If Deathrite Shaman didn't kill Living End as a deck, I don't see Ooze being that good at it either. If they want to do nothing with their green mana but try and clear out our graveyards - I say let em. Then just wait till they tap out, cycle a few creatures and cascade. Bye bye ooze.
It won't be doing us any good, that's for certain, but I don't see it killing the deck.
I agree that Scavenging Ooze does not mark the death of Living End competitively. However, Scavenging Ooze is substantially more dangerous than Deathrite Shaman. Scavenging Ooze is essentially the illegitimate child of Deathrite and Tarmogoyf; it kills graveyards for life like Shaman while acting as a beater like Goyf. The only upside I see is that I doubt Ooze will be used alongside Goyf (because it competes as a 2-drop and makes Goyf smaller) or Shaman (too much resource competition).
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I'm betting that Ooze will be played in Melira Pod, where my latest list is having severe competition for my graveyard with 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Reveillark, 4 Deathrite Shaman, 1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped, and 1 M14-coming Scavenging Ooze. (Luckily, I've figured out yard priorities--Deathrite and Ooze prioritize opposing yards and bad creatures like Birds of Paradise, Varolz gets the efficient creatures like Qasali Pridemage and redundant Meliras, and E. Wit and Lark get the essential hate bears and combo pieces, especially Murderous Redcap.)
I suspect Ooze decks will have enough green mana open the turn after they untap with it to really bender Living End. You're probably better off trying to catch it before they untap with it, as they're more mana-crimped, but don't count on it with no-Cascade opening hands.
Played a local event last night to a 2-1; beating death cloud and RDW and then losing to UR storm.
I was wondering what the best sideboard/approach is to storm since it seems like it may be coming back (I believe Finkel played it recently at a GP or something?). Game one he killed me on turn 3 with nothing out but an electromancer. I even had a macabre in hand to slow him down exiling 2x manamorphose when he went for past in flames (obv he knew I had it though due to gitaxian probe). This really sucked as I had a great hand - my line was cycle carabid, then cycle wraith+recluce, then fulminator, then cycle deadshot and cascade. T4 I would have 4/5, 4/4, 3/4, 3/4 and he'd be down 2 lands... too bad I never even got a t3.
I sideboarded in a dismember, 3x leyline of void and 2x leyline of sanctity, mulled to 4 without hitting either leyline (the hands were mostly bad anyways, so it wasn't strictly fishing for leylines).
Then in g2 he goes 4 turns without doing anything... I eventually topdeck a void and play it, he just goes off anyways in 2 turns echoing truth on the leyline
But really it was the echoing truths that made me wonder if leylines are even that effective here... I'm guessing in normal games you t0 the void, and it slows him down enough that you go about your business and kill him t4/5
OK, tried out some games against Scavenging Ooze in Twin Pod (probably one of its more nightmarish homes--it's got mana ramp and reliable Ooze search--luckily, it doesn't have 4 Deathrite Shamans as buddies like in Melira Pod). Ooze gets LOL Beast Withined, but you need to be fast or it sucks up at least one buddy (Living End has plowed through getting 1 guy out of 6 sucked up, though). The troublesome part is that Twin Pod can get together a good enough aggro or combo game that you may be stuck using Living End as a Wrath (and that's how you get Ooze off the board the first time).
Just keep in mind: mana spent on Scavenging Ooze is mana not spent toward assembling a combo. I am of the opinion that Pod decks' use of Ooze will allow us to resolve more Slaughter Games.
Played a local event last night to a 2-1; beating death cloud and RDW and then losing to UR storm.
I was wondering what the best sideboard/approach is to storm since it seems like it may be coming back (I believe Finkel played it recently at a GP or something?). Game one he killed me on turn 3 with nothing out but an electromancer. I even had a macabre in hand to slow him down exiling 2x manamorphose when he went for past in flames (obv he knew I had it though due to gitaxian probe). This really sucked as I had a great hand - my line was cycle carabid, then cycle wraith+recluce, then fulminator, then cycle deadshot and cascade. T4 I would have 4/5, 4/4, 3/4, 3/4 and he'd be down 2 lands... too bad I never even got a t3.
I sideboarded in a dismember, 3x leyline of void and 2x leyline of sanctity, mulled to 4 without hitting either leyline (the hands were mostly bad anyways, so it wasn't strictly fishing for leylines).
