believe in the video the old guy was asking the black guy how much for a shoe shine, so I guess the black guy took it as him implying he was a hobo/slave of some sort. That's when the altercation really started.
Well since the driver responded it escalated from assault to a fight. So yes, fighting on the job should get you fired. It has nothing to do with her being a woman.
That's why she should get the book thrown at her, not why he shouldn't.
Look, I see where you're both coming from, and I'm not trying to outright excuse the driver, but this is where my train of thought is going for now:
A bus driver is in some position of authority while he is driving his bus. He is in charge of the safety and well being of his passengers, and he is liable for any damage his bus would cause. If someone within the bus threatens that safety, he has the authority to remove that person from the bus.
I can't watch the video here at work; I've seen it once before but my memory isn't that clear. I think I remember him telling her to get off the bus after he stops. If she refuses to obey that authority, what course is left other than to physically remove her from the bus?
He could call the cops. I don't believe there was an immediate threat that forced him to act, if she had a weapon it would have been a different matter.
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I can't watch the video here at work; I've seen it once before but my memory isn't that clear. I think I remember him telling her to get off the bus after he stops. If she refuses to obey that authority, what course is left other than to physically remove her from the bus?
Watch the video again when you can. It's not a driver attempting to physically remove a passenger from the bus. It's a driver attacking a passenger. He's out of control.
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What is so disturbing about this is the differential in physical status. What do you think of the guy that’s 6’5, 300lbs who punches another man that’s 5’3, 115 over spoken words? I think he’s almost always going to be disproportionately at fault. The little guy is, in most circumstance, not going to pose a threat. So why react in such a violent manner when you are not in harm’s way (we are assuming he is not in harm’s way)? In a civilized society physical stature should not play a role in determining dominance.
People are *******s. That guy on the bus that hit that woman is a piece of **** and deserves to have someone of disproportionate size, the likeness of him compared to that woman, hit him in the same way. The woman assumed she wasn’t going to get hit, and she acted a fool. That’s on her for being a bad person. Getting assaulted like that is not on her imo. It’s on that guy. I liken it to a child annoying an adult and the adult smashing the kids with a closed fist punch (child in reference to physical size, and nothing else). Simply unacceptable.
I know the damage I can do to someone with a single punch. Given my relatively high strength, I am obligated to take it into account in situations like this unless I simply don’t care how much a hurt someone else. Fortunately I do care how much I might hurt other people. No amount of frustration could send my fist into the face of a woman at high velocity. I’m too worried about how much it would hurt her, or anyone else. It’s has to be self defense.
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What is so disturbing about this is the differential in physical status. What do you think of the guy that’s 6’5, 300lbs who punches another man that’s 5’3, 115 over spoken words? I think he’s almost always going to be disproportionately at fault. The little guy is, in most circumstance, not going to pose a threat. So why react in such a violent manner when you are not in harm’s way (we are assuming he is not in harm’s way)? In a civilized society physical stature should not play a role in determining dominance.
People are *******s. That guy on the bus that hit that woman is a piece of **** and deserves to have someone of disproportionate size, the likeness of him compared to that woman, hit him in the same way. The woman assumed she wasn’t going to get hit, and she acted a fool. That’s on her for being a bad person. Getting assaulted like that is not on her imo. It’s on that guy. I liken it to a child annoying an adult and the adult smashing the kids with a closed fist punch (child in reference to physical size, and nothing else). Simply unacceptable.
I know the damage I can do to someone with a single punch. Given my relatively high strength, I am obligated to take it into account in situations like this unless I simply don’t care how much a hurt someone else. Fortunately I do care how much I might hurt other people. No amount of frustration could send my fist into the face of a woman at high velocity. I’m too worried about how much it would hurt her, or anyone else. It’s has to be self defense.
Well he was a vietnam vet, he probably fought people smaller than him in the war all the time who were experts at fighting. You can't just assume you're in no threat because you're bigger than the other guy. I mean if you met a guy a night and you proceeded to throw punches at you you're not going to defence you self with closes fists?? Because you're bigger?
I'm in complete agreement with BS on this situation. Furthermore, one of the problems with women is that they believe the "slap" is a correct way to handle situations yet a "man can't respond because they're bigger." Well, first off there are women that are bigger than men and abusers who are smaller than their victims. Which is where the warped view of the genders begins about "fairness."
