Having an unstoppable, inevitable win-con sounds like it might be pretty good for control decks. No one can counter a land drop, and you also can't Detention Sphere or O-Ring it.
Keep in mind that Nephalia Drownyard, as the win-condition for Esper, can take quite a while to whittle a deck down for the win. My bet is that if this new card will ever have a home, it will be in control decks.
A not too christmas-land scenario would be if you're in a control vs. control match up (and those can go really long), this new card provides a pretty much unbeatable win-con, save for land-hate, which is fairly non-existent and will probably only come in from the SB anyway. Same goes for Bant Control mirrors.
Nevertheless, it is still a lot of hoops to jump through.
I kind of disagree on this point. Drownyard runs in control decks because it totals four mana per turn. Maze's end's cost is much more obtrusive to it being useful than people might think.
You play Maze's end and it comes in tapped, earliest you can use it for anything but mana is turn 4.
If you use it to fetch lands you spend 5 land worth of mana that you can't use to play your responses.
If you use it to fetch lands you play another land in tapped, so you can only use it every other turn.
You are effectively alternating between a turn of responses and fetching lands.
Running Maze's End effectively means running at least 10 of your lands as guildgates, if you want to win without using it 10 times you probably need to up that number.
Guildgates come in tapped and cannot be used to play responses.
Maze's end would be really dangerous for control, far too slow.
On the other hand, in modern ramp with 10 gates, a primeval titan or two and a wolf run it could be a backup condition AGAINST control.
I kind of disagree on this point. Drownyard runs in control decks because it totals four mana per turn. Maze's end's cost is much more obtrusive to it being useful than people might think.
You play Maze's end and it comes in tapped, earliest you can use it for anything but mana is turn 4.
If you use it to fetch lands you spend 5 land worth of mana that you can't use to play your responses.
If you use it to fetch lands you play another land in tapped, so you can only use it every other turn.
You are effectively alternating between a turn of responses and fetching lands.
Running Maze's End effectively means running at least 10 of your lands as guildgates, if you want to win without using it 10 times you probably need to up that number.
Guildgates come in tapped and cannot be used to play responses.
Maze's end would be really dangerous for control, far too slow.
On the other hand, in modern ramp with 10 gates, a primeval titan or two and a wolf run it could be a backup condition AGAINST control.
You make some good points. But keep in mind that it still takes 4 lands to mill three cards with Drownyard! Thus, you aren't going to be using Drownyard (typically) for anything but mana on turn four as well, so in that regard the two cards are no different. Against most decks, they are typically both not early game activations.
For arguments sake, though, lets say these both are playable on turn four (ie untapped, no need to answer threats by the end of opponents turn). They both use up four lands at the opponent's EOT to activate (no way is it good to activate either of them earlier in the turn because of possible threats). You then start your turn and untap. What do you end up with?
Drownyard: You've just milled opponent three cards and you have four untapped lands on the battlefield.
Maze's End: it went to your hand and you have four untapped lands on the battlefield.
The next turn (turn 5) you'd probably only play Maze's End again if you had no other land to play, but that has nothing to do with Maze's End. That is a tempo issue not a mana issue. And you're already 1/11th of the way to victory so you probably can afford some time.
So, other things being equal (and specifically having the same amount of mana on the battlefield when you next untap on turn 5, as I've show), the big difference between the two is that using Downyarad on turn 4 puts you at about 1/16th the way to winning vs the 1/11th of Maze's End.
Edit: Just want to be clear here. I'm not saying it's great. It's still a lot of hoops to jump through because it comes into play tapped with other tapped lands in the deck. I'm just trying to make the argument for how it would work, if at all. Its not as bad as people are saying. They just need to make one or two other worthwhile gate-synergy cards and this could be plenty viable.
I kind of disagree on this point. Drownyard runs in control decks because it totals four mana per turn. Maze's end's cost is much more obtrusive to it being useful than people might think.
You play Maze's end and it comes in tapped, earliest you can use it for anything but mana is turn 4.
If you use it to fetch lands you spend 5 land worth of mana that you can't use to play your responses.
If you use it to fetch lands you play another land in tapped, so you can only use it every other turn.
