Couple of SB questions. How do you guys feel about Duress vs. Appetite vs Slaughter Games? Secondly, vs. Bant Hexproof is it worth SB 1-2 Barter's? Lastly, I know enchantments are our blind spot (besides Vraska), so is it more efficient to SB a 2nd Decay or perhaps Golgari charm? (Both are versatile and perform more than one function). Thanks in advance!
Against agro, if their isn't a hellrider type threat on board, you usually just want to slam sire if you have any reasonable board presence. Aggro is something you REALLY want to put in top deck mode while you have a 6/4 Demon on board.
Game 1, sure. I think I'm siding these guys out game 2-3 simply because of the fact that it costs 6 mana.
Couple of SB questions. How do you guys feel about Duress vs. Appetite vs Slaughter Games? Secondly, vs. Bant Hexproof is it worth SB 1-2 Barter's? Lastly, I know enchantments are our blind spot (besides Vraska), so is it more efficient to SB a 2nd Decay or perhaps Golgari charm? (Both are versatile and perform more than one function). Thanks in advance!
Appetite is where it's at now. With Sire you no longer fear revelation and ripping obzedat or unburial rites or angel of serenity or their sire or assemble or whatever is clutch.
Slaughter games is too hit or miss I think appetite is just better right now.
Barter's may be helpful but room is tight. 3 lillianas and bonfires are helpful and you can always kill the enchants with decay and we always have blockers. Also you can always kill the voice of resurgence and token with classic removal, geist is the only problem. I replaced my barter with a golgari charm because...
We need something to deal with deadbridge chant and/or assemble the legion. Super dead to assemble. Put in golgari charm as a hedge and it's also the nuts vs aristocrats. 2 Vraska and 1 golgari charm is probably good enough vs enchants that might pop up.
That being said I would still like a 1 of barter in blood somewhere.
Most the lists I'm seeing have 2 mizzium mortars among other removals. I tested this yesterday and it is really just embarassing and miserable to have in hand in most instances.
I disagree. While the other removal spells you cite are good in some ways, Mizzium Mortars is really good in quite a few cases. If you need to deal 4 to a creature (hello, Restoration Angel, Sire of Insanity, Loxodon Smiter, Aurelia the Warleader, to name just a few), you've got it. A 2cc quick answer to a mana dork, you've got it. A mid to late game board wipe, you've got it.
I still think Duress is solid. You can never have too many answers to Revelation or counters or Assemble the Legion.
It really depends on what you want to hate on. AfB seems to hate on Bant and Junk almost exclusively, while Duress hates on random U/x control lists and Jund as well in some cases.
I disagree. While the other removal spells you cite are good in some ways, Mizzium Mortars is really good in quite a few cases. If you need to deal 4 to a creature (hello, Restoration Angel, Sire of Insanity, Loxodon Smiter, Aurelia the Warleader, to name just a few), you've got it. A 2cc quick answer to a mana dork, you've got it. A mid to late game board wipe, you've got it.
Well dreadbore hits all those creatures and also PWs and is still sorcery and it doesnt do 4 to your face killing a reckoner against r/g aggro which is relevant. That's my main issue with mortars it is the nonbo against reckoner and a lot of the bant hexproof stuff. Taking 4 to kill a reckoner is potentially game changing against aggro.
Also doesn't do squat to wurm tokens from bant flash so there's that. It won't help against sire more than something else because it's not instant. Similarly to resto angel it's gonna still do it's damage.
Maybe 4 bonfires and 1 mortars is better? shrug idk.
I think Jund needs to transition to more instant speed threats. With the decline of Esper Control (and the rise of Sire of Insanity to combat Esper Control), I am more concerned about the aggro and midrange matchups. I have lost to Progenitor Mimic Bant and super aggressive decks in the past couple of weeks (and my own misplays, which makes me angry).
I want to find room for a 2nd Vraska the Unseen, since Reid runs 2x, and everyone seems to be on that card. Not sure what to cut. I don't really like playing with Liliana of the Veil, and I have a feeling that Barter in Blood is better vs. Bant Auras than anything else we have in the deck. I tested out Gaze of Granite, and it underperformed.
Seems way, way worse than Sire of Insanity.
And its not like control hate is even necessary right now.