Spitting on someone in all cultures is one of the lowest things you can do, and if you've ever been spit on you remember it. It's not just the slap, it's both in conjunction that makes the woman the problem. The man attacking her is also equally problematic, and he is a public servant that has a place to put up with such people.
Frankly, the woman was naive about people and immature for her age. And this is where women need to be careful about putting themselves into purposely dangerous situations. This isn't your boyfriend that wants to maintain good relations with you because he wants and is concerned about your feelings and gets sex, it's a random stranger that is controlling a very large bus that also be used to hurt many people if it escalates. They're equally highly irresponsible and selfish to the other people in a closed quarters situation. Ever watch Speed? Yea that's a bus movie, about now screwing around on a bus without Sandra Bullock.
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I can't watch the video here at work; I've seen it once before but my memory isn't that clear. I think I remember him telling her to get off the bus after he stops. If she refuses to obey that authority, what course is left other than to physically remove her from the bus?
Watch the video again when you can. It's not a driver attempting to physically remove a passenger from the bus. It's a driver attacking a passenger. He's out of control.
I have watched it 3 times. After he punches her hes trying to get her out the door and she is fighting him the whole time. She falls to the ground and hes trying to get her off the bus.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0103uw6q0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLhXbQl1kvk&feature=related
In the first video, the woman is alleged to have walked onto the bus and attempted to sit down without paying the fare. The bus driver calls her on it, and when she gets belligerent he decides to throw it back in her face. While we only catch two minutes of the confrontation, it ends badly for the woman: after spitting/hitting the driver while the bus is in motion, the driver pulls the bus over, saying, "You goin' to jail now! You goin' to jail now!" before suddenly uppercutting the woman. After attempting to throw her off the bus, she remains belligerent, going so far as to say he shouldn't be hitting a woman, period. His response is classic:
"I don't care! She wanna' act like a man, I'ma treat you like a man!"
Now, her version is that she wasn't trying to skimp on fare, but had sat down to "look for" the money to pay. I don't know why you don't have the money ready, I know I do before I get on the bus. I digress.
She claims that he was the one who was belligerent, and claims she was the one assaulted by the bus driver without provocation.
Either way, the bus driver was fired, and she's apparently suing him for the attack.
In the second video, an elderly white gentleman and a younger black man are verbally assaulting each other. At one point the man gets up and walks to the front of the bus, with the black guy still insulting him. The white guy, not taking **** at this point, throws it back at him. The black guy walks up, says something then starts walking away. The white gentleman (I'm just going to refer to him by his online nickname now, "Vietnam Tom") says something along the lines of, "I see a bunch of hardasses like you everyday! I'll slap the **** out of you!"
The black guy walks back to Tom in a threatening manner. He makes a move at Tom, which looks to be some sort of strike aimed at his midsection. In an instant, Tom is on the guy, pummeling him with his fists and even slamming his head against the seat. The hardass is suddenly crying and begging not to be beaten anymore, and Tom is kicked off the bus by the driver.
-----
In both instances, I would say no party is "right" in this, other than in self-defense. You might be able to make a case that the female attacking the bus driver didn't warrant an uppercut, but I would remind you the bus was in motion. Had the bus driver attempted to defend himself and swerved, he could have caused an accident. Tom's case was pure self-defense: he'd just been attacked by a man who admits he was drunk at the time, and he defended himself. Plus, let's face it: the guy was a Vietnam vet...he's dealt with his fair share of **** in life!
So the question of the day: would you ever consider these people who defended themselves at fault for doing so? I don't think I could bring myself to do so...hell, in one instance there was a very real threat to public safety! I mean...he's driving a ****ing bus!
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If somebody attacks you and you try to defend yourself in response, there needs to be some proportionality between the attack and the defense. For example, if a guy slaps you and in response you pull out your gun and shoot him, then your so-called 'defense' is ridiculously disproportionate to the original attack.
In the two examples you have given I personally do not think that the defense was disproportionate to the original attack / provocation.
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As for Vietnam Tom/Epic Beard Man, considering that the video got him internet popularity, a lot of support, and even a B-movie made about him, I think he made the right choice.
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Technically, he uppercut the woman who "only" slapped him, as spitting doesn't do anything except disrespect. Some people will say he over-reacted, circumstances don't matter. On the other hand, she could have killed someone, by making the buss run over them. This makes me think of airplane pilots who take guns on aircrafts to save the crew by shooting the terrorist.