You are effectively alternating between a turn of responses and fetching lands.
Running Maze's End effectively means running at least 10 of your lands as guildgates, if you want to win without using it 10 times you probably need to up that number.
Guildgates come in tapped and cannot be used to play responses.
Maze's end would be really dangerous for control, far too slow.
On the other hand, in modern ramp with 10 gates, a primeval titan or two and a wolf run it could be a backup condition AGAINST control.
It could also work if they make an amulet of vigor reprint. Which i'm really hoping for... (well, REALLY hoping for a functional reprint)
The deck that I can see this seeing play in is Battle of Wits as an alternate win-con. The deck only really works when you have the full 7-8 sets, so we'll see if BoW is a reasonably good deck. But with 0 LD in the format, running a 1x of each gate + Maze's End will give you the opportunity to grind the opponent out. It's honestly the only deck that MIGHT be able to support such a strategy. Hopefully someone gets to include / break it!
At the very least, it will make FNM with battle of wits even better!
lol, did you never play it back ages ago? (was a very fun deck) - most ironic part was that you could make the argument that the deck was illegal in paper form because you couldn't sufficiently randomize it in the time period allotted
Anyway, the format is too aggro right now, but if it slows down a bit there's the outside chance it will be a good deck, and this would seem to be a good 11 card inclusion in the deck (assuming it's 4-5 colors)
Just wondering, does RAL's (the new PW) +1 make this land any more playable? You can untap and use it the turn you play it, maybe be able to win by turn 14-15 instead of 20+?
Just thinking....
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Currently Playing: GUBFog MillBUG BURMostly Black Control (Grixis)RUB
About all the complaining with the DFC in INNISTRAD...
Do you need to pay 3 and tap this to win the game? Or does it just need to be on the field when you have 10 gates?
Either way the card will see no play, it's one of the most difficult and stifiling alt win cons ever printed. You need to stuff your deck with a terrible manabase in order to pull it off.
Just wondering, does RAL's (the new PW) +1 make this land any more playable? You can untap and use it the turn you play it, maybe be able to win by turn 14-15 instead of 20+?
Just thinking....
Ral does help it, but it doesn't help Ral, you're still going to need some way to defend him to keep that going.
cool land. makes me wish there were a cool new 5 color ravnican legend to do some flavorful ravnican edh gating, yknow?
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The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
So at this point, I've seen two different versions of the non-prerelease promo Maze's End. One of them has the correct wording of "owner's hand," whereas the other version has the incorrect wording of "your hand." Why are there two different versions of the card?
In my attachments, the one on the left has the correct wording.
Im personally interested in this card, there are a few other ways to get gates into play, such as Cloudshift, Restoration Angel, Ghostly Flicker, and Deadeye Navigator all in conjunction witb Gatecreeper Vine. As far as worrying about Nephalia Drownyard milling gates, just run Memory's Journey or Creeping Reniassance. This deck wants Urban Evolution too.
Good idea Darksteel_Eye, I think that using flicker and ETB effects is the way to go with the Maze's End deck. Either that, or a deck based around making Gatecreeper tokens with Gatecreeper Vine --> Cackling Counterpart --> Growing Ranks --> Progenitor Mimic idea...
As far as the flicker/ETB idea goes, here is my suggestion:
This is a Maze's End deck that relies on flickering and ETB spells/abilities to abuse the nice synergy between the ETB cards in the deck (not just Gatecreeper Vine ), ETB-triggers that exist on other cards, Evolve as an ETB checker (abusable with Hold the Gates ), and sometimes even lifegain from Trostani, Selesnya's Voice (abused with flickering and Hold the Gates).
The synergies can fix you with Gates, card draw, Evolve and sometimes even lifegain. Sometimes many or all at once
Flickering also serves as a "ghost blocking" tactic which suits the deck's reliance of surviving for the first 5-6 turns before Hold the Gates gets out and the flicker/ETB machine can really kick into gear.
The main tools for survival are the two best one-mana spells to prevent early-game aggro 1-for-1 permanently (instead of just delaying for a turn like Fog would): Righteous Blow and Sensory Deprivation .