In other news, I just played against Naya for 4 hours straight and won 20% of the games... ****.
Naya Midrange? Aggro? Were they killing you with one or two guys or a whole team? How were they able to efficiently deal with your threats given that their removal package is worse than ours?
If you could answer the above questions it should help us find where you went wrong.
What tends to give you trouble here? I would think our removal and Thragtusk would give us the edge.
No, that wasn't normal at all, I normally think I win a bit more than 50% there, its just a variance happens kinda thing.
Really just was going to show that you need a lot of testing to be sure a matchup is really bad, or whatever, because that is obviously not a normal win % but had that been the first time I'd played the matchup I might think it was awful.
Did anyone see Adrian Sullivan's article in which he discussed Adam Jansen's PTQ-winning Jund list? He played two Rakdos Keyrune main and Sullivan praised the decision.
He also played the usual one Lily main and two side but after the tournament said he felt one of the sb Lilys should be a Barter In Blood.
Slaughter games does not affect the board and will only occasionally affect their hand. Therefore, more times than not, it will be negative card advantage. It isn't worth it.
Why does this deck play Ground Seal over Deathrite Shaman? I remember when two DS main and one SB was standard. Seems like DS would be better in more MUs than Ground Seal.
Why does this deck play Ground Seal over Deathrite Shaman? I remember when two DS main and one SB was standard. Seems like DS would be better in more MUs than Ground Seal.
Cause there are a lot of matchups where DRS is a dead card and you would at least get the "Draw a Card" aspect of Ground Seal. Also, sometimes the decks that play graveyard stuff side it out (or don't draw it), in that case... again, you still draw a card.
This is not the reason it's not being commonly played anymore, since that has always been its problem and it saw play before.
It's down to it not being as needed vs Revelation as we now have Sire of Insanity to hose that. I still like it vs Junk Rites gutting their Angels of Serenity however. The card exists to remove cards Jund can't beat before they're cast.
Yes, that is the reason. Reid Duke took it out of his decklist before Sire of Insanity. There aren't enough cards in the game that are worth negative card advantage in order to prevent happening. For example, it is not worth it to take negative card advantage to remove one of Junk Rites many good cards.
Esper is the one deck where it is probably worth it, meaning that it's hard to justify a sideboard slot against it.
Yes, that is the reason. Reid Duke took it out of his decklist before Sire of Insanity. There aren't enough cards in the game that are worth negative card advantage in order to prevent happening. For example, it is not worth it to take negative card advantage to remove one of Junk Rites many good cards.
Esper is the one deck where it is probably worth it, meaning that it's hard to justify a sideboard slot against it.
You just basically echoed what he said. Esper isn't widely played at the moment, and other decks no longer rely heavily on Spinx's Revelation, which means there's not much reason to board SG. Sire of Insanity works more like Rakdos's Return with upside of migitating Revelations. But you can't really compare Sire and SG since Sire is a good maindeck card whereas SG is strictly a sideboard card.
SG is often a -1 for you, but that's not the reason it's no longer played. SG has seen play in the past, and it might become relevant in the future, but cards don't suddenly stop being good on their own. It just means there's a change in the metagame.
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So how is everyone feeling about arbor elf vs keyrune now that we are a few weeks into DGM? Also, how has everyone's testing been thus far with Liliana (in terms of copies in MD/SB) ?
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Game 1, sure. I think I'm siding these guys out game 2-3 simply because of the fact that it costs 6 mana.
Appetite is where it's at now. With Sire you no longer fear revelation and ripping obzedat or unburial rites or angel of serenity or their sire or assemble or whatever is clutch.
Slaughter games is too hit or miss I think appetite is just better right now.
Barter's may be helpful but room is tight. 3 lillianas and bonfires are helpful and you can always kill the enchants with decay and we always have blockers. Also you can always kill the voice of resurgence and token with classic removal, geist is the only problem. I replaced my barter with a golgari charm because...
We need something to deal with deadbridge chant and/or assemble the legion. Super dead to assemble. Put in golgari charm as a hedge and it's also the nuts vs aristocrats. 2 Vraska and 1 golgari charm is probably good enough vs enchants that might pop up.
That being said I would still like a 1 of barter in blood somewhere.