I don't know if she deserved that punch, but I am happy he punched her.
This attitude is what's perpetuating the woman's place in society. They're still underpaid and overlooked for promotions because we still look at them as something to be protected. Women want to be treated as equals, and it can't be halfsies. As noble as your statement sounds, it's doing them a disservice.
To the OP: Yes, self defense is justifiable as long as the response is proportionate. The law already does a good job of defining what self defense is, and take note that "self defense" stops if you have the opportunity to flee the altercation but do not. In the case of the old man, I think he did go a bit too far. When the kid started begging, he should have got up and left.
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I am so happy others see it like I do. I was taught to respect women, but they can cross that line too.
Until we start treating people how they treat others, there will always be those who feel they can step on others. Both of the people got what was coming to them. I am happy to see people actually standing up to the bullies and those who feel they can do as they wish and screw everyone else. Maybe if enough people start standing up for themselves, the laws will reflect the wants of those who are tired of being spit on, slapped and just bullied all together.
The best way to deal with a bully, loud mouth is not to walk away, that just gives them more power over you. Stand your ground.
I was wondering the same thing.
Watching the video makes it abundantly clear that neither of them were gentlemen.
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The video doesn't show the beginning of the altercation; my recollection from the first time it made its rounds on the internet is that Epic Beard Guy basically started it (though as you can see, it was clearly a "takes two to tango" situation throughout).
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To be fair, she was slapping someone driving what could easily become a box of death for anything nearby.
Her actions endangered a street full of pedestrians, other drivers, and everyone sitting on the bus. His reaction only appears extreme if you don't take this into account.
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That's why she should get the book thrown at her, not why he shouldn't.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Look, I see where you're both coming from, and I'm not trying to outright excuse the driver, but this is where my train of thought is going for now:
A bus driver is in some position of authority while he is driving his bus. He is in charge of the safety and well being of his passengers, and he is liable for any damage his bus would cause. If someone within the bus threatens that safety, he has the authority to remove that person from the bus.
I can't watch the video here at work; I've seen it once before but my memory isn't that clear. I think I remember him telling her to get off the bus after he stops. If she refuses to obey that authority, what course is left other than to physically remove her from the bus?
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
He could call the cops. I don't believe there was an immediate threat that forced him to act, if she had a weapon it would have been a different matter.
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Watch the video again when you can. It's not a driver attempting to physically remove a passenger from the bus. It's a driver attacking a passenger. He's out of control.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
People are *******s. That guy on the bus that hit that woman is a piece of **** and deserves to have someone of disproportionate size, the likeness of him compared to that woman, hit him in the same way. The woman assumed she wasn’t going to get hit, and she acted a fool. That’s on her for being a bad person. Getting assaulted like that is not on her imo. It’s on that guy. I liken it to a child annoying an adult and the adult smashing the kids with a closed fist punch (child in reference to physical size, and nothing else). Simply unacceptable.
I know the damage I can do to someone with a single punch. Given my relatively high strength, I am obligated to take it into account in situations like this unless I simply don’t care how much a hurt someone else. Fortunately I do care how much I might hurt other people. No amount of frustration could send my fist into the face of a woman at high velocity. I’m too worried about how much it would hurt her, or anyone else. It’s has to be self defense.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
Well he was a vietnam vet, he probably fought people smaller than him in the war all the time who were experts at fighting. You can't just assume you're in no threat because you're bigger than the other guy. I mean if you met a guy a night and you proceeded to throw punches at you you're not going to defence you self with closes fists?? Because you're bigger?
Spitting on someone in all cultures is one of the lowest things you can do, and if you've ever been spit on you remember it. It's not just the slap, it's both in conjunction that makes the woman the problem. The man attacking her is also equally problematic, and he is a public servant that has a place to put up with such people.
Frankly, the woman was naive about people and immature for her age. And this is where women need to be careful about putting themselves into purposely dangerous situations. This isn't your boyfriend that wants to maintain good relations with you because he wants and is concerned about your feelings and gets sex, it's a random stranger that is controlling a very large bus that also be used to hurt many people if it escalates. They're equally highly irresponsible and selfish to the other people in a closed quarters situation. Ever watch Speed? Yea that's a bus movie, about now screwing around on a bus without Sandra Bullock.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
I have watched it 3 times. After he punches her hes trying to get her out the door and she is fighting him the whole time. She falls to the ground and hes trying to get her off the bus.