You say the card has an outrageous mana cost at 5 cmc, even though it appears you have never even played with or against the card. I would say you need to see it in action before you simply brush it off as unplayable.
Now if I won because I cast it, it does not mean one of three things that you assumed.
1. I was not playing against a sub-par deck. Echoes beats half of the established decks in the format. I've already given several examples, which you seem to have overlooked.
2. People don't have to have bad draws for milling to win. No deck is guaranteed to win with a good hand. In fact, I see people with good hands who lose because they get outplayed on a regular basis.
3. Just because someone loses does not mean that they were playing poorly. There are games where you can play everything right, and still lose.
And you never saw Haunting Echoes in the only Milling deck with placements in the last 5 years, because the only one that was good enough in a single format was TwinSanity (Twincast + Sanity Grinding), which Haunting Echoes has poor synergy with.
The problem with Mill in Modern isn't the card choices, but rather that the strategy is poor against several decks. Tron, Dredgevine, Unburial Rights, etc... all capitalize off of, or care less about the milling strategy.
I have played with it in decks before, and in casual multiplayer its quite fun to cast. In the competitive scene, it has no place.
Obviously we have different opinions on the matter, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Mill is quite niche due to the fact that (as you stated) it is in a poor place at the moment against many many decks. I wish you luck in your endeavors and your quirky build.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I think Haunting Echoes is a really cool card too, but the fact of the matter is that it is too slow. Your deck has no acceleration so it's not hitting before turn 5, and if you haven't milled them out by then your in trouble. No matter what deck your playing against, let alone if it's fast aggro.
As to the person who was lamenting the fact that decks who utilize their graveyard to win is a reason to not play this deck: Crypt Incursion
This card is amazing not only as a GY answer to Dredgevine, Living End etc. but also as a foil to aggro in the form of lifegain. I don't play any offensive creatures or any removal MD and this card has turned games for me big time.
I also think some discard package is a must in this deck, especially in this meta. Scapeshift is everywhere and the combination of 6 X discard spells and 4 X Surgical Extraction is devastating for them.
I also can't say enough about how great Deathrite Shaman is in this deck. The lifegain is great, and using him to ramp into stuff turn 2 is awesome.
Keep the conversation up!
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"A prince must imitate the Fox and the Lion, for the Lion cannot protect himself from traps and the Fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a Fox to recognize traps, and a Lion to frighten wolves." -- Machiavelli
I had for Inquisitions in, but I'm not sure if they were needed. Not sure what I'm lacking. I wanted to go for like a mill control. Not sure if Breaking // Entering was needed. Gimme all your ideas!
I had for Inquisitions in, but I'm not sure if they were needed. Not sure what I'm lacking. I wanted to go for like a mill control. Not sure if Breaking // Entering was needed. Gimme all your ideas!
Personally, not a fan of permission in these builds. I like either discard or removal MD. I've opted for discard in the MD in my list, 4 X Inquisition of Kozilek and 2 X Thoughtsieze, with plenty of removal SB. Just a matter of preference. Turn 1 Thoughtsieze into Surgical Extraction against Scapeshift is pretty backbreaking...
"A prince must imitate the Fox and the Lion, for the Lion cannot protect himself from traps and the Fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a Fox to recognize traps, and a Lion to frighten wolves." -- Machiavelli
Me and a buddy were talking about this concept before, and I've considered playing this next season at PTQ's. One thing we have agreed upon is that Mill is just like burn, except here your lightning bolt hits for 7-10(mind sculpt/breaking/glimpse). Only I've noticed in most of these builds is that they aren't curving out at like 3, but instead more like 4-5, which is way too slow for the format. It needs to be more focused power. The only control element I'd think playing in this deck is Pyroclasm for those super aggro decks.
Me and a buddy were talking about this concept before, and I've considered playing this next season at PTQ's. One thing we have agreed upon is that Mill is just like burn, except here your lightning bolt hits for 7-10(mind sculpt/breaking/glimpse). Only I've noticed in most of these builds is that they aren't curving out at like 3, but instead more like 4-5, which is way too slow for the format. It needs to be more focused power. The only control element I'd think playing in this deck is Pyroclasm for those super aggro decks.
I don't run red, so Infest works for me. I can't help but think Ensnaring Bridge would be awesome too. I would love to test with it.
Only I've noticed in most of these builds is that they aren't curving out at like 3, but instead more like 4-5, which is way too slow for the format.