I disagree. While the other removal spells you cite are good in some ways, Mizzium Mortars is really good in quite a few cases. If you need to deal 4 to a creature (hello, Restoration Angel, Sire of Insanity, Loxodon Smiter, Aurelia the Warleader, to name just a few), you've got it. A 2cc quick answer to a mana dork, you've got it. A mid to late game board wipe, you've got it.
It really depends on what you want to hate on. AfB seems to hate on Bant and Junk almost exclusively, while Duress hates on random U/x control lists and Jund as well in some cases.
Well dreadbore hits all those creatures and also PWs and is still sorcery and it doesnt do 4 to your face killing a reckoner against r/g aggro which is relevant. That's my main issue with mortars it is the nonbo against reckoner and a lot of the bant hexproof stuff. Taking 4 to kill a reckoner is potentially game changing against aggro.
Also doesn't do squat to wurm tokens from bant flash so there's that. It won't help against sire more than something else because it's not instant. Similarly to resto angel it's gonna still do it's damage.
Maybe 4 bonfires and 1 mortars is better? shrug idk.
this is a fair assessment actually. I may drop one but I may just keep it.
Bonfire and Liliana? Abrupt decay to kill the enchantment?
List:
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Thragtusk
3 Olivia Voldaren
2 Sire of Insanity
4 Farseek
1 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Putrefy
3 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Ground Seal
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Forest
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rootbound Crag
3 Woodland Cemetery
2 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Barter in Blood
1 Tragic Slip
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Ground Seal
2 Slaughter Games
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Deadbridge Chant
2 Appetite for Brains
Not sure if Duress or Appetite for Brains is better, since I am currently more concerned with Supreme Verdict and Jace, Memory Adept vs. Control; Acidic Slime, Unburial Rites, and Angel of Serenity vs. Junk Rites. Appetite for Brains is actually a really potent threat in the sideboard vs. the mirror.
I want to find room for a 2nd Vraska the Unseen, since Reid runs 2x, and everyone seems to be on that card. Not sure what to cut. I don't really like playing with Liliana of the Veil, and I have a feeling that Barter in Blood is better vs. Bant Auras than anything else we have in the deck. I tested out Gaze of Granite, and it underperformed.
And its not like control hate is even necessary right now.
In other news, I just played against Naya for 4 hours straight and won 20% of the games... ****.
What tends to give you trouble here? I would think our removal and Thragtusk would give us the edge.
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Naya Midrange? Aggro? Were they killing you with one or two guys or a whole team? How were they able to efficiently deal with your threats given that their removal package is worse than ours?
If you could answer the above questions it should help us find where you went wrong.
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No, that wasn't normal at all, I normally think I win a bit more than 50% there, its just a variance happens kinda thing.
Really just was going to show that you need a lot of testing to be sure a matchup is really bad, or whatever, because that is obviously not a normal win % but had that been the first time I'd played the matchup I might think it was awful.
He also played the usual one Lily main and two side but after the tournament said he felt one of the sb Lilys should be a Barter In Blood.
Lastly, why doesn't anyone play Slaughter Games anymore?
Cause there are a lot of matchups where DRS is a dead card and you would at least get the "Draw a Card" aspect of Ground Seal. Also, sometimes the decks that play graveyard stuff side it out (or don't draw it), in that case... again, you still draw a card.
Yes, that is the reason. Reid Duke took it out of his decklist before Sire of Insanity. There aren't enough cards in the game that are worth negative card advantage in order to prevent happening. For example, it is not worth it to take negative card advantage to remove one of Junk Rites many good cards.
Esper is the one deck where it is probably worth it, meaning that it's hard to justify a sideboard slot against it.
You just basically echoed what he said. Esper isn't widely played at the moment, and other decks no longer rely heavily on Spinx's Revelation, which means there's not much reason to board SG. Sire of Insanity works more like Rakdos's Return with upside of migitating Revelations. But you can't really compare Sire and SG since Sire is a good maindeck card whereas SG is strictly a sideboard card.
SG is often a -1 for you, but that's not the reason it's no longer played. SG has seen play in the past, and it might become relevant in the future, but cards don't suddenly stop being good on their own. It just means there's a change in the metagame.
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