Then in g2 he goes 4 turns without doing anything... I eventually topdeck a void and play it, he just goes off anyways in 2 turns echoing truth on the leyline
But really it was the echoing truths that made me wonder if leylines are even that effective here... I'm guessing in normal games you t0 the void, and it slows him down enough that you go about your business and kill him t4/5
I still run two Mindbreak Traps Sideboard. Deals with Pyromancer's Ascension and Storm. Lately Storm hasn't been running Grapeshots, instead opting for Empty the Warrens - which is good for us.
I went 5th place ( 2-0-2 )in a small local tournament... I was pissed because I got there late and I couldn't check what the players were playing. I went against 3 UWR control and 1 Boggle auras.dec. I played 2 ricochet traps in the 75(both in the side) and it only showed up in the UWR match I won... I think that control deck really has the upper hand in us, any tips?
(my deck doesn't have the fetch and shocks, thus, the pale recluses. but I made a good mana base with scar lands and never got mana screwed)
I went 5th place ( 2-0-2 )in a small local tournament... I was pissed because I got there late and I couldn't check what the players were playing. I went against 3 UWR control and 1 Boggle auras.dec. I played 2 ricochet traps in the 75(both in the side) and it only showed up in the UWR match I won... I think that control deck really has the upper hand in us, any tips?
(my deck doesn't have the fetch and shocks, thus, the pale recluses. but I made a good mana base with scar lands and never got mana screwed)
Beating control is a matter of what tools you have, and how you play. Since I don't have your decklist, I'll just focus on the "how you play".
While technically, Living End is a combo deck, this is NOT the kind of combo you go balls-to-the-wall to fire as quick as possible (excluding dire circumstances). If you go turn 3 cascade into 2 blue mana open, you can expect to be blown out. Since control itself generally doesn't pose much of a threat early on, use that to your advantage. Cycle 1-2 guys a turn, use your Land D to pressure them until you can start hardcasting your guys (the look on the control player's face as you declare your hardcast of Pale Recluse or Jungle Weaver is priceless), and then if they ever tap out, that's when you hit them with The End.
Interestingly enough, Living End almost plays like a control deck itself by wiping the board at will and depleting your opponent's resources. It's the really quick aggro matches when you really want to fire off the End turn 4-5 at the latest, all other matchups generally require you to go a bit slower to succeed.
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xMage: Jankmaster Commander - Now Playing WUBSen Triplets - "If you shake my hand, better count your fingersBUWRHomura, Human AscendantRRGBorborygmos EnragedGRURMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
Commander - Still Brewing BRGGyrus, Waker of CorpsesGRBURSaheeli, the GiftedRUWRJor Kadeen, the PrevailerRW
Beating control is a matter of what tools you have, and how you play. Since I don't have your decklist, I'll just focus on the "how you play".
While technically, Living End is a combo deck, this is NOT the kind of combo you go balls-to-the-wall to fire as quick as possible (excluding dire circumstances). If you go turn 3 cascade into 2 blue mana open, you can expect to be blown out. Since control itself generally doesn't pose much of a threat early on, use that to your advantage. Cycle 1-2 guys a turn, use your Land D to pressure them until you can start hardcasting your guys (the look on the control player's face as you declare your hardcast of Pale Recluse or Jungle Weaver is priceless), and then if they ever tap out, that's when you hit them with The End.
Interestingly enough, Living End almost plays like a control deck itself by wiping the board at will and depleting your opponent's resources. It's the really quick aggro matches when you really want to fire off the End turn 4-5 at the latest, all other matchups generally require you to go a bit slower to succeed.
To add to this, it's also a great idea to suspend a Living End from your hand if you have one. This will essentially let you cast it for free (see also: without tapping lands that turn) a few turns down the road, then force them to counter it so you can cascade more comfortably. Similarly, Violent Outburst end of turn into a counter, then cascade one more once your turn rolls around.
URGImperial AnimarGRU BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB WURNarset NostalgicRUW UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU UBlue BraidsU GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
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I have such a rough matchup against R/G Tron (My own loaner deck) that it isn't even funny.
You guys running Slaughter Games for them? What do you target?
I got blown out by MBC last FNM. Sadistic Sacrament hurts bad. He was running the usual hand disruption + sacrament and Desecration Demons and Bloodgift Demons + Mutilate.
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My Modern decks: B/R/G Living End G/R/B G/R Tron R/G U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
I do want to run the complete manabase(with the Pale Recluse included) but I'm still saving up for that, and ran into no mana issues.
The thing is, the suspending living end is a nice play and all, but experienced players know what you're trying to do, and so they get three turn to prepare for that. And he can simply let you living end(if it's in your turn) and Supreme Verdict in his.(I suffered from this)
And I hardcasted Jungle Weaver once, just to get it Path'd.