Nothing in my deck costs more than 2, unless you count the casting cost of actually hard casting Archive Trap. I agree, this deck needs to be like a burn deck and be really fast.
I can also say that after game 1 traps SUCK... the opponent never searches after I ghost quarter a land OR path a creature....
I hear ya! But the way I look at it, my GQ's turn in to Strip Mine's when they adopt this strategy!!
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"A prince must imitate the Fox and the Lion, for the Lion cannot protect himself from traps and the Fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a Fox to recognize traps, and a Lion to frighten wolves." -- Machiavelli
ensnaring bridge seems like a really juicy idea, but it does mean you have to pace yourself a little. I like it personally, against aggro and combo you just wait them out, and against a control deck, you probably just board them out for more stuff.
The only downfall with Ensnaring Bridge is that it's s o easy to get rid of. Whereas Infest or Damnation is much harder for the typical aggro deck to handle.
The thing I am challenged with the most, and continues to be a work in progress is the SB. I have a tendency to wanna SB for every deck, and that's just not possible. Trying to narrow it down to the best 15 for my colors.
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"A prince must imitate the Fox and the Lion, for the Lion cannot protect himself from traps and the Fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a Fox to recognize traps, and a Lion to frighten wolves." -- Machiavelli
As I see it Ensnaring Bridge is a worse card than both Infest and Damnation in far too many matchups. Exalted, Bloodrush, Tokens and Elf Beatdown can all play around Ensnaring Bridge, but they have to commit for that. A turn 3 Infest or a turn 4 Damnation against any creature based deck will most likely give you enough time to mill those pesky last 20 cards or so.
I'll post the list I'm using as soon as I get home.
I like your list a lot. It seems really well thought out and with definite purpose. I can't determine if Mesmeric Orb is better than Hedron Crab. I also really like Deathrite Shaman, if for no other reason than the ramp.
Do you find 20 lands problematic at all? Especially with Damnation? Really like the board though. Can you give a match up analysis, specifically what you board in and out? I'm having a hell of a time with Eldrazi, even post board. Also, do you feel Black Sun's Zenith is better than Infest?
Well, that was quite the outburst of random questions! Hope it made sense.
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"A prince must imitate the Fox and the Lion, for the Lion cannot protect himself from traps and the Fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a Fox to recognize traps, and a Lion to frighten wolves." -- Machiavelli
In the front page it says you can cast archive trap after surgicaling or extirpating an opponent, but I think it's wrong: it's you who searches your opponent's library for the remaining copies of the chosen card.
Maybe that should be fixed so no one makes this mistake at a tournament!!
In the front page it says you can cast archive trap after surgicaling or extirpating an opponent, but I think it's wrong: it's you who searches your opponent's library for the remaining copies of the chosen card.
Maybe that should be fixed so no one makes this mistake at a tournament!!
That is correct. Surgical does not trigger Archive Trap
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"A prince must imitate the Fox and the Lion, for the Lion cannot protect himself from traps and the Fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a Fox to recognize traps, and a Lion to frighten wolves." -- Machiavelli
Me and a buddy were talking about this concept before, and I've considered playing this next season at PTQ's. One thing we have agreed upon is that Mill is just like burn, except here your lightning bolt hits for 7-10(mind sculpt/breaking/glimpse). Only I've noticed in most of these builds is that they aren't curving out at like 3, but instead more like 4-5, which is way too slow for the format. It needs to be more focused power. The only control element I'd think playing in this deck is Pyroclasm for those super aggro decks.
You have to realize that Lightning Bolt hits for about 1/7 of their life and 7-10 is 1/7 of their library so..... really they're equivalent.
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Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
You have to realize that Lightning Bolt hits for about 1/7 of their life and 7-10 is 1/7 of their library so..... really they're equivalent.
Lightning bolt costs 1 mana and can kill creatures. Glimpse turns on your opponent's graveyard, costs and extra mana, and can't kill creatures. There is a big difference.
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Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
Been through a few variations of UB Mill now and this one is by far the most powerful. Lots of fun to play. Anyone have any input as to what direction he's heading in with this SB?
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"A prince must imitate the Fox and the Lion, for the Lion cannot protect himself from traps and the Fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a Fox to recognize traps, and a Lion to frighten wolves." -- Machiavelli
Been through a few variations of UB Mill now and this one is by far the most powerful. Lots of fun to play. Anyone have any input as to what direction he's heading in with this SB?