The second line of fast aggro defense are the 1-drop Evolve creatures, though some of these should be saved until the flickering gets started (as they evolve almost every time, due to high toughness guys and/or "hold the gates"- boosted toughness).
Opal Lake Gatekeepers , Mentor of the Meek and Beck / Call ensures multiple card draw while sometimes even evolving another creature when they are flickered,and Gatecreeper Vine will get you more gates while they also get you card draw via Mentor and can evolve another creature too.The synergy can be great in this deck.
When you get to Conjurer's Closet the flickering will never end, and your machine of really good ETB synergi will be unstoppable at that point.
Rough archetype tactics:
Vs fast aggro: Try to survive by using all the 1-mana defensive resources you have, board in extra Righteous Blow and Sensory Deprivation, and take out the most expensive stuff in Trostani, Conjurers Closet and Door to Nothingness .
Vs control w/board wipes: Board out all the 1-mana aggrodefense spells, board in 3 Memory's Journey and Azorius Charm . Don't overextend and hope that the instant-speed flickering will do enough to negate the effects of potential boardwipes.
The sideboard is not really that honed yet, it would depent on your local metagame, so we should focus on maindeck I think.
Win conditions:
Main wincondition:Flicker to get 10+ gates and win by either Maze's End , or Door to Nothingness , or Crackling Perimeter .
Secondary wincondition: Flicker in all kinds of card draw triggers and Evolve triggers to maintain a full hand, giant evolved creatures and/or guys with very high toughness from Hold the Gates, and win by attacking with Vigilance each turn.
The problem with Urban Evolution is that is it so extremely expensive for a deck full of gates, even with the occational Greenside Watcher untap. You have to basically use an entire turn to draw 3 cards (2 extra cards, the 3rd card is just filtering since Urban Evolution took a slot in your deck)..
I think the flicker / ETB effects will net you a lot more extra card draw than a couple of Urban Evolutions... for a lot cheaper. 1 mana for a card off of a cloudshift of Opal Lake Gatekeepers, or 1 mana for drawing a card off Mentor of the meek when you put someone else out.
With so many ETB guys / effects and flicker spells in the deck, such combos will always be possible in some form or fashion, and a lot earlier than Urban Evolution can be played.
The creatures that fix all this also serve as blockers with HUGE toughness when Hold the Gates is out, which makes them a lot more multi-purpose for the deck's ultimate goal than Urban Evolution i think
So even though the "put out two lands" clause of Urban Evolution seems good, as it gets you slightly faster to your 10 gates-goal, I think that doing something to maintain your board presence / hand size is more key to actually surviving to see that goal. Using all your mana just to drop an additional land is just not efficient enough I think...
After playtesting I'm not convinced that flicker effects are the answer to make this deck work right. I'm leaning towards the defender combo shell and Maze's End for an alt win condition. I scoured the Internet on ideas regarding this deck and there are a lot of variation
So at this point, I've seen two different versions of the non-prerelease promo Maze's End. One of them has the correct wording of "owner's hand," whereas the other version has the incorrect wording of "your hand." Why are there two different versions of the card?
In my attachments, the one on the left has the correct wording.
Have you see any physical cards with the wrong wording?
Have you see any physical cards with the wrong wording?
At this point yes. I've only seen two non-Promo Maze's Ends in person. One had the correct wording, the other did not. My only theory is that it had to be placed on a sheet twice and one of the two was wrong.
At this point yes. I've only seen two non-Promo Maze's Ends in person. One had the correct wording, the other did not. My only theory is that it had to be placed on a sheet twice and one of the two was wrong.
I pulled one from the gate land slot in the booster and it says "owner's"
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Because it's not a gate?
Like, literally, it's a forum where the different guilds have recruitment stalls.
The gates are used to mark guild territory, the forum is a neutral zone.
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Although it'd work nicely with the gate-matters cards at that point.
I kind of disagree on this point. Drownyard runs in control decks because it totals four mana per turn. Maze's end's cost is much more obtrusive to it being useful than people might think.
You play Maze's end and it comes in tapped, earliest you can use it for anything but mana is turn 4.