I've made most of the decks plays, and have a good experience with it, it's my favorite deck, I'm just stating that UWR control is not on most top 8 lists for nothing, it's a strong deck that we need to think how to deal with.
ricochet trap is the all star vs control. The only sad thing with it is if they cryptic with counter/bounce - but if they're doing counter+draw (which seems more likely against us in general) you can ricochet it.
Cards like electrolyze and bolt are pretty useless vs us, while we're able to push their counters or force them to lose lands to fulminator. The low point vs control is probably beast within - since you can be backed into using it on something, and they can then actually lock up the game with nothing but that 3/3 :/
I am curious if people are still playing leyline of the void in the board. My current board looks like this:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Ricocchet Trap
1 Dismember
1 Avalanche Rider (1 MD)
I brought void in vs storm once but otherwise find its not worth bothering with vs snapcaster/deathrite type decks, although I imagine its very important vs goryo reanimator if people are doing that.
Also - I tend to pop my fulminators on my own turn unless I absolutely need a blocker/threat. Is that the right play? I never know if keeping them down a land is actually relevant or if I should be holding them as possible attackers/chump blockers rather than trying to minimize my opponents land count at all costs. Its just the not knowing - if they're on 4 lands, is it worth keeping them off 5 immediately and possibly pushing them down to 3?
Both on- and off-topic at the same time, but do any of y'all Enders play on Cockatrice or just Magic Online? Since we're all (at least appearing to be) on good terms, it'd be nice to have a consistent pool of people to play/test against, whether for End reasons or not.
I'm not on MODO, but on Cockatrice (the woogerworks server) I can be found as DasNekros. If you'd be interested in playing sometime, I guess PMing would probably be the best way so as not to clog up the actual thread. We'd be able to test ideas among ourselves and not in a vacuum of anonymity, and I'm pretty sure we'd all benefit from any constructive criticism we can give each other after/during our match.
Just a thought.
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I agree that Scavenging Ooze does not mark the death of Living End competitively. However, Scavenging Ooze is substantially more dangerous than Deathrite Shaman. Scavenging Ooze is essentially the illegitimate child of Deathrite and Tarmogoyf; it kills graveyards for life like Shaman while acting as a beater like Goyf. The only upside I see is that I doubt Ooze will be used alongside Goyf (because it competes as a 2-drop and makes Goyf smaller) or Shaman (too much resource competition).
You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
I suspect Ooze decks will have enough green mana open the turn after they untap with it to really bender Living End. You're probably better off trying to catch it before they untap with it, as they're more mana-crimped, but don't count on it with no-Cascade opening hands.
I was wondering what the best sideboard/approach is to storm since it seems like it may be coming back (I believe Finkel played it recently at a GP or something?). Game one he killed me on turn 3 with nothing out but an electromancer. I even had a macabre in hand to slow him down exiling 2x manamorphose when he went for past in flames (obv he knew I had it though due to gitaxian probe). This really sucked as I had a great hand - my line was cycle carabid, then cycle wraith+recluce, then fulminator, then cycle deadshot and cascade. T4 I would have 4/5, 4/4, 3/4, 3/4 and he'd be down 2 lands... too bad I never even got a t3.
I sideboarded in a dismember, 3x leyline of void and 2x leyline of sanctity, mulled to 4 without hitting either leyline (the hands were mostly bad anyways, so it wasn't strictly fishing for leylines).
Then in g2 he goes 4 turns without doing anything... I eventually topdeck a void and play it, he just goes off anyways in 2 turns echoing truth on the leyline
But really it was the echoing truths that made me wonder if leylines are even that effective here... I'm guessing in normal games you t0 the void, and it slows him down enough that you go about your business and kill him t4/5
[edit] I guess it makes faerie macabre not work.
(If it's all Deathrites and Oozes, Slay is an option.)
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I still run two Mindbreak Traps Sideboard. Deals with Pyromancer's Ascension and Storm. Lately Storm hasn't been running Grapeshots, instead opting for Empty the Warrens - which is good for us.
Also Dismember and Beast Within. Both of which are better options, and one should be Mainboard.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
(my deck doesn't have the fetch and shocks, thus, the pale recluses. but I made a good mana base with scar lands and never got mana screwed)
Beating control is a matter of what tools you have, and how you play. Since I don't have your decklist, I'll just focus on the "how you play".