As a huge mill fan since the original Millstone, I've been looking at this deck list. I like the interactions going on in here. My one problem with it is that I still don't see how you hang on with a bad hand (or a mediocre mull, say). No white splash for PtE? No Dismember? No BSZ? The sideboard has a single Engineered Explosives, Slaughter Pact, and Illness in the Ranks? Seems *very* meta dependant. The Leyline is good, b/c without it we just feed GY based decks.
As a huge mill fan since the original Millstone, I've been looking at this deck list. I like the interactions going on in here. My one problem with it is that I still don't see how you hang on with a bad hand (or a mediocre mull, say). No white splash for PtE? No Dismember? No BSZ? The sideboard has a single Engineered Explosives, Slaughter Pact, and Illness in the Ranks? Seems *very* meta dependant. The Leyline is good, b/c without it we just feed GY based decks.
I had the same concerns at first, but this deck Mills so fast that all the removal is really not necessary. The Crypt Incursions really help out alot. I'm not really sure what the strategy is behind Slaughter Pact. Would like to learn more about that.
Shelldock Isle is amazing. Especially when it hides an Archive Trap. Can't tell you how many games I've finished off that way.
I wanna add more discard to the board as counters can get annoying. They are by no means gg, but just annoying. Defense Grid also came to mind but doesn't play well with all my instants. I've also considered Dispel.
All in all, really loving the deck and think it's for real. Hope the discussion continues
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"A prince must imitate the Fox and the Lion, for the Lion cannot protect himself from traps and the Fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a Fox to recognize traps, and a Lion to frighten wolves." -- Machiavelli
I've been playing this for about a week now. It's tons of fun and rarely has a bad match up. The slaughter pacts are in for your splinter twin match ups. When they try and tap out at the end of 3 or 4 for exarch or Kiki it gets them.
Crypt incursion is an amazing card. I'm currently running 3 and think I need to bump it to 4. My SB is a bit different. I'm running jace's phantasm in case I do need to be a bit more agro. He can be a 5/5 by turn 1 or 2.
Thinking I may -1 Mind Funeral and +1 Surgical Extraction, or +1 BSZ or +1 Ravenous Trap.
I've never felt that Mind Funeral was a 4-of in any mill deck, the stats on it just don't ever add up for me. Every time I get one off, the most I ever mill for is 7 or 8 it seems.
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currently playing Modern: U tron WG boggles EDH: GW saffi ericksdotter
Thinking I may -1 Mind Funeral and +1 Surgical Extraction, or +1 BSZ or +1 Ravenous Trap.
I've never felt that Mind Funeral was a 4-of in any mill deck, the stats on it just don't ever add up for me. Every time I get one off, the most I ever mill for is 7 or 8 it seems.
I have played with it in decks before, and in casual multiplayer its quite fun to cast. In the competitive scene, it has no place.
Obviously we have different opinions on the matter, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Mill is quite niche due to the fact that (as you stated) it is in a poor place at the moment against many many decks. I wish you luck in your endeavors and your quirky build.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
As to the person who was lamenting the fact that decks who utilize their graveyard to win is a reason to not play this deck: Crypt Incursion
This card is amazing not only as a GY answer to Dredgevine, Living End etc. but also as a foil to aggro in the form of lifegain. I don't play any offensive creatures or any removal MD and this card has turned games for me big time.
I also think some discard package is a must in this deck, especially in this meta. Scapeshift is everywhere and the combination of 6 X discard spells and 4 X Surgical Extraction is devastating for them.
I also can't say enough about how great Deathrite Shaman is in this deck. The lifegain is great, and using him to ramp into stuff turn 2 is awesome.
Keep the conversation up!
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Mind Funeral
4 Breaking // Entering
2 Increasing Confusion
4 Archive Trap
4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
4 Drowned Catacombs
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Steam Vents
2 Bojuka Bog
I had for Inquisitions in, but I'm not sure if they were needed. Not sure what I'm lacking. I wanted to go for like a mill control. Not sure if Breaking // Entering was needed. Gimme all your ideas!
Personally, not a fan of permission in these builds. I like either discard or removal MD. I've opted for discard in the MD in my list, 4 X Inquisition of Kozilek and 2 X Thoughtsieze, with plenty of removal SB. Just a matter of preference. Turn 1 Thoughtsieze into Surgical Extraction against Scapeshift is pretty backbreaking...
I also feel Visions of Beyond is a must. Amazing card draw
GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainWGB
URJhoira of the GhituRU
UWGeist of Saint TraftWU
BUOona, Queen of the FaeUB
I don't run red, so Infest works for me. I can't help but think Ensnaring Bridge would be awesome too. I would love to test with it.