If you use it to fetch lands you spend 5 land worth of mana that you can't use to play your responses.
If you use it to fetch lands you play another land in tapped, so you can only use it every other turn.
You are effectively alternating between a turn of responses and fetching lands.
Running Maze's End effectively means running at least 10 of your lands as guildgates, if you want to win without using it 10 times you probably need to up that number.
Guildgates come in tapped and cannot be used to play responses.
Maze's end would be really dangerous for control, far too slow.
On the other hand, in modern ramp with 10 gates, a primeval titan or two and a wolf run it could be a backup condition AGAINST control.
You make some good points. But keep in mind that it still takes 4 lands to mill three cards with Drownyard! Thus, you aren't going to be using Drownyard (typically) for anything but mana on turn four as well, so in that regard the two cards are no different. Against most decks, they are typically both not early game activations.
For arguments sake, though, lets say these both are playable on turn four (ie untapped, no need to answer threats by the end of opponents turn). They both use up four lands at the opponent's EOT to activate (no way is it good to activate either of them earlier in the turn because of possible threats). You then start your turn and untap. What do you end up with?
Drownyard: You've just milled opponent three cards and you have four untapped lands on the battlefield.
Maze's End: it went to your hand and you have four untapped lands on the battlefield.
The next turn (turn 5) you'd probably only play Maze's End again if you had no other land to play, but that has nothing to do with Maze's End. That is a tempo issue not a mana issue. And you're already 1/11th of the way to victory so you probably can afford some time.
So, other things being equal (and specifically having the same amount of mana on the battlefield when you next untap on turn 5, as I've show), the big difference between the two is that using Downyarad on turn 4 puts you at about 1/16th the way to winning vs the 1/11th of Maze's End.
Edit: Just want to be clear here. I'm not saying it's great. It's still a lot of hoops to jump through because it comes into play tapped with other tapped lands in the deck. I'm just trying to make the argument for how it would work, if at all. Its not as bad as people are saying. They just need to make one or two other worthwhile gate-synergy cards and this could be plenty viable.
—Karn, silver golem
It could also work if they make an amulet of vigor reprint. Which i'm really hoping for... (well, REALLY hoping for a functional reprint)
...You have access to ten gates, that means 4 gates per color. If you can't cast Memory's Journey, Treasured Find, or a Psychic Spiral you are successfully doing this wrong.
I wondered this a while back. Was an answer found?
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At the very least, it will make FNM with battle of wits even better!
Edric | Skithiryx | Merieke | Talrand
--------------------------
Well except for pauper EDH
Garruk's Packleader | Inkfathom Witch | Gelectrode | Sigil Captain | Glider Barin | Sludge Strider | Paragon of the Ameshsa
lol, did you never play it back ages ago? (was a very fun deck) - most ironic part was that you could make the argument that the deck was illegal in paper form because you couldn't sufficiently randomize it in the time period allotted
Anyway, the format is too aggro right now, but if it slows down a bit there's the outside chance it will be a good deck, and this would seem to be a good 11 card inclusion in the deck (assuming it's 4-5 colors)
Edric | Skithiryx | Merieke | Talrand
--------------------------
Well except for pauper EDH
Garruk's Packleader | Inkfathom Witch | Gelectrode | Sigil Captain | Glider Barin | Sludge Strider | Paragon of the Ameshsa
Just thinking....
GUBFog MillBUG
BURMostly Black Control (Grixis)RUB
About all the complaining with the DFC in INNISTRAD...
Either way the card will see no play, it's one of the most difficult and stifiling alt win cons ever printed. You need to stuff your deck with a terrible manabase in order to pull it off.
Ral does help it, but it doesn't help Ral, you're still going to need some way to defend him to keep that going.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
In my attachments, the one on the left has the correct wording.