While technically, Living End is a combo deck, this is NOT the kind of combo you go balls-to-the-wall to fire as quick as possible (excluding dire circumstances). If you go turn 3 cascade into 2 blue mana open, you can expect to be blown out. Since control itself generally doesn't pose much of a threat early on, use that to your advantage. Cycle 1-2 guys a turn, use your Land D to pressure them until you can start hardcasting your guys (the look on the control player's face as you declare your hardcast of Pale Recluse or Jungle Weaver is priceless), and then if they ever tap out, that's when you hit them with The End.
Interestingly enough, Living End almost plays like a control deck itself by wiping the board at will and depleting your opponent's resources. It's the really quick aggro matches when you really want to fire off the End turn 4-5 at the latest, all other matchups generally require you to go a bit slower to succeed.
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BRGGyrus, Waker of CorpsesGRB URSaheeli, the GiftedRU WRJor Kadeen, the PrevailerRW
To add to this, it's also a great idea to suspend a Living End from your hand if you have one. This will essentially let you cast it for free (see also: without tapping lands that turn) a few turns down the road, then force them to counter it so you can cascade more comfortably. Similarly, Violent Outburst end of turn into a counter, then cascade one more once your turn rolls around.
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Modern: BRGLiving EndGRB
Legacy: UBGShardless BUGGBU
BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB
WURNarset NostalgicRUW
UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU
UBlue BraidsU
GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WBRAleshacratsBRW
UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU
URGYasova the ThreateningGRU
BGGlissa the ArticiferGB
WUSygg MerfolkUW
RSquee, Value NabobR
You guys running Slaughter Games for them? What do you target?
I got blown out by MBC last FNM. Sadistic Sacrament hurts bad. He was running the usual hand disruption + sacrament and Desecration Demons and Bloodgift Demons + Mutilate.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
4x Fulminator Mage
2x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Avalanche Riders
4x Deadshot Minotaur
4x Monstrous Carabid
4x Street Wraith
1x Twisted Abomination
2x Jungle Weaver
4x Beast Within
3x Demonic Dread
4x Violent Outburst
1x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Copperline Gorge
3x Forest
6x Mountain
6x Swamp
I do want to run the complete manabase(with the Pale Recluse included) but I'm still saving up for that, and ran into no mana issues.
The thing is, the suspending living end is a nice play and all, but experienced players know what you're trying to do, and so they get three turn to prepare for that. And he can simply let you living end(if it's in your turn) and Supreme Verdict in his.(I suffered from this)
I've made most of the decks plays, and have a good experience with it, it's my favorite deck, I'm just stating that UWR control is not on most top 8 lists for nothing, it's a strong deck that we need to think how to deal with.
2x Gnaw to the Bone
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Slaughter Pact
1x Sowing Salts
2x Ingot Chewer
2x Krosan Grip
1x Jund Charm
Boarding in two ricochets and 2 Krosan grips in the three control matches. The trap came in the matchup I won(remembering I went against THREE D: UWR)
Cards like electrolyze and bolt are pretty useless vs us, while we're able to push their counters or force them to lose lands to fulminator. The low point vs control is probably beast within - since you can be backed into using it on something, and they can then actually lock up the game with nothing but that 3/3 :/
I am curious if people are still playing leyline of the void in the board. My current board looks like this:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Ricocchet Trap
1 Dismember
1 Avalanche Rider (1 MD)
I brought void in vs storm once but otherwise find its not worth bothering with vs snapcaster/deathrite type decks, although I imagine its very important vs goryo reanimator if people are doing that.
Also - I tend to pop my fulminators on my own turn unless I absolutely need a blocker/threat. Is that the right play? I never know if keeping them down a land is actually relevant or if I should be holding them as possible attackers/chump blockers rather than trying to minimize my opponents land count at all costs. Its just the not knowing - if they're on 4 lands, is it worth keeping them off 5 immediately and possibly pushing them down to 3?
I'm not on MODO, but on Cockatrice (the woogerworks server) I can be found as DasNekros. If you'd be interested in playing sometime, I guess PMing would probably be the best way so as not to clog up the actual thread. We'd be able to test ideas among ourselves and not in a vacuum of anonymity, and I'm pretty sure we'd all benefit from any constructive criticism we can give each other after/during our match.
Just a thought.
xMage: Jankmaster
Commander - Now Playing
WUBSen Triplets - "If you shake my hand, better count your fingersBUW RHomura, Human AscendantR RGBorborygmos EnragedGR URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
Commander - Still Brewing
BRGGyrus, Waker of CorpsesGRB URSaheeli, the GiftedRU WRJor Kadeen, the PrevailerRW