Nothing in my deck costs more than 2, unless you count the casting cost of actually hard casting Archive Trap. I agree, this deck needs to be like a burn deck and be really fast.
I hear ya! But the way I look at it, my GQ's turn in to Strip Mine's when they adopt this strategy!!
GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainWGB
URJhoira of the GhituRU
UWGeist of Saint TraftWU
BUOona, Queen of the FaeUB
The thing I am challenged with the most, and continues to be a work in progress is the SB. I have a tendency to wanna SB for every deck, and that's just not possible. Trying to narrow it down to the best 15 for my colors.
I like your list a lot. It seems really well thought out and with definite purpose. I can't determine if Mesmeric Orb is better than Hedron Crab. I also really like Deathrite Shaman, if for no other reason than the ramp.
Do you find 20 lands problematic at all? Especially with Damnation? Really like the board though. Can you give a match up analysis, specifically what you board in and out? I'm having a hell of a time with Eldrazi, even post board. Also, do you feel Black Sun's Zenith is better than Infest?
Well, that was quite the outburst of random questions! Hope it made sense.
Maybe that should be fixed so no one makes this mistake at a tournament!!
That is correct. Surgical does not trigger Archive Trap
You have to realize that Lightning Bolt hits for about 1/7 of their life and 7-10 is 1/7 of their library so..... really they're equivalent.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Lightning bolt costs 1 mana and can kill creatures. Glimpse turns on your opponent's graveyard, costs and extra mana, and can't kill creatures. There is a big difference.
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Shelldock Isle
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Creatures
3 Augur of Bolas
4 Hedron Crab
4 Archive Trap
3 Breaking/Entering
4 Crypt Incursion
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Mesmeric Orb
4 Mind Funeral
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thought Scour
4 Visions of Beyond
2 Echoing Truth
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Illness in the Ranks
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Pact
Been through a few variations of UB Mill now and this one is by far the most powerful. Lots of fun to play. Anyone have any input as to what direction he's heading in with this SB?
As a huge mill fan since the original Millstone, I've been looking at this deck list. I like the interactions going on in here. My one problem with it is that I still don't see how you hang on with a bad hand (or a mediocre mull, say). No white splash for PtE? No Dismember? No BSZ? The sideboard has a single Engineered Explosives, Slaughter Pact, and Illness in the Ranks? Seems *very* meta dependant. The Leyline is good, b/c without it we just feed GY based decks.
I'm tempted to -1 Mind Funeral, -1 Crypt Incursion for +2 Dismember, or something like that. Not sure how to change it up.
But I think this is going the right way.
Modern: U tron WG boggles
EDH: GW saffi ericksdotter
I had the same concerns at first, but this deck Mills so fast that all the removal is really not necessary. The Crypt Incursions really help out alot. I'm not really sure what the strategy is behind Slaughter Pact. Would like to learn more about that.
Shelldock Isle is amazing. Especially when it hides an Archive Trap. Can't tell you how many games I've finished off that way.
I wanna add more discard to the board as counters can get annoying. They are by no means gg, but just annoying. Defense Grid also came to mind but doesn't play well with all my instants. I've also considered Dispel.
All in all, really loving the deck and think it's for real. Hope the discussion continues
Crypt incursion is an amazing card. I'm currently running 3 and think I need to bump it to 4. My SB is a bit different. I'm running jace's phantasm in case I do need to be a bit more agro. He can be a 5/5 by turn 1 or 2.
Thinking I may -1 Mind Funeral and +1 Surgical Extraction, or +1 BSZ or +1 Ravenous Trap.
I've never felt that Mind Funeral was a 4-of in any mill deck, the stats on it just don't ever add up for me. Every time I get one off, the most I ever mill for is 7 or 8 it seems.
Modern: U tron WG boggles
EDH: GW saffi ericksdotter
I don't run Mind Funeral, Mind Sculpt mills around the same amount of cards and cots less.
I tried to make a pure mill deck, but I like my version, Kill Mill, better. It uses the graveyard as a resource instead of as the primary win conditions, using mill to make Visions of Beyond more powerful, boost Wight Of Precinct Six, Jace's Phantasm, and Tarmogoyf, provide fuel for Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze, allow me to disrupt combos with Surgical Extraction and Extirpate, or allow me to kill instantly with Bloodchief Ascension.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.