Heroes and Villains Comics and Games
Watch "The Giant Sharkgate Chronicles"
Watch "Eating Made Easy"
As far as the flicker/ETB idea goes, here is my suggestion:
3 Azorius Guildgate
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Golgari Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Maze's End
1 Orzhov Guildgate
1 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
Creature (20)
3 Cloudfin Raptor
3 Experiment One
4 Gatecreeper Vine
3 Greenside Watcher
2 Mentor of the Meek
2 Opal Lake Gatekeepers
2 Sunspire Gatekeepers
1 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 Cloudshift
3 Ghostly Flicker
2 Righteous Blow
Enchantment (8)
1 Crackling Perimeter
4 Hold the Gates
3 Sensory Deprivation
Artifact (1)
1 Conjurer's Closet
1 Door to Nothingness
Sorcery (1)
2 Beck / Call
3 Azorius Charm
1 Cloudshift
1 Ghostly Flicker
3 Memory's Journey
2 Ready / Willing
2 Righteous Blow
1 Sensory Deprivation
2 Legion's Initiative
Extended explanation of deck idea here:
The synergies can fix you with Gates, card draw, Evolve and sometimes even lifegain. Sometimes many or all at once
Flickering also serves as a "ghost blocking" tactic which suits the deck's reliance of surviving for the first 5-6 turns before Hold the Gates gets out and the flicker/ETB machine can really kick into gear.
The main tools for survival are the two best one-mana spells to prevent early-game aggro 1-for-1 permanently (instead of just delaying for a turn like Fog would): Righteous Blow and Sensory Deprivation .
The second line of fast aggro defense are the 1-drop Evolve creatures, though some of these should be saved until the flickering gets started (as they evolve almost every time, due to high toughness guys and/or "hold the gates"- boosted toughness).
Opal Lake Gatekeepers , Mentor of the Meek and Beck / Call ensures multiple card draw while sometimes even evolving another creature when they are flickered,and Gatecreeper Vine will get you more gates while they also get you card draw via Mentor and can evolve another creature too.The synergy can be great in this deck.
When you get to Conjurer's Closet the flickering will never end, and your machine of really good ETB synergi will be unstoppable at that point.
Rough archetype tactics:
Vs control w/board wipes: Board out all the 1-mana aggrodefense spells, board in 3 Memory's Journey and Azorius Charm . Don't overextend and hope that the instant-speed flickering will do enough to negate the effects of potential boardwipes.
The sideboard is not really that honed yet, it would depent on your local metagame, so we should focus on maindeck I think.
Win conditions:
Secondary wincondition: Flicker in all kinds of card draw triggers and Evolve triggers to maintain a full hand, giant evolved creatures and/or guys with very high toughness from Hold the Gates, and win by attacking with Vigilance each turn.
I'm not expecting this to be a reliable wincon, but it will be fun to see if it can work... and how it will adapt to survive aggro.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
I think the flicker / ETB effects will net you a lot more extra card draw than a couple of Urban Evolutions... for a lot cheaper. 1 mana for a card off of a cloudshift of Opal Lake Gatekeepers, or 1 mana for drawing a card off Mentor of the meek when you put someone else out.
Or, for instance how about using 3 mana for a Ghostly Flicker on Opal Lake Gatekeepers and a Gatecreeper Vine, getting you one card and a gate, and then paying two extra mana getting two more cards from Mentor of the Meek?
Even more value than Urban Evolution, and might even trigger Evolve on your Experiment One and/or Cloudfin Raptor and in the odd case, might even get you life via Trostani
With so many ETB guys / effects and flicker spells in the deck, such combos will always be possible in some form or fashion, and a lot earlier than Urban Evolution can be played.
The creatures that fix all this also serve as blockers with HUGE toughness when Hold the Gates is out, which makes them a lot more multi-purpose for the deck's ultimate goal than Urban Evolution i think
So even though the "put out two lands" clause of Urban Evolution seems good, as it gets you slightly faster to your 10 gates-goal, I think that doing something to maintain your board presence / hand size is more key to actually surviving to see that goal. Using all your mana just to drop an additional land is just not efficient enough I think...
Have you see any physical cards with the wrong wording?
At this point yes. I've only seen two non-Promo Maze's Ends in person. One had the correct wording, the other did not. My only theory is that it had to be placed on a sheet twice and one of the two was wrong.
Heroes and Villains Comics and Games
Watch "The Giant Sharkgate Chronicles"
Watch "Eating Made Easy"
I pulled one from the gate land slot in the booster and it says "owner's"